Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – a Christian’s excuse for supporting an anti-christ aka Trump

Haden, over at Helpmebelieve.com, has done a great job at showing just what some Christians will do to gain power. Haden, unsurprisingly, is a Trumpie.  Nothing new is here.  Pretty much every Trumpie will make the same excuses.

As some of you might know, the editor of Christianity Today, a magazine started by the Billy Graham family of pastors, wrote an article on why Christians shouldn’t support Donald J. Trump.   Haden is quite sure that it is wrong for Galli to have pointed out why Christians shouldn’t support a liar, a cheat, a self-proclaimed sexual abusers, someone who has said he doesn’t need forgiveness by Haden’s god, and who idolizes murderous dictators that kill their own people, including Christians.

“It is no secret that evangelicals are split on Trump. Many are his strongest allies. Many view him as an abomination. Many voted for him simply because they did not like their other options. “

Vanishingly few evangelical Christians find Trump an abomination. Most voted for him because they are indeed bigots and wannabee theocrats that will do anything for power. We know that they want judges appointed to give them a chance to legislate their religion into law.

It’s something when Haden claims this “Although, naturally a Christian evangelical publication is going to lean right and conservative.” This does seem to be a tendency but what is this reason when their supposed savior was a communist who supported the sick and the poor? It seems that again, Christianity is made up by the believer, not the other way around.

We do know Haden’s stance, anything for power and anyone who doesn’t agree with him is not a true Christian. He isn’t objective but he does want to claim that *no one* is, as an excuse for himself. Haden says he will likely vote for Trump in 2020. “I won’t vote for anyone else”, and he admits that. Someone who won’t vote for anyone else has declared that Trump is indeed is “favorite guy in the world.” His bias *is* in the open.

As much as Haden doesn’t like facts, there are some that show that his intended choice, above anyone else, is indeed someone that Christians wouldn’t vote for.

Haden tries to argue that Trump, by trying to force a foreign power to conduct a baseless investigation of an American citizen, isn’t “really” an abuse of power. What is Haden’s excuse? That Galli hadn’t mentioned all of the evidence in the editorial. Of course, one can read the report from the House to see all of the sworn testimony and evidence. We don’t have the actual transcripts since they have been hidden by Trump in a separate confidential server.  Funny how Trump isn’t willing to be under oath and is terrified if any of his closest people are under oath. An oath to be honest before Haden’s god. Hmmmm.  We do have the evidence, Haden, and you again try to ignore that fact.

The editorial, and Haden’s (plus other evangelicals) actions do paint themselves as ignoring their bible and their god.  The editorial in CT has “That he should be removed, we believe, is not a matter of partisan loyalties but loyalty to the Creator of the Ten Commandments.” Haden is offended by that last statement.

Hmmm, how dare anyone expect Haden to be loyal aka faithful to his god and to what the bible claims? Well, what does the bible actually say about a man like Donald J. Trump and his known actions? Is salvation conditioned on support of Trump or not?

Is salvation connected to actions at all? Well, that’s a problem for Christians since, again, they disagree if it is or not. There is the “always saved” bunch, the “actions will happen because of faith” bunch, the “faith alone” bunch, and “any good act is rewarded” bunch.

But if we look at the bible itself, it seems rather clear on at least what this god doesn’t want in a leader. But in the bible we do have that problem that Paul claims that *any* leader is put in place by this god, so obedience to a leader is indeed required for salvation, despite what Haden says “So, does Galli really believe that if one votes, or supports Trump, that one is not loyal to God? If pressed, surely he would not make salvation conditioned on support, or non-support, of a president. Even if we tone down the language to that of obedience, surely this is an overreach.”

Ummm, yep, Haden, your bible does literally say this: Romans 13 if you are confused (or trying to ignore it).

Haden’s also horrified that anyone dares not call him the only True Christian, and that other Christians might find this to be the case. Haden of course does this repeatedly. And oh no, someone dares to speak prophetically about how Christians should act? You mean like Pat Robertson, Robert Jeffress and others that Haden follows? Such the pot calling the other Christian kettle black.

Indeed, Haden, who will take you seriously after you support Trump? He offers these excuses:

  • “The truth of the Gospel message is not dependent upon the character of the Gospel messenger.”

In that no Christian can come up with a “truth” here that they all agree on is the problems Christians like Haden have.

  • “The effectiveness of the Gospel message is not dependent upon the character of the Gospel messenger.”

That Christians can’t agree makes a completely ineffective message since the message changes with each Christian.

  • “If a person will only accept the Gospel message on the condition that I publicly denounce Trump, that person does not understand the message.”

If a person notes that you ignore your bible, that person understands that you cherry pick what you want to accept.

  • “A vote for Trump is not a justification of all of his actions and words. I repeat: a vote for Trump is not a justification of all of his actions and words.”

This from a Christian who wants you to think he doesn’t completely support Trump but who will vote for NO ONE ELSE. It is a justification of all of his actions and words.

That people vote for Trump means that they *have* justified his actions and words to be more important than following what the Bible says. Haden desperately wants abortion to be made criminal. He will accept anything as long as he thinks that will happen. He is indeed saying that as long as he gets what he wants “the bent and broken character of our nation’s leader doesn’t really matter in the end”. Haden literally says this “if we don’t vote for the conservative candidate that has the best chance at winning, we are more likely to get a president who will make our efforts toward ending abortion that much more difficult.” The end justifies the means, a suitable amoral idea that goes well with the “might equals right” claims of conservative Christianity.

There are no false dichotomies as Haden would claim. His words out his intentions. Unlike Haden’s claim “We can support the candidate that is most pro-life “friendly” while at the same time calling-out his moral failures.” , these people never consider or call out Trump’s moral failures. They invent excuses for them, just like Haden is doing.

For people like Haden, abortion is just a “think of the children” lie that they use to try to hide their desire for a theocracy. That they consistently elect people who cut help to families and children aka “innocent human beings made in the image of God” and who have no problem with over a thousand children lost in Trump’s immigration nightmare, and who don’t want children to have the best chance in life, shows that they are not “pro-life” at all. Not caring for children after they leave the womb shows that all they want is control.

For someone who wants to toss about the term “genocide”, Haden doesn’t want that term being used for his god when the bible has it commanding genocide committed on other people. If genocide is wrong, then it is always wrong. If not, then Haden’s god is as subjective as Haden is. Haden assumes he knows what his god is concerned with “At the risk of going too far, let me ask, what is God more concerned with? The way other people view you, or the genocide of millions of innocent lives? The question is really: Are you willing to support a president with a less than perfect moral life for the sake of ending abortion, or not?”

Hmmm, a god that commands genocide? This god has done nothing about abortion. The bible only mentions the killing of children as being approved of or being done directly by this god. If we go with the bible, abortion is at best no concern of this god, and at worst, approved of by this god. Are you willing to support a god that is like this?  A god that wants you to go for a “lesser of two evils”, which is not a biblical idea? Are you willing to ignore the parts of the bible that say not to follow a liar, a cheat, an adulterer, etc?

“Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.” – 2 John 1

As we end up seeing, Haden is all about winning and power. “To them I say: show me the pro-life candidate with a perfect moral life that actually has a chance at winning.” And then we see this “Whatever option you take, far be it from me to question your “loyalty” to God as Galli has done.” Except, you know, when Haden insists that some Christians really aren’t Christians, like Mormons, JWs, etc.

Haden insists that some candidate needs to be supported, but we have the bible saying to not bother with the actions of this world. It would only be someone who is quite sure that this world is it when he is so concerned about it. That an evangelical has no one to vote for shouldn’t be an issue.

It seems we have a schism between conservative Christians and Trumpie Christians. Haden is a Trumpie Christian, close to a conservative Christian, but another step away in being sure that he and he alone can decide what this god wants and ignoring even more of his bible as is convenient. Even the OT, the bastion of conservative Christianity, doesn’t go far enough for him. Losing this “base” isn’t a bad thing at all. For all of the claims of “irrelevantness” about who Billy would have voted for, Haden found it necessary to mention.

The hypocrisy of conservative Christians and Trumpie Christians is fun to watch. They are after each other with knives, and all about who knows their invisible friend best.  I do feel sorry for the Christians who are good people in spite of the religion.   They often get tarred with the same brush.

Just in case Christians are a bit forgetful about what their god says about following someone just for power and excusing what he does when convenient:

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.” Matthew 7

14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?” – 2 Corinthians 6

“You shall not spread a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man to be a malicious witness. You shall not fall in with the many to do evil, nor shall you bear witness in a lawsuit, siding with the many, so as to pervert justice, nor shall you be partial to a poor man in his lawsuit.” – Exodus 23

“And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” 21 And he said, “All these I have kept from my youth.” 22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”” -Luke 18

“Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death19 is the man who deceives his neighbor
and says, “I am only joking!””- Proverbs 26

“But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21

But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) By no means! For then how could God judge the world? But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.” – Romans 3

Some will chide me for using the bible to point out the failures of Christians and Christianity, mostly Christians. But how else to show such hypocrisy and thoughtlessness?  No one needs the bible or Christianity or Christians to be a humane person.  If you aren’t even going to try, you get to be held responsible.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – reducing a conservative Christian to incoherence

I think I may have broken our favorite unfunny Christian comedian, John Branyan:  “I would consider the stopping of the earth’s rotation as evidence you have a husband.”  Now, since no one ever claimed my spouse could stop the earth from rotating like the bible claims this god can stop the “sun” aka stop the earth from rotating, how can that be evidence of a 50+ year old Army veteran who is married to a 50+ year old me?  Of course, JB’s Amanda, has such a good time trying to claim I’m not human *but* she’ll be “forced” to vote for Trump because of me.  Such a pair of conservative Christians.

Poor JB, he has ended up here after thinking that it’s funny to be misogynistic just like Donald J. Trump, whom it seems to be living up to his claims of being an sexual abuser.  Oh well, that’s all he has, the “comedy” of a bully, who doesn’t like it at all when he’s called on it.  This is what conservative Christians are.

Tsk.

In other news, I have a momma cat and her kittens in my backyard.  The momma cat lets me pick her up and pet her. Now begins the process of taming the four kittens.  I discovered, again, that kittens have claws with monomolecular points on them.  🙂

 

 

What the Boss Likes: claims, reasons and evidence

When I discuss religion here, it is usually about claims that theists make based on their respective religions. In most cases, those claims and religions get their details from what are deemed “holy books”.   These can be anything from how the universe came to be, to how one should eat, or how one should treat other people, etc.

Many theists want to start with a presupposition, that their holy book is true. What they forget is that to everyone else but a believer, it is a set of claims.

The Department of Communication at University of Pittsburgh has a great explanation of how claims, reasons and evidence works. Claims aren’t evidence of themselves like the theist presupposition requires.  They can be evidence that people did indeed believe such things, but they are not evidence that the events happened or the beings existed.

Addendum:  if you want to see me discuss this with a Christian, go to Joe’s blog here: https://trueandreasonable.co/2014/12/23/no-evidence/   At this moment, if my posts are still up, Joe is trying to use trial lawyer arguments for evidence for his god.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Well, we got the truth on what some Chrisitans really want -A theocracy and a war.

this god kills kids to show off

This morning I read The Friendly Atheist’s (aka Hemat Mehta) post on Patheos: “WA Lawmaker Attends Fundraiser for Liberty, a Proposed 51st State for Christians”   Of course these idiots think that they can just take other people’s land, up in the northwest US and that the US Constitution will allow this.   That won’t happen. Now, perhaps they can just go Alabama since Christians have been trying to make that a theocracy repeatedly. But they of course don’t want a coastal state since it’s hot, going to suffer from the climate change they deny, and will get nailed by hurricanes that they always claim come because of someone else’s “sin”.

We’ve seen nonsense like this before with the founder of Domino’s Pizza, Tom Monaghan, (one of the rabid Catholics with Opus Dei) wanting a Catholic town. He did get it, calle Ave Maria, Florida. Ah, only in Florida. The Wikipedia article says this about it “Ave Maria has a severe mosquito problem and has been sprayed more than 30 times via airplane with pesticides by the Collier Mosquito Control District in 2015 with organophosphates and pyrethroids,[21] making it the most sprayed area in Southwest Florida.” Seems they have their own version of the ten plagues.

For the war bit, I read an opinion piece in my local Sunday paper by Chistine Flowers. You’ve seen her name on this blog before because she is a Roman Catholic apologist, who does get upset when the truth is told about her ignorant religion. She’s at it again, with her op-ed piece “With new abortion legislation, America is on the right track”. This is what she claims right off “’ I’m here to dispense with the niceties of “can’t we all get along?” No, we can’t. The fight for the right to life is a war.”

Oh my, how silly. Ms. Flowers certainly wants a war, doesn’t she? Alas, she’s declaring war against the United States of America, the vast majority who doesn’t agree with her religious ignorance and demands for a theocracy. Poor Ms. Flowers, she has declared that unless she gets her way, no exceptions for abortion and her theocratic nonsense in place, she’ll become John Brown at Harper’s Ferry. Now, it seems either Ms. Flowers isn’t so pro life since she seems to be so ignorant about John Brown, because the truth of that particular story is that John Brown was an incompetent man who got people killed and failed at what he claimed he was trying to do.

Ms. Flowers is “relieved” that men are taking away health care choice from women who dare to disagree with Ms. Flowers. She has no problem with laws being made with ignorance of basic medicine, having no problem with nonsense like claims that ectopic pregnancies can be “fixed” as the claims in the Ohio legislation. She goes on to lie about Rep, Brian Sims being “aggressive” to anti-choice protestors (an “older white woman and three teenagers” as Ms. Flowers strangely specifies) when he said this “”Shame on you. What you’re doing here is disgusting. This is wrong. You have no business being out here,” and you can watch it here: https://www.pscp.tv/BrianSimsPA/1BRJjvOnrzwJw   Hmmm, compare this to accusations of murder and false information that Ms. Flowers advocates to be told to women who choose to get an abortion and the murders of people that anti-choice have been doing for years, bombing clinics, and putting up lists of doctors to be killed, etc. It seems that yet again, Ms Flowers gets offended to have the truth be shown about her religion and her attempts to control people because of it. It isn’t very flattering to be shown to be wanting the same sharia law that Ms. Flowers and other conservatives keep trying to lie about being used by Muslims in the United States.

Ms. Flowers goes on to laud that some of our conservative Christian legislators here in PA decided to show how wonderful they are by voting on a bill called The Downs Syndrome Protection Act, that they invented to try to claim that abortions were doing done left and right for fetus’s with downs syndrome. They of course forget to mention that Downs Syndome is not the media version of the happy child that is affected by a mild form. Down’s Syndrome can manifest many ways, and not all parents can handle children with this syndrome. She also forgets that the Republicans in the legislature of PA have consistently voted to cut help to mental health and medical support for those afflicted by such problems. It takes a lot of hypocrisy to try to use people with Down’s Syndrome to try to legislate your religion in to law.

Ms. Flowers is happy that Alabama has passed a bad on abortion that will force rape victims to keep the pregnancy forced on them by violence and a child to keep the pregnancy forced on them by a relative. “And that brings me to Wednesday when the Alabama legislature passed their own abortion ban which makes no exception for rape or incest.

Alabama State Sen. Clyde Chambliss, who sponsored the bill, characterized the legislation as a necessary government intervention to protect human rights. “When God creates the miracle of life inside a woman’s womb, it is not our place as human beings to extinguish that life,” Chambliss said.”

What a pathetic human being, Ms. Flowers is, for all of her claims of being “pro-life” but intentionally wanting to force a woman to risk her life because Ms. Flowers thinks her god wants it this way.

Despite her claims that the “pro-life” movement should be more than “pro-birth, Ms. Flowers doesn’t care as long as she gets her way, and she’s threatening to go to “war” for it. Hmmm, who else has said that? Ah yes, the fighters who want an Islamic Caliphate, to control people by their hate-filled and ignorant religion who murdered people who didn’t agree with them. Well, Christine, the folks who are in ISIS want to tell you how much they approve of you. Just put in a burka and you’ll be all set.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation– a festive blend of opinions on food, politics, religion….

Here’s a post about random things. Opinions about food, religion, politics etc are freely mixed.

I’ve a new follower “God’s Geological and Math Signs”. Oh my, this person’s website is utterly hilarious. For a religion that is supposedly followed by faith and no evidence needed (as told to me repeatedly by various Christians), this individual certainly is desperate for evidence that s/he is right. As an actual geologist, I find this utterly ridiculous. Perhaps only the classic nonsense by self-claimed prophets and liars like Falwell, Robertson, Graham are more pathetic. This poor individual claims that Alpha Centauri is the “same size” as our sun, which is it not, and seems to have no idea it is a multi star system. He also seems to think that it’s amazing that he can draw crosses all over the place. Note the Holy Cross Chile pepper So many Christians are walking talking examples of the Dunning Kruger effect. This person is also one of those who seems to think that all other religious believer “really” agree with him, by insisting that all religions are about his god (ignoring his bible as convenient, including Exodus 12:12)

Otto’s Pub & Brewery has a great new Cherry Wheat beer. It’s so much better than the Sam Adam’s version, with a good cherry nose and a color tending toward red. We stop when we can on our way back from visiting relatives. I got the gyro (about the size of two) and my spouse got the braised beef sandwich. The food is always fabulous there.

The nonsense in American politics is pretty much all right now about the Mueller report. We have a AG who is intentionally lying to Congress which is pathetic since we now have most of the report and can read it, and it seems we’ll shortly have Mueller testifying. We also have a orange moron who is desperate to hide his financials. Hmmm, now he has said that only the guilty hide things. I’m guessing he’s hiding money laundering and/or showing he doesn’t have the money he claims, and banks will never deal with him again after his presidency. Mueller found that Trump didn’t collude; but indicted how many of his minions for other crimes found, and we still have the Trumpies never reporting to the FBI that they were approached by the Russians and Trump who exhorted the Russians to attack the US’s IT systems. I’m personally supporting Elizabeth Warren, who is one of the democratic candidates.

I’ve made another batch of beer. It’s “Don’t Be Mean to People – a Golden Rule Saison” from Northern Brewer. It was created in support of LBGT folks in North Carolina when their state gov’t decided to get involved in people’s bathroom choice. I had the kit sitting around and hadn’t realized how long. The malt powder became large blocks of hard malt. I melted them and things seem to be proceeding apace. Should be bottling in a week or so. They don’t have it in stock anymore.

That’s it. Have a nice weekend!

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Moving the goalposts, prayer as a weapon, ignoring questions and the usual theist nonsense

Well, I finally have some time to write a blog post. Between work, and painting, and simply being disgusted with the world, I put this off.

I did do a couple of craft shows with my alcohol ink paintings and I sold one thing on Etsy. Made back my entrance fee and then some, so I’m happy about that. I decided to start trying to sell my art since it was starting to overrun the house.

Now, back to my favorite topic, Christians behaving badly.

Here in PA, we had a particularly virulent TrueChristian™ make a scene when Rep. Borowicz tried her best to convince her god that it wasn’t her fault that the PA voters elected a woman who happens to be Muslim to the state legislature.   She gave the opening prayer at the legislature and was a wonderfully bigoted twit, ignoring her bible when it says don’t pray on street corners. She claims she prays like this “all of the time”. Sure, dear, I have no problem that you are a jackass whenever you do much of anything.

I have also been kibitzing on various blogs where a theist, usually a Christian, is making false and/or baseless claims about atheists or the universe in general. When the theist responds to a post, it’s amazing how quickly they end up attacking their fellow Christians, when I point out how much they don’t agree. For a religion of supposedly “billions”, they show quite definitely that Christianity isn’t one religion but many very small ones. I had one fellow “Triggerman” insist that Baptists aren’t Christians by definition “A Christian can be a Baptist, just like a Christian can be a Methodist, or a Presbyterian or a Catholic or even a Pentecostal or a non-denom. However, just being a Baptist, etc, doesn’t make anyone a Christian.”, that Catholics aren’t Christians at all and that Christians who don’t agree with his version are “Free to think whatever they want and impose all of the FALSE standards they want to.” Tsk. I asked poor TM how does his god choose who to damn and who to allow to believe in this god if not randomly. It’s always fun to watch them insist that they do know but when it comes to saying how, there’s not an answer to be had except an attempt to redefine the word “random”.

A friend has a new website up with the more vile words of a Christian I’ve also crossed swords with, John Branyan. You can find it here. It is holding Christians accountable for their claims and beliefs.

I also found Caroline again, a Christian who has occasionally shown up (just search “caroline” in the search box in the upper right to see all of the instances) on this blog, making her usual false claims about morality and how great her morality is. She is a great example of someone using about ever poor apologist bit of nonsense in her arguments. There are no comments allows on her blog if you don’t agree with her (though she has let me post in the past), but I did happen to find her on facebook. Again, it ended up with her not answering some very basic questions: “why is objective morality “better” than subjective morality” and “why is stealing from someone wrong?”. My comments still there if you are interested (you’ll see posts from Jane R., that’s me). I find it very funny that she calls herself “friendlier theist” there. This comes from a theist who said this to me “Enjoy your Godless life…while you can.” She claimed to be arguing just for “theism” and not Christianity.

This attempt to move goalposts isn’t a new thing at all. It’s nothing new that Christians claim that those other Christians aren’t really Christians at all. There is not one new bit of evidence to support the existence of any of the billions of versions of the Christian god nor for any other god. It’s the same old arguments. The most recent one might be the argument from complexity, and that’s only because we could start to see that complexity. The rest, the early church fathers would recognize.

With Easter coming up, a lunar and fertility holiday that moves all around thanks to other religion’s beliefs, we see again that it’s been 2000+ years and still nothing has changed. No miracles, no baptized believers in JC as savior doing miracles as promised, no elders of the church doing miracles, no JC descending from the clouds in his end times return. Just lots of failed stories and baseless claims. And no god serving as back up to a lot of incompetent apologists. People ask, why do I bother? Well, I don’t like liars and I don’t like people who think it’s their right to harm people in trying to take away their ability to make an informed decision.