Unsurprisingly, the comments got a little hairy looking on the prior post.
Alex seems to have determined he doesn’t want to debate things anymore. This often happens when the theist finds they have nothing when it comes to supporting their claims. In this case, Alex was unable to give examples of his accusations against various people, me, Joe Biden, etc, and give examples of evidence that supports his version of Christianity.
Alex, as the typical theist is wont to do, tried some classic logical fallacies, and some of the supposed “logical” arguments for god, but forgot that those arguments aren’t for his god but for some vague force and the theist can’t get from them to their particular god since there is no evidence for those gods. Despite the myths claiming that this god has repeatedly caused events on the earth that should produce evidence, there is none to be found.
Theists, like Alex, and bibledog who showed up later into the conversation, should consider their religion from an outsider’s point of view, like John Loftus recommends. They could simply place another god’s name in place of their own and consider how valid their arguments sound coming from a religion they did not have a personal stake in.
Here is what I’m guessing is his final post. Often theists do return to continue the conversation, unable to stick with their dramatic exits. We’ll see. I’ve put in paragraph breaks where I think appropriate since all I was left with is a block of text.
“You know what? I think our discussion has come to a close. No matter how hard I try, or how much evidence I provide, I know that in your current state you will never change your mind.”
This is a common attack by a Christian who has no evidence for his claims. He has provided no evidence. He has tried to use the various arguments, cosmological, teleological, etc for his god and they do not show that any version of the Christian god exists. At best, these arguments *may* offer a possibility of some vague “force” to accomplish what they claim. He has also used claims of this god personally doing things for him, which I suspect he would not accept from any other type of theist. Since no theist has evidence of divine intervention, there is no reason to accept this as evidence.
“You insist on standing by your science which is wonderful but seems unable to cure things like cancer. Tell me, if we didn’t need God, then shouldn’t science be able to solve all of our problems? Shouldn’t science be able to make sure that parents never get divorced? Shouldn’t science make sure that wars never happen (instead of helping people develop nuclear weapons?) Shouldn’t science be constant, never changing, always true, instead of always being refuted?”
Alex uses the science he attacks so vigorously. Science can indeed cure some kinds of cancers, which is yet another instance of Alex’s willful ignorance coming into play. Therapy, part of the psychological science, can help parents not get divorced. Science does help prevent war by increasing available resources which are often fought over. Science doesn’t constantly change, as Alex falsely claims. It is refined and since we don’t yet have complete knowledge of everything, we are limited in discovery of facts, e.g. what is true.
Now, compare this to the Christian claims of a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, and supposedly omni-benevolent being. This being cannot be shown to exist nor can it do anything that Alex claims science can’t do at all. It has not cured one kind of cancer, kept parents together despite the admonitions in its supposed “holy book”, and Christians themselves cannot agree what this god wants, making it always changing.
“See, the bottom line you guys, is that you can call my claims baseless or unfounded, and maybe they are (that’s why we have faith after all), but your claims are just as baseless. You cannot prove to me that some divine hand did not create the universe simply because there is evidence it had to do with physics”
Yes, I, and we, can show that all of Alex’s claims are baseless and unfounded and we have the evidence to support that conclusion. I’ve asked Alex for evidence for his various accusations and he either can’t or won’t. I can indeed show that there is no reason to assume that Alex’s god exists since we have no evidence for any of the events it supposedly caused. I suspect that Alex would deny that any creator god I might name created the world since there is no evidence for them either. Physics doesn’t need a god, so why assume one?
“I can throw a rock and you can tell me all the reasons why it flies in the path it flies based off of weight and velocity, the fact remains however, that I threw that rock, not physics.”
Yep, we can indeed describe the physics that allow a human body to work and how a thrown object behaves. Physics allows Alex to throw that rock. Without physics, no Alex.
“And you are all upset about me “lying” about you guys. Okay, how’d I lie? By pointing out that in world with no afterlife, it doesn’t matter how far science advances to make us comfortable we can never prevent death, therefore there is no point in us existing anyway and we might as well just clean up the population problem by removing people who are making it hard to live our pointless lives? If that’s what your mad about then I’m afraid you’ll have to deal.”
Alex requests evidence of his lies. Okay. He has repeated false claims about people, including atheists, Joe Biden, other types of Christians, etc. He has been offered the chance to provide evidence to support his claims. He has refused.
“For instance, the Bible says no to worship anything besides God, that means that Catholics practices of praying to saints and such is wrong.”
“Well, Biden does not seem to have it altogether mentally, and because of him gas prices are really high. “
” I mean, by an atheists logic, they are going to die, there’s no way to stop them and nothing to tell them before they do so we might as well get rid of them, especially the ones who are using up all the resources in India and Africa and China.”
All false claims made with the intent to spread false information for the benefit of the Christian and to try to take away the ability of informed decisions from others.
He unfortunately doubles down on his false claims. “By pointing out that in world with no afterlife, it doesn’t matter how far science advances to make us comfortable we can never prevent death, therefore there is no point in us existing anyway and we might as well just clean up the population problem by removing people who are making it hard to live our pointless lives? If that’s what your mad about then I’m afraid you’ll have to deal.”
none of this is true. It is a rather pathetic attempt to claim that atheists must be nihilists. I will indeed “deal” with this by pointing out how these baseless claims have failed.
“After all, you called my God both a liar and murder, not to mention that you didn’t mention a single good thing about Christians. Do not judge others lest they judge you by your own standard, (there’s one you ought to like). Call me a chicken, call me a fool, or even a child. I happen to like chicken. God hath chosen the foolish things to triumph over the wise, so the more foolish I sound to you the better. And as for a child, well I like to think that I’m still a kid at heart.”
Alex has missed the difference between being child-like and childish. Why should I mention anything good about Christianity when it isn’t good? That some Christians do good, and do so by ignoring their bible, is nothing special or new, nor does it make his nonsense true. Humans can and often are quite good, no god needed. We aren’t the “dirty rags” that Christianity claims.
Alex has also tried very hard to steal the accomplishments of humans and falsely claim his god is the one responsible for the hard work of humans. Alas, for Alex, even if this bible of his claims this god chooses the foolish over the wise, it’s not happened that the foolish has triumphed over anything at all.
“I have done my best to be kind and courteous and all I got for it in return was a couple f-words from a lot stiff necked people. It’s funny though; I’m very mad and frustrated with y’all but my God would still forgive you and show compassion to you, so I will too. You are all welcome at my blog anytime so long as you keep it civil (to my standards). I appreciate all the time you took to set this up and the traffic, however short lived, you sent my way. I hope you all will find within you that thing Elizabeth was talking about. She might not have presented it the right way but it’s in there, and I hope that those of you have fallen out of faith will come back and those who have never had one will choose to accept Jesus into their hearts. Best wishes to all of you-AP”
Making and repeating false claims is not kind or courteous. Alex is the one who has described being friendly as *only* not using curse words, nothing else, which is telling. He is indeed mad and frustrated and his god is still a baseless claim. No one needs forgiveness from this imaginary god nor from Alex for showing him to be wrong.
I am quite happy that I engaged Alex and linked to his blog. His actions did more than I could ever do to show how poisonous religion can be.
Now, to the denouement to show how Alex wanted to support Elizabeth, who tried so very hard convince her self that everyone really agrees with her.
“Now we’re getting down to the Elizabeth thing and then I’ll move onto the next of the comments you made. I think Elizabeth was right but went about the wrong way trying to prove it. She tried to prove that everyone agreed with her and not with God. But wouldn’t it make sense, that if God really did create the universe that everyone would know Him somewhere inside? You are actually correct that this statement contradicts my earlier one to Nan, about the Bible not being perfectly downloaded into our conscience. I suppose then it’s our human nature that causes us to suppress the knowledge. Let me know your thoughts.
As for me not being able to drive out demons and protect myself from sickness, that’s again where you have to look at it in an artistic manner. Christians do drive out real demons, but we also drive out the demons of sadness, insecurity, fear, etc. negative things. Protecting ourselves from sickness. Well, we still get sick, but when we have God we are able to worry less about all sorts of stuff, essentially protecting ourselves from the sickness of fear.
Now, a debate is a debate. But as my brother likes to point out to me, debates have an outcomes, and arguments don’t. I can feel that this is becoming more and more of an argument. I’ve have done my best to stay friendly, but if you can not do the same then I’m afraid our discussion might be coming to a close.”
No evidence that Alex’s god did anything, so no reason to assume his baseless claim to be true any more than Elizabeth’s. No knowledge, so no knowledge to supposedly “suppress”.
Alex’s inability to do what his supposed messiah promised is nothing new. He must try to claim that this messiah only meant “metaphors”, and now this god is again depowered to excuse its, and alex’s failure.
Debates do have outcomes and Alex has lost this one.
Addendeum – 5/4/22 4:41 EDT.
As predicted, Alex is back.
“Oh, is that what all those quotes were for; the ellipses and all the numbers made it kind of confusing. Well if that’s what you think, that’s what you think, I really hope you reconsider though. One last thought. Why exactly is it that atheists choose not to believe? If what you have told me is true, and they live to help people, and they expect that they’re going to die, then why not put their faith in God and if it turns out Christianity is real they go to heaven and if it isn’t then they don’t. Your problem seems to be that you think God is a murder and somehow wrong for orchestrating His creation, but if you look at the Bible in it’s entirety, you’ll see he really does care, and does do what is just, and does want the best for us. Are there parts of the Bible that we don’t understand? Yes. If you think about it, why would the affairs of an allpowerful God make sense to a human being anyway? If you accept that God is visible in the surrounding world, and not simply only the supernatural, then it becomes very hard for me to understand why there are atheists at all. I mean when it comes down to it, the difference between a Christian and an Atheist is that a Christian believes that, if a person asks Jesus for forgiveness and repents of their sins, then they get to go to a wonderful place. When you think about it that way, it almost doesn’t make sense that there are atheists at all.”
Why would I reconsider? Your god is a horrible character. I wouldn’t worship such a thing even if it were real.
I don’t choose not to believe in Alex’s version of the Chrsitian god, since that’s all you have. There is no evidence. I can’t believe in things with no evidence. Atheists do what they want, and they do and don’t help others.
All you have offered is Pascal’s wager. This makes your god particularly stupid if it accepts anyone who believes “just in case”. I have better moral standards than your god so I don’t care about its heaven or hell.
Your god is a murderer and a liar, and imaginary. I’ve read the entire bible and there is nothing in it that shows it cares about anything but being stroked off. So your claim fails already.
There is no part of the bible I don’t understand. It is the ignorant and vicious belief of humans in a vicious and ignorant god. There is nothing mysterious about your god, it is as pathetic as any god invented by humans. And dear, I don’t even remotely accept that your god exists,much less is “visible in the surrounding world”.
Again, Christians make up what their god disapproves of e.g. “sin”. Why should I care about what you’ve made up? There is no evidence of a “wonderful place”. And your “wonderful place” is a horror, with a moronic god that kills people for no reason, who commits genocide, who approves of slavery. This “city of heaven on earth” is quite the demented wealth fantasy, where everything is this tacky mess of gold, jewels etc. I can’t be bribed with such garbage. Christiansn can’t even agree on what this “wonderful place” is. The complete ignorance of Christians on what their bible actually says about the supposed afterlife is hilarious.
Club Schadenfreude 
Alex seems to think that belief is a choice. Nope. Belief is a conclusion, not a decision.
I couldn’t believe in undead rabbis, magic boats full of animals or absurdly exaggerated worldwide floods if I *wanted* to — or even if my life literally depended on it. The best I could manage would be to publicly pretend to believe, but internally I would know that I was lying to myself.
Wouldn’t mind My very own Talking Snake™, ‘tho. 😀
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It’s fairly certain Jesus of Nazareth was here among us. Of course it’s who he claimed to be that’s up in the air. I take it he lived a commonplace life until his 3 year ministry; then he spoke with authority, “Follow me.. I am the way.”
That made Christ polarizing- he attracted commoners, repelled the clergy, and his hometown family accused him of madness. And I believe he lived 100% by faith because that’s how God works. If he’s not for you and your readers, I understand.
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I’m not so certain that there was a historical Jesus, Arnold. For someone who supposedly caused such a ruckus in the Roman-occupied Levant, there’s an amazing lack of documentation from that time period. By the time stories did start to emerge, they were primarily in Greek and more than a generation after the alleged events. To me, that suggests that they were myth and fable rather than historical accounts by eye witnesses.
And people can live by faith even if the object of their devotion is wholly imaginary.
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Again, I understand your skepticism. It’s as if the LACK of physical evidence was purposed, even corrupted. Plus, the story is supernatural to boot. It’s so far beyond the physical realm that the first step of belief has to be “God.” Big step.
Although not for me: I was raised in an idyllic, family-farm setting AND fully indoctrinated in the Baptist church. So the big hurdle for me is that God’s NOT partial; I mean, why me?! So it’s obvious my next step is give him the benefit of the doubt.
It’s like “the way” opens up before me. It’s like he’s personal to me so I live that way. I live the commoner path I’m on, just like Christ did. Self-fulfilling prophecy? Why not.
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“Again, I understand your skepticism. It’s as if the LACK of physical evidence was purposed, even corrupted. Plus, the story is supernatural to boot. It’s so far beyond the physical realm that the first step of belief has to be “God.” Big step.
Although not for me: I was raised in an idyllic, family-farm setting AND fully indoctrinated in the Baptist church. So the big hurdle for me is that God’s NOT partial; I mean, why me?! So it’s obvious my next step is give him the benefit of the doubt.
It’s like “the way” opens up before me. It’s like he’s personal to me so I live that way. I live the commoner path I’m on, just like Christ did. Self-fulfilling prophecy? Why no”
Yep, indoctrinated, and believing without consideration. Nothing new for any cult member. Alas, per your own bible, this god is entirely “partial” (inclined to favor one party more than the other : BIASED -merriam webster). You continue to make up nonsense. You live the way you want, and try to claim that some magical omni-max being approves, just like every other theist.
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Arnold: Again, I understand your skepticism. It’s as if the LACK of physical evidence was purposed, even corrupted.”
No, it’s just a lack of physical evidence and it does not automatically lead to the conclusion that there was evidence, but that it was somehow suppressed or corrupted. That’s just conspiracy theory BS. The lack of evidence leads to a dead end, and I’m fine with that.
For me, there never has been a “first step of belief.” I have no religious faith whatsoever, not even for deities that I actually like (e.g. Oðinn, Athena, and various gods from modern fantasy fiction such as Lunitari and Anoia).
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Jesus saw everything as evidence. He lived facing his Father 24/7 whether he was with the homeless, commoners or religious. And he put his life in me to live likewise- face to face with God.
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Jesus Christ never existed so your attempts to claim a fictional character “saw everything as evidence” is simply nonsense. You, like so many theists, try to pretend how important you are by insisting that you and you alone as “face to face” with some magical creature who agrees with you.
your fantasies are not impressive.
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That’s exactly what he wants! Face time all the time.
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“That’s exactly what he wants! Face time all the time.”
and yet more nonsense Arnold has made up. Your god, aka you, is quite creepy. I am always amused with Christians who can’t stand other christians and desperately need the attention of atheists since they can find no other audience.
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Arnold: “Jesus saw everything as evidence. He lived facing his Father 24/7 whether he was with the homeless, commoners or religious. And he put his life in me to live likewise- face to face with God.”
Cool story, Arnold. Needs more dragons.
Jesus ain’t here – it’s us you’re talking to, and we don’t see your silly delusions as evidence. If you cant meet *our* evidentiary standards, you might as well quit while you’re behind.
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yes, more dragons, and perhaps a god not so stupid as his. I vote for Sekhmet and Loki.
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I suppose right or wrong we made our points.
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“I suppose right or wrong we made our points.”
No, you’ve made baseless claims. those aren’t equal to the points supported by fact by everyone else. You have no points, only fantasy.
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it’s curious that Arnold has liked my response to him. theists, looking desperately for validation or if failing that, to convince themselves they are such wonderful martyrs.
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Maybe I was just looking for a lil common ground.
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do tell why anyone would want common ground with someone whose religion is based on the nonsense that anyone who disagrees with it deserves to be punished?
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My religion is based on the God (the Person), that laid down his life so to give his spirit to whoever will have him. He indeed TAKES responsibility for this mess (in the crucifixion), yet I don’t think he IS responsible. To me, there’s something very odd about all the slavery and carnage etc the Bible credits to him. We don’t see the whole picture.
Whereas you accuse God, I give him the benefit of doubt on all the stuff I don’t understand (which is a lot). I’m learning to see his hand in my own personal circumstances and thoughts. I very much DO want a personal relationship with him. Wouldn’t you, if you knew he was sifting through your thoughts and intents? Wouldn’t you crave common ground?
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Your religion is based on the stories that you only get from the bible. Your religion requires a blood sacrifice by torture rather than people being responsible for themselves.
This happens, per your stories, after thousands of years where this god tries various things to correct its mess started in genesis. This god, if these ridiculous stories are true, is indeed responsible. You just make up a version where it isn’t, in your own image. Of course the bible stories are “very odd” and you just ignore what yuo don’t like. There is no “whole picture” to see. It’s nonsense made up by humans and then altered by humans who want to pretend they have an omnipotent friend.
Yep, a human gives the “benefit of the doubt” to his imaginary friend since he wants to keep believing the very intoxicating, and very false, idea on how special he is. You claim you don’t understand very conveniently, Arnold, just like every single other Christian who makes up their own version. You, like them, claim to see how this imaginary friend shows you how special you are, and yep, you are desperate for a relationship with this imaginary friend since you have nothing else. You need to pretend that your thoughts and intents are every so important, that your imaginary friend is waiting on you hand and foot, awaiting your next move with bated breath.
I don’t crave common ground with a childish human being who needs to pretend such things at all. Such nonsense is creepy.
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I hear you.
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“I hear you.”
No, you don’t. You just spew your nonsense and ignore everything else. That’s not hearing or listening. You are not welcome here, Arnold.
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“It’s fairly certain Jesus of Nazareth was here among us. Of course it’s who he claimed to be that’s up in the air. I take it he lived a commonplace life until his 3 year ministry; then he spoke with authority, “Follow me.. I am the way.”
That made Christ polarizing- he attracted commoners, repelled the clergy, and his hometown family accused him of madness. And I believe he lived 100% by faith because that’s how God works. If he’s not for you and your readers, I understand.”
No it isn’t “fairly certain”, not even remotely. There is no evidence for magic jesus or delusional rabbi jesus. At best there is a slightly higher probability of the latter existing than the former, and Christians like you don’t worship delusional rabbi jesus. Christ, being imaginary, attracted no one. The silly promises made by Christians attracted the ignorant and the desperate. And funny per your own bible, this character didn’t demand only faith, that story about Thomas always trips Christians making excuses up, nor did it only supposedly live by faith since gee, it could do magic. So Arnold just does as every Christian does, makes up his own baseless nonsense.
You make up that this character lived a “commonplace life”, nothing more. And per the bible, this character spoke many contradictory things, so it had no authority at all.
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Yes, my view of the Bible is that Christ lived a commonplace life- as God incarnate, as “God with us.” He gave his life to give his risen life to whoever will receive him. That makes perfect sense to me.
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Arnold, like every Christian, you make up what your bible means, and your ‘view’ is no more true than the rest.
“Yes, my view of the Bible is that Christ lived a commonplace life- as God incarnate, as “God with us.” He gave his life to give his risen life to whoever will receive him. That makes perfect sense to me.”
you lie and claim “god is with us” when this god does nothing at all. I’m sure it does make perfect sense to you. That says a lot about you, a human like all other humans who have invented a magical being that agrees with you. It is no different than a child inventing an invisible friend.
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I am wrong a lot and make mistakes and snub God. Still, I acknowledge him a Creator who wants my companionship.
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“I am wrong a lot and make mistakes and snub God. Still, I acknowledge him a Creator who wants my companionship.”
No, you are a human who make up a god and tries to claim how special he is that some magical being agrees with him. It’s nothing new.
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You could tell when Phaeton was ready to bail out. It was when they demanded that we prove a negative. To paraphrase: “Oh, yeah? Well, can you prove my god doesn’t exist? I bet you can’t.”
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Yep. he is nothing new, just one more fraud.
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Dear Vel
“Catholics’ practices of praying to saints is wrong
Catholics also use statues (false images) which is utterly wrong!
Then again the full title is “Roman Catholic” so they continue to practice pagan worship while claiming Christianity
We aren’t the “dirty rags” that Christianity claims
No is Not that Christianity claims “dirty rags” that refer to doing deeds or good works to bribe God
A couple of videos I found the 1st one should appeal to you even if you don’t know Dave Allen
The 2nd video is about the worldwide spread of Christianity
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Oh dear, Graham thinks his Christianity is the only right version. Alas, he can’t show his nonsense is any more true than those Catholics he hates so much. I do love the lies that somehow Roman Catholicism is “pagan”, when its just as Christian as the version he’s made up for himself. And just like Catholics, Graham can’t do what his supposed messiah promised. I guess Graham is just as much of a fraud as the Pope.
Thanks, Graham, for showing that Christianity is just a sequence of small cults, all of which fail in their claims of “truth”. There is no “worldwide spread of Christianity”, just competing cults, trying ever so hard to convert each other. Christianity isn’t a major religion. It’s a bucket of crabs clambering over each other. This makes it amusing, since you hate each other so much, and can’t figure out what the real Christianity is, your sadistic little fantasies can’t come true per your very own fairy tales. You’ll never have everyone believing the same thing under the aegis of “Christianity”. Of course, those sadistic fantasies will never come true regardless; that’s what happens when you make up nonsense.
The bible verse about “filthy rags” is this: “We have all become like one who is unclean,and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy cloth. We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.” Isaiah 64. It’s a set of false claims by an unknown worshipper made to appease an imaginary god. People are their deeds, Graham, so your attempt to excuse the ignorance of your religion fails. I do like the idea of bribing this god. This is what the bible has people doing constantly, with burning animals so this god is happy, giving it tons of gold, precious gems, fine leathers and fabrics, etc to make its temples and churches. Now, why would this immaterial god so covet such things, Graham? Why does this god constantly need money with “tithes”?
I see no links to videos, Graham. David Allen is just one more apologist who has invented his own god in his image, and like you, declaring that his version of Christianity is the only “right” one. Pity you are all, again, frauds.
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Dave Allen’ “Garden of Eden”
Dave Allen was a religious sceptic (according to Allen himself, “what you might call a practising atheist”
50 Countries Sing Amazing Grace ALL OVER the WORLD
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So, you present a video that is mildly amusing and does point out how ridiculous your religion is. I do see that the David Allen I first thought you were mentioning wasn’t the correct one. There is a David Allen who is a failure apologist for the SBC. The other video is people singing nonsense that isn’t true. There are approximately 195 countries in the world. They have various kinds of theists in them, including the many many different sects of Chrsitianity, and they are mostly all hating each other, sure that those “other” theists are bound for some “hell”.
the video about the singing is about covid stricken countries. Gee, millions died. What a complete failure of your god.
Yep, this is less than impressive.
Addendum: 06/15/22 it is also curious that Graham likes aka approves of this comment of mine. Hmmm.
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oh Graham, where are you Graham? I see you liked aka approved of my comments.
Nothing else?
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Dear Vel, Comments on WordPress seem altered somewhat as before they were listed within the comments section. Where approval & like could be done both together or separate.
The last I was able to use that system was May 14, 2022, as now the comments only appear on the notification feed, which only gives the Like option
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they are not altered at all. Approval buttons are only for the blog owner and no one else sees them. You have chosen to like my comments.
Like: “1a: to feel attraction toward or take pleasure in : ENJOY
likes baseball
4: to electronically register one’s approval of (something, such as an online post or comment) for others to see (as by clicking on an icon designed for that purpose)” – merriam webster
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The approvel button along with th like an dtrash buttons are indeed in the back office my blog. But not your resent reply comments, meaning I’m unable to use the actual approve future
Here is a copy of the last time I approved your comment clubschadenfreude
clubschadenfreude
2021·clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com
In the Last days – Note: I have Not Liked your accusing me of lying
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Graham, we’re not on your blog here. You have commented on my blog which is where this is. I haven’t commented in your blog in a long time.
you are making no sense at all.
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What you were expecting Sense?
From me a mere Christian who according to you only believes nonsense
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“What you were expecting Sense?
From me a mere Christian who according to you only believes nonsense”
No, I really wasn’t. You’ve offered nonsense so far, and still no evidence for your god.
this is what you recently started with
““Catholics’ practices of praying to saints is wrong
Catholics also use statues (false images) which is utterly wrong!
Then again the full title is “Roman Catholic” so they continue to practice pagan worship while claiming Christianity
We aren’t the “dirty rags” that Christianity claims
No is Not that Christianity claims “dirty rags” that refer to doing deeds or good works to bribe God
A couple of videos I found the 1st one should appeal to you even if you don’t know Dave Allen
The 2nd video is about the worldwide spread of Christianity”
You are just as ridiculous as those Catholics you hate.
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