Someone else has to have already done something like this, but here’s my version of the ebola virus and the creation painting by Michelangelo. When reality is contrasted to what many theists claim.
Not So Polite Dinner Converation – nothing says divine love like deadly diseases
Published
Club Schadenfreude 
The book of Job already has this one covered.
Say, how many thousands of years ago was that and atheists still haven’t caught up with current events.
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Hey, SOM, nice to see you back. So, are you going to answer the questions you’ve been asked, or are you going to run from them again?
The book of Job is one of my favorites in the bible. We have a god making a bet with its archenemy, and allowing the murder of a man’s family to win said bet. We also have this god admit it was wrong and trying to buy forgiveness by replacing said family and giving money. We have this entity whining that no one should question it because it’s really powerful and we get to see this entity show that the authors of the book had no idea on how the world actually works e.g. warehouses of hail. Yep, there are magical buildings with weather in them.
I wonder, SOM, would you accept a new family from the entity that allowed your family to be murdered? I certainly would not. In this instance, your god is no more than a mafia don trying to cover its mistakes.
But please, do tell us how the book of Job “has this one covered.” Or are you just slinging more shit at the wall and hoping some of it sticks as usual? I’m suspecting that you have no idea how it “has this one covered.” and are just hoping someone else can fill in the blanks for you.
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Freude,
What questions are asking?
If they are pertinent, I will surely answer them.
If they are the usual atheist sophistry, I’ll leave them be.
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you are quite a liar. All of those questions you’ve ignored when you’ve come here before. As always, dear SOM, you try to pick and choose questions as much as you pick and choose your bible. As the coward you are, you will decide not to answer any questions that are difficult.
I’ll post the questions you’ve intentionally ignored in a bit, but let’s stay with the most recent ones. How does the book of Job “have this covered”?
The story is of a man who is tormented by a god and its archenemy for the intention of winning a bet. This man’s family was murdered thanks to this god’s need to win a wager. We have this man, Job, asking why he is being mistreated. God response with the usual arrogant bluster of a bully, saying what right does Job have to ask why this god is allowing him to suffer with no purpose. Job has quite a lot of right to do so, being treated as a pawn in a game.
Now, again, please tell me how the book of Job has the problem of evil covered?
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Freude,
I’ll do my best. Since one need be irrational to be an atheist it’s hard for people like me to fish out the coherent portions of your side of the conversation.
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Please do indeed do your best. Also, please do demonstrate how I am supposedly “irrational”, SOM. We do need some evidence for this claim and all of the others you have made.
Certainly, if you think it is irrational to be an atheist, please tell me how and why. I would also ask you to tell us how it is irrational to be a believer of any other religion. This would of course require evidence for your god and its existence. You haven’t been able to give it so far. I hope you can now.
I do enjoy watching someone who purports to follow the laws of the bible, including the one against bearing false witness, intentionally lie about me repeatedly. There is nothing incoherent about my posts. It is great to watch you make that excuse again and again though.
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Let’s look at the questions you’ve run from right here https://clubschadenfreude.com/2014/09/01/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-the-altar-challenge-will-bill-keller-take-the-challenge-he-offered-to-a-muslim/#comment-3788
“Hey, SOM, haven’t seen you since July. In that episode, we have you running away from questions asked of you and requests for evidence for your claims. I’m still waiting, SOM, show us that the AFA is a “proven train wreck”. Answer this please since it’s been asked of you: “Now, I do wonder, SOM, what would you do if your employer said you couldn’t do something outside of work because of *their* religious beliefs?” and “What if you employer was Muslim, and thought sharia law was just peachy? Would you say it’s okay for them to try to control you or any other employee?” How about these too: “The lovely folks at Hobby Lobby depend on other people breaking the Sabbath to make their products and to get their products to them. Now where are they complaining about that, SOM? Why aren’t they killing those people since that is what God commands? Is it too inconvenient? Darn. Isn’t it just fabulous on how TrueChristians pick and choose what to be so concerned about?” Or this “The government makes businesses pay for insurance. I’m sure you have some of that insurance. Should your employer be able to tell you what medical treatment you can have?
But let’s address what you are claiming now. It’s so great to see such a TrueChristian coming slinking back thinking that no one will remember he ran away. And coming back with baseless personal attacks as usual. How nostalgic. Provincial? I used to live in a rural area. Not so much now. I’m certainly not restricted in only being interested in local matters. Perhaps another word would fit better, rather than ones you pick because you think they are so insulting.
Provincial ridicule? Nope, just the exposure of a liar, SOM. I could have had a great time using ridicule on this twit but it wasn’t needed at all. I only needed what he said to show he was a liar.
You claim that JC had “thousands of witnesses”. That is not true. We have the bible’s claims and nothing to support them. You may try to offer evidence for your claim. I know many, if not all of the nonsense Christians claim and they fail. We have claims of thousands of people meeting JC just outside of Jerusalem, an occupied city. No one noticed a legion’s worth of men outside of a occupied city? Now why is that? And I do love how Christians want to, on one hand, pretend that JC was known by everyone, but when it’s pointed out that there is no evidence for this, then they claim that why should Rome be interested in such an unimportant man. It would help if TrueChristians could agree on what story they wanted to tell.
We even have Christians who can’t agree on when this magical man was born, where he was born, and what he meant when he supposedly told stories. We do have historical references to Christians, not Christ. If you want to claim references to Christians as evidence, then we have plenty of evidence of the existence of all sorts of gods, including Allah. I always get to see claims of how the numbers of Christianity are evidence for how “right” Christians are, but you only get big numbers if you count every possible adherent to Christ. When you don’t want to do that, then you whine how such and such sect aren’t “real Christians” and oh woe is you on how you are such a persecuted “minority”.
I do love how you are so ignorant of your own religion and others that you imagine that your religion is so much better. In Christianity, we have a bunch of unknown authors who make baseless claims about a messiah that has no evidence. Indeed, to use your words, what a bunch of “scheisters” who can’t agree if Jesus was so human like he wept in the garden, or if he didn’t and had no problem with going to the cross. We have no evidence that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, ever existed. No more than we have evidence that Mo rode to Jerusalem on a magic pony and took dictation from an angel. At best, one may postulate one itinerant rabbi who wandered around professing to be the messiah as many did at that time, and who had a lot of myths associated with them. Myths that have no basis in fact. Now, if you want to tell me that you worship an everyday Jew who thought he was magical, that’s great. Are you willing to do this?
So, again, SOM, you are shown to be a liar and your argument false. But please do tell me what this “radically obvious difference between the Christian West and those area under the boot of the Jihad”. Or is this going to be one of those claims that you hope others will fill in for you, more of your shit that you throw at a wall and hope some sticks?
You also are a liar when you claim historians “love” the Christians of the Middle Ages. No, SOM, literacy did not follow Christianity in the Middle Ages. It stayed locked up in the monasteries and churches, where the church said that no one should be able to read the bible on their own. It took the ridiculousness of Henry VIII and the Papacy to get the bible into the hands of the people, a murder and more murderers insisting that each knew what their god “really” meant. We have Christians destroying books, SOM. We have them writing over ancient treatises with their repetitive prayers to a god that does nothing. We have them killing a librarian and destroying the Library of Alexandria.
Try again, SOM. Your lies are worthless here. But they are fun to watch because it shows you have no more belief in your god than I do because you have no problem ignoring its laws.”
I do enjoy the internet and forums. I can do a quick search and have evidence of everything falsely claimed by you.
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Freude,
That ObamaCare is a trainwreck is in the news every day it seems.
For example, Obama lied when he said, “If you like your plan you can keep your plan. If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor.”
He repeated that lie over 30 times.
Obama also lied when he said ObamaCare would reduce the cost of healthcare.
Here is a link to a recent article at the DailyKoz, a leftist, pro-Obama news site:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/10/19/1337740/-Inadequate-Obamacare-plans-continue-to-force-patients-to-delay-care-endure-crippling-debt#
Also, Healthcare.gov is a documented financial, informational, and user unfriendly boondoggle.
That’s been in the news too, now going on 2 years.
It is not required that common knowledge be cited.
If you are so uninformed about ObamaCare please don’t blame me.
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wow, the dailykos? Shucks, SOM, I just can’t ignore something that has nothing to support it. How can I go against someone who can only go by “James321” and it’s a blog post! But if we actually read the post, it says that Obamacare doesn’t go far enough, something that you have repeatedly said it goes too far. Now, if I consider the ACA, I have my own story to tell. I can get health care easier, and the health care I want. As always, SOM, you try to tell a lie hoping that no one will actually read your nonsense and then are shown to be a worse liar when someone reads the source material that you obviously didn’t in your desperation. Yep, deductibles are high. They are lower than having to pay for care out of pocket entirely. Would you rather pay $1300 or $130,000, SOM? There is no punishing of people in rural areas either, SOM. Doctors don’t like to work there, not because of the ACA but because they can’t charge what they want. It is the same reason that most people who go to be doctors don’t want to be family practitioners, their student loans can’t be paid off with what a FP makes, rather than say a plastic surgeon or oncologist. Doctors aren’t required to take what the gov’t gives. It is not the ACA, but the doctors own choices. It’s so wonderful to see you use an article that doesn’t support your viewpoint at all, you claim that the ACA is a failure because it was enacted. The article says it doesn’t go far enough. Way to go, SOM!
again, evidence, SOM, not hearsay. Show me this documentation that you supposedly have that the ACA is a “documented, financial, informational and user unfriendly boondoggle.” Your claims are not “common knowledge” since not everyone agrees with you. Thanks so much for showing again that you again have only excuses and no evidence.
I am not uninformed. I am informed and thus know that you are lying.
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Fruede,
You asked for evidence. I gave it to you and in true atheist fashion you just denied it because it doesn’t fit your worldview.
People of reason change their worldview when the evidence indicates a change is necessary.
Also, do you us ObamaCare?
I don’t because I don’t want all my personal medical history in a government database.
That is another reason why ObamaCare is a trainwreck.
ObamaCare can be used by the government to destroy any opposition by leaking the medical records of the people who compose the opposition.
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No, SOM, I’m asking for evidence, not a blog post by someone who used articles that say that the have no stats for the claims made. Evidence is that which can be confirmed independently. The blog post you claimed as an “article” makes the argument that the ACA doesn’t go far enough but that isn’t the “trainwreck” you claimed was happening, was it, SOM? No, you were trying to claim that it should never have been implemented at all. But if you want to claim blog posts are true no matter what, that’s fine by me. It surely makes my posts much more important, doesn’t it? Your claims have nothing to support them. That’s what evidence is.
I use the ACA. You see, SOM, it’s not just the insurance part. It also guarantees me access to the healthcare I choose. Thanks for confirming that you have no idea what “ObamaCare” or the ACA actually is. It’s hilarious that you somehow think that all of your medical history will somehow magically appear in a “government database”. Now, where does the legislation say that, SOM? Hmmmm? Yep, where’s the evidence that this could possibly happen, SOM?
And please do tell me how opposition can be destroyed by someone knowing their medical records? Would someone be shunned if they had a certain disease? You know, like how conservative Christians tried to do when AIDS first became known? 🙂
Again, evidence please, SOM. But as usual, you can’t provide it just like every other conspiracy theorist. You are as hilarious as Grigori Tsoukalos, and his “ancient alien” claims.
But back to the original argument, show me how the book of Job takes care of things. Or can’t you?
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Let’s look at some quotes that the blog post didn’t mention
“The result is that some people — no firm data exists on how many — say they hesitate to use their new insurance because of the high out-of-pocket costs.”
so, how many? We have no idea.
And lower premiums mean higher deductibles, that happens with all insurance and that’s what these people chose ““They will cause some people to not get care they should get,” Katherine Hempstead, who directs research on health insurance coverage at the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, said of high-deductible marketplace plans. “Unfortunately, the people who are attracted to the lower premiums tend to be the ones who are going to have the most trouble coming up with all the cost-sharing if in fact they want to use their health insurance.” It’s playing the odds. But let me ask you, SOM: What would you prefer: someone who has no insurance and you had to pay for their care as you do now when someone doesn’t have insurance and a hospital must give them care or throw them out onto the street? Or would you prefer them to have some insurance and not require you to pay for them in higher costs to you? The insurance company offer plans, and they are those who responsible for having limited networks, not the ACA. Again, SOM, do you want to foot the bill entirely or expect someone to have insurance for themselves?
Here are more questions for you to answer. I suspsect you won’t because that will show you to not be the Christian or the conservative you have claimed to be.
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Freude,
Another thing that ObamaCare is doing is reducing the work week to 29 hours.
Over thirty hours and employers are caught holding the bag for ObamaCare insurance.
Recently Walmart, an ObamaCare supporter, reduced the work week for most of its employees and then cut off the health benefits that they had, up till ObamaCare, provided.
It is reasonable that when ObamaCare raises the cost of doing business, the result is massive unemployment.
92,000,000 million Americans have left the workforce and ObamaCare is keeping them away.
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Why yes, Walmart, cut insurance for its workers intentionally. You claim that Walmart supported Obamacare. It did indeed, it called for employers being mandated to supply health insurance to workers. You can see exactly what they said here: http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/walmart_letter_063009t.pdf Then we have an article (a real one) that shows that Walmart hiring full timers: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-26/customers-flee-wal-mart-empty-shelves-for-target-costco.html and And then it turned around and removed their employees insurance from all people *under* 30 hours. This has nothing to do with the ACA, because it never required health insurance for those people in the first place. Now, who made the choice to screw its employees? Walmart did, and no one forced it to do so, unless you want to blame the insurance companies (http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/07/news/economy/walmart-health-benefits/) . Again, it seems you have never actually read the legislation to know what it does.
Again, SOM, are you okay with footing the entire medical bill of someone who doesn’t have any insurance or would you want them to have something covered things so you weren’t left holding the bag?
We also need evidence for your “92,000,000 million Americans” leaving the workforce. This is hilarious since with your claim this would mean the US has a unemployment percentage of around 30%. funny because I know that the unemployment percentage for Pennsylvania just dropped to around 5.8%.
Again, you are caught in lies, be they intentional or from your willful ignorance.
And please continue with your claim that the book of Job somehow “covers it” when it comes to the problem of your god creating deadly diseases.
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Freude,
Walmart is using ObamaCare to force its competitors out of business.
President Obama is using his economic policies to empower corporations and drive the little guys out of business.
In the free market, small business is the engine of growth.
In the Obama market, only those fat cats who can afford Washington lobbiest prosper.
President Obama pumped 1 trillion dollars into Wall Street to make it look like his terrible policies were working.
All that free funny money was given to bankers who invested it in the stock market.
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You claim that Walmart is using Obamacare to force its competitors out of business. Any evidence to support this claim that you harvested from the internet? How many businesses have gone out of business because of the ACA? Surely you have names and places and just how the ACA put them out of business, right? And just how does this support your claim that “ObamaCare” is a “trainwreck”?
It’s hilarious to see you change your position. But it’s expected from you.
It’s also great to see you wander off into more baseless claims. You do know that the problems on Wall Street were in play long before Obama even got into office, right? Or do you want to try to support the claim that somehow Obama was entirely responsible for the crash when he wasn’t in office for more than a year before working on it?
Again, still waiting for your support of your claim how the book of Job somehow handles the problem of your god creating deadly diseases.
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Freude,
It’s just business.
And fundamental to business is common sense.
Again, you are asking me to cite sources for that which is common knowledge.
You need to get out more and see what’s really happening in the world.
I have studied economics and political philosophy at the graduate level so it is very easy for me to understand what is going on even without the constant bombardment of bad news from media.
Did you know that a crowd walked out on President Obama over the weekend?
And he was in the Democrat strong hold of Maryland.
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Yep, I’m asking you to cite sources for what you claim is “common knowledge” and which you cannot demonstrate to be. Nice dodge though, this new “common knowledge” nonsense. However, it doesn’t work when something isn’t common knowledge.
I do know what is really happening in the world. That’s how I know you are a liar in so many things, SOM. I can point out evidence that shows your claims are wrong. And nice appeal to authority there, SOM. Completely unsubstantiated claim on how well you understand what’s going on, which is quite hilarious considering you have no knowledge of what the ACA/ObamaCare entails. Alas, your ignorance betrays your claims of how smart you are.
Nice that you make another claim and of course don’t substantiate it with location and day. Now, let me do so. People left an event while Obama was speaking in Maryland on Sunday, October 19. Now, how does this relate to your claims of the ACA being a “trainwreck”, SOM? It’s great to watch you revert to your conservative nonsense after trying to use liberal arguments about the ACA. Desperation does make your actions quite amazing to watch. Do you want to be a liberal or a conservative, SOM? If you want to attack the ACA for not going far enough, it’s great that you use liberal arguments to do so. But if you are trying to claim that the ACA never should have been done, saying it doesn’t go far enough doesn’t work real well.
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Freude,
I have kindly avoided telling you that you suffer from malignant ignorance.
There is nothing I can do about that.
Malignant ignorance if fatal and has no cure.
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Please show your evidence of this claim, SOM. Define this “malignant ignorance” that you accuse me of.
It seems that, unable to provide evidence for your claims, you have been reduced to making baseless personal attacks.
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Freude,
You claim you have evidence that I am wrong, you don’t live up to the very standard that you are requiring of me.
Namely, cite a source.
In the bizz that’s called hypocrisy.
Why not act like a Christian and practice what you preach.
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I have provided sources, SOM. You see those links that I provided to the blog post you cited as an article and the original source that the blog post used, that is evidence. However, if you’d like more evidence, here you go:
a link to the text of the ACA so you can see that there is nothing in it that supports your fantasy that your medical records will be on some government database: http://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/rights/law/index.html
A link to the Book of Job that anyone can see that your claim it somehow handles the problem of a god creating deadly diseases is wrong: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+1&version=NIV And here, people can choose from many different interpretations of the bible to find the one they prefer.
A link to success stories about the ACA, showing your claim that it is a “trainwreck” is false: http://articles.latimes.com/2013/nov/25/business/la-fi-mh-obamacare-success-20131125 and of course I offered my own experience that the ACA allows me to get the health care I want, which also shows that your claims of utter disaster are wrong. It’s also been hilarious to watch you run from your conservative nonsense since it fails to support your claim and go to liberal claims of the ACA not going far enough in your desperation to support your claim that the ACA is a “trainwreck”.
You have also made claims like: “Walmart is using ObamaCare to force its competitors out of business. President Obama is using his economic policies to empower corporations and drive the little guys out of business.”
And as usual, cannot provide evidence that your positive claims are true when I ask for it. Still waiting, SOM.
I do love your last bit: “Why not act like a Christian and practice what you preach.” You mean, how you preach that one should follow the laws of this god, and then proceed to lie about me, SOM, breaking the commandment against bearing false witness “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.? (I wonder, will you claim me not your “neighbor”” ) You can also refer to Psalms too for more on lying, if you consider your bible a good source of moral recommendation: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+1&version=KJV
As you can see, I have practiced what I preached, citing sources, all through this exchange. It is you who have been trying to claim I have not. It’s amazing how you think if you say something it makes reality change, SOM. I do like having a written medium so anyone can see what has transpired.
And I’m still waiting for you to show how you can show “The book of Job already has this one covered.: when it comes to the problem of your god creating deadly diseases. I am waiting for you to show how I am irrational. Lots and lots of claims from you and still no evidence to support them. It always goes this way with you, SOM. You make claims, get caught in your lies and then you run away, only to reappear to make more baseless claims and fail again.
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Freude,
The book of Job answers the question about God creating terrible diseases.
So does the theory of Evolution which explains one of the necessary factors involved in all of life.
But of course, the atheist rejects reason (otherwise you would have read the book of Job yourself instead of relying on your list of atheist talking points.) and science.
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Ah, finally you address why the book of job relates to a god creating deadly diseases. You of course don’t tell us how, you just repeat again that it does. Again, SOM, the book of Job doesn’t mention deadly diseases or why a god would create them.
And how does the theory of evolution answer the question about your god creating deadly diseases? What is this “one of the necessary factors involved in all life”? In that I know you are amazingly ignorant about evolutionary theory, I want to see what you have to say about this, SOM.
I have read the book of Job, at least twice and piecemeal more than that. Thank you, SOM, for lying again. I know it doesn’t do what you say but I am willing to have you explain what you are claiming. But at this point, we still have nothing but vague claims. What verses answer the question about your god creating terrible diseases? Please also show how I reject science. It’s nice to see your little accusations but you cannot support them at all, making them nothing more than lies as usual.
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Freude,
Of course I can tell you how the book of Job relates to your topic of deadly diseases.
But wouldn’t it be better if you read Job for yourself instead of having someone spoon feed you.
Atheists need to learn to think for themselves go where they have never gone before, ie actually learn something.
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Wow, SOM, it’s great to see yet again you presenting an excuse and a lie to avoid having to support your claims. Unfortunately for you, I have read Job, as I have said, twice and some piecemeal. Your claim depends on your lie that I have not. Now, how does this work with your god saying that it hates lies and liars? If you can prove I have not read the book of Job, please do so. I wonder, will your “proof” consist of saying that since I don’t agree with you, I haven’t read it?
I make a positive claim, that the book of Job does not address why a god would create deadly diseases. I have read it and I know this. I have presented a link to the entire book that one can read and confirm my claim. Then we see you who makes the claim that the book of job “handles” this, and has refused to provide the chapter and verse that supports your claim repeatedly. So, your claim that “Atheists need to learn to think for themselves go where they have never gone before, ie actually learn something.” Is completely false. You have made a false statement and have evidently made it to defend your belief with the intent of removing the ability to make a informed choice to the reader. Thank you for showing that a self-professed Christian is someone not to be trusted without thought.
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And here’s a link right to the book: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+1&version=NIV
If you don’t like the NIV, you can use whichever version you’d like, SOM. Just use the pulldown menu at the top and pick one. I’m pretty sure I know what you’ll try to use. Toward the end and fraught with implications against other Christian claims.
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Pardon me, but what the fuck exactly does Obamacare have to do with creationist bullshit?
SOM I have seen your work before, you certainly deserve the roughing up you are getting here. So…how about answering the questions you have actually been asked? These red herrings all over place are beginning to stink mightily.
…the only reason there ARE atheist talking points is because trollish morons like yourself have no rebuttal for them. Except to red herring along, and sling insults as if you are so damned smart, and by thinking you can answer a question by evading the question.
You prove nothing with your snide con game, but the troll you are.
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Hrrmm “Atheist Sophistry” apparently translates to “Questions that pierce my Circular Reasoning” What gets me in the story of Job, is that his slaves are killed. The righteous man of God, kept slaves….and they get killed as part of the testing of Job. Well, I guess they weren’t terribly important. They are just listed in with the rest of the property.
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exactly. and you are correct that this pierces the claim that many Christians that the bible doesn’t promote slavery and treating people like property. Don God is all about “hey, here’s a little something for the problems I caused. No no, take it. or else.”
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