What the Boss Likes – more kitten videos!

Here are more videos of the foster kittens. Against astreja’s advice, I have named them since I got tired referring to them as the “orange kitten”, “the other orange kitten”, “the brown tabby kitten and “the other brown tabby kitten”. So we have Ulysses, the orange kitten with the white socks (and my husband’s pick of the litter literally), Goose, the orange kitten without the white socks (and honorary flerken), Porthos the dark brown tabby kitten and Hobbes, the lighter brown tabby kitten.

Since these are up on Youtube and I entertain myself by ripping apart theist claims there, the poor frustrated theists have to attack the fact that I’m taking care of kittens since they have nothing else.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – nothing new, a Christian apologist fails

Many of my blog visitors will recognize the failed apologist SpaniardVIII.  He, in the typical apologist arrogance, offered to answer any questions about his version of Christianity.    I asked him some questions about bible verses to see what excuses he would offer, and I wasn’t disappointed, getting a great set of examples of how Christians respond when their bible is inconvenient in its contradictions and in its less than admirable god.

The first  question I asked was about the contradictory claims in Exodus 20 and Ezekiel 18 where this god is described as punishing descendants for the actions of their ancestors and where it says this god will never do that.    

Unfortunately for span, it doesn’t just “seem” like this god will punish descendants, it says that quite literally.  We also have that confirmed in the Christian claims of “original sin”.    These are the verses:

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation[b] of those who love me and keep my commandments.”  Exodus 20 NRSV

Span uses the Berean Study Bible for his translation.  That is claimed to be “. An interlinear Bible to directly follow the Greek and Hebrew texts.2. A literal translation to take the reader to the core of the Greek and Hebrew meanings.3. A modern English translation, effective for public reading, memorization, and evangelism.4. An annotated translation to bring out the full meaning and intensity of the original texts.”  Funny how all bibles claim to be exactly this, with the exception of the good ol’ KJV since it is still in Elizabethan English. Christians still can’t agree on what version is the “right one”, and it seems that not a one of them can get their imaginary god’s stamp of approval. 

This is what the BSB has “ 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above, on the earth below, or in the waters beneath. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing loving devotion to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments. “

If we look at the underlined words, the father’s descendants are cursed since they are continuing to practice their father’s wickedness which in this case is idolatry. If a son imitates his father’s sins, he will be found guilty in God’s eyes. However, in Ezekiel 18, God makes it clear that if the son sees all of his father’s wickedness but decides not to do them but rather, obey the LORD, he will not pay for his father’s sins. God judges everyone’s personal decisions either to believe in God and follow His Word or to disobey Him and live in sin.

The LORD’s desire is for people to repent from their sins and change their ways and obey His Word.

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn’t I prefer that he turn from his ways and live? -Exodus 18:23 BSB

His bible doesn’t say that the children of the parents who disobey are also disobeying at all.  This demonstrates either Span’s ignorance about how grammar works or that he is attempting to lie.  What the sentence says is that the children will be punished because of the actions of the parent, not their own actions.  If one writes this out without the clauses, it comes out like this “You shall not bow down to them or worship them.  I am a jealous God and I visit the iniquity of the fathers who hate me on the third and fourth generations of their children.   I show loving devotion to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments.” 

there are actions by this god in these sentences.  This god “visits” (in this context meaning “to afflict with; to avenge (to exact satisfaction for (a wrong) by punishing the wrongdoer – merriam webster which uses this verse as an example)” the iniquities of the parents on the children for the actions of the parents.  There is no hate shown by these children toward this god.  This god also acts on those that love him, all of them.  

Unsurprisingly, span is also wrong about Ezekiel 18.  It mentions nothing about a son seeing the actions of his father.  “ 1The word of the Lord came to me: What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? As I live, says the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. Know that all lives are mine; the life of the parent as well as the life of the child is mine: it is only the person who sins that shall die.” Ezekiel 18 NRSV

This goes on to mention a son who does bad things, and says that a father wouldn’t be held accountable, and that if a father does bad things, a son would not be held accountable. And again, it repeats “20 The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own.” 

span tries to mention Ezekiel 18, where this god claims to be interested in people coming to it.  “23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord God, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live? 24 But when the righteous turn away from their righteousness and commit iniquity and do the same abominable things that the wicked do, shall they live? None of the righteous deeds that they have done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which they are guilty and the sin they have committed, they shall die.”

Now, consider this “David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ Nathan said to David, ‘Now the Lord has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord,[a] the child that is born to you shall die.’ 15 Then Nathan went to his house. The Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became very ill. 16 David therefore pleaded with God for the child; David fasted, and went in and lay all night on the ground. 17 The elders of his house stood beside him, urging him to rise from the ground; but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died.” 2 Samuel 12

hmmm. Span still has a contradiction in his bible and we also get to see this god lie when it comes to David’s son.

The second response is even better.  

“The second question:

“If this god hates Satan, why does it show off to satan like a [the phrase was removed for being disrespectful] and allow a family to be murdered?”

God gives all of His creatures free will. For example, God has allowed you (clubschadenfreude) to mock and malign God without being judged immediately for your contempt. You and the rest of the atheists are very fortunate.”


the phrase removed was that this god shows off to satan like a besotted schoolgirl.   Poor god, just so impotent and fearful, it can’t take being described accurately.  My question here is referring to events in the book of Job.  It’s no surprise that span didn’t quote that here, since it shows he’s wrong again.  There is no mention of free will, and a complete disregard for free will when this god says that satan can do whatever he wants with these humans “ The Lord said to Satan,[g] ‘Very well, all that he has is in your power; only do not stretch out your hand against him!’” Poof goes their free will.  And alas, for span, this god doesn’t allow me to do anything at all.  This imaginary god can’t do anything, and all poor span has is an impotent threat that will never come true.  I’ll never be judged by his bogeyman at all.   

“The third question:

“If this god hates satan, why did it allow satan into the garden? or couldn’t it keep it out?”

God’s judgment on Satan and his fallen angels will take place at the end of the world when they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire with those who refuse to put their trust in Jesus Christ.

God allowed Satan to test Adam and Eve to see if they would choose to obey God or listen to Satan. It is no different for us today. We are given the choice to follow Jesus or to follow Satan through atheism, cults, and the occults.”

Span tries to claim that an omnipotent and omniscient being has to “test” people for some reason.  Being omniscient means you don’t have to test someone; you know already what will happen and what people will do.  This depowering of a god isn’t anything new for Christians to do.   They just don’t think their excuses through. 

“The fourth question:

“If this god hates satan, why did it need satan to have its blood sacrifice by torture work?”

I’m not sure what she is trying to say with this question. It doesn’t make any sense. I will try anyways.

I’m assuming she is referring to Jesus’ death on the cross. So what she is asking is, why did Jesus need Satan to put Him on the cross? Jesus didn’t need Satan to put Him on the cross. There is no such reference in Scripture even remotely to that effect. Judas Iscariot opened up the door to Satan by being a thief, see John 6:70-71, giving him access to his life. Satan hated Jesus and wanted to stop Him since Jesus was reclaiming the souls that Satan had captured to do his bidding. When he saw that Judas didn’t give his heart to Christ and was stealing from Him, Satan saw his opportunity and took it.

This is for the second part of her question. The reason Jesus had to die on the cross for the sins of the world was that sin brought about death for all mankind. The payment for our sins was for someone sinless, Jesus Christ, to die in our place and pay our debt in full. God had to deal with humanity’s sins first before He could forgive them. Once God punished sin, forgiveness can now be extended to all.”

Poor span, he can’t grasp what I’ve asked here.  If this god hates satan, why does it need satan’s action for its plan to come true?  In the gospel of Luke, there would be no blood sacrifice by torture of Jesus if there wasn’t a betrayal done by Satan.  No blood sacrifice, no salvation. So, yep, this god needs satan.  Judas didn’t open up anything at all.  That’s a common false claim by Christians who haven’t read their bibles, but believe the mangled version given to them by priests and pastors who don’t like when this god works with its archenemy.  This claim that somehow satan took over also shows that free will is again not in the bible.  If humans can be taken over, poof goes free will. As for why JC had to die, it was to make god happy, nothing more or less.  And there was no payment since there was no loss.   It’s also unsurprising that, again, span must depower his god.  By definition, a god doesn’t have to deal with anything, especially when it put the rules in place. 

Then we get to the most interesting response:

“If this god hates satan, why does it kill all non-christians and then free satan to corrupt the christians that are left?”

“This question is misleading as it is incorrect from the start, assuming that everyone will be a Christian at that time. The question is about the End Times, in the Book of Revelation when Jesus comes down to fight against the Antichrist and his army. The non-Christian she refers to is the Antichrist and his army who will come to fight against Jesus Christ and His saints. So, the non-Christians are Satan worshippers, who received the mark of the beast. After the Antichrist is defeated, Jesus throws him and the false prophet into the Lake of Fire, and Satan is chained up and thrown into the bottomless pit for the time that Jesus rules on earth. When Jesus wins the battle, He comes down and reigns for a thousand years with His saints, and true peace permeates through the world.

When the thousand years are over, Jesus lets Satan loose for a short time, and it becomes apparent in Revelation 20:7-9, that even though Jesus will be here on earth physically, people will still refuse to believe in Him. So not everybody will be a Christian. Those are the ones that Satan gathers up to go to war for the last time. Fire comes down from heaven and devours Satan’s army who came to destroy the people in Jerusalem. Satan is thrown into his eternal place which is the Lake of Fire. Everyone at that time that ever existed will be judged. Everyone in Hades will be brought back to face God’s judgment and will end up in the Lake of Fire which is the second death. The righteous will be judged for the things they did for Jesus while on earth. Those are the ones who will enter heaven.”

Here again, the bible shows that span is wrong and that’s why he doesn’t quote it any longer in this post.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, ‘Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of the mighty, the flesh of horses and their riders—flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.’ 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against the rider on the horse and against his army. 20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed in its presence the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur. 21 And the rest were killed by the sword of the rider on the horse, the sword that came from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.”

Span chooses to try to ignore what the verse actually says, “the flesh of all” and “the rest were killed”.  So everyone is dead except Christians, per the bible itself.     

then we have “Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while.”

So, we have the nations of Christians kept safe from satan so “true peace” will reign.  If there are non-christians, this couldn’t happen per the lies of Christians like span who want to claim we are all just such horrible people.   There is nothing in Revelation 20:7-9 that there are still anyone other than Christians left.  “When the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea. They marched up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from heaven[b] and consumed them. 10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

what we have is that satan is freed to corrupt the Christians who are the only ones left, the ones that are now deceived.  If this weren’t the case, this would mean that Jesus failed to conquer the beast, the false prophet and those who worshiped them in Chapter 19.  Hmm, how does a perfect being fail?

Span also gets it wrong that people will be in heaven.   Alas, only a few humans get to go there, and Christians don’t agree on just how one figures that bit of nonsense out.   the rest get the tacky city of heaven on earth where we see a god obsessed with worldly wealth. 

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – an update on those Christians who want a new waste of money

I found out that some Christians, rather than helping women and children, and being all “pro-life” are exactly the opposite, wanting to build yet more worthless buildings to their greed and ignorance. I signed up on their mailing list to see what these idiots are up to. You can see how some Christians reveal just what they stand for here.

This is what I got recently. I do like that right off, poor ol’ God is left out. How pagan!

“Dear Friend of Jesus and Mary:

My heartfelt thanks to all of you who have reached out to me regarding your prayerful interest in the proposed shrine to the most holy Mother of God in thanksgiving for the overturning of Roe v. Wade.  Since my appearance on Matt Fradd’s Pints with Aquinas a couple of weeks ago, the outpouring of support for this project is beyond humbling.  Please know that your support, especially your prayers, are a crucial part of our discernment as we explore the possibilities of carrying out this noble undertaking.   God’s will be done. 

I wanted to simply send you an update to where things stand with this project as we take the first moves forward with this call ‘one step at a time’.  In the past couple of weeks I have:

  • Assembled a dedicated, visionary team who will assist me in promoting this cause and God-willing, making it a reality.
  • Made contacts with two very talented and faith-filled architects who have generously offered their abilities to produce an initial, proposed model for the building.  This will be crucially necessary at this initial, exploratory phase of the project.
  • Sought out a prospective site for the construction of the shrine in the idyllic and rolling hills of Southwest Pennsylvania (in the Pittsburgh metropolitan area).  
  • Taking the steps to formulate a 501c3 organization for this ongoing project.

Glory to God! The pieces are coming together!  I want to sincerely thank you again for your interest and prayerful support of this undertaking.   You will be hearing from me soon as we traverse the path on which Our LORD and Our Lady continue to lead us.   Continue to keep this project in your prayers!

Yours in Christ,

Fr. Jason Charron

PS — Please see the attached file with this email — a photo of the Majestic St. Michael’s ‘Golden-Domed’ Monastery in Kyiv, Ukraine — our architectural inspiration for this project.

I do live in PA, so I find it hilarious that they think they can build such complete crap here, considering how many catholic parishes have died out in the very region they want to pollute witih their golden lies. I also have to wonder about Catholics, who have long been hating the Orthodox churches using such a classic Orthodox design. They could alway refurbish one of the abandoned ones in Pittburgh or the surrounding area or reconsecrate one. Of cousre, being selfish Christians, they must have a “new” one.

https://architecturalafterlife.com/2019/03/our-lady-help/

https://newsinteractive.post-gazette.com/silentsanctuaries/

https://triblive.com/local/valley-news-dispatch/work-to-refinish-new-kensington-churchs-onion-dome-continues/

Not So Polite – you’d think they’d learn, yet another set of “questions for atheists”

So, a Jewish fellow, actually a Christian, since he is one of those “jews for jesus” ignoring how Jesus failed as the messiah, has asked yet more questions of atheists. (I’m found this nonsense on Bruce’s blog)They always claim not to be asking to shore up their faith or being antagonistic, etc. This has never been the case in my experience but we’ll go with this as it is offered.   I’m also going to guess that Brown has never ever read a single counter-apologetic.   If he had, then he’d not have needed to ask these questions.  I’m guessing also that Brown only wants ask question so he can play the martyr.  I could be wrong, but these things usually end with whines of “but but you didn’t respect me!” 

Damn right I didn’t. 

“First, would you say that you are (or, were) an atheist based primarily on intellectual study or based on experience? Or did you never believe in God at all?”

Both study and experience.   I was a Christian, read the bible, realized it was no more true than other myths.   The fact that there is no evidence for any of the essential events in it is part of the reason I don’t believe the claims of Christians, including you (I find your need to claim you are a Jew who follows Christ amusing since the Jewish messiah doesn’t need a do-over per the prophecies. The website Jews for Judaism is a nice read).  I also know that Christians don’t agree on much of anything about their religions, so there is no reason to not think you are making all of this up.   The bible says true believers of this supposed messiah can do certain things and unsurprisingly, you can’t. 

After the question, you try to use some standard tactics to excuse why you religion doesn’t work, like blaming “organized” religion, which is just religion.  You also try the “oh you were just angry because this god didn’t give you want you want” excuse to try to claim that atheists only realize that religion is nonsense because of emotional reasons.

“Second, would you say that even as an atheist, you still have a sense of purpose and destiny in your life, a feeling that you were put here for a reason and that you have a mission to accomplish? Or is it primarily people of faith who feel like this, since we are simply the products of an unguided, random evolutionary process?”

Yep, have plenty of purpose in my life.  I make my own.  Don’t need a “destiny”.  I’m not that sadly needy to pretend I’m ever-so special.  Alas, for you, I’m not here randomly. You show that you have no idea what evolutionary theory says.  It isn’t “random” or “unguided” in the way you tries to pretend.   When theists attack evolutionary theory, they should actually know what it is rather than choosing to intentionally lie or remain willfully ignorant. 

“Third, would you say that you are 100 percent sure there is no such being as God – meaning, an eternal, all-powerful, all-knowing being? Or would you say that, for all practical purposes you have concluded that this God does not exist, although it is impossible to prove such a negative with absolute certainty?”

Yep, I am 100% sure that any god described by humans is entirely imaginary.  These has distinct attributes that can be proven or disproven.  There is no evidence for such nonsense. We have no evidence that any of the supposed events caused by said magical being happened.  What we do have is at any date claimed by a Christian, we can show that entirely different things were happening.  So evidence of absence and absene of evidence.  Now, if you want to make up some vague and baseless claims as your god, then it becomes harder for you to show it exists at all.  Can you?  I’ll be waiting for an answer to that. 

“Fourth, do you believe that science can provide answers for many of the remaining mysteries of the universe, including: how the universe began (including where matter came from and where the Big Bang derived its energy); the origin of life; and DNA coding?”

Here, your assumption is that humans will never do another bit of research so your baseless claims about your god will remain untouched.  Even if we never figure out various things, there still is no evidence for your god.  Most if not every religion claims that its god/gods were the creator, and gee, not one of them can show this, despite most of them claiming “look the universe *my* god did that”.  

And yes, I do think that humans will figure out most of these things.  Then you and those like you will have to make up excuses yet again, with those gaps you need for your god growing smaller every day. 

You also seem to forget that DNA constantly screws up.  This would make your god incompetent. You may try to claim that the “fall” caused DNA to screw up, but this would show that Christian claims of “fine-tuning” would be impossible to see if the “fall” screwed up reality. 

Dr. Brown, these questions stump no one at all, so don’t be concerned about that. 

“Fifth, have you had any experiences in life that caused you to question your atheism? Has something happened to you that seemed genuinely supernatural or otherworldly? Or have you been confronted with some information that shook your atheistic foundations, such as a scientific argument for intelligent design? If so, how have you dealt with such doubts to your atheism?”

Nope, no magic exists so no magic experiences.  I can pretty much guarantee that the supposed events you and your wife supposedly had are nothing special at all.  It is notable you didn’t tell what they were, but just made vague claims. 

The argument for “intelligent design” is hilariously incompetent and not scientific at all.  It is just creationism dressed up in lies.  I live near the place where the Kitzmiller vs Dover court decision came from.  It’s notable that the book that the creationists tried to use had a lovely misprint in it “cdesign propentists”, since their find and replace missed where they were trying to change creationist to “intelligent design”.  Interesting when theists like you try to lie so poorly. 

“Sixth, are you completely materialistic in your mindset, meaning, human beings are entirely physical, human consciousness is an illusion, and there is no spiritual realm of any kind? Or are you superstitious, reading horoscopes or engaging in new age practices or the like?”

Completely materialist.   No evidence for magic. 

“Seventh, if you were convinced that God truly existed – meaning the God of the Bible, who is perfect in every way, full of justice and mercy, our Creator and our Redeemer – would that be good news or bad news? And would you be willing to follow Him and honor Him if He were truly God?”

The god of the bible is no different from the other bronze/iron age gods of the time.  This god is demonstrably not “perfect in every way, full of justice and mercy, our creator and redeemer”.   I’ve read the bible so false claims from Christians are easy for me to see. 

Let’s look at what this god does in the bible.  This god intentionally prevents Adam and Eve (A&E) from knowing what good and evil are.  Then this god either allows evil in or can’t keep it out.  This god then blames A&E, throws a tantrum and curses all mankind for the actions of two rather than explaining and forgiving.  This demonstrates quite a lack of justice and mercy.  And I’m not even out of Genesis yet.  We also have this god killing children for no fault of their own; committing genocide and accepting girls as sex slaves; telling slaves to never seek their freedom, etc.  A god so petty to need to kill/eternally torture those that disagree with it is a failure.  I have far higher moral standards than those of this god.  I might believe in it if there was evidence for it, but I’d never worship such a vicious ignorant thing.  If I was going to be a theist, there are far better gods claimed to exist. 

Now, Dr. Brown, what would it take for you to not believe in the version of this god you worship?   

What the Boss Likes – woo-hoo, got a new job!

Finally, I got a new job. The last in the green energy sector was a casualty of companies buying each other. This new one is for architects, and I get to write procedure manuals and do things with drawings. Hopefully, this will be the last job until I retire.

About time, I was really getting tired having little to do. Only so many times one can clean up the house and garden, and rip apart religious nonsense.

What the Boss Likes – our foster kitty

We have a foster momma cat and soon to have kittens. She showed up in our garden. I had thought she was a male kitty, thanks to a couple of fluffs of fur on her butt but she had a secret. Her name, for the moment, is Cleo. She’s a classic tabby with the whorls of color on her sides, rather than the stripes like most of our others. Once the kittens can eat on their own, the Humane Society will take them so they can find homes.

I also was able to remove a kitty from an idiot neighbor, and took her to the Humane Society. It broke my heart that I couldn’t keep her, but the very nice people at the shelter said she would be okay since she was young and friendly. I am a misanthrope with reason.

And a picture of our goofy cat Apollo who is sleeping under the coffee table.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – No rights for the Godless

Unsurprisingly, we get to see yet one more Christian theocrat and her lies. Caroline has a problem. She claims “But many others believe every human being, born and unborn, has an intrinsic right to life that supersedes any declared right to abortion.”

Her god doesn’t share that belief at all. This god kills children and require that wombs be ripped open to destroy what is inside. We also have this god killing David’s son for no fault of his own.

CAroline also says “Without God, we have no unalienable rights by virtue of our humanity. All our rights are determined and given arbitrarily by those in power, and as such, are neither guaranteed nor irrevocable.”

Actually, per Christians like Caroline, we don’t have any rights when it comes to this god. She and others claim that this god can do whatever it wants because it is powerful aka God. Per Caroline’s belief, all rights are determined and given arbitrarily by those in power and as such are neither guaranteed nor irrevocable.

Funny how Caroline wants to take most of those rights above in that lovely lil’ meme away.

a reasonable faith

It’s a rights free-for-all these days. Rights are in conflict with other rights; rights are being conferred and rights are being confiscated. And a lot of folks are feeling fairly frantic about it.

Can a right be legitimately taken away? Yes, and no. It depends on what kind of right it is and how we obtained it. If you as a parent decide that your 16-year-old has the right to stay out till midnight then discover that he’s been getting into trouble, you have the right to revoke his right. Because you are the one who gave it to him.

But what about those “certain unalienable rights” referred to in our Declaration of Independence? Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. They are ours not by fiat but as fundamental to our humanity. Who gave them to us? Or did anyone?

Of course, if they were conferred on us by someone…

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