Well, folks, I have an invitation from a christian who wants you to come to his blog and see what a bad atheist I’ve been. (memes at the bottom).
“I don’t feel that you aren’t honestly reflecting anything I actually say, nor want dialog, it seems like you just want to be right. If you want to claim victory, go ahead. Please invite all of your athiest friends to come here and read thise discourse and show them how much you won by. That isn’t sarcasm, show them how to defeat my logic and they can learn so much from you. Honestly I believe your conduct will be seen and they will see the truth, that is the real reason I would love for any/all athiest to read both sides of this discourse. I do honestly think you will look foolish, which isnt my intent (but might be a reality), but more so, I would love for them to hear of God’s love.
And comment (that is cordial for all audiences to read) on any of my blog posts by anyone will be approved. So maybe I’ll hear more from you or them? I will respond to them. Please dont feel offended, but I will likely no longer respond to you. If you desire to see it as you bested me, im fine with that. Though I honestly don’t feel like you desire to have any discourse. But I also dont want you to refer anyone here either, because I dont want to use you or make you feel used. You have much more value than just a person that could potentially bring in more viewers.”
and rather than that, here’s some memes:
Club Schadenfreude 
So, if I go there I will “hear” God’s love? I’m gonna pass. I’ve heard enough. 🙂
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yep, it’s rather silly how convince this poor fellow is that everyone will want to agree with him.
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That is my downfall. I have failed to convey my message to you properly, and I am sorry for that.
I do not want you to agree with me (on everything). I am certainly not trying to convince you that Christianity is correct. I do personally have beliefs and opinions, and I am glad to explain my logic behind how that opinion was formed. That was my intent as you came to my forum where I talk about God and assumed you wanted to have a discussion about topics.
Some of my intent was to convince you that the understanding you have of much of Christianity is wrong. Like you said, I have invented my own religion, I am fine with you classifying it as that. I believe the One who created us loves us and I love having a relationship with Him, and long to share His love with others. I don’t really care what you classify it as even if I am a religion of one and the 1 crazy person. It’s something I can’t keep quiet about and will speak for the rest of my eternity. If you have news that you believe is helpful and beneficial to others, you want to share it with them. I understand you have the same passion, which is great. I don’t believe you or anyone can truly have peace without their Creator, but maybe that is why I want to know and understand what motivates you or sustains you?
I understand you don’t like the word “worship” or “religion”. I’m sorry those offend you. To me they are a simple related word to describe what motivates or priorities are for a person. I still don’t know what you are devoted to or your purpose in life.
I apologize for preaching on your forum. It is not my intent to do that.
But I travel a lot for work. I would gladly meet up with anyone who wants to. Just let me know if you live in any major cities and we can share a meal (my treat).
It’s easier to be less combative in person (vs. online) and you can see the valued and loved human face to face and get to know people a bit better.
I understand and agree with Ricky Gervaise Meme. That saying you will pray for someone can seem empty, especially to those who don’t believe in it. This is one reason I would like to meet up and share a table.
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No table needed and again you claim don’t want to interact anymore it’s rather moot.
There is no one christianity. There are millions. So clamiing I don’t undestand christianity is complete nonsense. I understand the many versions and i understand that not one version is true. You have claimed that only yours is true adn that other christians are wrong. This is what all theists do.
” If you have news that you believe is helpful and beneficial to others, you want to share it with them. I understand you have the same passion, which is great. I don’t believe you or anyone can truly have peace without their Creator, but maybe that is why I want to know and understand what motivates you or sustains you?”
You spread your claims since you want external validation, like all theists. Your beliefs are baseless, and people have peace all on their own. Every cult claims that only they can fulfill people, and thats how they get members, false promisess and attempts to scare people into them by claiming that the people *need* their religion. I motivate and sustain me.
“I understand you don’t like the word “worship” or “religion”. I’m sorry those offend you. To me they are a simple related word to describe what motivates or priorities are for a person. I still don’t know what you are devoted to or your purpose in life.”
The words don’t offend me. What is done by those who worship and follow religion offend me when they lie and cause harm. I have no religion and I worship nothing. It’s a shame how theists, especially christians, must keep claiming I have a religion or that I worship things to convince themselves everyone “really” agrees with them.
Preach away. Everyone can see what you are doing. And I’m not any more combative in person than I am here. Considering how your god commits and commands genocide and supports slavery, your claims of a valued and loved human face is just laughable.
Praying is empty since it does nothing at all.
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[QUOTE] One can indeed be an airplane pilot and smoke weed.[/QUOTE]
No, not if you desire to continue to be a pilot. You will have to take a test to get hired first, so you won’t get hired. But you have to continue to take random tests, and you will be fired. So you cannot have both, you are not free to smoke weed and be an airline pilot in the USA. I am not sure about other countries rules but the point I would hope is simple and remains.
I did a quick google search, and AI summarized this for me below
“Plato’s argument on freedom emphasizes that true freedom is not unconstrained choice, but the rule of reason over desires, leading to self-control and virtue.”
Yes, a very secular argument for thousands of years. This isn’t an appeal to authority, it is true. Or was Plato not a great mind?
[QUOTE] A fish can choose to try, which is freedom.[/QUOTE]
I fish is free to try….unless they want to live, then they are not. I don’t understand how you can’t comprehend this. A fish is free to either live, or to jump out, but not both. They are constrained to the water due to their desire to live. They are a slave to life, or free for life, but no completely free.
[QUOTE] And you did make he claim that freedom requires or is addition:[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, I understand you are equating addiction to enslavement. I might be using the wrong words here. When I hear of an addiction, I think of something that requires more of what you are addicted to perpetually. The amount required to give you that ‘hit’ is increased indefinitely to the point where a ‘hit’ is required just to get back to 0, you aren’t even in the positive any more.
So I don’t think freedom requires an addiction, but it doesn’t require an allegiance/slavery/contraint to something. Again as Plato said, “Freedom is not an unconstrained choice”
[QUOTE] I’m not like you. A hierarchy of priorities isn’t a religion and isn’t worship. I don’t worship my hobbies.[/QUOTE]
I understand you don’t like those words “religion” and “worship”. I don’t claim you worship your hobbies. But why do you do your hobbies? Does it bring you joy or satisfaction or pleasure? Do you worship prioritize yourself? Is it to help others? Are you prioritizing others? Family? A legacy? Humankind being a better place in the future because of? What drives you? What motivates you? What is your purpose?
[QUOTE] Funny how you still haven’t shown your imaginary friend exists, so I’m quite intellectually honest when I say your god can’t sin since your god doesn’t exist. [/QUOTE]
My goal is not to show you that He exist. What I am calling intellectually dishonest is when we are discussing the Bible. I am showing my logic as to why God could not sin relating to the relevant topic about freedom. And when I am met with “God can’t sin cause he doesn’t exist” That is what is intellectually dishonest. Again, if we are discussing Star Wars, then lets discuss it.
[QUOTE] You claim yoru god exists and have failed to support that claim.[/QUOTE]
Where have I claimed this? I have given anecdotal examples and reasons explaining the logic behind why I believe. But this isn’t a claim I am making to you. I know you are an atheist. I am not trying to convince you, nor making claims that God is real.
I think an atheist and Christian arguing this is pointless.
What I do like to discuss is the more philosophical questions. And in that I will explain the logic behind what I believe.
[QUOTE] You hate me since you claim I deserve to be punished, whether that is eternally or not.[/QUOTE]
Please show me once where I have said this? I honestly believe you cannot. I hope you cannot. It would not be my intent to ever convey that to anyone.
I have claimed that I loved you, not hate you. That is hard to show online, so I have extended an meal invitation. I never said you deserved punishment, but I have stated my beliefs in reality. I believe you are all ready in darkness, and that you will remain in darkness for eternity, or annihilation unless/until you receive the light freely given.
I have asked that I am curious if you have violated your own conscience and if you think there should be any punishment for that. But I do not think I have ever claimed I desire you to be punished. I desire for you to seek and know Him, that is it.
[QUOTE] You are offended that I dare not agree with you and since your claims don’t’ work,[/QUOTE]
I am more offended when you dismiss a discussion topic (about the Bible) with “God isn’t real”. I get offended when you falsely make a claim that I am making a claim when it is not my intent to make a claim.
But I also am not convinced that you are an atheist or believe what you claim. That whole “”The lady doth protest too much, methinks”” that I said before. If you truly believed God wasn’t real and loving, and you had great hard evidence of this, you wouldn’t stoop to such weak arguments at times. Like when you threw out that “Jesus was against marriage”.
You claim to have great Biblical knowledge, so it wasn’t made in ignorance. I feel such anger and hatred towards Christianity and the Bible and God because of your past. Like that angry teenager I used in an analogy. The fact that nothing good can or has ever occurred from and Chrisitan anywhere shows to me as an angry teenager who can’t even admit to the obvious good that has come from many parts of Christianity. I admit the Church has done horrendous things in the past, I do horrendous things. One shouldn’t convert to Christianity because of the people, but because of God. It is the very reason God came to help/rescue/redeem us. If you were to convert, do it because of God, not people.
If you truly believed God didn’t exist and had big evidence/arguments of this, I don’t understand why you would result to such small evidence/arguments of this.
If you allowed a Christian to explain what their Bible meant to them, as opposed to you telling them what something you don’t believe in means to them, I would believe in your atheism much more. But it feels do me that deep down, you believe in God, and hate the way He decided to run things and desire to tell everyone how terrible He is…..again, this is what the demons did. They knew/believe there is a God who created them, but think they could have done a better job.
I know I use Star Wars a lot. But what if you said Darth Vader was a terrible person, and killing millions of people, and as a kid committed genocide. The movie literally shows him blowing up a planet killing millions, and as a kid he said “I killed them all, I hated them all” (with reference to the sandmen that killed his mother). And what if you said George Lucas’ purpose was to who how bad Darth Vader was.
Or since we also know that Luke could feel the good in him, that he had a change of heart in the end, and turned to the ‘light’ side and was shown as a ghost along with ObiWon and Yoda. So the truth is he was redeemed. The purpose of the message is that a guy did terrible things, but in the end was redeemed.
Do you honestly think it was George’s intent to show Vader as an abhorrent person who remains eternalized as such? No. Or why would he show him as being one of the ghost along side the good guys?
If someone made claims “since they know the script really well” that Vader is a bad guy and never did anything good. Would that make you a bit defensive? Would you also not think of the other person as a bit intellectually dishonest?
[QUOTE] I know I have value and it has nothing to do with your religion.[/QUOTE]
I am glad we agree on something. You have value, and it does have nothing to do with any religion. My belief is that your value comes from your Creator, but regardless of my beliefs or opinions or yours, you are loved and valued.
[QUOTE] It’s highly bizaare that you first say you want me to send people here and then you claim you don’t.[/QUOTE]
I agree with that lol. It is a tension I am honestly sharing with you. One I would desire for all to see God’s love, and I would hope if any of them are truly seeking God, He would reveal Himself to them in some of my words/actions. But I do also believe that if a bunch of atheist were to come and actually read this, even though they would not be convinced of Christianity, they would see how a Christian can have civil discourse and understand some of the points I am making. I would also love to have discourse with some of them and hear some of their philosophical ideas and what motivates them or their purpose. But I don’t want you to feel used. So yes, bizarre, I understand that.
[QUOTE] Oh dear.
Pray hard, since I’ve had literally hundreds of Christians of all versions praying for me to agree with them over the last 30+ years. [/QUOTE]
I almost didn’t say this. I know it is an insult to atheist or insensitive to say this on one hand. On the other hand, if I sincerely believed in prayer and the well being of others, then to not say that would also be an insult.
As Penn Jillete says ““I’ve always said that I don’t respect people who don’t proselytize. I don’t respect that at all. If you believe that there’s a heaven and a hell, and people could be going to hell or not getting eternal life, and you think that it’s not really worth telling them this because it would make it socially awkward—and atheists who think people shouldn’t proselytize and who say just leave me along and keep your religion to yourself—how much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate somebody to believe everlasting life is possible and not tell them that?”
I don’t believe in his version of Christianity, so I don’t proselytize anyone. Rather I believe in the sovereignty of God and I won’t change anything that will happen. I am however again overflowing with the love and praise for God that I can’t keep that silent. I will praise Him for eternity and my eternity already started. I long for others to have a peace that I don’t believe they can have. But maybe that is why I request to get to know what makes your minds tick and where your passions are.
But that is why I said I will pray for you. I am certainly not praying that you will agree with me though, I’ll promise you that. I genuinely think prayer works, I’ve seen it work (though yes anecdotally to you, I am not claiming to have evidence of this, rather testimony) and I honestly desire you to be well, and pray for that, for you to be well. That’s it.
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whoops, sorry, I got confused in which forum is which. This was meant to be a reply to you on mine. You can keep it if you want.
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The point of posting those memes is to show how Christianity makes false claims. The claims in the bible are false, and those events never happened. That particular meme shows how the myth fails in reality. If we are to believe that the exodus really happened, then Christianity has to explain why Moses, and god, were so clueless.
Taking 40 years to get somewhere it would take you less than month is ridiculous. Yes, the bible gives the nonsense that somehow this god had a “reason” which was that the Israelites rebelled against him and he wanted the original Israelites to die before they got to the “promised land” which they took by genocide. Curious how an omniscient being gets upset for things it knows will happen. And why make the children wander? This makes no sense for a “loving” god.
All christians spread this nonsense and more that they invent themselves. I’m sure I do disagree with Bill and David on things. But it doesn’t look like they disagree with me about Christian claims.
Again, I have no need to have dinner with someone who thinks I deserve punishment for not worshipping his god. I have no caricature view of Christians, I know quite a few and I know how they are, with each making up a version of the religion. You may think your version is more palatable. I do not find it so.
ROFL. I live in central PA too, near Harrisburg. Such a small world sometimes. Your problem is that you don’t show love at all. You show the need of a cultist who wants someone else to be in the cult. I do want to have discourse and disagreeing with you is having discourse. I do not forgive and forget. You made choices, and now you must live with them. You may not, but a lot of Christians seem to think since they believe their god will forgive them of anything, everyone else must.
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Small world…..or big God? You said you sought God at one point in time. But I know God is patient and outside of time. Maybe now is Him revealing Himself to you through me (even as flawed as my attempt is). I am not even saying I expect an immediate or soon conversion either. But again, God is timeless, I do believe it’s divine interventions. I would love to meet up with you and-or your family at chocolate world or Kneobels (some public place you feel safe that happens to be close) or a group of your atheist friends id you want to have numbers. If for nothing else to get to know YOU, not some avatar of you, also to show you I’m not (nor all all Christians monolithic or Christians Nationalist or MAGA ect ) or someone who hates you.
I would hope you would except my apology for anything negative I have said, that is not my intent. I am flawed, I am trying, I am human, I get defensive at times, and frustrated when I feel the unheard like anyone, or that my intended message is not being conveyed. I think most of it is chalked up to things are difficult to convey online. No I don’t expect forgiveness from you either. It’s a simple extension of love that I can think of from a stranger. Let me know.
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It’s always rather pitiful when a Christian tries to claim coincidence is evidence for their imaginary friend. I was raised as a Christian. When I was losing my faith, I prayed for help, and surprise, the promises in the bible were no more than lies. Funny how your god isn’t patient or real, since it has no problem in murdering children.
No, dear, your imaginary friend isn’t revealing itself through you. If it’s a god it literally doesn’t need you at all. So your vanity is amusing but worthless.
You shouldn’t expect a conversion at anytime since your lies have failed. I have no need to meet up with a fraud and a cultist. It’s not about feeling safe when it comes to an impotent cultist and his impotent god; few couples are as well prepared for hate and ignorance like my spouse and me. It’s about wasting time a precious resource.
You have met me here, and there isn’t anyting you are missing. You seem to have a common Christian delusion that if you just could talk to me face to face your lies would work better. Alas, they don’t. You are a Christian, and that means you worship a vicious and ignorant god. Why would I want to meet someone like that?
I do not accept apologies from people who have intentionally made the false claims you have. You made your choice and no one has to accept that. I’m not your god, allowing people to abandon their responsibility.
It’s a shame how chrsitians try to own the idea of “love” when all they have is a deep need to try to lie to others and claim that the cult loves them. Love isn’t about ignorance and obedience. Love is literally worthless from a stranger.
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[QUOTE] It’s always rather pitiful when a Christian tries to claim coincidence is evidence for their imaginary friend[/QUOTE]
Read that post again. No claims made by me, but a question asked leaving the reader to answer. I also dont know. It could very well be divinely orchestrated or just a simple coincidence. Since I have no idea, I would not make that claim, and use “question marks” and words like “maybe”.
[QUOTE] , I prayed for help, [/QUOTE]
You’ve told me this. This is one reason I think that it is possible divine orchestration.
[QUOTE] If it’s a god it literally doesn’t need you at all.[/QUOTE]
This is one of the most amazing things. You are right! God doesn’t need me! How amazing is it, that the Creator of everything in the universe, the Sustainer or all, actually WANTS my participation, and wants to help me in it. He wants to do life WITH me!
[QUOTE] I have no need to meet up with a fraud and a cultist….few couples are as well prepared for hate and ignorance like my spouse and me. [/QUOTE]
This is the most perplexing part of you. You claim I am a cultist, and I am fine agreeing with you there, a cult of 1, who claims to be a Christian, but lies and whitewashed the bad parts. BUT, then you claim I hate you, because I am a Christian and your interpretations of Bible is that God hates you so we have to?
Please show me one single evidence of hate from ME. NOT using biblical passages, or ‘evidence’ from Christianity, but words or actions I’ve used that insinuate hate? I have none for you.
I have perhaps painted false dichotomies that force an insult on you, of which I apologize for. Whether you accept it or not, it was wrong, and not helpful. But certainly no hate demonstrated.
[QUOTE] You seem to have a common Christian delusion that if you just could talk to me face to face your lies would work better. [/QUOTE]
No, im sorry you perceive that from me. I thought you wanted to enter into an open minded discussion, and when I met with your lack of open mindedness (is that a fair perception? That you have no desire to understand how I understand the Gospel, and believe you are right?) I got defensive and ‘attacked’ you. So once realizing you have no desire to have a discussion on this topic, I now desired just to meet you, and show what live I can. Perhaps a meal and a hug, no religious discussion necessarily. Though it is my life and part of my being, so my beliefs do often get tied back to God, my intent is not to bring it up.
[QUOTE ]You are a Christian, and that means you worship a vicious and ignorant god. Why would I want to meet someone like that?[/QUOTE]
This mindset is what is wrong with America (the world even). People feel safe and affirmed in their own echo chamber, scared of the ‘other side’, demonizing the other side. In this case the word “demonizing” is in the context of “making out to be immoral, inhuman, and the enemy that needs stopped”. Vs the context I was using it in to say “not desiring God’s will, even challenging it and think you could do better” is the context I used when I referred to you as a demon or Satan. This had no bearing on you humanity or value, worth, or morals. I think by that definition you would even agree, but probably still dont like it because you don’t believe in demons or God and dont wish to validate it. So I will no longer use that word to describe you and apologize for using it.
And also to be clear, I am not saying “you” are what’s wrong with the world, but that attitude mindset sure is. We should be OK with and respect others opinions and beliefs in this pluralistic society. One of the things our founding fathers got right. It’s unfortunate the Christians majority in power has left many ‘others’ so marginalized. And now that, that privilege is lost for Christians, they see it as attacks against them. It is not, its just losing the majority and abuse of power they have always had. So I do understand some of you anger towards Christianity on that aspect.
But please, you cant fight fire with fire or hate with hate. I am not singling you out, but any Christian who may read this too. Please don’t paint everyone with a broad brush and vilify all in that group because of the actions of few or even many.
I also get the argument of “we can disagree on which sports team or food we like, but if you hate someone, I cant simply disagree with that” I completely understand that. But again, show me where I have spewed hate towards you or demonstrated it?
This is why meeting up in person is a desire I have, even with no evangelical motivations, but just to show you, I don’t hate you and neither does God.
[QUOTE/ ]I do not accept apologies from people who have intentionally made the false claims you have. You made your choice and no one has to accept that. I’m not your god, allowing people to abandon their responsibility.[/QUOTE]
That’s fine. You don’t have to nor do I demand your acceptance of my apologies, that’s outside of my control. I wouldn’t go so far as to say “I don’t expect you to accept my apology” because that would be insulting to you, and I fully believe you could.
I think it was Jefferson that had a Bible and an razor blade and cut out all the parts of the Bible he didn’t like. It mostly Jesus’s miracles or anything supernatural. I believe it is still accessible in a library today. It appears you are accusing me of this. Which I understand that as lying. But if I truly believe what I’m saying, that makes me crazy, stupid, or cultist, but not a liar.
I just watched Finding Nemo the other day with my daughter, and I really like that movie, it us a great movie. I think it is a movie with multiple themes. It speaks of not giving up, helping others, being brave, and a fearless/reckless protector of your offspring. What I would NOT consider a them is gratuitous murdering. Though technically that did occur in the beggining. A baracuda ate/murdered a few hundred/thousand? of potential baby egg fish. Would you get defensive or call someone ignorant if they claim that movie was about mass murdering?
What I prefer to talk about and live my life doing is trying to honor God with His help and help others, mend their wounds and seek justice to those oppressed. I dont want to talk about the “genocide” (as you see it), but I do have opinions of how I think you are interpretations are wrong. But I really dont care to discuss that or why I think that, but more the overall narrative. If you think of that as a whitewashed cult, so be it.
I would think you would even like my whitewashed cult because on it, there is a God who loves us and desires for us to love others. Who wouldn’t like all humans to live in that way, even if it was crazy beliefs that led to that?
[QUOTE]
Love isn’t about ignorance and obedience. Love is literally worthless from a stranger.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you there. That is again one of the things that blows my mind so much about God. For if one is to say they love, but don’t know you, its cheap sentimentality. And if someone is to say, they do know you, therefore because they know you, they dont love you, is rejection.
BUT, to intimately know someone despite of what they have done is amazing love. To know how your enemies reject, insult, hate you, and still love, to still sacrifice for them, that is amazing love.
I dont know you all that well. I know you are an athiest, female, never Trumper. You might be a republican, as there are many republican never Trumpers out there. You could be conservative or radical left, or independent. I have no idea what your political leanings are. I know you believed you were a Christian at one point.
I would like to meet you, to show you I can know you and still love you. Though it wouldn’t be me loving you, but God through me.
I’m not trying to “win” anything or convince you my opinions are correct. You can read this and not post it, it’s for you, or post it if you like? Or delete this part or whatever. I write these things for you to know.
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Curious how I reread it and you make claims. “Small world…..or big God? You said you sought God at one point in time. But I know God is patient and outside of time. Maybe now is Him revealing Himself to you through me (even as flawed as my attempt is). I am not even saying I expect an immediate or soon conversion either. But again, God is timeless, I do believe it’s divine interventions.”
You claim that divine interventions are real so your “question” is not a question at all. Trying to retcon your words doesn’t work very well when they are recorded.
and again, you make the same baseless claims. The arrogance and ignorance of christians is always bemusing that they have to claim that there are divine interventions in silly things like people being near each other, but strangely enough this god can’t intervene when it would help people.
ROFL. Yep, your god doesn’t need you and it is amusing vanity when a Christian claims to speak for their god. You now try to claim your god wants your participation, when that is also just a baseless assertion made to stroke your own ego.
Nothing is “perplexing” about wasting time with a cultist and liar. Yep, each Christian is a cult of one since they can’t agree on what their god wants. You have lied to me and think I deserve to be punished by your god. What is that but hate? It’shilarious how a Christian now doesn’t want me to refer to the bible and what it requires of them.
I can have an open minded discussion right here, and again nice of you to try to insinuate that I do not want to have an open minded discussion. So, no, it’s not a fair perception, just another false claim by a Christian.
You understand the gospel as you choose, just like any o ther Christian and can’t show that your understanding is true or any better than any other Christians. You continue to assume I need a meal and a hug, which is just terribly creepy.
Again, you try to whitewash your religion, and that is notable. I have no problem with “demonizing” a religion that says slavery is perfectly fine as long as it isn’t the chosen. I have no problem in demonizing a religion that says that genocide is fine and no one should judge their god on that. Your god, as depicted in the bible, is inhuman, unjust and ignorant.
I can certainly do better than this god. I do not need to kill children for things they didn’t do and had no control over. I do not need to kill people who disagree with me, or punish them . I know that hailstones aren’t stored in magical warehouses and I know that the stars aren’t little lights on a solid dome.
Christians can’t even agree on what this god’s “will” is. So all you have is what your will is, nothing more. And no, I wouldn’t agree with your ridiculous nonsense.
Curious how Christianity is based on not being okay with others opinions and beliefs, and its god says to kill those who have different ones. Yes, our founders here in the US got it right when they explicity ignored the bible and its heinous laws.
I can indeed fight fire with fire and I can stand up against the hate and ignorance your religion tries to spread. That you present yourself as a “kinder gentler” Christian doesn’t absolve you from the religion you follow.
Again, you’ve already shown your hate and since you can’t show your god merely exists, much less what it feels, your promises are just silly. Your god hate quite a few things per your bible, and that includes those who don’t obey it.
Yep, jeffersn did take a blade to the bible and cut out the mythical nonsense in it. Every Christian takes a blade to their bible since they pick and choose what they like in it and ignore what they don’t. For example, I’m going to guess that you would prefer to ignore this part of your bible.
“Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13)
If you continue to believe what you are saying despite being shown otherwise, then it is a lie, a false claim made to benefit yourself.
Your bible is about mass murdering, and this god commands and commits that multiple times through the bible, from the OT and finishes up in revelation. It is about other things too, but genocide is a theme throughout it.
Your god committed injustice when it killed children for things they didn’t do or had any control over, so your claims of seeking justice for the oppressed doesn’t track very well with what your bible has in it. You assume there are “wounds” to be healed, and that is a Christian making an assumption that their religion is somehow needed for a sickness that they have invented themselves.
I’m sure you don’t want to talk about the genocide in the bible. Most christains don’t. It makes them very uncomfortable to confront what their bible actually contains. How do you interpret genocide so it’s “better”?
Your whitewashed cult has a god that demands obedience or else. No evidence that it exists or loves anything at all. Your baseless claims fail yet again. I can love others without your god, so no need for it. I certainly would not want humans to live under a cult that is based on false claims. I have no need to sacrifice independence for the false promises of a religion.
Then you agree with me again about love being worthless from a stranger, when you are a stranger. Your god can’t be shown to exist, so it is quite the “stranger” and all you have are baseless assertions about it. Your claims of “god loves you” are utterly worthless.
It’s notable how you try to claim that I only believed I was a Christian. That is a common lie from Christians who can’t bear the idea that someone can leave the cult.
It’s rather good that you aren’t trying to win since you haven’t. You have made false claims about me, and have failed. If you write these things, they are for me and my audience.
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[QUOTE] As for your baseless claims that your god exists and somehow came to earth, that is also nonsense.[/QUOTE]
It’s not really a claim, but it is my belief.
People can believe in something without having observable/repeatable imperial data.
Though I do believe that, I wouldn’t try to (nor do I think I have) try to convince you of this. If you don’t believe in God, trying to prove anything extra natural things is futile and foolish.
I do however offer philosophical discussion, which you don’t seem to respond to.
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I’ve read the bible and know better than jesus demonstrated love.[/QUOTE]
Im not sure typo or grammar? But what is love to you? Do you have any philosophical thoughts on this? Or is it simply chemical responses?
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Unsurprsingly, if there is a soul then it intereact with the material and yes we should be able to detect it.
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That’s an interesting comment…..
Bring that historically speaking, there were TONs of things we couldn’t detect, that we now can. It doesn’t mean those things didn’t exist.
So what about dark matter? We cant detect, observe, understand it….yet we know its there, and it has to be for our math to make sense. We can only “detect” 5% if the known universe. So does that 95% not exist?
It’s possible we will never be able to. Just S much as its possible we might someday, like cancer was not detectable in the year 100AD. Or gravity. Or UV radiation, or cosmic radiation or…..TONs of things.
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You seem to be ignorant about x-ray films so your nonsense that we cannot repeat measure or prove anything.[/QUOTE]
I’m not really sure what you mean here, so allow me to clarify/ expand.
When a patient has a tumor (this is a medical and historical, verified event) shows up on a scan. And shortly after another scan does not show that tumor….’coincidentally’ there was prayer between these scans, and the tumor is no longer there. How would you explain that? Those who aren’t religious call it a “spontaneous and medically unexplained remission”. Or similar cases with x-rays and broken bones and its classified as “outside the realm of natural biological repair”.
There is numerous documented instances of examples like this. Most would call them miracles. Miracles can’t be proven or witnessed, they are outside of, or extra-nature. Matter cannot be created nor destroyed….so if fish appear to multiply, you can only look at the pre-case of few, and the post-case of many. You can’t witness, study, or reproduce the actual event. Just observe a before and after. Science needs to be able to watch, to reproduce, to measure, to have controls and variables. I love e science, it fascinates me…..but it will never be able to prove or disprove God. I think the more we learn, the more it points to a Creator. The world is so incredibly complex and engineered/designed, like a machine with inputs and outputs. The laws of nature or thermodynamics or physics don’t just come about randomly.
So then we go to “they always existed, like your god”. So again im not trying to prove God. But the
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ER doctors do not witness miracles, but nice false claims.
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Let me rephrase this then, to something that as a fact. There are Doctors out there (ER and others) that see unexplainable things occur. It could be a miracle, it could be coincidence, or an unknown (undetectable) change cause, an anomaly. Most would call that a miracle. But no matter what it is, it can’t be proven.
By its definition it can’t be proven. A miracle is something outside of the natural.
Even Bill made this claim on his blog. Someone prayed, the person was healed. He admits it could have been a coincidence, and it doesn’t matter because the person died from an unrelated something shortly after. But not understanding why or how doesn’t make it not a miracle.
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And since Christians can’t even agree if miracles still happen or not, you have nothing yet again.[/QUOTE]
Im not sure why you are so intent of Christians agreeing on things.
Revelations say “every tribe, tongue, and nation will worship”. Not “everyone of a single agreeable doctrine”
Again, just is the ideal intent of the church (which unfortunately isn’t a reality). Image the world looking at the church, and place where there was no divorce, no anger, vitriol and divisiveness like the rest of the world. Yet, the church has very different backgrounds, experiences, culture, interpretations of the Bible, and if they demonstrated unity in Christ (not doctrine), the world might wonder what they have. And the united Church would heal and mend, and feed, and love the world and practically hrlp them as they were supposed to do, mu h like Israel was supposed to do, that Jesus, did do. Unfortunately that isnt the case with the church.
“One of the more curious characters in the narrative of Jesus’ betrayal, arrest, trial, and crucifixion is Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea. The exchanges recorded between Pilate, Jesus, and the crowds of Jerusalem are fascinating. More than once, Pilate admitted that he could find no crime necessitating Jesus’ execution, and he could not understand why Jesus refused to defend himself. “Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” Pilate said. Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given to you from above” (Luke 19:10–11).
With this exchange, we see the disconnect between Pilate and Jesus regarding the source of true power. Pilate believed power was ultimately political—granted to him by the state and its emperor, Caesar. Jesus understood that ultimate power rested in God alone, and his fate resided with his heavenly Father, not the Roman governor of Judea.
Pilate’s error is the same made by all who worship the idol of politics today. They bow themselves to a king, state, or constituency believing safety and well-being are rooted in securing political advantage. But, the very political power we think will liberate us ultimately enslaves us; we become servants of the false god we ourselves have erected.
This is exactly what happened to Pilate. Although his conscience told him Jesus was innocent and he looked to release him, Pilate did as the people wanted. He ordered Jesus to be crucified. Pilate boasted that his political position gave him the power to free or kill Jesus but in the end, Pilate was beholden to the crowds and their threats. If a riot occurred in Jerusalem he risked losing his political power—the thing he loved most. Because Pilate could not betray his idol, his conscience had to submit to political expediency. At least to Pilate, Jesus was an innocent man whose life he willingly sacrificed to appease the false god of politics.
Unlike Pilate, Jesus was able to defy the crowds, the religious leaders, the Roman Empire, and even his own followers because his allegiance was to his Father alone. He shows us how worshipping the living God leads to true freedom while worshipping a false god always leads to slavery and injustice.”
An interesting philosophical thought. And another example of “being slave to what you worship”. Where does power come from in your mind? You seem to be quite energized or activated negatively about Trump. You think He’s inept, rude, harmful (I’m not saying I don’t disagree with you) and that a different politician would be better? So your faith is in politics and power. You can’t seem to control your anger, its tied to who is in power, almost like you are a slave (not in control, or your actions/emotions are dependent on who is in power) to it. You had a choice, you were free, but you became a slave to that very thing.
As a citizen of America, we have the duty/obligation to vote who we would like and speak our voice. In a monarchy, the king has the power, but also the responsibility. In our society, the people have been given that power, and to forfeit or abjugate that power, that is a sin of omission. Not doing the thing we ought to do. Seeking justice among the oppressed, ect. BUT, since my faith is not in powers of politics or man, though it doesn’t mean to not try, it also doesn’t depend on the outcomes of politics.
1 Corinthians 3:6-7 NIV
[6] I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. [7] So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.
I worship God, not work, or process, or government, or politics, or money, or fame or influence.
Who do you worship? I know you hate or refuse that term. But who is in charge? Someone has to be. What is your faith in? What do you trust can influence things?
In your head, my trust/faith might be in a non-existent imaginary thing. But your faith is in humans? How well has that turned out over the history of humanity?
But even within humanity, is it wealth or political power, or fame that gives one the most ability to influence the change one desires.
What do YOU think has the most influence/ control? That is what you worship? You are giving reverence, or respect or credit, or glory to something. Everyone does. It’s so silly to deny because you are ‘mad at religion’, you refuse to answer simple reality truths be cause words mean things and you can’t seem to face/answer those questions.
Which again, goes back to one of the few actual assertion/claims I do make. That everyone needs God (we were created to), and the only ones that claim they don’t, are those who are too distracted, because distraction is necessary to prevent solitude and silence, scared to face reality, to answer hard questions.
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“Who/what do I worship?”
“Who/what am I a slave too?”
“What is the meaning of life?”
“Do I even follow/honor my own conscience? How much have I strayed from my own beliefs?”
There is a reason solitary confinement (especially over 15 days) is considered torture. People can’t face themselves or answer these questions with any ease apart from God. There are given, nutrients, sleep, all the scientific things one needs to scientifically continue life. Why is it so hard? We are just electrons and evolved cells and chemical reactions.
But why? What is it all for? If not for community, helping others, serving an eternal God that, why? We long to be with others, to pass on our genetics to survive, for our species to survive. So our hope is in an ideal? We worship ideals? That we can make this a better place? Better for whom? Hopefully all. What if we must sacrifice for others to survive or eliminate others for us to survive? What should we do? And no matter the decision (us or others) we must convince or over power others to ensure that happens. We must gain influence/control/power, so our will can be done….and now we are gods. We worship ourself and our thoughts as best and must influence or convince others to join my cause, to worship me as well. Or to worship my ideals. And when we cone across someone with different ideals we must eliminate them or the treat they pose to my ideals? And now we are back to my tribe must survive? Or I just enjoy whatever I want, absolute random freedom, freedom thT has consequences for me and my tribe or others. But in a world were everyone just wants freedom, what about when yours interfaces with theirs? Who wins? Who decides? So one must attain power. So I just go off into solitude and so my own thing….but then my genetics drive to pass on my genes and survive eternally through my offspring cant happen. And I go mad alone in solitude, what is this all for?
Or I simply have faith in God, the One who created us, who loves us, who desires to ne with us and help us. Who always has been and always will be, so we are never alone. We can never be in solitude. We desire to add or contribute (with His help) to His eternal glory. That can be done in solitude, in communities. We love and sacrifice for others. We have faith in God’s sovereignty, so we don’t need to attain power or influence. If we die, He lives on, and so do we, with Him again. No need to get angry or scared, we are never alone, we don’t need to be in control.
This is how Jesus lived. It’s how I try to live, but I can’t on my own. Anytime I get distracted or pulled away from or myself turn away from God, I am now back in the world, with worldly problems or fear, power, purpose, loneliness, facing my screw ups, my past, will anyone accept me, I cant even accept me.
Then Jesus rescues me, and redeems me, puts his ring on my finger and reminds me Im loved, valued child of God, and He’s sovereign, and everything in the universe is once again all right!
I’m not trying to convince you or persuade you into “believing in my God” or proving Him to you, I know that cant be done, nor do I think God really wants us to attempt that.
But I do think I make a compelling reason to wish three was a God, One that existed as I express. A Creator who is loving, sovereign, just, merciful. I think you see how life. Would be better if this Being existed. It’s the wonders of His creation, His love expressed through His image bearers, the stories and testimonies of His children that I think better compelling people. Again, not to prove He exist, but for them to wish He did. And then seek Him, and He’ll meet anyone who earnestly seeks Him….maybe not on their terms or time frame….but then again, anyone who deifies themselves and demands things of God, isn’t exactly earnestly seeking Him either.
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Your claim is your belief. It’s hilarious when Christians try to be clever with words. Yep, people often have beliefs with nothing supporting them. That is nothing to be proud of.
You’ve repeatedly tried to prove that your god exists, so are you just foolish? Philosophical discussions are largely worthless, since they do not show your god exists at all.
Love is concern and hope for the happiness of someone. It is not expecting them to obey you or that you will punish them for not doing that. Love is chemical, and is still pretty nifty.
Unsurprsingly, there were lots of things we couldn’t detect until we got the right instruments. Curous how you’ve had thosuiands of years to detect the soul and still haven’t, even though, as I pointed out, we do currently have something that *should* detect them. Your appeals to dark matter don’t work.
again, no evidence of these magical tumors appearing and disappearing. No cases of broken bones disappearing. Again, you make clais that this has happened and yet you have no evidence; only stories. There aren’t documented cases, that’s the problem.
Same with your bible miracles. They are stories. The fish event would have had repercussions and yet no one noticed it at all. No observation at all.
Science has shown that the claims about this god are false. Unless you make it so vague that it has no characteristics, you have no where to go and a god without characteristics is the same as no god at all. You have no idea if the laws of nature come about randomly or not, you simply declare your god is responsible for them, like every other religion.
Again where are these doctors? You keep making claims that they exist and cannot cite a single one.
I’m expecting Christians to agree since they all claim to have the one and only truth. That they don’t shows that each of you makes up what you want since not one of you can show that your claims are any “truth” at all. You can’t even agree on which version of God is the right one. As for the “every tribe, tongue,…” etc. it has they all agree on one gospel:
“6 Then I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation and tribe and language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, ‘Fear God and give him glory, for the hour of his judgement has come; and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.’”
So, this begs the question: why didn’t your god start with this “eternal gospel” and not let humans mangle it and kill each other over it? Is it this god’s will for murder and suffering in its name? Yep, the church has failed miserably, which means this god has failed miserably and there is no ‘unity’ in a christ you can’t agree upon.
Curious how this god fails with Israel, and now fails with Christianity. It’s notable how religion has failed like politics, make the same promises as politics. As for Pilate, this poor fellow was at the control of this god, per the story, since no one needed jesus dead but this god. It wasn’t Pilates fault, it was your god’s. No true freedom from a god that says worship me or else. And it’s always amusing that worship this god of yours leads to slavery and injustice.
Power comes from various things. Wealth, numbers, etc. My faith is in people and people fail an awful lot. I have no faith in politics or power. I’m not angry but again ,nice to see how a Christian goes back to the same lies.
Sicne your god does nothing at all, all action is up to us humans. We can’t sit on our thumbs and expect yur imaginary friend to act. Happily, we don’t need gods to make plants grow.
I do not worship anything. This is very hard for Christians to understand since their beliefs need for everyone to agree with them in some form. You must claim I worship something to pretend that you are right in your nonsense. Nothing is in “charge”. Nothing has to be. I’m in charge of myself in that I am responsible for my actions and any repercussions. I can influence somethings but not all. I do not pretend some god can influence something if I pray about it.
Having trust in humans isn’t having faith in them, not the kind of faith that believes in the unseen. Humans have been consistently getting better. Your god, well, it’s still stuck being a bronze age idiot. I have no need in faith in wealth, power, or fame. They exist and are tools.
I know your god has no control since it doesn’t exist. I worship nothing since I don’t need to worship something in control. Worship isn’t giving respect or credit, so you fail again. I offer nothing reverence. So, dear, no, everyone doesn’t worship something.
Unsurprisngly, no one needs your god. Nothing shows we were created, or that any particular god exists to do the creating or the needing. You invent nonsense to convince yourself that you and you alone are right, insisting that everyone who doesn’t need your imaginary friend is “distracted”, and doesn’t want to “face reality”. This is the same garbage that christains always spout, that us atheists don’t want to believe in your god since we don’t want to be responsible for our actions. You have no “reality” to face.
I don’t worship anything.
I am not a slave to anything but myself.
The meaning of life is to enjoy it and to enjoy others. No grand reason needed.
I honor my own conscience and that conscience has determined that there are no gods. My beliefs can change depending on evidence.
Unsurprsingly, solitary confinement isn’t considered torture by everyone, but you’ve bought into that nonsense too. It’s the confinement, the concept of punishment, that bothers people, not being alone. Most humans do like being in communities. I don’t. No need to worship a god to help others either. So your blithe and ignorant claims fail once again.
I also don’t’ worship ideals. I can strive for them, but I do not worship them. And nope, we aren’t gods if we interact with people, so your delusions in that way are also wrong. I don’t worship myself, and your consistent misuse of words is hilarious. You are so desperate to convince yourself that everyone is like you that you simply lie.
Yep, you can delude yourself about a god, like billions. That doesn’t make your delusions true. Christians commit suicide, so your lies about never being alone fail. And it’s quite the ste of lies to claim that christains don’t want to gain power and influence. If you die, your imaginary friend dies with you.
Jesus didn’t live so your nonsene fails again. You can lilve on your own like billions do. You are as afraid and as joyfuil and as ignorant and as intelligent as anyone else, no god needed. If you can’t accept you, you need therapy, not some imaginary friend.
It’ also common for christainsa to convince themselves that their god doesn’t want them to proselytize since they find it hard and they generally fail.
Wishign there was a god doesn’t make your imaginary friend real. You have admitted that this is all you have. You have invented a god you like, nothing more. You think it would be better if it existed, but you have nothing to show it does. You make up stories and nonsense to try to compel people to believe in it. You lie about love and compassion.
As usual, you try to claim that this god will show up. It never does. Then you blame the seeker for your god’s failure, by claiming they aren’t earnest. You refuse to admit that your god simply doesn’t exist.
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I’ll answer yuo here and on your blog:
And more false claims. Again, you have simply lied when you claimed that you can’t smoke week and be a pilot. You must move the goalposts to make your claim work and that still fails. That is shameful.
I don’t care what AI says since it simply scrapes the internet and has no idea what is correct and what is not. I also don’t care what Plato said nor do I agree with it, but nice appeal to authority. Plato was wrong about many things, so why assume he was right about everything.
Again, you bastardize the idea of freedom. Choice is freedom and yep, one can take a risk and die with freedom. A fish is free to die too. A fish doesn’t work very well as a stand in for a human who can make educated choices. Happily, I’m not a slave to life if I choose to die.
You are the one who made the claims about slavery, addiction, and freedom. You are indeed using the wrong words since you keep changing their meaning to suit you. You have claimed that freedom requires an addiction, and that one is addicted to what one does. Again, nothing supports that.
You have repeatedly claimed that I must be addicted to do something. Again, you try to move the goalposts when your claims fail. I do my hobbies and having fun isn’t being addicted. Your claims fail. I don’t worship anything. No matter how many times you choose to lie and claim I do, you are wrong. Again, a hierarchy of priorities isn’t a religion, no matter how many times you try to claim it is.
You have repeatedly told me you want me to agree with you and you pray I will agree with you, so your nonsense that your goal isn’t to show me your god exists fails. You have claimed I am intellectually dishonest and have yet to support that claim. Until you can show your god exists, my statement is valid.
It’s hilarious how you keep trying to claim you haven’t said your god exists. That’s false. You have said the following:
““I think it is beautiful that God uses the massively diverse amount of “sides” and perspectives on purpose for His glory. “
“I only strive to be a presenter of one of the millions of sides and encourage others to see their Creator and have Him reveal what side they can be used for.”
“I desire for you to seek and know Him, that is it.”
Trying to play word games to avoid admitting what you have said doesn’t work very well. And trying the “when have I said that” doesn’t work since I don’t need you to literally say “I want you punished”. Your religion demands that I am and you agree with it. So, you hate me since one must hate those that one wants punished if the only thing any non-Christian has ever done is simply not worship your god. yes, I can believe that.
A meal invitation from someone who agrees with what the bible says about non-believers is not worth much. You can whitewash Christianity all you want, but I known what its based on.
I know you are offended that I ignore your baseless assertions. So? Show God is real and I’ll be happy to believe in it. I wouldn’t worship such a paltry god but I would believe in it.
ROFL, it’s great when Christians try to convince themselves no one could be an atheist. Happily, believe what I claim, and your fear of atheists being real is typical. We show that no one needs religion. You’ve yet to show any of my arguments to be “weak”, or wrong at all. Jesus was against marriage, considering it as a poor second choice:
“10 His disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” 11 But he said to them, “Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.”” Matthew 19
Again, it seems you don’t know what your bible actually says. The only hatred I have is against the harm that Christianity has done. Not against me, but others. There is nothing good from Christianity. Humans are good and human and compassionate without and despite Christianity. You claim that “obvious good” has come from Christianity. Okay, show what that good is.
Christianity is the people, since there is no god. Christians can’t even agree on a god, so again you have no more than baseless assertions. And then you try this nonsense about “big evidence” and “small evidence”. Do explain what you mean. Evidence is evidence.
I have had literally hundreds of Christians explain what their bible means to them and surprise, they don’t agree. I’ve allowed you to explain and have shown what you have claimed isn’t true. Again, nice lies that I believe in your god in your need to claim everyone really agrees with you. Strange how you feel okay to tell me what something means to me, and you claim I do that to others. I can describe how pathetic a fictional character is without believing in it.
Yep, that’s what Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader said. So? Like your god, this character killed children for things they didn’t do. They are both fictional and both horrific with no redemption, except a bizarre bit of nonsense with a “son”. Star Wars is a fictional story. You claim your bible isn’t, and that your god is real. Curious how this god hasn’t had a change of heart. It’s unchangeable, right?
the storyline in Star Wars changed over the years, with the characters changing to meet what new ideas the author had. It’s rather like how the bible was changed to make the vicious ignorant god of the OT into a slightly better god in the NT, but gee, it becomes the vicious god right back again in Revelation. It seems I know the history of Star Wars better than you do.
Wow, so you claim I’m right that I have value, and you claim it doesn’t have to do with your religion, and then you claim it does have to do with your religion e.g. “comes from your creator”.
There is no civil discourse when you make false claims about me.
And yet you did say that, and your prayers still fail. Your trying to excuse your behavior doesn’t work. Yep, Jillette said that and I find it wrong. I’ve always wondered if he would say that about every cultist or if he, like Richard Dawkins, has some mistaken belief that Christians should be given some latitude since our culture often equates Christianity with being good. Jillette is an atheist so not a Chistian at all. If you won’t’ change anything, that means your prayers are entirely worthless.
Again, there you go with the promises of peace that you cannot support. So, what *are* you praying for when it comes to me, then? Being “well”? I’m happy, and healthy, so why pray for something that already exists, without your god?
Like all Christians, you claim prayer works and strangely no evidence of that at all. Testimony is worthless and curious how Christians all ignore testimony from other religions, and yet demand that theirs is evidence.
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And more false claims. Again, you have simply lied when you claimed that you can’t smoke week and be a pilot. You must move the goalposts to make your claim work and that still fails. That is shameful.
I don’t care what AI says since it simply scrapes the internet and has no idea what is correct and what is not. I also don’t care what Plato said nor do I agree with it, but nice appeal to authority. Plato was wrong about many things, so why assume he was right about everything.
Again, you bastardize the idea of freedom. Choice is freedom and yep, one can take a risk and die with freedom. A fish is free to die too. A fish doesn’t work very well as a stand in for a human who can make educated choices. Happily, I’m not a slave to life if I choose to die.
You are the one who made the claims about slavery, addiction, and freedom. You are indeed using the wrong words since you keep changing their meaning to suit you. You have claimed that freedom requires an addiction, and that one is addicted to what one does. Again, nothing supports that.
You have repeatedly claimed that I must be addicted to do something. Again, you try to move the goalposts when your claims fail. I do my hobbies and having fun isn’t being addicted. Your claims fail. I don’t worship anything. No matter how many times you choose to lie and claim I do, you are wrong. Again, a hierarchy of priorities isn’t a religion, no matter how many times you try to claim it is.
You have repeatedly told me you want me to agree with you and you pray I will agree with you, so your nonsense that your goal isn’t to show me your god exists fails. You have claimed I am intellectually dishonest and have yet to support that claim. Until you can show your god exists, my statement is valid.
It’s hilarious how you keep trying to claim you haven’t said your god exists. That’s false. You have said the following:
““I think it is beautiful that God uses the massively diverse amount of “sides” and perspectives on purpose for His glory. “
“I only strive to be a presenter of one of the millions of sides and encourage others to see their Creator and have Him reveal what side they can be used for.”
“I desire for you to seek and know Him, that is it.”
Trying to play word games to avoid admitting what you have said doesn’t work very well. And trying the “when have I said that” doesn’t work since I don’t need you to literally say “I want you punished”. Your religion demands that I am and you agree with it. So, you hate me since one must hate those that one wants punished if the only thing any non-Christian has ever done is simply not worship your god. yes, I can believe that.
A meal invitation from someone who agrees with what the bible says about non-believers is not worth much. You can whitewash Christianity all you want, but I known what its based on.
I know you are offended that I ignore your baseless assertions. So? Show God is real and I’ll be happy to believe in it. I wouldn’t worship such a paltry god but I would believe in it.
ROFL, it’s great when Christians try to convince themselves no one could be an atheist. Happily, believe what I claim, and your fear of atheists being real is typical. We show that no one needs religion. You’ve yet to show any of my arguments to be “weak”, or wrong at all. Jesus was against marriage, considering it as a poor second choice:
“10 His disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” 11 But he said to them, “Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.”” Matthew 19
Again, it seems you don’t know what your bible actually says. The only hatred I have is against the harm that Christianity has done. Not against me, but others. There is nothing good from Christianity. Humans are good and human and compassionate without and despite Christianity. You claim that “obvious good” has come from Christianity. Okay, show what that good is.
Christianity is the people, since there is no god. Christians can’t even agree on a god, so again you have no more than baseless assertions. And then you try this nonsense about “big evidence” and “small evidence”. Do explain what you mean. Evidence is evidence.
I have had literally hundreds of Christians explain what their bible means to them and surprise, they don’t agree. I’ve allowed you to explain and have shown what you have claimed isn’t true. Again, nice lies that I believe in your god in your need to claim everyone really agrees with you. Strange how you feel okay to tell me what something means to me, and you claim I do that to others. I can describe how pathetic a fictional character is without believing in it.
Yep, that’s what Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader said. So? Like your god, this character killed children for things they didn’t do. They are both fictional and both horrific with no redemption, except a bizarre bit of nonsense with a “son”. Star Wars is a fictional story. You claim your bible isn’t, and that your god is real. Curious how this god hasn’t had a change of heart. It’s unchangeable, right?
the storyline in Star Wars changed over the years, with the characters changing to meet what new ideas the author had. It’s rather like how the bible was changed to make the vicious ignorant god of the OT into a slightly better god in the NT, but gee, it becomes the vicious god right back again in Revelation. It seems I know the history of Star Wars better than you do.
Wow, so you claim I’m right that I have value, and you claim it doesn’t have to do with your religion, and then you claim it does have to do with your religion e.g. “comes from your creator”.
There is no civil discourse when you make false claims about me.
And yet you did say that, and your prayers still fail. Your trying to excuse your behavior doesn’t work. Yep, Jillette said that and I find it wrong. I’ve always wondered if he would say that about every cultist or if he, like Richard Dawkins, has some mistaken belief that Christians should be given some latitude since our culture often equates Christianity with being good. Jillette is an atheist so not a Chistian at all. If you won’t’ change anything, that means your prayers are entirely worthless.
Again, there you go with the promises of peace that you cannot support. So, what *are* you praying for when it comes to me, then? Being “well”? I’m happy, and healthy, so why pray for something that already exists, without your god?
Like all Christians, you claim prayer works and strangely no evidence of that at all. Testimony is worthless and curious how Christians all ignore testimony from other religions, and yet demand that theirs is evidence.
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My hope is that if you do go there (I assume to read the discourse between me and clubscadenfreude) you would be able to show my short comings as David Horton did. I don’t plan on arguing anyone to Christianity.
I’m sure you think I am crazy (because of the beliefs I have) that wouldn’t be a surprise, but am I conveying my message soundly or clearly. Do I appear as bad as clubschadenfreude makes me apear?
Though I am more than aware I am extremely long winded and you will probably not want to read all that I wrote. So yes it is an invitation to critique me if you would like to read all of that, but I understand if you wouldn’t. I do enjoy civil discourse though and would love to hear what motivates you and how you prioritize your life and hear answers to the more philosophical questions I speak about in our discourse that was linked.
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Touching that he thinks there are “two sides” and that he is the presenter of one side.
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Thank you for this comment. It really has me needing to step back and reflect on my words. This honestly isn’t my thoughts that there are “two sides”. I think it is beautiful that God uses the massively diverse amount of “sides” and perspectives on purpose for His glory. I don’t like division or tribal “sides”. We are all human and have value, we can all contribute to something amazing because of all of our different perspectives and gifts.
If you read my blog you would see that I believe those are all perspectives and gifts from God so that as Paul’s uses the metaphor the hand cannot say to the foot you useless or eye to the hand ect. It is one team used to glorify God in beautify this world and mend those who are hurt and meet the needs.
But I am sorry, I am long winded and will try to keep it short. I just am frustrated that if you read my blog or discourse with clubschadenfreude you truly perceive that I think it is about 2 sides.
I only strive to be a presenter of one of the millions of sides and encourage others to see their Creator and have Him reveal what side they can be used for. Which I have to caution saying that as I believe God loves us intrinsically for who we are, not transactionally for what we can do for Him like our consumeristic society tends to value.
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“I think it is beautiful that God uses the massively diverse amount of “sides” and perspectives on purpose for His glory. ”
those sides murdered each other and murdered other people in their path. So much for “glory”.
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That is an unfortunately excellent point. It show what man will do or will come to without the help of God. And no religion is not the fix to this either. But IF man actually lived the way of God that Jesus summed up with 2 commandments being to “Love God and love others” and that was further filtered by the fruits of the Spirit which are ” love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control”
If man truly followed those things, I think even you would agree the world would be a better place and war could not exist. I understand you don’t think those precepts come from nor were practiced by God. But would you agree on that there would be no murder if those were followed?
You unfortunately could always twist “love” to mean the ultimate well being of a person and many horrendous authoritarians and fascist have used that word to inflict all kinds of horrors on mankind. But if filtered with the fruits of the Spirit, none of those atrocities would be able to take place.
Would you agree those are admirable qualities to have?
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there is no help from your imaginary friend. Your cult is a religion, and you christians each make up what you want to pretend is the “way of god”. To love god requires you to hate others since they dare not worship it. So your cult fails to be lovingn at all.
Happily, no one needs your cult to have these “love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control”. it does take ignorance and arrogance to claim otherise.
the world would be better and surprise, your christianity doesn’t have love or peace or kindness or forbearance, etc. AGain, your cult supports genocide and slavery. Your claims don’t work very well with that.
It’s hilarious how you think it is “twisting” the term love to have it mean the ultimate well being of a person, since yuor god repeatedly murders humans. What does love mean if not that? You seem to think that love is no more than obedience.
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Holy shit!
He claims to arrive at Christianity through “reason and logic.”
We make the same claim for having moved (many of us) from that or another religion to being atheist. If he makes that claim of reason, he is a liar. If he thinks any atheist is going to be moved to Christianity by reason and logic, he is a fool.
We did not get here because we did not want to be Christians. We got here because we did not believe that ANY god exists. We not only had thousands of religions and gods to pick from, but we also knew just how full of shit he and others like him were and are. It’s called street cred.
And, OMG, so many words.
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[QUOTE] If he thinks any atheist is going to be moved to Christianity by reason and logic, he is a fool.[/QUOTE]
You can adress me if you like since I replied to you.
But no I don’t really think I can move anyone to Christianity through logic. Though I’m more than happy to explain my logic for why I believe.
I’m also curious as to the logic of what you believe. Though I dont mean academic knowledge, rather philosophical.
Much of the reason I am a Christian exist outside of the natural or materialistic world. You can test or repeat love, or motivation or priorities or devotion.
As long as clubsch is OK with me being here (I dont want to hijack her post or blog) I can continue on. But if you are curious or desire to continue a discourse, feel free to join me over at my blog. But if she is ok with it, I do t care where I am or we are to discourse.
Though warning yes….many words. And most of those words/letters are typed 1 index finger at a time. Lol. When you have an eternity, it isnt as big of a deal to take some time.
and yes. My meal offer extends to you too if you live near a big city.
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We both have better things to do. You are free to read my blog https://skeptic.home.blog/ and comment as you wish. It (they, really) has been inactive for too long.
Please keep in mind that there is a good chance that I was a practicing Christian for longer than you have been alive.
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I was able to read a few posts there, and I look forward to having a discussion with you there. Thank you for your time.
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Any chance you have had a chance to read or approve/post any of my responses to your blog?
That is the thing about me and “better things to do” with my time. I will be praising God and blessing others now and for the rest of eternity. I will never tire of it, nor chose not to. I might have other priorities and these might be placed on the back burner at times, and it’s possible I might forget and never write again. But It is always a pleasure to glorify Him to all for all time!
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It’s hilarious how this poor dear can’t show his god exists at all and he is a wonderful example of a Christian who can’t do what his jesus promises to his true followers. Per his own bible, he’s a complete fraud.
As for blessing others, curous how that’s as ineffective as prayer is. That his imaginary friend has to be constantly stroked shows how pitiful it is.
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I have had a chance.
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that’s notable that you admit that one can’t get to christianity through logic. That means it is nonsense, and yes, you still have no evidence for your claims. How can you use logic to get to what you believe when you say “But no I don’t really think I can move anyone to Christianity through logic. Though I’m more than happy to explain my logic for why I believe.”
if something is outside the material or naturalist world, by default it doesn’t exist.
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Honestly, what is the point of posting those memes? For example the one about the Israelites wondering the in the desert for 40 years. That really leaves two choices for motivation. Stupidity/ignorance, or jerk/mean spirited. What other motivation is there? You say you know the Bible well, so you know that the reason it took 40 years was intentional, nobody was lost. So you aren’t stupid/ignorant. Though I hate to call you a jerk, but it seems your meme is posted only to illicit an negative response. Poking the bear, stirring the pot, being a jerk. Why else? In the words of MLK Jr., I simply will not hate you. Buy why such anger and hate towards ALL Christians? I understand anger towards many of them. Why paint with such a monolithic broad brush? I haven’t painted all atheists with a broad brush. I know nothing about David Horton or Bill. They might widely disagree with you on many things.
This is why the extension of the table stands. To get to know people and to reduce the simplistic caricature viewpoint of Christians that you have. That is another reason for my posting.
I live in central PA, probably not near any of you. But again, I do travel to many major US cities and I’m not expecting you to post your address online. But if you post which major city you are in, I will let you know next time I am in one of those and we could break bread together. I can’t accuse me of prayer being and empty gesture when I am honestly extending a real gesture of love and it is rejected. How else am I supposed to show love? Other than leaving you alone? Which I am willing to do, but again, you came to my blog and began a discussion with me. I assumed first you wanted to have a discourse and possibly understand my thoughts and share yours with me? Unfortunately it is more difficult online though. I am sure I said things I regret and acted in not nice ways and I apologize for that, as again, that was not my intent. It was to get to know and understand you as a human, and possibly share who I am, as it is not who you paint me to be.
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For somebody who says they don’t want to call names, you sure called a lot of names in this comment.
Wow.
What a great guy you are. What a wonderful witness for Christ’s love. /sarasm
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“Send your friends! No! Don’t send your friends!”
Classic theist shizophrenia.
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FFS. I commented on this asshat’s blog, and he wrote some long ass gobbledygook word salad. You’ve got to see this shit to believe it:
https://seekingod.home.blog/2024/12/20/i-dont-think-the-resurrection-of-jesus-was-necessary/
I replied to his response. I fully expect he’s going to keep trying to justify himself, because he does not understand when his message is being VIOLENTLY rejected.
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He is not given to brevity, but now that I think about it, none of them are.
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To be fair, brevity is not my strong point, either. But I also don’t spew tons of shit in comments that the blog clearly is not about.
This guy is just a self-centered prick who thinks he can win a debate by continuing to play with words and cherry pick scripture.
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well, neither am I. 🙂 It does take quite a bit of song and dance to try to make christanity palatable.
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[QUOTE] that’s notable that you admit that one can’t get to christianity through logic. That means it is nonsense, and yes, you still have no evidence for your claims. How can you use logic to get to what you believe when you say “But no I don’t really think I can move anyone to Christianity through logic. Though I’m more than happy to explain my logic for why I believe.”[/QUOTE]
This is more in reference to Psychologist Jonathan Haidt. He has written a lot about behavioral change and he often uses a metaphor of a rider and an elephant. The rider, which represents our reasonable faculties, appears to have control of the elephant, which represents our intuitive/emotional faculties. In truth, Haidt says, the six-ton elephant does what he wants and the rider is powerless to resist him. Any sense of control by the rider is an illusion. It’s Haidt’s way of saying we are primarily emotional, not rational, creatures, and we make decisions based primarily on deep, often subconscious emotions. Haidt’s elephant and rider metaphor captures Emily Dickinson’s observation that “The heart wants what it wants.”This is why God didn’t just leave a book of knowledge/ logic and expect us to figure it out. He left heaven, became incarnate, and demonstrated love to us. I observe more emotion in yours and some others posts than reason.
[QUOTE] if something is outside the material or naturalist world, by default it doesn’t exist.[/QUOTE ]
This is just silly. Does love not exist? Im not talking with reference to chemical reactions and hormones. People sacrificing their lives for others? Mother Theresa, Van Gogh? Art moves people, it communicates to them beyond the physicsl/materials there. It’s the meaning, the story behind, the emotions and relating. None of those memories are material….do they exist?
But no, you literally can’t prove the super natural, by definition, it is outside of nature. If you had xrays showing a broken arm, and then xrays showing a non-broken/healed arm. You cannot repeat, measure or prove anything. You could assert the “before” xray was mistaken or flawed. But you can’t really prove any of it.
Do you know many ER doctors? It’s hard to find dancing many athiest among them as so many of them witness all kinds of miracles. None of them can prove or explain any of it though.
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Unsurprsingly, Haidt’s claim is unsupported opinion. As for your baseless claims that your god exists and somehow came to earth, that is also nonsense. I’ve read the bible and know better than jesus demonstrated love. Love isn’t “6 “I tell you, to all those who have, more will be given; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and slaughter them in my presence.”’ Luke 19
or “34 ‘Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to set a man against his father,
and a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household.
37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.” Matthew 10
In that Christians themselves cannot agree on what their bible means even with jesus, it’s curious how he failed so badly.
Love depends on humans, so it doesn’t exist on its own. It’s an idea and ideas come about by human brains. Mother Theresa denied medicine to people since she had the delusion that suffering is supposed “good”. So no love there either.
Memories are material, they require the brain. The brain is injured or dies and the memories are gone.
Unsurprsingly, if there is a soul then it intereact with the material and yes we should be able to detect it. Same with your god, it supposedly interacts with the material, so where is it? You seem to be ignorant about x-ray films so your nonsense that we cannot repeat measure or prove anything.
ER doctors do not witness miracles, but nice false claims. And since Christians can’t even agree if miracles still happen or not, you have nothing yet again.
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[QUOTE]
You claim that divine interventions are real so your “question” is not a question at all. Trying to retcon your words doesn’t work very well when they are recorded.[/QUOTE]
You’re right my bad. I meant to say “could”, but left it out. I have no certainty that it is divine intervention….but I do think it could be.
[QUOTE]
and again, you make the same baseless claims. The arrogance and ignorance of christians is always bemusing that they have to claim that there are divine interventions in silly things like people being near each other, but strangely enough this god can’t intervene when it would help people.[/QUOTE]
I can say God does intervene all the time. To which you say “I can’t prove it”, to which I say, nor can you prove it wasn’t. Then we get into disproving a negative ect.
So this is a pointless avenue.
[QUOTE]
ROFL. Yep, your god doesn’t need you and it is amusing vanity when a Christian claims to speak for their god. You now try to claim your god wants your participation, when that is also just a baseless assertion made to stroke your own ego.[/QUOTE]
No, not vanity…in Scriptural truth. Again I know you don’t believe in the Bible, I’m not trying to convince you it is to be believed. But since you bring it up, like star wars or finding Nemo, let’s discuss the narrative of it, not cherry pick phrases. No finding Nemo was not about the mass murdering of hundreds of fish. Can we agree on that? Because if not, discussion of the Bible is futile. Nothing I say will be understood or considered by you, hence, no point in a discussion of a close minded person.
I’m plenty open minded. I used to be quite a bit more fundamental and believed in a young earth creationist ect. I now think that is quite foolish.
So in many many many Bible stories, God purposefully uses weak or deficient humans to accomplish an ‘impossible’ task. Paul explains this a few different times. Expanded on my weakness is His strength, and I’m made weak, to show His strength ect. God uses a man (Moses) with a speech impediment to speak to, and convince a Pharoah to let the slaves go. God has an army of people, but decides to choose only 300 to defeat the other side. He uses a 15ish year old shepherd boy to defeat a Goliath warrior. He uses a fisherman to become one of the most respected religious men who the church is built upon. He uses a simple carpenter to save humanity. Again, none of these stories need to be true, but can you really deny the theme here? That God uses deficient people to do great things? This is so all glory goes to Him, where it belongs.
So no, I can’t say for certain I am speaking for God. My hope and desire is that I am reflecting His goodness, despite being a human who is flawed. But I have been used before, and I praise God for it.
Of course it is anecdotal, but I visited a man who was down and out. He was a returning citizen (a compassionate and more dignifying term for what many refer to as an “ex convict”) who was just fired from his job, was 2 months behind on rent and $700ish in the hole with his electricity bill. He asked our church for help. So we wanted to meet with him, because I genuinely want to help people and show them God’s love. Simply giving someone money can usually just kick the can down the road. And since we have finite resources to help others, and are charged with being good stewards of those funds, two of us met with him.
We asked about his situation, got to know him, prayed with him, shared God’s goodness and love with him. We bought him a tank of gas, made some employment referrals, a meal (I offered a hug, because he was touched by God’s goodness and love for Him) and we paid his rent. Through social services, we were able to get his electricity back on, but elected not to assist with that for the time being.
This man showed up to our church the next service, was in a great mood. He says we changed his life. (I didn’t, God did). Since then (its been a few months) he has found gainful employment, wants to pay his bills (no longer request we do that), has since been reunited with his brother and is working on reuniting with his family who he was dead to for years. He wants to go to school and become a counselor and help other struggling addicts.
I’m sure that could be seen as ‘no God needed’, it was about money or attitude change. That’s one of the few things in my life that I would be more ‘certain’ it was God. But I give God the glory for it regardless. Because in my mindset/world view, God provided our congregation with knowledge and skills to have jobs, to get money, to give some back. Folks volunteer their time and pray to discern where funds should go, and folks are in charge of those various funds, and we meet with folks who need God’s love and help. I was available to help, I don’t really like to do that sometimes, I’m introverted and quite uncomfortable meeting with people. But as God used many folks with deficiencies for His glory, I wanted to also be used and decided to meet with this guy. So I give God the glory for all of it.
It’s not vanity, I don’t want (or deserve) any credit. I simply desire to love God and others, and praise God when I’m able to be a part of His plan or bring glory to Him.
Which is quite frustrating for me in this discourse. I know I fail often at showing His love to you and patience. It possibly at times makes Him look bad. I’m human, I’m flawed, He knows this, but also knows im on a journey like a kid growing up and learning. I’m thankful for His patience and mercy towards me.
The fact He STILL wants to and does use me, despite all of my screw ups, blows my mind and is another example of His amazing love.
Which yes, you could argue why not just ‘fix’ my deficiencies so I don’t need His help? Well for one, then I would get the glory, or think I should, that’s not humble. Also He made us to need Him and glorify Him, so it would actually make my life worse.
It appears that since God could have done creation different, and decided not to, the way He did it was for a reason. So there are 3 conclusions one must come to. 1. God doesn’t exist. 2. It must maximize His glory this way. Or 3. He wasn’t powerful enough to do it another way, or didn’t have enough foresight or wisdom to do it another way. Option, 1, being atheist, 2, Christian, and 3, Satanist.
Though option 3 is a very interesting thought. I’ve pondered about making a blog about it. If God wasn’t all powerful and all knowing….which I think is possible, I’m almost more blown away with how things came about. It kind of negates most if not all your arguments against Him.
First of all, as far as I know, God never says He is omnipotent, or omniscient. People describing Him use those words. But those people also refer to Him as a bird with wings. It’s poetic. In fact, when God ‘defends’ Himself in Job after being questioned, He speaks of tons of wonders of creation, and power over nature and creatures. He doesn’t call Himself omnipotent or omniscient in this case. If I give you my car keys and say you can go anywhere you want. Am I lying? Can you go to the moon? Or the center of the earth? No, and i wasn’t lying. But when people claim God can do all things….it could be seen the sane way. It basically means He can do things that we can’t fathom and that violate our understanding of physics.
Does He actually know the future? In that He has a crystal ball and has seen it? Is He outside of time? I don’t know. But when one has such h immense power and knowledge (even if not all knowledgeable) , one could use that knowledge
and power to influence things so what you said will happen, will happen.
I don’t just spout religious dogma or pithy clichés. I believe what I speak, fail, but try my best, and I’m very open minded and don’t make many claims of certainty. The only claim I do make with certainty is that God is loving, just, merciful, and righteous. Everything else is all perspective of what God reveals to you. I have reason for believing certain possibilities, and Ill tell you why I believe what I believe. But I don’t make ANY other truth claims. For you to keep accusing me of making other truth claims is patiently false and probably due to misinterpreting something I wrote.
But I also don’t need to believe He is omnipotent or omniscient to worship Him. I worship Him for many reasons. The wonders of creation, blows my mind. The complexities of microscopic scale, or astronomic scale the ‘programing’ that occurs, code and logic had to come from somewhere.
I believe in the potential of God ordained evolution, where the evolutionary process occurred from life placed on earth. But the faith it takes to believe in every complex thing we have, all the engineering and ‘machines’ of nature came from nothing, or really dense molecules is way to far of a stretch for me. Something has to design/engineer the electrons to orbit the atoms, to tell the molecules to create bonds and elements, create forces like electricity and gravity…The fact that 95% of the “known universe” we can’t even fully comprehend like how the brain works or cells or all of those complexities we are still learning just how little we know, the more we know. Then you still have 95% of the universe of dark matter that we know nothing about, but we know its there and is required to exist for our math and physics to work. But I’ll try not to go too far of the tangent of that tangent.
I worship Him for His love and provisions. He guides me, protects me, teaches me, and encourages me.
I worship Him for His knowledge and wisdom He allowed us to acquire or reveals to us.
Most importantly, I worship Him for who He is. Not what He has done. And I wouldn’t be able to if it wasn’t for Him, His character fully displayed in the person of Jesus. Just like He loves us unconditionally, intrinsically for who we are, not because of what we have done (which isn’t much) or in spite of what we have done (the bad things). I am slowly being transformed by the renewing of His Spirit to be like Him (in character), and that allows me to love Him for who He is. Though He has done so much for me, it’s hard to to worship and thank Him for those things too. Like I try to love others for who they are.
Which also why I have to thank you for your responses. They cause me to reflect on my beliefs and experiences and deepening my communion with God in ways I probably wouldn’t have if not for this discourse.
But if God wasn’t all powerful, just a being who created everything we are aware of and has limited power and strength to change things or intervene. Like in a video game, has to recharge after a massive power use. If this God created us to live the most abundant life we can, and His assistance and accompaniment is the best way to do that. If He created humans with free will, and can only manipulate so much. Saw that the only way to save us is to leave the glory of His home, live amongst the people He created, the same ones who rejected and insult Him, or don’t even believe in or think Him. Live your entire life being humiliated by them, and serving and loving them, then dying a torturous death for them. Because you loved them that much! I don’t think is the case, but its almost more amazing if it was.
[QUOTE] You have lied to me and think I deserve to be punished by your god. What is that but hate? [/QUOTE]
This is absolutely false! I never once said you “deserve” to be punished by anyone let alone God. Show 1 quote of me saying this?
I’m responsible for my actions. I can’t say whether others deserve it or not, that’s not my choice or opinion. But I do think I deserve punishment.
I DO think you WILL continue to be in darkness for eternity, IF you don’t request the light. But reality of what occurs is very different than what my desires are.
I’ve also asked if you, if you think you deserve a punishment for violating your own conscience. Have you ever violated it?
[QUOTE]
It’shilarious how a Christian now doesn’t want me to refer to the bible and what it requires of them.[/QUOTE]
I guess that is “crazy”. Like I’ve tried to explain to you, I’m not a ‘Christian’ of your past and certainty not one of Hollywood of pop culture. I am not religious. I am not a fan of religions.
But I missed what you are quoting, so im not sure what verse you are referring to you acusing me of ignoring what it says is required of me.
But I’d guess it’s probably something out of context, like mixing fabrics or hating my brother something like that.
I don’t see the Bible as a rule book that requires me to follow it and read it literal. I see it as a window with which how to see God collectively and in context. But everything I strive to do should be non-contradictory or the 2 greatest commandments facing God with all my being, loving others, and within that anything that is not a fruit of the Spirit.
[QUOTE]
You continue to assume I need a meal and a hug, which is just terribly creepy.
[/QUOTE]
No, I don’t assume you need a meal. But traditions of humans throughout history, is breaking of bread with another as a loving, relatable act. It communicates I love and I value you (not I eat at the table while you get my crumbs or are inferior to think you could eat with me).
You rightly say something like “love without actions or knowledge is just words” and I agree. What else could I possibly do?
Lol at the hug. Sure, I get how that can sound creepy. And I’m honestly not a hugger, never was. But I’ve seen videos of people hugging others who are hurting, ans there is some cathartic healing powers in it, slightly, if not completely. And though I’m not a hugger and it makes ne feel uncomfortable, I more than willing to hug someone if it can help even in the slightest. If nothing else, like the table, it leveling. But just as Hod doesn’t force light on anyone, I wouldn’t force a hug on anyone. My hug, and His light, is an offer, not a demand.
You (and more so bubbly) seem so angry and hurt, and that’s why I offered a meal and/of a hug. Bill on the other hand isn’t anywhere near as bitter seeming.
[QUOTE]
I can certainly do better than this god. I do not need to kill children for things they didn’t do and had no control over. I do not need to kill people who disagree with me, or punish them [/QUOTE]
If a child thought parenting was easy, or a citizen though a president’s job was easy, or a private though a general’s job was easy…..i would say they are ignorant and too simple minded. Those words have definitions that define exactly what they would be doing, they aren’t insults.
Or if a human actually thought they could do better than God….
When a general goes to war, soldiers die. When you play chess, you lose pieces. When you are a president, or king, people die because of decisions you made, when you are a CEO, people lose money, families, health ect.
Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
It’s no where near as simple as you make it. And this is just one military unit, or 1 game, or 1 nation. Think how much more complex the entire world is, or universe. And then all of history, and people with free will.
No general desires for their troops to die. But many are willing (the burden of command) to let them die in the interest of mission success.
Now I didn’t create the universe, so I can’t say why God does or doesn’t do what He does. BUT, He has demonstrated an amazing sacrificial love and mercy towards so many. NOT just ‘His Chosen’ as you like to say. Rehab was not Jewish and was a prostitute. She is in Jesus’ lineage. Saul/Paul murdered or approved of and hunted down Christians to kill them. He became the one who wrote most of the NT. The amazing thing about God is that He makes flowers/beauty from ashes. He redeems and restores.
Have you ever heard of Namaan? A servant of the enemies king. He actually had an enslaved Israelite girl, that’s how he heard if God and knew of Elisha. God heals Namaan. Do you think there weren’t a ton of Israelites that had leprosy too? Why heal the enemy and not your own people?
God doesn’t show favoritism! He cannot be bought or bribed or controlled like other deities. He causes the sun to rise on the righteous and the wicked. His “chosen” ones were not special, or better than others or valued more. They were just that, chosen. Chosen to do a mission, chosen to be a blessing to the rest of creation.
If a teacher “choses” a line leader, it doesn’t make them better or more valuable. But it needs done by someone, and so 1 person is designated or….chosen.
So I guess theoretically, you could even apply this to Him. You say He did genocide in the past, but now saves anyone who desires. You could look at Jesus as the ‘flowers’ from the ‘ashes’ of God. I don’t believe that, but I’m fine if you wanted to.
So you don’t like God, or your understanding of Christianity or your understanding of the Bible. But what negative thing can you say about Jesus? I get it, you don’t believe in Him, but within the confines of the Bible, is there anything you don’t like about or agree with Him? Not quotes out of context either, like telling us to “hate our brother” but the way He lived. Giving up His free time to do nothing but heal. Allowing kings and governors to boss Him around, allowing others to ridicule him, lie about Him, spit on Him, shame Him. Dying on a torturous cross for no good legal reason. Loving the outcasts and telling them if their worth. He didn’t kill children for things they didn’t do and had no control over or kill people who disagree with him, or punish them. Is there anything you don’t like about Jesus?
You know the word used to describe eve as a helper in Gen 2:18? Ezer- H5828. In Hebrew. When you hear of a “helper” our society usually thinks the helper as a second to right? The master is the master and the helper helps the master. So another way to say that, is the helper is submissive to the master…..which this gets twisted and perverted and exploited unfortunately, and men treat them like a WORLDLY helper or inferior.
But just like everything in God’s kingdom seems to be upside or opposite of the ways of the world (the last is first and the first last ect.) Here is another way God’s kingdom is opposite. Ezer, is used a bunch throughout the Bible, mostly in the Psalms. And guess who it is referring to? Yep, God. The Creator of all, the One we worship is our Ezer, our helper.
So is it possible that a helper instead of being a lesser important or submissive one, is actually the more important, stronger one? A helper is the reason the man is able to achieve success, just as God is the reason Israel was able to thrive.
[QUOTE] . I know that hailstones aren’t stored in magical warehouses and I know that the stars aren’t little lights on a solid dome.[/QUOTE]
Something else we agree on…..us and at least 50% of Christians. It was the clergy after all, who had the most education and money and free time, and curiosity, and enjoyed the sciences. These were the ones who first challenged the geocentric model or the young earth concepts.
[QUOTE]
Curious how Christianity is based on not being okay with others opinions and beliefs, and its god says to kill those who have different ones. [/QUOTE]
Name one instance where God punishes anyone for their beliefs/opinions? I’ll name a bunch where God punishes those for the horrible actions resulting from their beliefs.
Sure there is historical examples of some Christians doing this, but God never does this or commands this.
When God commanded Genocide in the flood, it wasn’t because they had different beliefs. It wasn’t orthodoxy, but orthopraxy. Ortho being “right” cozy being doctrine, praxy meaning “practice”. There were doing or practicing the right things. They were exploiting, abusing any killing their fellow man.
Or the genocide of Sodom and Gomorrah, again riding the Earth of people doing terrible things. Not for their beliefs. It actually says why in Ez 16:49-50 “Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.” Though their beliefs are probably what lead them to doing such terrible things.
In the case of Jericho or those ‘genocides’, it was to eliminate the people of their (unsightly occupied) land. They weren’t doing good things either, but it had nothing to do with their beliefs. Though their beliefs are probably what lead them to doing these terrible things.
The abused children, others, sacrificed them and were punished for it.
Even Annanias and Sapphira all they did was lie right? And we’re struck dead. They weren’t forced to give anything. But wanted to look pious, maybe make others jealous? So they said they would give it all, but withheld some. Their beliefs, their faith was that money was important, they worshiped money, and were punished for the act of lying resulting from their beliefs, NOT their beliefs. But as a good Father doesn’t withhold the rod to the child they love, and the Father having dominion over this life and the next, its quite possible that punishment led to them being corrected in the next life.
[QUOTE]
I can indeed fight fire with fire and I can stand up against the hate and ignorance your religion tries to spread. That you present yourself as a “kinder gentler” Christian doesn’t absolve you from the religion you follow. [/QUOTE]
People can read and interpret all kinds of things from all kinds of religions. It doesn’t mean that religion is bad or promotes those acts. It’s understandable you don’t understand (or it seems care to) understand the OT or the NT. Though you might have more of a leg to stand on if you were just speaking of the OT. But where in the NT is there any hate commanded? Even where is speaks of slavery being potentially acceptable, it still isn’t commanding it.
[QUOTE]
Again, you’ve already shown your hate…[/QUOTE]
Where? Please quote it for me.
[QUOTE] and since you can’t show your god merely exists[/QUOTE]
I am not even trying to prove my or any god exists. I am simply sharing anecdotal and testimonial experiences that I believe God played a role in. I am also explaining the amazing love God has demonstrated. But I am only explaining a story, as one would dive into a movie or book and break it down. I have never tried to prove God to you, that is foolish. NOr have I used any Bible verse to ‘prove’ His existence. That is foolish, you don’t believe in the Bible, why would I use it to reprimand you or prove anything to you?
I am simply trying to explain that Nemo was a story about a fish who was told it can’t do things, it got courage to do many things, and so did the dad who was so anxious, and overcame that too among many other things. And I all I hear from you is it was a movie about genocide or mass murders…..though those things technically happened, it is extremely clear to most, that is not what the movie was about. But 99% of your retorts are how that is what the movie was about, or, the movie is just a story and isn’t real….
[QUOTE] Yep, jeffersn did take a blade to the bible and cut out the mythical nonsense in it. Every Christian takes a blade to their bible since they pick and choose what they like in it and ignore what they don’t.[QUOTE]
This is why I don’t use just one verse, or need to take out just one verse. But when you look at the main narrative, it makes it much more clear. The main narrative is supported by TONS of little isolated verses and stories, and there are very few (that I think you are taking out of context) that go against that narrative. But even if not taken out of context, we are talking 20-30 events/verses, compared to 1000-5000 events/verses that follow that main narrative. And then you even have the ‘main character’ (Jesus/God), says “36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, g“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And ha second is like it: iYou shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 jOn these two commandments depend kall the Law and the Prophets.””
That is what the main narrative is, love.
[QUOTE]
For example, I’m going to guess that you would prefer to ignore this part of your bible.
“Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13)
[/QUOTE
No need to ignore it. It was clearly again, said to a specific group of people, during a specific time in history. None of that applies to anyone today. It is not a command or endorsement for anyone to do anything bad towards another.
I could explain why it was said, and I think rightly justify it, but you would argue it, and it doesn’t even matter. If you are using it to look at God’s character as a whole, through-out all of time and want to call it a blight, sure. But looking at yourself. I assume you have not killed anyone, but you have also not been in charge of a nation like a King, or a species/universe as a God is. Again, its mostly you speaking in ignorance. It is the burden of command. One who is in charge of many, (especially when those under your command have free will and folks who do have bad morals or ill intent (whether you want to call it “evil” or not, you have to admit there is some tiny part of a population since the beginning of man that has bad characters)) is going to probably do things. It is interesting that you think you could do better. Have you ever been in charge of kids or hundred of troops or 1000’s of constituents, or a nation? Ask those leaders, it probably isn’t easy to keep the well being of the masses.
[QUOTE]If you continue to believe what you are saying despite being shown otherwise, then it is a lie, a false claim made to benefit yourself. [/QUOTE]
What exactly are you showing me? I believe God is loving, incredibly loving, the author and spring from which all love stems from. He showed this by despite being the Creator of all things, being rejected by all, being insulted, credit stolen, shamed, hurt, having His creation mocking Him and causing all kinds of injustice to other parts of His creation. Coming to this Earth incarnate, to be WITH His creation, to redeem them and it, not through mighty powers and coercion or force. But through humility, love, compassion, and sacrifice. How is me believing that a lie or benefit me? It is because of my belief in this that I am also charged to deny myself and suffer for the benefit of others and the glory of God. That I do again, fail quite often to do this. Life is hard, I am on a journey growing and learning. God is helping me through discipline, encouragement, trials, comfort, and love.
[QUOTE]
Your bible is about mass murdering, and this god commands and commits that multiple times through the bible, from the OT and finishes up in revelation. It is about other things too, but genocide is a theme throughout it. [/QUOTE]
Really, throughout it? You don’t feel a bit disingenuous saying that? You can argue it is commanded and committed genocide a few times in the early part of the OT. First to conquer a land, then to keep that land. Not even expanding it. Like any or all emperors or powers that sought to take over the world and expand their territory. The Israelites are the one nation that was told the take over a specific piece of land, and stay there and do not expand.
So again, not exactly the picture you are painting. Not a theme throughout it, but a specific command and commitment, for a specific people in a specific area, during a specific time. And I will even give you that there was genocide commanded and commited…..but no one can honestly try to push the lie that it was a repeated or main theme throughout the Bible. Maybe a repeated theme from Joshua through 2 Kings. But even then, only Joshua, as those other books are them defending the land, not even much conquest. Still very incorrect to call it a main theme.
[QUOTE]
Your god committed injustice when it killed children for things they didn’t do or had any control over, so your claims of seeking justice for the oppressed doesn’t track very well with what your bible has in it. [/QUOTE]
Have you ever heard of collateral damage? If you are calling God out as imperfect. Why not hold Him up at least to any other General or King or Emperor. Were any innocent people ever killed? Were they terrible people for that? Or was the overall outcome better? Were the masses better off for the sacrifice of the few?
It is odd. It is almost as if you desire God to be perfect according to you, and if you find any fault, He is a failure. Which is odd, because you don’t believe He exists. But if a being did exist who wasn’t perfect, but did all the amazing things God did do, I wonder how you would judge that being. If you are going to give credit to this being for the genocide and terrible things, you must also honestly give credit for all the amazing things done. If this hypothetical being created everything (even if this being used the evolutionary process to bring these things about), blessed us with amazing nature, physics, universe, incredibly complex creatures, the natural healing abilities humans do have. I mean a quick tangent…..You know we have things oxidizing us daily on microscopic levels right? We have evolved to have food/nutrients, that have anti-oxidants in them, to counter act those or ‘heal’ us daily. Restorative sleep, it is AMAZING all the ways we combat or delay death daily…… But yes, all those complexities, how we heal ourselves, survive, thrive, pass on information. Mind blowing complexity. So trillions upon trillions of amazing things to help benefit trillions of us throughout time. And then yes, a few billion killed through collateral damage or mostly just natural order or other parts of your creation ‘going rogue’ and killing others. And not interacting too much so as not to allow us to ‘do our own thing’. But interacting sometimes to prevent/reverse some of the bad things from nature or bad actors. Why are those chosen to be helped vs others? I don’t know. But it seems both the wicked and the ‘righteous’ are helped. The sun shines on both of them, beneficial nutrients are provided for both of them. The ‘collateral good’ is multitudes of exponents higher thant the collateral damage. So it seems this being doesn’t want to intervene too much, at least on a wide scale, but does more on individual scales.
If you really imagined the God of the Bible as the creator of all things over all time, I think you would see how silly your arguments are about some ‘genocide’ instances.
But if you don’t believe He created all things, and you won’t give Him credit for that. You can’t really give Him grief over a bit of genocide. It’s quite unfair.
Its also kind of the opposite of unfairness God shows by saving us. If He did create us and we did reject Him and jack up His creation and steal His glory, He would have all the rights to punish us or do away with us. But He doesn’t hold it against us, if we simply and humbly admit the truth. If we take a step back and look at what we did to Him and His creation, and see how many amazing blessings He gave us, and try to beat ourselves up about it, or feel remorse. He will catch us quicker than quick, lift us up, restore us, and redeem us, and take away any and all guilt, and transform us to being who He wanted us to be originally.
Like the Prodigal son. He lived in the Fathers amazing house. But couldn’t realize how amazing it was. It wasn’t until he was at rock bottom that he remembered or was able to see things he couldn’t have seen in the past (kind of a kind sight 20/20), return begging to be a servant, yet being met with a ring on his finger and welcomed back home! Sin is the blessing God allowed us to experience in order to see how amazing He is. It wasn’t a mess up of His plan, and Jesus is was not plan B. It was known that before time man would not be able to fathom or perceive His glory until we were able to sin, to be redeemed and transformed by Jesus, and display His character through Jesus.
[QUOTE]
Your whitewashed cult has a god that demands obedience or else.
[/QUOTE]
Nope. It is simply a loving Creator that desires to give hope to our despair and light to our darkness, but won’t force it on us. If you don’t want to the light, you will remain in darkness.
Obedience isn’t demanded either. After allegiance is given, it is given for the reason that one believes the King is a good King. Those in the kingdom desire to see it flourish, and it will flourish if one does obey. And we are to be ambassadors to those not in the kingdom, to bless those as we are blessed and to attempt to show them or give testimonies or anecdotes about our experiences and how we long for all the be blessed and part of this kingdom.
In fact unfortunately some abuse this fact that obedience isn’t demanded. Technically all of your sins are erased and no amount of obedience is required for this fact to be untrue. But, if you haven’t seen the light, and do not wish to be a part of the kingdom, nor give allegiance to the King, you won’t want to be there. Heaven is a place where God’s will is done. “If you don’t want God’s will, Heaven will be Hell for you”.
If someone has allegiance, they will obey, but from their own heart and desire to further the kingdom and praise and please the King and love others and bless others. Allegiance is required, not obedience. Obedience is a symptom or result of allegiance.
And you aren’t forced to have allegiance either. The life outside the kingdom is punishment enough. But no need to keep those alive who don’t want the light. So annihilation makes sense to me. If you don’t want the giver of life or light, it will be taken back as requested.
[QUOTE]
No evidence that it exists or loves anything at all. [/QUOTE]
I’m not trying to provide evidence or arguing reality. Quit arguing with ghosts of your past.
I’m simply explaining a story. And within that story (not reality) there is TONS of evidence of love and existence. I mean, it begins with this Being creating everything. So plenty of evidence this Being exist within this story.
[QUOTE]
I can love others without your god, so no need for it. [/QUOTE]
Sure you can. What is amazing is to love you enemies (those who hate or harm you or your loved ones) or forgive them. You said it yourself, you won’t even forgive me or love me. Could you imagine had I actually harmed you or one of your loved ones? Imagine loving or forgiving me then? THAT is God. THAT is amazing love! Good luck doing that without God.
[QUOTE]
I certainly would not want humans to live under a cult that is based on false claims. [/QUOTE]
Hey, me neither! Chalk that up to another thing we have in common. I guess that is what makes a cult, you demand others believe certain things? I don’t demand anyone to believe anything. I desire for them to seek God and believe what He reveals to them. And if they don’t believe in God, I do my best to pray for them and bless them in any way I can. I offer to meet up with them incarnate/face to face/in person, and tell them how they are loved and valued intrinsically. Not for anything they have done, or could do, but just for who they are.
[QUOTE]
I have no need to sacrifice independence for the false promises of a religion.[/QUOTE]
Then I have the good news for you. You don’t have to give up any independence! More good news/Gospel, is Jesus Christ is King!
That’s the amazing thing about Jesus. I still fully have my independence. I can do whatever I desire. The thing is, He is transforming my desires to align with His. I have given allegiance to His kingdom and desire to further His kingdom. But not further it through ways of the world, through power, coercion, manipulation, exploitation. But through love, sacrifice, and humility.
[QUOTE]
Then you agree with me again about love being worthless from a stranger, when you are a stranger. [/QUOTE]
I have tried to not be a stranger. What more can I do?
[QUOTE]
Unsurprsingly, Haidt’s claim is unsupported opinion. As for your baseless claims that your god exists and somehow came to earth, that is also nonsense. I’ve read the bible and know better than jesus demonstrated love. Love isn’t “6 “I tell you, to all those who have, more will be given; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and slaughter them in my presence.”’ Luke 19 [/QUOTE]
I mean, that is a parable. It isn’t a command nor recommendation. Any king in all of history, when you offend a king or he requests something of you, and you fail, or you try to usurp their authority…it’s pretty common to be slaughtered in their presence. If you really want to play this out though…..since it is a parable, or a story. We could speculate on all kinds of things. I have heard of some begging for mercy before a king (a humble person), and a king sparing their life. And I have heard of those who refuse to beg (a prideful person) who is prideful to the death.
Jesus also said “53Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you”
He probably said that to challenge them. There were masses who were following Him, mostly for what He could do for them. They didn’t want Him, they wanted His things. So He was possibly thinning the heard, see who really wanted Him.
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Jesus said many odd seeming things for many reasons. But His main themes, and demonstrations were love, sacrifice, healing, humility and submission/allegiance to God, and dependence on God.
But to claim that this is Jesus not demonstrating love by that parable is ridiculous. Like if a parent is telling a story of the boy that cried wolf, and ends up with the child being ripped to shreds by the wolf, and you saying, the evil parent wants kinds to be ripped to shreds by a wolf, how unloving.
[QUOTE]
or “34 ‘Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to set a man against his father,
and a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household.
37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.” Matthew 10
[/QUOTE]
Yes, hard things. But again, look at how He lived. He is simply saying, all things are a blessing from the Creator, so nothing in creation should take priority over the Creator. This is the 1st commandment. Any good thing, that becomes an ultimate thing, is a bad thing (idol).
[QUOTE]
In that Christians themselves cannot agree on what their bible means even with jesus, it’s curious how he failed so badly.
[/QUOTE]
You don’t need to understand or be able to explain the harder verses to follow the main narrative. I also think God made some verses and concepts unclear to cause different perspectives. Because if EVERYONE read it the exact same, you would have ‘false’ unity. You would be united through common belief in this one understanding and interpretation. Revelations says “every tribe, tongue and nation, will bow down”. It doesn’t say “everyone of the same understanding of a specific text”. This is a willing bowing down and allegiance to the One who unites us. We are united in Jesus and the demonstrated love of God and atoning work on the cross and the desire to further His kingdom under His order, DESPITE our different culture, backgrounds, experiences, interpretation ect. This is why it perplexes me (or possibly illuminates to me) why you call it a cult. It’s the opposite of one, or should be. And this is also why I don’t tell you what to believe. We are told there are hands and feet, and collectively all the distinct and different people have different gifts and perspectives to bring about the flourishing of His kingdom.
[QUOTE}
Love depends on humans, so it doesn’t exist on its own. [/QUOTE]
LOL, ok. And if a tree falls and no one hears it, does it make a sound?
[QUOTE] It’s an idea and ideas come about by human brains
[/QUOTE]
That is an interesting statement. So animals don’t have love? Only Humans, that were perhaps, created in God’s image? Yes, I agree. We have a desire for unity, purpose, justice, love, order, and creativity all from God. To desire for the well being of another even if it sacrifices us or our tribe, or or progenation, so kind of opposite of evolution or the survival of the fittest. Yes, that is what sacrificial love is, that all humans have, but is corrupted and not all exemplify.
[QUOTE]
. Mother Theresa denied medicine to people since she had the delusion that suffering is supposed “good”. So no love there either. [/QUOTE]
You seem to do the same things with God. Nit pick the tiny things you don’t like, while disregarding all the amazingly positive things they did do? If Mother Theresa never loved or sacrificed herself to go there, would they have been better off?
I you go to a casino and the person loses 10$, you like to ignore the millions they won there, and claim how unlucky they were when they lose $10?
[QUOTE]
Unsurprsingly, if there is a soul then it intereact with the material and yes we should be able to detect it.
[/QUOTE]
I’m sure there were people that said this about our microbiome or brains a few thousand years ago….Just because we haven’t yet, doesn’t mean we won’t ever.
But also, we can’t really measure love. We can see parts of the brain and neurons excited when someone is infatuated with another, or chemicals released when touched by a loved one ect. But how do you measure one deciding to sacrifice their well being to help another, even if that other was an enemy?
[QUOTE]
Same with your god, it supposedly interacts with the material, so where is it? [/QUOTE]
Well, you can see examples I showed of helping others. I did that because this God interacted with me, and guided me to assist in them, to love them. So you chalk that up to my brain, beliefs and experiences that led me to make that choice. That’s fine you believe that.
Again, I am not trying to prove the existence of God to you. I can only speak testimonial of what I have experienced, and my desire for others to experience the same.
We are having two different discussions though.
One, is you not understanding the narrative or themes of the Bible as a story and me trying to explain it to you.
Two, me giving testimonial or anecdotal experiences I had. We have to be careful not to conflate the two.
[QUOTE]
ER doctors do not witness miracles, but nice false claims. [/QUOTE]
Really? I mean, not all will admit or call it a miracle. But there are TONS of prognosis reversals that are referred to as “Spontaneous Remission/Regression” or “Medically Unexplained Symptoms”
That kind of says miracle, or supernatural. It is medically unexplainable or spontaneous. If you saw an arm snapped in half, and then watched it go back together like some coins in a magic trick, and you had to record it and supernatural terms like miracles were not allowed, what would you say? You would say MUS, or spontaneous remission. Or you might think you were tricked, or saw an illusions. But if there was no other witnesses or video recording, what could you call it? And now with AI, even if captured on video it will never be believed.
Again, supernatural exists outside of nature, that is by its very definition. Anything supernatural cannot and never will be proven or disproven by science.
If the sun really stood still (in its relative positions from our earth, so actually the earth stopped rotating), do you know how much that would jack up the currents and winds and gravity and orbits and moon and all kinds of stuff. BUT, if it was done supernaturally, or miraculously, it isn’t a problem. If fish were created from nothing, we know matter cannot be created nor destroyed, so how were hundreds fed from fish that didn’t exist? That would also have a drastic butterfly type effect on our universe. Was the fish 1 second old? Or 5 years old? Because if I was starving, I would want a 5 year old fish, not a 1 second old one, that wouldn’t be very filling. How do fish grown to be 5 years? By growing and eating?
Unless is happens in the supernatural realm.
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Well, that’s quite a large amount of nonsense and lots of excuses. Nothing supports your claims, something typical for a theist.
You can make all sorts of baseless claims, that you can’t prove it just makes you another delusional person when it comes to your religion. You claim that this god intervenes all of the time. That’s a positive claim, so the burden of proof is yours. Where is that evidence, dear? +
Again, every Christian claims “scriptural truth” aboaut their baseless opinions and not one of you frauds can show that your supposed “truth” is any better than the rest. You try to lie yet again with claiming I’ve cherry picked phrases and yet you cant’ show that I have or that any context shows I’m wrong. There is no one “narrative of the bible” since Christians can’t evn agree on what it means.
If you can’t make yourself understood then that is not my problem but yours. As for being open minded, you may be but that isnot demonstrated in your actoins or your writings. You are just onemore Christian who thinks that only their version is the right one. I am open minded, which means I consider things and analyze them, including evidence to support them. I do not blindly accept claims.
it is ntohign special that Christians change versions since not one of you can show any version is true.
All you have are bible stories which cannot be shown to be true. These tales show your god being incompetent and failing repeatedly. This god uses vicious ignorant people since that’s who was writing this nonsense.
This god states that it will never allow Pharoah to let the people go since it wants to show off (Exodus 4). You might want actually read the bible rather than accepting what pastors and priests have invented to whitewash it.
There is no evidence of armies or David existing at all, so again, you have stories, myths with no basis. No evidence for Peter and little evidence for Paul. As for the carpenter, Christians can’t even agree on how this jesus was made god’s son. There is no theme.
It’s hilarious that you claim to be speaking for god, and then you claim you aren’t, and you have no idea, but start right again with the same baseless nonsense. You haven’t been used by imaginary nonsense, but many Christians do love to stroke their own ego with that claim.
Then you try the nonsense of stories that never happened with your “convict” claims. This is typical glurge spouted by Christians. Unsurprisingly, even if true, your god did nothing at all. Strange how this god doesn’t just magically send money to these people, but always must depend on humans do actually do anything. Same with a muslim who would offer sadaqah, it’s them, not their imaginary friend. This god never helps addicts on its own, just like it helps no one on its own.
You give your imaginary friend “credit” where it is not due in your need to pretend it exists. The congregation has jobs because they worked for them. It’s a typical thing in a cult to remove any responsibility for either good or bad from the people in the cult.
You then claim you don’t want any credit but yet you are here saying how great you were to be used by this god. A god that needs constantly stroked with “glory” isn’t quite the god you claim to worship. Why would this god care?
You fail at showing your cult’s claims are true since you have no evidence and that means your god is the root of your failure. Your god doesn’t know you are a on a journey since it doesn’t exist. You blame yourself about the actions of your imaginary friend. Your god doesn’t still want to do anything since it has done nothing.
Why yes, I could ask why this god doesn’t fix you or fix satan or actually do anything at all. I wouldn’t need to since this god doesn’t exist. If your god needs to harm people to keep them stroking it, then you need a new god.
Your god, per the bible, isn’t all powerful or all knowing, despite the bible’s claims. You have quite a problem. Trying to claim that your god is flawed and ignorant is hilarious and no, dear, this nonsense doesn’t negate my arguments against your claims. Your ignorance of what your bible claims is typical too. Yes, this god does say it is omnipotent and omniscient, so you fail yet again. It’s hilarious how you claim the “people describing it” don’t use those words when they do, and if this god didn’t want to be known as those things, it could have stopped that.
“Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.”
““I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.”
“”But Jesus looked at them and said, ‘With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible'”. “
“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.”
“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.”
Your religion becomes even more incoherent the more you try to patch it up.
You make lots of claims as fact and then say “I don’t know”. Which is it? No evidence of any immense power or knowledge, so your incoherence continues.
You do just spout religions dogma and cliches. You may believe them but it doesn’t make your claims true. You repeated make claims of certainty, so your claims you do not are just amusing. Nothing, including the bible, shows that your god exists, is loving, is just or is merciful. This god murders children for the actions of others, so you fail mightily.
Then you try the nonsense about “design” which fails since DNA fails often and horribly. Your god is either an idiot or malicious. It’s hilarious that reality is too much of a “stretch” for you, when you have to invent a god that you can’t show exists. Magic e.g. the supernatural has never been the answer to anything.
Your god provides nothing. You have to ignore how it allows Christians to starve to death, to be killed by terrorists, and then pat yourself on the back for being so protected in a first-world country. Again, the ignorance and arrogance of Christians is pathetic.
It’s also great when a Christian blithely tries to claim that this god gives us information, when it surely must have hated those people it allowed to die before it supposedly “gave” humans things like antibiotics, anesthesia, chemotherapy, etc.
Unconditional love would have no conditions. Your cult has quite a few conditions for getting this god’s “love”: obedience, prayer, the constant stroking that you have to do for his god, etc.
My responses have not deepened your nonsense, but nice try. IT’s hilarious how your god is still silent. That you must depower your god is great. You are quite the sycophant, making excuses for your god constantly. If this god manipulates at all, there is no free will. And if your god can’t come up with anything better than killing itself for itself by making itself a human blood sacrifice, it is quite a failure. No one but this god needed a tortuous death, and that makes it less than any human.
Nice fail too when it comes to your attempts to lie and claim you don’t think I should be punished by your god. This quote is all I need to show how your cult fails “I DO think you WILL continue to be in darkness for eternity, IF you don’t request the light. But reality of what occurs is very different than what my desires are.”
This is no more than “I’m just following orders.” This is common with Christians: “Oh I don’t want you to be eternally tortured, but oh dear my god wants that and who am I to question it?”
I’ve punished myself when I violate my own conscience. No god needed.
You are a Christian. You, like all of the others, think that only your version is the right one. You are religious since that only means: “relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity” That Christians don’t like to admit beingn religious is thanks to their own actions which has made the term religious less than flattering.
Christians do not like to be shown that their jesus requires them to follow all of the OT’s laws, Mathew 5, and do show how that can be construed otherwise. So, yes, when you wear mixed fabrics, you are sinning, and when you don’t abandon your family for the cult, you are sinning.
“I don’t see the Bible as a rule book that requires me to follow it and read it literal. I see it as a window with which how to see God collectively and in context. But everything I strive to do should be non-contradictory or the 2 greatest commandments facing God with all my being, loving others, and within that anything that is not a fruit of the Spirit.”
Yep, typical Christian. IT’s hilarious how you all can’t agree on what parts of the bible are to be taken as literal, as metaphor, as exaggeration, as hyperbole, etc. You each invent a god in your image. You can’t agree on what makes a Christian a Christian at all.
As for you loving me, that’s again what all cultists try. It’s called love bombing and is how the cult tries to fill a void in someone’s life. It is dishonest and manipulative.
You then again try to whitewash a god that forces itself on others. I’ve read the bible and do not buy your intentional lies. Your lies again that I’m “angry and hurt” also fail and show you to be doing no more than manipulation.
Nice of you to avoid addressing my points about how I’m better than your god since I don’t need to kill children for things they didn’t do. Your whine that “but but god has it so hard” is just more sycophantic nonsense. I certainly could do better than your god since again, I don’t’ need to murder kids.
That your god is now fallible since you need it to be means it is even less worth worship.
It’s hilarious how yet again you claim you can’t speak for god but then turn around and do exactly that: “Now I didn’t create the universe, so I can’t say why God does or doesn’t do what He does. BUT, He has demonstrated an amazing sacrificial love and mercy towards so many. NOT just ‘His Chosen’ as you like to say.”
Nothing redeems those who are murdered by this god and its minions. And Rahab can’t be in jesus’ line since Joseph wasn’t jesus’ father. And the story of Namaan is typical since it is just a story. This god supposedly heals someone for its benefit, nothing more. Strange how those “miracles” never happen. Yep, and do explain why this god doesn’t just heal its own people since it never does.
Your god, not existing, of course can’t be bribed or controlled and does nothing at all.
Funny how this god supposedly did genocide, literally, but nice of you try to cover that up too. And saves anyone who desires? Paul and Jesus both say that is false and that it is this god’s whim that determines who is saved and who is not. Paul is quite clear that nothing a human wants has anything to do with if they are saved or not.
If your jesus is god, then I have quite a lot of negative things to point out about jesus. Your jesus says to murder anyone who won’t accept him as king (Luke 19). Your jesus calls a woman a dog. Your jesus murders all nonchristians if we are to believe the nonsense in revelation.
Your jesus says to hate ones family and to leave them. He says to not bother burying your father but follow the cult. Not one of these quotes are out of context. Your jesus did nothing than it didn’t want to do, so your claims of how giving this god/jesus was fail. No one needed jesus to die as a human blood sacrifice but jesus. A faith based on guilt is just amusing. Your jesus if he is god did kill children for things they didn’t do and had no control over and again, said to kill those who disagreed with him. I’ve read the bible. It’s obvious you have not.
Women are considered property and second class citizens in your bible, from Genesis to Revelation so you fail with that nonsense too. As for “ezer” it can have a couple of meanings, from helping, to protecting and rescuing, which are similar but do not mean the same thing. Again, there is still the master and subjugate here. If you would read these in context, you would see that and realize that your attempts to change meaning didn’t work very well.
Funny how Christians don’t agree that their bible is full of ignorance and ridiculous claims that hailstones are kept in magical warehouses, so your false claim that you agree with me and that 50% agree with me fails. The clergy did their est to kill the sciences, so your attempt to again make false claims about christainity fail. They were not the first to challenge the Christian geocentric model.
Oh dear. “Name one instance where God punishes anyone for their beliefs/opinions? I’ll name a bunch where God punishes those for the horrible actions resulting from their beliefs.”
okay:
“Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)
“A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)
“Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19)
“Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)
“If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)
Nice example of how a christian tries to lie about what their god does. Beliefs inform actions, so this god is punishing people for their beliefs.
Your lies don’t work with someone who has read the bible.
It’s hilarious how you then try to excuse your god with your nonsense about orthodoxy and orthopraxy. You depend on lies you invent to accuse those your god murdered in the flood. Every cult claims to be doing the right things and then accuses everyone else of not doing the right things. Your god does this in your myth. Curious how you can’t support your accusations. Happily, no magic flood ever happened. And if the people were ever so bad, how did a few people manage to make a giant boat with things those other people would have had to supply?
The nonsense of Sodom and gomorroah also fails hilariously. Never happened and beliefs again are the only things that cause actions.
It’s hilarious how you then try to excuse genocide by calimgn that they doing bad thigns. Every cult claim that their enemies do bad things so they have an excuse to do genocide. Your lies still fail badly. No evidence of any abuse of children or child sacrifice.
Happily the nonsense about Annais and Sapphira is also just a set of lies since your cult needed to scare people into giving it money. Again, you add to your bible to give excuses for your god’s heinous actions. All you show is that your morality is no more than might equals right.
Curious how yes, people can read and interpret all sorts of things into religion, which shows that the claims abouat religion are lies since their gods could stop that. It’s hilarious how you try to again lie that I somehow don’t understand the bible.
Let’s see where hate is commanded in the NT:
“‘Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.”
“6 Yet this is to your credit: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. “
“17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, ‘Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of the mighty, the flesh of horses and their riders—flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.’ 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against the rider on the horse and against his army. 20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed in its presence the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur. 21 And the rest were killed by the sword of the rider on the horse, the sword that came from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.”
and this says that slavery should never be resisted: “18 Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. 19 For it is to your credit if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. 20 If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, where is the credit in that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God’s approval. 21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you should follow in his steps.”
so yes, it is commanding it be allowed to proceed with no question. You have shown your own hate since you again say it is okay for people to be eternally tortured. You agree with your god, though you try to use the usual “but I’m just following orders” nonsense.
You have claimed nonsense as facts, so yes, you have tried to claim yoru god exists. You have made assertions abouat this “amazing love” which you can’t show exists. Yu can show no demonstration, only stories. Indeed, why you try to use stories to convince me of things as you have?
I have not said “Finding Nemo” was about genocide, but nice of you to show how incoherent you are. Your bible is full of genocide, and yet you try to hand wave it away since you don’t like those parts.
You do take out verses, dear since you try to ignore the ones that you don’t like, so don’t try to act the martyr with me. There is no “main narrative”, just the one you and so many o ther Christians invent from what you have. Your lies that there are “very few” verses that go against your narrative is shown again as false by my ablity to quote even more verses in this post that show your claims are false. ROFL, oh dear “Just” 20-30 events. It’s great to see someone say that the bible is “pure’ except for the shit that is in it.
that one verse about love is contradicted by thousands of verses that state otherwise. We see no love in a cult that says that everyone who dares not agree with the cult are eternally tortured. That Christains must invent different versions of heaven and hell shows just how fraught those concepts are.
It’s notable how you have to excuse genocide as long as it was a “specific group of people” whose only “sin” was offering another religion, another way of belief. This applies to anyone who offers a new religion, nothing limits it to a certain time and place. That’s why it is so vague. I guess we can ignore all of what is in Romans, in Colossians, in Corinthians since that is also only about one group of people, right? And we can ignore the commandments since they were only for the Israelites of thousands of years ago, right?
Unsurprsingly, you can’t argue on why that was said and you try to blame me for your failure. You then try to excuse genocide since “kings” must do that. Curious how no one has to do genocide at all, with the excuse being “oh dear, you made me do that” blaming the victim. No ‘burden” of command for an omnipotent being, and if your god isn’t omnipotent, it doesn’t deserve worship in any form. Yes, I can do better than just murdering kids for the actions of their parents like your imaginary friend does. I can kill the parents if that’s the problem. I’ve been in charge of children, and no, dear, I don’t punish them for their parents being idiots.
I’ve shown how your god isn’t what you’ve invented, not even in your bible where you get all of your nonsense. Curoius how your god didn’t show any love at all since love doesn’t need threats. This god could have said “hey, believe and we and we’re good”, rather than having this idiot fall story that needs a human blood sacrifice by torture.
You benefit because you imaginar yourself best friends with a powerful being. You do not suffer for anyone else, you are vain person in a first world country who imagines his prayers are worth something.
Yes, dear, it really does do that through out your bible, from genesis to revelation. I’ve read your bible and you have obviously not. The story changes when the Romans appear. Genocide is all that happens in Revelation. Funny how there were people in Canaan, so yes it was to conquer somewhere and commit genocide. It was expanding Israelite reach, so your ignorance about what your bible says is typical. Happily, that’s all completely false and is just a nation building story since all evidence shows that there was no exodus, no conquest and no genocide at all. Just the delusions of a people that needed to pretend they were more important than they were.
And funny how the book of Joshua has this god mind controlling people so it can cause even more genocide: “20 For it was the Lord’s doing to harden their hearts so that they would come against Israel in battle, in order that they might be utterly destroyed, and might receive no mercy, but be exterminated, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.” Joshua 11
Yes, I have indeed heard of collateral damage, and strange how a supposedly omnipotent perfect being would be incapable of that. So again your god is depowered, and worthless. And wow, more excuses on how its just fine to kill kids as long as you benefit from it.
Curious how the bible claims that this god is indeed perfect, and you are the one who has had to invent a god that isn’t. I am going with the bible which Christians claim is the “truth”, so I guess per you it isn’t.
You try to claim that since this god has supposedly done “amazing things” that means no one can mention the horrific things. I have no need to accept horrific things with amazing things. I can call your god out and not ignore what it has supposedly done as you must. I don’t need to accept a parent that birthed me, if they are horrific. That you find you must speaks volumnes about you.
Humans don’t’ always heal themselves. Sometimes our immune system goes haywire and if you want to claim “design” again your god is an idiot or malicious. That you are willing for trillions to die for your benefit through the actiosn of your god shows just how selfish and arrogant Christians are.
No need to be saved by such a horrific being either. Again, you see this god as something to be placated, to stroke and appease. I am not that kind of coward. You claim it has some right to punish people, which is what an abusive parent claims they have over their children.
I do love this nonsense “Sin is the blessing God allowed us to experience in order to see how amazing He is.” Yep, more evidence that your god is no more than a sadist who needs to hurt people to get them to worship it.
No light from this imaginary being, and I’m in no darkness. Again, the cult tries to sell the cure to a disease that doesn’t exist. Obedience is demanded:
“Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.”
“Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?”
“For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.”
“If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land;20 but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be eaten by the sword; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”
Any sycophant will claim that their king is a good king. They must or die. As for all sins being erased, that is also up for debate amongst Christians. If I don’t want god’s will, and I have no choice, then there is no free will.
Curious how life outside of Christianity is not punishment, but again, nice attempts to scare people into the cult. You want to claim annihilation and yet your bible says that isn’t the case. Of course, your bible isn’t coherent, so it says many different things. No one requests life to be taken by this god, so that lie fails too.
You have repeatedly tried to provide evidence and argue that your god is real. You are not just “expanding” a story but making direct claims. Again, no evidence of love in your stories. There is foregivness but since the bible can’t agree on what needs to be forgiven, that’s rather silly. Evidence in a story also makes Allah supposedly real.
Again, your god doesn’t love its enemies, so all you have is a set of contradictory claims.
Alas, you do want people to live under a cult that is based under false claims, your claims. You demand that people accept your claims that your god is real, that your god is loving, etc. You get upset when I do not. You claim this god reveals things and yet can’t even show it exists. Your prayers do nothing and your blessing do nothing. Meeting you would not make your claims any more true. Your god doesn’t love anyone intrinsically or value humans at all.
Funny how per your own bible, as noted above, I must obey to get salvation. You have no independence in your religion since no, you can’t do anything you desire and still have your supposed salvation. If your desires are transformed by an outside force, you have no free will. Literally.
Luke 19 does indeed come from a parable. And how should one interpret that parable? Curious how Christians are so loath to do that. It is a command and a recommendation. Not all kings require their followers murder anyone who doesn’t accept them, so your attempts to whitewash things fails again. Curoius how this jesus doesn’t allow for begging for mercy; just killing. You again add to your myths to make them more palatable. Yep, your jesus says repeatedly that people who don’t accept him should be killed, are dead, etc. That doesn’t mean the lies of the cult are true. It does mean that your cult makes threats against life if one doesn’t obey. Your desperate attempt to claim “he probably…” is just more whitewashing. Submission is obedience, so again your own words seem to show how you can’t evne agree with yourself on what story to try to tell. Again, no love, just obedience.
I do enjoy your story about the boy who cried wolf since that shows just how selfish Christians actually are. The parent does want the child ripped to shreds if the parent didn’t do anything. Where’s this god? Why does it evidently need to rely on humans to make this nonsense up and not show up itself?
Yep, your cult says that one should abandon everything but the cult. This is nothing surprising, and nothing that is admirable.
ROFL. It’s great when a christain says that they don’t need to understand or explain the harder verses to follow what they want. Yep, you don’t and that means you pick and choose to create what you want. There would be no “false unity” if your god could make itself understood, and yet you must invent reasons why it’s a feature and not a bug on why Christians murder each other over their differences. So either ryour god wants this murder or can’t do anything about it and thus isn’t worth worship again. You literally aren’t united in jesus at all.
A tree falling in the forest does make sound. Again, where is this god, dear? How does love exist on its own? Animals have care and concern, although it is quite different than what humans consider love to be, so it comes from material brains, not your imaginary god or “souls”.
Humans don’t all have a desire for unity, purpose, justice, love, order, or creativity, so your lies fail yet again. All humans don’t have sacrificial love, so you fail. And you have to ivent magical “corruption” to excuse how you fail.
It’s great how you find that showing that Mother Theresa lied and denied help to patients is just “nitpicking”. Again, wow. Yep, they would have been better off without her lies. Positive things don’t make negative things vanish.
Nice fail about microbiomes and brains since both could have been found thousands of years ago. Strange how your failure about finding souls still happens. Just how would one find a soul dear? I pointed out how that should happen and yet it doesn’t. Love is an opinion, so yep, it’s hard to measure. Just like grief, or hate. Again, we see how they are made, but rate them, no.
Again, you aren’t evidence for your god since by that argument, every believer is evidence for their god. You good with that? You just tried to claim that you are evidence for your god so your lies that you aren’t trying to prove his god’s existence fail again.
Unsurprisngly, you give none of those “tons” you claim, dear. And no, nothing shows miracle since that needs to show magic, e.g. a definite action that is not part of this world. Again, curious how your imaginary friend fails with any visible injury. If there was no witnesses or evidence, I’d call it a fairy tale. Suprnatural things could indeed be proven by science since Christians claim repeatedly healings and that’s what is needed repeated phenomena.
Curious how the sun standing still would do nothing much ot our currents, wind or gravity. The earth stopping would make quite a change. Since you can’t show any cause or effect, your miracles fail to be shown to be possible. Again, all you have is special pleading. Yep, the silly claims in your bible would have repercussions and yet there are none, so no reason to think they happened at all.
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Also, if it was unclear. I am familiar with the ‘water in a pothole’ argument. Where a monotheist would claim the pothole was perfectly created to hold the water. The amazing depth and shape and curves allow for a perfect fit. Where as an atheist might claim, the pothole was there, it was just filled with water. Water took shape or adapted to its surroundings.
I am again, was not trying to prove God’s existence with how amazing and complex the universe is. Potholes. Understood.
Im more simply saying IF there was a Creator, that is a phenomenal complex and intricate universe and laws of physics, and biology they came up with.
If I was going to try to prove God (or more properly convince someone of a Creator). I would more likely point to love/compassion (especially towards an adversary) and justice. Turning the other cheek, giving the one that stole from you. Amazing humility demonstrated and sourced in Jesus we see in humans and the idea of justice for the oppressed.
You don’t really see that in the animal kingdom.
So yea, more testimonies and anecdotal evidence, and more convincing another rather than proving another.
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so your attempt to claim love and compassion coming form your god is just like the same claims coming from any other god. Again, your bible showsn no love, no compassion and no justice, sinc eyour god murders people for things they didn’t do or have control over.
Turning the other cheek is nothing more than pacificism which happens in other worldviews/religions. Giving to those who find it necessary to steal is rather silly but possibly useful if they stole because they desperately needed something. Your god shows no humility since no one needed it or needed a human blood sacrifice.
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Good grief. Does anyone actually read all of that? Don’t answer that. I shouldn’t have asked.
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heh. I do but I’m bored.
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I pray that I am never so bored that I would read his river of dribble.
Just kidding about the pray part, but…
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