I’ve been having some discussions with Christians on morality. They certainly are sure that their morality and only theirs is divinely approved. This chunk of comic (when Beta Ray Bill was wielding Mjolnir, aka Meow-Meow, in the Thor comics), is a good antidote to such nonsense.
And found Thor’s Hammer kittens on etsy: https://www.etsy.com/listing/168518362/mew-mew-mjolnir-kitty-small?ref=shop_home_active_4 Far too cute!
Club Schadenfreude 
That is the problem. Every religion under the sun deigns its particular beliefs and/or morals to be ordained by their invisible friends. Doesn’t take long for worlds/opinions/religious views to collide. When that happens, well history speaks for itself. Blood flows like the waters of the rivers.
The comic says it how it should be.
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Can you walk me through how this comic is the antidote to the nonsense that Christian morality is the only one divinely approved?
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Still waiting for you to answer some of my questions and points, John. It’s so curious that you can’t do what I do with no problem. You’ve done such a great job of claiming you’ve answered my questions on your own blog and somehow you didn’t bother letting me know, having to be found by a friend of mine. You didn’t even have the honesty or courage to link to my post or your comments.
The comic shows that one can be moral without any need of a god to be the supposed font of that morality. For a fictional character, Beta Ray Bill is far more moral than the fictional character of the Christian god, invented as many versions by Christians.
Now, please do support your claim that your version of your god is the font of morality. Please do explain the change of the morality of this god through out the bible and then through out modern times when Christians can’t agree on what this god finds moral or not. Please do demonstrate that you have the one true Christianity.
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Outright I must confess that I haven’t studied comic book theology. You have an advantage but I’m not worried.
I would be happy to speak to your points but I first needed to understand those points. You have made several claims and it is your job to defend them, not mine.
1. “The comic shows the one can be moral without any need of a god to be the supposed font of that morality.”
– How does the comic ‘show’ that exactly?
– What is the font of morality for this character?
2. “Beta Ray Bill is far more moral than the fictional character of the Christian god invented as many versions by Christians.”
– Does it seem more than a little silly to argue about the morality of fictional characters?
– How do you know Beta Ray Bill is more moral than God?
– Where is your proof that there are many versions of the Christian god? Where is the proof that Christians are responsible for these reinventions?
– Where do you see God changing His morality through out the Bible and modern times?
The support I offer for God being the font of morality is the comic you posted.
Let’s assume that the Universe is indeed empty as Beta Ray claims. If he is truly alone in the Universe, that makes him God. There is no higher authority to which he answers. Therefore, his decision to ‘do good’ is a divine pronouncement. Just like God, Bill becomes the standard for morality.
The comic doesn’t give specific information about how Beta Bill is going to ‘do good’ so any claims I (or you) make about what that means will require a leap of faith.
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No one needs you to confess you don’t know much about a lot of things, John. I’ve spent quite a long time reading comics, especially Marvel comics. They do a wonderful job of exploring religion, what it means to have religious belief in a world where there are superpowered beings and beings who really are gods. One of my favorites was a graphic novel put out in the 80s called “God Loves, Man Kills” featuring the X-Men, mutants hated for what they are, and the activities of a Christian preacher who ginned up much of that hate of the “other”. One of the mutants, Nightcrawler aka Kurt Wagner, was a strong Christian, never giving up his faith despite the hatred given to him since he looked like a classic demon. In another comic, Kurt was able to drive away vampires because of faith, when another character, Wolverine, whom you may have heard of, couldn’t despite brandishing a cross.
The comic does show that one can be moral without needing your god, John. I know you don’t like this but plenty of people are just as moral as your or better, and you have yet to show that your god exists, much less has the morality of a humane modern human, not the xenophobic, ignorant people that invented it. Beta Ray Bill is an alien and was able to wield Mjolnir, Thor’s hammer, simply because he was a good humane being (only good honorable beings can lift Mjolnir, it was part of the joke in the first Avengers movie because Capitan American could budge it much to Thor’s surprise. Thor occasionally loses the ablity to use Mjolnir, when he’s a jerk). He didn’t care what anyone looked like, he just did what is right.
The font for morality for Beta Ray Bill, and many atheists including me, is the concepts of empathy and compassion for others. No need of some magical god that displays none of these laudable concepts. I don’t need to demand other worship me, I don’t need to command the murder of those who don’t worship me, I don’t need to try to destroy human civilization by making people talk differently because I’m scared they’ll build a tower to heaven. I don’t need to say that since those people are different, they should die. I help who needs help, not demanding that in return for my help, they must worship as I do.
I do find it mildly amusing to discuss the morality of fictional characters. It’s great fun to discuss the morality of Star Wars characters. Just how evil was Darth Vader? Can anyone be redeemed after murdering BILLIONS? Is Captain Kirk a good guy when he kills “gods” all over the place to free people?
Since you cannot show that your god or your supposed savior or any of the other patriarchs or apostles were real or as described by the bible, we’re constantly talking about fictional characters. Of course, I’m still waiting for your evidence that these entities existed, and unsurprisingly you still have none.
You ask how I know that Bill is more moral than your god. Well, see above. Bill doesn’t require people to murder those who don’t agree with him or some god. Bill doesn’t require people to agree with him before he helps them. Bill doesn’t say that people who don’t look or act like him need to be converted or destroyed. Perhaps you don’t find genocide immoral. Do you or do you not find genocide immoral, John? I do request an answer. I’m sure I won’t get one because that might be a bit embarrassing for you.
Your questions are quite amusing. Hmmm, how can I show that there are many version of the Christian god? Well, John, there are all of those sects that claim that their version is the true one and the others aren’t. Roman Catholics and Protestants are wonderful for this. For you to ask a question like “Where is your proof that there are many versions of the Christian god? Where is the proof that Christians are responsible for these reinventions?” shows that either you are amazingly ignorant of Christianity or you are going to rely on a lovely OneTrueScotsman argument. Let’s see, we have the RCC saying that no one has Christianity right but them, at best others may have “parts” of it right. We have them saying that God finds divorce and contraception sinful. We have them claiming that saints can intervene. Then we have Protestants claiming sola fide and sola scriptura and claiming that saints are idolatrous and that God agrees with them. Then we have the predestinationalist and the free-will claimants who both claim that God agrees with them. All of these folks point to various bible passages and say “Look, we’re right and everyone else is wrong and will be damned.” The hells of each sect of Christians is filled with other Christians. The Westboro Baptists are just as Christian as you, John. The RCC is just as Christian as you, the Orthodox Christians, the Unitarian Universalists, the Mormons, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. All claim that their god agrees with them, with no one else, and surprise! None of you have any more evidence that your version of god is real at all or that your version of morality is the one true version.
Where does your god change its morality? Oh, when it had no problem in demanding genocide again and again and again, demanding that people kill their families if they dare not obey the “right” god, etc and then poof, when a bigger badder civilization came up and showed the “chosen people” to be nothing more than wannabees, this god got a lot less feisty. Obey the government without question. Never resist any evil. Depend on God for everything. Then we get the classic revenge fantasy of a group of failed bullies in Revelation, where we get the great scenes of God again demanding genocide. He murders everyone who disagrees with him, and then lets all of the believers live with JC for an eon. But what happens next? God intentionally releases his supposed archenemy, intentionally allows the serpent back into the garden, just for its own jollies. I’m quite sure that my morals and Beta Ray Bill’s are far far better than your god’s.
It’s great to see a Christian trying to coopt something that says gods are worthless. Oh my, that’s hilarious. Hmm, where did you invent the idea that Beta Ray Bill is truly alone in the universe? Didn’t you see those little fellows with him? The thousands of other superheroes, who disagree on the right course of action? Since your basic claim is wrong and shown to be in a nicely graphic fashion, Bill isn’t “God” or a god, at all. He answers to himself and to others, so you’ve failed again, and hilariously so since you had to make up a strawman to attack. Bill’s decision to do good is no more a divine pronouncement than me saying “I’ll do good” is a divine pronouncement. It’s so cute to watch TrueChristians try to redefine words in order to continue their lies. Nope, Bill doesn’t become the standard for morality no more than I have become a standard of morality.
Aw, another false claim that since the comic doesn’t give specific information on how Bill does good one can’t know that he does and one must have faith. Fail again. One can know that Bill does good by reading more of the comic. One can trust that Bill will do good because one has evidence he has and no reason to believe he will change. Bill doesn’t change his morals. Your god does, per the claim of every Christian who claims that this god agrees with them and only them. But of course, you can show hat your god has objective morality. Show its actions; not stories about actions, but actual events. Where is this evidence, John? Where is your god?
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…yeah, I thought I might go over your head with that answer. My bad.
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I suppose you do have to congratulate yourself since no one else has. It’s quite like a comedian using a laugh track. No, John, you did not go over my head. I answered your questions. It’s quite interesting that you consistently try to ignore any responses to your demands when your claims are shown wrong again. You run from question to question, evidently hoping I’ll do your work for you. I am still waiting for your evidence for your claims and your rebuttals to my points.
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You didn’t make any points.
Your rambling diatribe demonstrated your considerable knowledge of comic book lore. It did not address the point I raised. A response is not the same thing as a rebuttal.
I’ll take you at your word that I did not go over your head. Would you do me the courtesy of articulating what you believe my point to be?
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Thanks for showing again that you have no problem lying. I have made quite a few points and I have answered your questions when you insisted that I show you how the hypocrisy of Christians makes Christianity false, the font of morality for Beta Ray Bill, How does the comic ‘show’ that exactly? What is the font of morality for this character, that there are many version of the Christian god and that Christians are responsible for those inventions, and how your god has changed its morality through the bible and modern times per the claims of Christians, etc.
It’s hilarious to watch you try to pretend that I haven’t made any points so you don’t have to rebut them or acknowledge them. I wonder that it is worth it to you to lie so badly when you supposedly believe that lying is a bad thing and places your soul in jeopardy.
My post certainly did demonstrate my considerable knowledge of comic book lore. It also showed my considerable knowledge about Christianity. I addressed all of yours points that you raised; you did not raise only one point, you raised many and asked many questions. Here is where I addressed your points and I did not miss one: https://clubschadenfreude.com/2016/01/16/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-a-marvel-ous-morality/#comment-8265
However, if you do not think I did, tell me which point that you raised that I did not address and I will be happy to address it. I’m waiting.
You are correct, a response doesn’t have to be the same as a rebuttal. A rebuttal (to prove (something) is false by using arguments or evidence – merriam-webster.com) is where I show you are wrong e.g. when you said “Let’s assume that the Universe is indeed empty as Beta Ray claims. If he is truly alone in the Universe, that makes him God. There is no higher authority to which he answers. Therefore, his decision to ‘do good’ is a divine pronouncement. Just like God, Bill becomes the standard for morality.” And I showed that you invented a strawman, as usual, and were simply wrong “Since your basic claim is wrong and shown to be in a nicely graphic fashion, Bill isn’t “God” or a god, at all. He answers to himself and to others, so you’ve failed again, and hilariously so since you had to make up a strawman to attack. Bill’s decision to do good is no more a divine pronouncement than me saying “I’ll do good” is a divine pronouncement. It’s so cute to watch TrueChristians try to redefine words in order to continue their lies. Nope, Bill doesn’t become the standard for morality no more than I have become a standard of morality.” In
You have yet to show that you went over my head with anything you said. It’s great fun to now watch you ask me what your point was; as I stated above, you did not have one point, you had many. That is a classic attempt by someone who thought no one could answer his questions and then they are answered, tries to falsely claim that he really wasn’t asking what he was. Again, I answered all of your points and your questions. I know that I did not miss your points, not “point”. But again, if you want to show that I missed the point, please do show what it was. The central theme, not point, to your post, is no more than trying to establish that your version of Christianity is the only true one, and one can only be moral if one agrees with your version of Christianity.
You have yet to show that your version is the TrueChristianity or that your god exists at all, much less being a font of objective morality.
Still waiting for your evidence to support your claims.
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You responded to my points . You did not rebut my points. It is impossible to rebut an argument before you understand it.
There is no strawman in my argument. Bill states that he finds the universe to be empty.
He cannot mean literally empty because, as you pointed out, there are other things in the picture! Bill is in the universe too. He is using the word empty to mean that there is no being mightier than himself. He says there is no being he is willing to worship. This is your very reason for posting the comic in the first place! Surely you don’t think your own argument is a strawman.
Assuming that Bill is correct, he is, by default, God. There is no challenger to his proclamations. Bill can do whatever he wants.
But I don’t think Bill is right. I don’t think the Universe is empty. There are planets in the picture and stars. There is another being who asks Bill a question. I have confessed a profound ignorance of comic book lore so I will accept any answer you give to this question.
Where did the other stuff in the pictures come from?
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Unfortunately for you, I have indeed rebutted your points “to prove (something) is false by using arguments or evidence”. You can of course keep repeating your lie, it harms no one but you. I’m still waiting for you to tell me about this mysterious point you had and claimed I did not address.
It’s hilarious to watch you employ such silly arguments about what Bill is saying. I’m sorry if you can’t quite figure out that Bill is talking about gods when he says he is alone. It makes no sense to try to claim he thinks he’s completely alone since he’s standing there with other beings. https://clubschadenfreude.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/beta-ray-bill.jpg
Again, there is nothing to show that Bill thinks he is the divine font of morality. He is not saying that no one is mightier than him. Let’s look at what Bill says
“I am alone. I look at the heavens and think them empty. And if not empty, I find the idea of worshipping whatever dwells there obscene. “
“But why do you continue?”
“It doesn’t change what is right. If there is nothing but what we make in this world, brothers… let us make good.”
He does not say that no being is mightier than he is. He says that is sure that there no gods and that if there are gods, he finds the idea of worshipping such beings horrible. Those beings could be mightier her than he is, but he would not worship them. The others ask him why he continues if there are no gods or gods that are not worthy of worship. He responds by saying that he will do what he thinks is right. He doesn’t say that he is the sole arbiter of what is good and right. He doesn’t make any claim like you have made for your god. You have done your best to add things that are not in the comic panel.
I posted the comic because it says that no one needs a god to determine what is right and to point out that TrueChristians like you who try to claim that their god is the only source of morality are liars. I do like the idea that gods aren’t worthy of worship but that is not the main reason I have posted the comic. As I said in my post “I’ve been having some discussions with Christians on morality. They certainly are sure that their morality and only theirs is divinely approved. This chunk of comic (when Beta Ray Bill was wielding Mjolnir, aka Meow-Meow, in the Thor comics), is a good antidote to such nonsense.”
Since I didn’t make your argument, yes I am quite sure that your argument is a strawman. It’s sad that you have to try to lie much and so ineptly.
You are shown to again be wrong. I enjoy watching you try to claim that you really honest meant that Bill didn’t mean he was absolutely alone. Such sad attempts at retconning such things you’ve written as “Let’s assume that the Universe is indeed empty as Beta Ray claims. If he is truly alone in the Universe, that makes him God. There is no higher authority to which he answers. Therefore, his decision to ‘do good’ is a divine pronouncement. Just like God, Bill becomes the standard for morality.” Alas, in a written medium, such shoddy attempts at trying to claim you really meant something you didn’t can be shown for the nonsense they are. It does not surprise me at all that again a TrueChristian deals in attempted deceit.
It’s again quite funny that you somehow have ginned up the concept that if someone won’t worship a god that they somehow become a god. Wow. I also wonder just how you think that Bill can do anything he wants. There’s an entire universe of beings that can affect him.
Hmm, we have you saying this “He cannot mean literally empty because, as you pointed out, there are other things in the picture! He is using the word empty to mean that there is no being mightier than himself.” And then you return to your claims that somehow Bill is indeed saying that the universe is literally empty when you claim that you are right since there is indeed things in the universe “There are planets in the picture and stars”. Yes, I pointed that out earlier when you tried to lie and claim that Bill was literally saying that there was nothing. You make little sense, John, but that is no great surprise. You have profound ignorance in many things, John. No one doubts that.
Ah, now we get one more question, and still no evidence for your claims, no answers to my questions and you evidently have no idea what your point was that I supposedly missed. Where did the other stuff in the picture come from? Ah, the same sad little question that creationists try to use. Well, John, as I’ve said before, we aren’t completely sure yet. There is evidence that the universe came from the laws of physics. No god needed at all. Please do show that your god caused the universe to happen. Please show that the laws of physics can’t be eternal as you claim your god to be. Please show that no other god/s created the universe. I’m sure you won’t give this information because you have been asked before and have refused to give it. Still waiting.
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We’re not discussing imaginary gods. We’re discussing real comic book characters.
I am willing to accept ANY answer you provide. Where did all the planets, stars and beings in the panels come from?
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That’s just nonsense John, since you have asked the same questions when we weren’t talking about comic book characters and were talking about gods, including your imaginary one.
Again, I did answer your question. Nice to see that you either didn’t read my post or have chosen to lie again. Let me post it again:
“Ah, now we get one more question, and still no evidence for your claims, no answers to my questions and you evidently have no idea what your point was that I supposedly missed. Where did the other stuff in the picture come from? Ah, the same sad little question that creationists try to use. Well, John, as I’ve said before, we aren’t completely sure yet. There is evidence that the universe came from the laws of physics. No god needed at all. Please do show that your god caused the universe to happen. Please show that the laws of physics can’t be eternal as you claim your god to be. Please show that no other god/s created the universe. I’m sure you won’t give this information because you have been asked before and have refused to give it. Still waiting.”
Since I have no idea what little trap you think you are setting, I’ll offer several more answers that depend on a variety of contexts:
1. if we are discussing the context of how comics are made, then the planets, stars and beings in the comic panels came there from being drawn by an artist which I think might be Walt Simonson in this case. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Ray_Bill)
2. If we are assuming that the Marvel Universe is real, then the universe was created by the Big Bang and thus the laws of physics created the planets, stars and beings. There are various gods in the MU but they are not shown to be the creators of the universe. I’ve personally read books where Hercules and the Olympian pantheon, the Norse pantheon, the Egyptian pantheon, the Aztec patheon are shown. Many of these were shown when Thor (I think) had to go to each pantheon to collect “god force” to heal his father Odin. There are also other powerful entities like Dormammu Nightmare, Satan, Satannish, Belasco, Mephisto, etc who rule other dimensions.
I have already mentioned that the Christian god is mentioned and believed in. Capt. America is one of the more famous heroes who believe in this god. This god never does anything. The Marvel Universe does show disasters where the heroes cannot stop them but they at least help e.g. the 9/11 attacks. The Christian god does nothing just like it did in this universe.
The Big Bang is a part of the milleu and we know this because Galactus is a being from before the Big Bang.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactus
I am still waiting for you to answer my questions, rebut my points and provide evidence for your claims. It’s a shame you refuse to do what I have no problem doing at all. It’s great accumulating evidence that your claims are false and your religion is nothing more than an invention by humans.
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Thank you! I appreciate your response(s).
In response #1, Walt Simonson is God. If Walt did not exist, Bill would not exist. We can’t blame Bill for not knowing about Walt because Mr. Simonson hasn’t revealed himself to his creation. Walt does not exist as an object in the Marvel universe. He transcends that which he has created. Walt Simonson is supernatural in regards to the Marvel universe.
Response #2 is a little muddled. You offered several possible explanations for the origins of the universe. You suggest that the laws of physics are responsible for the Big Bang. Later, you revealed that Galactus is a being from before the Big Bang. That would make Galactus supernatural.
Of the two, I like your 1st answer best. It’s similar to the way our own universe came to be. Conjured up from the mind of an all powerful creator outside of His creation.
But our creator accomplished something that is impossible for Walt Simonson. We are imbued with the ability to understand the universe we live in. We are sentient. We invent religion!
If the characters in a comic book were to become self aware, wouldn’t you call that a miracle?
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So, here we are again with John asking the same questions and still being unable to answer my questions, provide any evidence to support his claims or rebut my points. You keep asking the same questions and those questions still fail.
Now we’re back to the teleological argument which relies upon the ontological argument for it to make any sense. You of course cannot show any evidence of “design” in the universe nor can you show that it is your god that did anything at all. All of these arguments, that use logic, are also based on false premises which means that their results are also false. You won’t read it because you depend on your willful ignorance to keep your faith, but here is why this always fails: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise
You’ve done an excellent job of showing that the bible is nothing more than a comic book. The bible was written by humans and so were comic books. You do make an interesting argument though, since Bill can’ t know about Simonson, and we can’t know about any god since there is no evidence for it, then atheism is the correct conclusion to arrive at. Now, John, this is yet another point where you can show your evidence for your god.
As before, you need to show that the laws of physics can’t have created the universe, that only your god could have and that no other god/s were the creators. Still waiting. Incidentally there have been several instances where the writers do reveal themselves to their character and the characters had no reason to think them gods.
No, John, I didn’t give “several” explanations for the origins of the Marvel Universe. It has been established that the Big Bang was the orgin of the Marvel universe. Nice try but you’ve failed again in your attempts to tell false claims. You seem to be utterly ignorant on what the term supernatural means. It means “unable to be explained by science or the laws of nature : of, relating to, or seeming to come from magic, a god, etc.” (merriam-webster). There is nothing saying that the Big Bang is supernatural and since the Big Bang comes from physics, there is no reason at all to call Galactus supernatural since he came from a source that evidently works with the same physics as we have. He’s a being of matter and energy just like this universe has. Unsurpringly, Christians always try to redefine words to try to make their lies work. It doesn’t work very well and you fail again.
Again, our universe was not conjured from the mind of an all-powerful creator outside of his creation. No evidence that there is an all-powerful creator. No evidence that it is somehow outside of its creation. It always amuses me when some Christians claim this. Their claim indicates that this god cannot interact with the creation at all, belying the further claims that this god contantly interferes with this creation. If his god is outside of space and time, how does it interact with it, John? If it has no awareness of time, then it has no idea when to interfere. If it is only magic, then how does it interact with matter and energy? If it can interact, then we should be able to measure this god force. No evidence for it at all.
Humans certainly do invent religion, and since you have no evidence for your God and your supposed savior, they invent gods too. We are indeed sentient and sapient. No miracle needed and no evidence any miracles (aka events caused by magic) happen at all, despite the constant claims of theists and Christians, claims that your God or other gods interferes with this reality, claims that of healing people, claims of magical rescues. All baseless claims Still no evidence for a god of any kind needed for this. But as always, you can present this evidence that it was your god, not the laws
of physics and not some other god.
Still waiting.
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Not even a ‘thanks for your response’? Aren’t you worried about hurting my feelings?
I was using your premises to advance the discussion. I was agreeing with you!
You stated emphatically that “our universe was not conjured from the mind of an all-powerful creator outside of his creation”. Can you share the evidence that has convinced you of this important truth?
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Do you need me to thank you John? Why?
I know you were using my post to advance the discussion. Now, I am waiting for you to answer my questions. That’s what a discussion is, you answering my questions, me answering yours. But it seems you are unable or unwilling to do that, John. It’s a shame. But I can understand that you don’t want to since you don’t have answers or the answers would be bit embarrassing. Again, do you find genocide moral, John?
I have already shared with you the evidence that your god did not create the universe, John. But I’ll repeat it to just underline that a TrueChristian has no problem in lying, and showing that his faith in god and his hypocrisy are excellent evidence to demonstrate that Christianity is nonsense. I’ll even add some things.
No evidence for creation being as it is described in the bible. The big bang isn’t a magical being separating already existing matter. The moon isn’t like the sun, giving off electromagnetic energy as light and heat.
No evidence that there were land plants before everything else.
No evidence that starts are just lights in the sky stuck on a dome. They don’t fall either.
At this time we aren’t sure what caused the universe to form and the big bang to “bang”. But all evidence supports that there was a big bang, and that the universe came from that, the laws of physics, no god needed. Matter is equivalent to energy. Gravity causes matter to coalesce and energy gives it order. Again, I shall give links that you will not read because you are afraid: http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-powered-the-big-bang/
http://www.atnf.csiro.au/outreach/education/senior/cosmicengine/bigbang.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
http://www.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/ess05.sci.ess.eiu.microwave/evidence-for-the-big-bang-theory/
Let me summarize: your stories aren’t supported by evidence. The big bang is supported by evidence and the laws of physics are all that is needed. You need to show a god is needed. Can you?
still waiting for evidence that an all-powerful being is required, John. Still waiting for your evidence that it is your god and no other. You have made the positive claim that the Christian god created the universe. Please provide the evidence.
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We agree that the Big Bang is supported by evidence. This evidence confirms that the universe had a beginning. Therefore, the universe is not eternal.
Though you insist that you’ve answered my question, you actually have not. My question was what evidence do you have that god did not create the universe? The essence of your response was, “The Big Bang happened and it doesn’t require a god.” Do you know that with certainty? (That’s rhetorical. I already know the answer.)
I appreciate your admission that we aren’t sure what caused the universe to form. That confession should highlight the futility of then stating ‘God is not necessary’. You can’t possibly know what’s necessary unless you understand how the universe came to exist. Right?
The jig is up. Your answer to that question is no better than mine. I say ‘God did it’. You say ‘the Big Bang did it’.
You aren’t an atheist at all! You just call God ‘Big Bang’.
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Like so many theists, John, you are desperate to believe that everyone agrees with you and believes in your god. You need external validation since there is no evidence for your god at all. No, John, I don’t call the Big Bang a god, yours or any other god. It is nice that you continue to make more false claims.
The “big bang” is an event based on the laws of physics, not a god. At this point, we have no idea if the universe is eternal or not, the big bang does not have to be a “beginning”. It can be one of an infinite series. It could indeed be a beginning, but that does not preclude the laws of physics from being just as “eternal” and “necessary” as your god. Still no need for your god at all, still no evidence that your god is the creator of the universe.
I have answered your questions, but please do keep lying and claiming I have not. It harms no one but you. I have indeed given you evidence that your god did not create the universe. You may of course ignore it if you wish. That doesn’t make it go away and does underline that you intentionally attempt to misrepresent what I have said. No, John, the “essence” of the evidence I gave was not simply “The Big Bang happened and it doesn’t require a god.”. I do know for certain that your god did not create the universe. Again, I presented the evidence why this is the case.
We are indeed not sure what caused the universe to form. It is not a confession, it is a fact. Since we do have positive evidence that it was not your god, it is not futile at all to say your god is not necessary. The evidence supports that conclusion. I’m still waiting for you to give evidence to support your claim that your god created the universe and is “necessary” aka “God did it”, to show why the laws of physics can’t have caused the universe and can’t be “eternal” and “necessary” and to show that no other gods could have been the creator.
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I actually don’t need anyone to agree with me. My beliefs aren’t based on consensus.
Far from making your case that ‘there is no god’, the evidence you have presented demonstrates the utter futility of atheism. It’s not particularly impressive when you keep insisting that you know god didn’t create the universe. I already know that’s what you think. I got it the first time you said it.
I also remember you saying that nobody knows how the universe came to exist. Refusing to acknowledge the incompatibility of these two statements doesn’t make them true. This is Philosophy 101, Club. Something cannot be both true and not true at the same time.
…I’ll spell it out…
You cannot say “god didn’t create the universe” and “I don’t know how the universe was created” at the same time. Well, you CAN say it. But when you do, you’re the one who comes off looking desperate.
So, here we go again with Club denying that she possesses faith while defending her faith based opinions on the origins of reality.
You speak often of being ‘amused’ by my faith. You must crack yourself up!
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Your actions bely your claims that you “don’t actually need anyone to agree” with you. You certainly seem intent on getting others to agree with you when you preach on your website and when you try to tell me that I am not an atheist and that I agree with you.
I do love when you try to claim that I haven’t made the case that there is no god, and then can’t show that this is the case at all. Still waiting for you to show that my evidence is incorrect and that your claims are true. You have repeatedly asked me to show evidence that there is no god. I have and now you whine that how dare I repeat myself responding to you.
Again, we don’t yet know how the universe has come to exist. We also have evidence that shows that your god can be rejected as the cause. I have already given that evidence. Philosophy 101 is that one can remove possibilities if the evidence precludes them and still not know how something happened. For example, humans don’t know how the Egyptian pyramids were built, but we can safely say that animal headed gods didn’t do it because there is evidence against their existence and the stories told about them. Thus, I can indeed say we don’t know how the universe came to exist but we can be sure that it wasn’t your god.
You certainly did try to spell something out but it was wrong as usual. Of course, you again trying to claim I have faith just to make yourself feel better in playing pretend that everyone agrees with you. No, John, I don’t have faith based opinions, I have evidence that your god doesn’t exist and that it is not the creator of this universe. I’m still waiting for your evidence that your god is the creator, that the laws of physics can’t be eternal and that no other gods were the creator.
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You don’t know how the pyramids are built but you can safely say that animal headed gods didn’t do it. Curious, how would you respond if I suggested that the pyramids were built by the laws of physics?
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Well, John, since we have evidence that the laws of physics exist and were involved, you can indeed say that the pyramids were built by the laws of physics. How exactly this happened, we don’t know. We do know that it was through human agency at the time, as caused by the laws of physics.
I’m still waiting for you to provide evidence for your claims, answer my questions, etc etc.
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To be clear, is it your contention that the laws of physics alone are not adequate to explain the existence of the pyramids?
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Nope, not at all. The laws of physics are entirely responsible since the universe started with them. the universe led to humans, and humans built the pyramids. We don’t know how but we do know that magical gods weren’t needed.
I’ll post what I said again “Well, John, since we have evidence that the laws of physics exist and were involved, you can indeed say that the pyramids were built by the laws of physics. How exactly this happened, we don’t know. We do know that it was through human agency at the time, as caused by the laws of physics.
I’m still waiting for you to provide evidence for your claims, answer my questions, etc etc. “
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I stand corrected.
Your god is not ‘Big Bang’. Your god is ‘Physics’.
You know, there’s evidence that the laws of mathematics are true. Maybe mathematics created the universe.
Or, perhaps chess is responsible for the universe. Chess has rules, laws if you will. But so does Chutes and Ladders.
Heck, the universe could have been created by traffic laws! Or international trade laws…
How did you decide which laws would be the basis for your faith?
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Still no evidence for your claims, no answered to my questions and no rebuttals to my points. Just more baseless claims, more lies and more questions as you run around in circles.
You aren’t corrected, John, you just make up more nonsense in order to play pretend that my view of the universe is no better than yours, since that’s the best argument you have for your religion, that other people believe in silly things to so my religion must be RIGHT.
Yep, one can do actual proofs in mathematics. Mathematics is the method of describing the universe in a set of agreed on symbols https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics ) . Physics uses mathematics, and you’ve done another great job of making an argument against your god. Still no reason to need a god, still no evidence that gods exists or that your god is the creator.
Alas for you, your analogies so often fail. I’m sure it will surprise you that chess and chutes and ladders and Candyland was never intended to describe the universe and do nothing to explain what has happened and what will happen. Please do keep showing that you are just grasping at straws.
You seem to not understand what laws are in this context, with your claims that traffic laws and international trade laws could create anything. It’s a shame you are so willfully ignorant and try to spread such ignorance. I am quite sure that you will not read this to actually correct your ignorance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_law
Unlike your myths, I cannot pick and choose which of the laws of physics exist. We, indeed everything in the universe, is affected by these laws. I need no faith that physics works, nor do I need to worship them. Nice try, and you are a wonderful example of how a Christian will say anything in their desperation.
Still waiting for your evidence for your claims, your answers to my questions and your rebuttals to my points.
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I apologize for running in circles. I didn’t mean to lose you.
I’m going to concede that you have caused me to think about this in a way I never have before. I’m wiser because of you.
The Wikipedia link you supplied defined the laws of physics as, “a theoretical statement inferred from particular facts, applicable to a defined group or class of phenomena, and expressible by the statement that a particular phenomenon always occurs if certain conditions be present.”
Reading that opened my mind to the possibility that the laws of physics may be responsible for the creation of the universe!
The law is “a statement”.
A statement must be stated.
(Statements cannot state themselves.)
The Book of Genesis explains that creation was the result of God speaking.
God stated the laws of physics into existence.
And the rest is (theoretical) history.
Would you be interested in co-authoring a book with me?
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Lose me? No. Bore me a bit, yes.
And again, we’re now back to the cosmological argument. You do your best to twist words in your desperation for a god. To humans, the law must be stated, it doesn’t have to be stated to exist. There were laws of physics without humans. You fail again, John, in your need to have a god and your inability to think beyond what is written.
No gods needed, no Christian god needed. Still waiting for you to show evidence to support your claims, still waiting for you to show me that the laws of physics now need “stated” and that it was your god and only your god that said them, not that they need to be stated at all.
I would never consider co-authoring anything with such a deceitful human being. I do have standards.
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Ok.
I’ll fold my hand.
I have no rebuttal for the claim that immaterial laws conjured up matter.
I have no rebuttal for the claim that the only certainty about the origins of the universe is that God had nothing to do with it.
I have no response to your rebutting your own definition of the laws of physics.
I have no rebuttal for the claim that you have standards.
I have no rebuttal for any argument put forth in any comic book.
And finally, I can present no satisfactory evidence that I am capable of rational thought.
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It is always noticeable when you claim you are folding your hand and then proceed to lie about what was discussed earlier. All you are doing is lying and trying to play the martyr. That is sad but it does wonders for shown that Christianity is no font of morality.
There is evidence that the laws of physics explain where matter comes from. You have been shown this information and have asked to present evidence to support your claims that these laws don’t explain this and that the universe has come from your god and only your god. You have refused.
You are lying when you claim I have my “own definition of the laws of physics.” Please do show this to be the case.
I know you have no rebuttal to the claim I do have standards against working with those who intentionally make false accuastions, ignore evidence and refuse to provide evidence for their claims.
No argument was solely put forth in a comic book. I am still waiting for evidence to support your claims, for you to show that the laws of physics cannot be eternal and the source of the universe, and that the creator of the universe must be only your version of your god.
You have been given multiple chances to show that you are capable of rational thought, of providing evidence for your claims. That you have chosen not to do so is no one’s fault but your own.
Now, with all of these admissions of yours, do you mean them honestly or is this just passive-aggressive behavior? I am not expecting an answer but if your god does exist, it may have an issue with someone who isn’t being honest.
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Honestly.
You made me think about things differently than I have before.
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I find that a good thing. Unfortunately, you still try to twist everything to fit your a priori belief.
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Guilty.
I need to do a better job of being open to new ideas.
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If you would ever like suggestions on books to read to introduce you to ideas you might not be used to, I’d be happy to suggest some.
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hmmm, are we heading the teleological argument? I bet we are 🙂
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