Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – David Geisler’s claims from Debunking Christianity

A question Christians really can’t answer

Over on John Loftus’ blog “Debunking Christianity, he has put up a post from a pastor that John has invited everyone to address.  I thought it would make a good post here.  And yep, many dead horses will be beaten.

David Geisler seems to be the son of Norman Geisler, yet another Christian apologist.   Norm seems to be called a “systematic theologian: which seems to mean no more than christians that do acrobatics to “harmonize” their scriptures to make the incoherent make sense. (and then they proceed to claim each other are wrong in their claims of “reasonableness”).  Norm was a biblical inerrantist, a term that Christians can’t quite agree on, since they all have some parts that they want to pretend are literal, some metaphor and some they just ignore since those parts are inconvenient.  Bible inerrancy does not mean bible infallibility or bible literalism.  Which goes to show just how screwed up these people are in their inventions of their religion in their images.  That Ravi Zacharias spoke at his funereal speaks volumes about the quality of Norm.  You can see Norm’s very poor apologetics here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Geisler#Outline_of_Geisler’s_apologetic_system  They end up being rehashes of claims of “necessariness”, which the theist can’t support, the argument from creation assuming that Geisler’s version of the Christian god is the creator, and the argument from morals, which Christians can’t agree on what morals their god wants.  He also claims that the bible events have archaeological, scientific and historic evidence supporting them;  this evidence mostly consists of the bible being claimed as evidence and forgetting it is only the claim.

David seems not to have fallen far from the tree.    He seems to argue for the same failed apologetics.  He also makes some quite wonderful fails on his own.   We can take a look at his claims.

“About me thinking the only way you’re going to change your mind about God and Christianity is if you have some kind of experience like the apostle Paul, I probably should’ve said, is that once you truly understand the depths of what my father taught, and see that what he taught is really reasonable, then it would still take you some kind of experience to get your attention, which would take the work of the Holy Spirit. I apologize for not making that clear that that’s what I meant. I don’t believe that just religious experience in general is a good enough filter for you to know what kind of God, and what kind of religion you should embrace.”

So, we have David claiming that to really believe, there needs to be an event like Paul’s conversion, which Paul himself couldn’t keep straight.  So, why doesn’t this god provide this for every single person, if, as many Christians claim, this god wants everyone to come to it. Many of other Christians, of course, claim that this god doesn’t want to give this experience since this god only wants belief by faith.  Which Christian is the right one, if any?  We also have the problem that David’s father’s arguments are not reasonable and are nothing new, often used by non-christian theists too.  Christians don’t accept their own arguments from anyone else, so no reason to accept them at all.

“I’m sure you are very well aware 1 Corinthians 2:14 teaches that “the natural man does not welcome or embrace the things of the Spirit of God.” Please note it’s not that the natural man cannot perceive the truth according to Scripture, it’s that he cannot receive the truth. The Greek word is dechomai. It means to welcome or embrace the truth. Furthermore you may know that John 6:65 teaches that only God can draw people to Himself.”

It seems that David might be a calvinist, since he parrots the nonsense they have that only this god can bring people to itself, aka predestination and not free will.  Romans 9 agrees with John 6:65: “65 And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.””  Poof goes the claims of free will from some Christians.

“Further, Ephesians 4:18 says people are ignorant because of the hardness of heart. These are just my thoughts about what the Bible teaches is true, backed up with scripture to prove my point. Now I know this is pretty strong language, and normally I wouldn’t even share these verses with someone who doesn’t claim to be a Christian. “But since you’ve been to Seminary I assume you know all these anyways, so I’m not telling you anything new. I’m just trying to explain why I believe the Bible teaches it’s gonna take more than just giving you good evidence and reason for you to take that step to Christ.”

Now why wouldn’t David want to share these verses with anyone who wasn’t already aware of them?  Everyone can read the bible, nothing in it is secret.  David seems to be afraid of something if non-christians might know these things in the bible.  In the bible, one thing consistently causes hardness of the heart, this god.  We see this in Exodus many times, and in Ephesians 4, we see it again “18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of their ignorance and hardness of heart. “ with, John 6, we see that this god again causes this, with its intentional picking and choosing who can accept it or not.  (Deuteronomy 2, Joshua 11, Isaiah 63, John 12, Romans 11, 2 Corinthians 3,  also have this god controlling people’s minds aka “hardening” their hearts).  Perhaps David is afraid we will see that his god is no more than a tyrant.

“Concerning the Apostle Paul, as I said before, I thought his issues were also more theological since he was a good Jew, who would’ve had a vey hard time accepting the doctrine of the trinity. Now let me try to give you an example to back up my belief about this. In the last two years one of my staff and myself have been talking to this atheist. Over a period of time my staff member answered all his intellectual questions and one day he said to my staff member checkmate!, meaning he didn’t have any more intellectual barriers to faith. But he didn’t become a Christian. Then this atheist friend asked me to help him with a friend of his, who had made some bad decisions earlier in her life but was now having difficulty just surviving physically.”

 

No reason to believe this story at all.  But it might be true.  A shame that the only reason David wanted to help is to convert people aka get the external validation he craves.

“So I reached out to a church in the city where she lived and they reached out to her, and helped her physically. Now I got an email from her a couple weeks later and she said “thanks for helping me…I feel like I’m on my way to becoming a Christian.” I should also tell you that our atheistic friend whose name is John also, used to say to us “my Christian friends are nicer to me than my atheist friends.”

Again, convenient story that there is no reason to believe.  Humans are usually nice, religion makes no difference.  But so many Christians just can’t resist putting in their claims about how everyone thinks that they are so great.

“So when our atheistic friend heard what I did for his friend a few weeks later, I learned that he became a Christian. Now I’m not saying he became a Christian because of what I did for his friend. I’m say that my acts of kindness contributed somehow to him being more open to allowing God to work in his sinful heart and repent.”

And more baseless claims.  Christians do love to invent their stories.

“Sometimes I even say to atheists I talk to: “you mean to tell me if I could answer your question to your satisfaction right now about your biggest barriers to Christianity, that right now you would repent of your sins–you would turn around 180°–you would invite Christ to come into your life and ask Him to change you from the inside out as Philippians 2:13 says, and will follow as He taught us to live for the rest of your life?” “

Unsurprisingly, David has to lie and claims that atheists aren’t honest, if they simply say “yes” to this question.  Now, I can say yes to his question with no problem. The issue is that his magic spell at the end doesn’t work.  I was a Christian and invited this god to help me not lose my faith.  God never showed up.  David also makes believe that his version of Christianity and “follow as he taught us” is the right way since Christians don’t agree about that at all.  David’s excuse for his god being a no-show 40 years ago will likely be “mysterious ways”, despite what he has claimed about how much he knows what his god does and wants so far.

“Now sometimes if an atheist I’m talking to is more honest, they will say no because there’s probably some other areas that are barriers. So when I’m witnessing to a skeptic I always point out there are two questions you must answer concerning Christianity before you become a Christian: First is there enough evidence to believe that Christianity is true? Now that involves apologetics. But then once you’ve decided that it is true, it doesn’t automatically make you a Christian. You have a much more difficult decision to make. You have to decide “do you wanna believe in Christ?” That’s a decision of your will, not your mind, and that does not involve apologetics.”

Per David’s words so far, this not a matter of will at all, it is a matter if this god chose you to be able to accept it.  He has changed his mind on what he wants to claim is his god’s MO.

“Now both of these decisions are essential for someone to become a Christian. By the way my father would often say that both the presuppositionalist apologists and the evidentialist apologists don’t understand clearly the distinction between “belief that” and “belief in” That has been my experience in dealing with some of them as well. I also like Bill Craig’s distinction between that we know something is true and how we show something is true.”

This bit is very funny.  All apologists are presuppositional.  Norm presupposed his god is necessary and that it is only his god that can be the creator.  There is no difference between “belief in” and “belief that”.  Christians believe in their god, and Christians believe that their god is real.  Same idea. WLC is just as incompetent as Norm in his presuppositions.  The poor guy’s whole argument about the resurrection is that there was an empty tomb when he can’t even show a tomb exists.

“Romans 8:16 teaches that “the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the sons of God.” As you probably know, Saint Augustine said faith is an understanding step and the understanding step is faith’s reward. I’ll have to say faith and reason still can be complementary, I just have to clarify what you mean by faith, which a lot of Christians don’t do.”

There’s that holy spirit again, which demonstrably from Christian claims, can’t tell anyone the same story twice since all Christians claim that they got their version from the holy spirit.  Faith is not understanding, faith is blind acceptance, aka the presuppositions that Norm, David and Bill make to try to claim that their religion is true.

“As for your question about whether I’ve led any Chinese to Christ when I lived in Singapore. Singapore is a tiny little country but I did travel all throughout Asia over 13 countries I did training in. The answer is yes…a lot. Whenever I would preach it’s very rare that someone would not indicate they want to pray to receive Christ, especially if I ended I’m talking about my sister’s suicide, and I’m telling my audience I’m not sure where my sister is because I’m not sure if she was ever a Christian…even though she grew up in the home of Norm Geisler.”

Interesting argument, but it’s essentially the argument from popularity.  David forgets that Muslim evangelists do the same things as he does and get converts too.  It’s a shame that David has to use his sister in this way, in his sadistic fantasies: “ooh, she might be in hell” and cue the crocodile tears about something that David agrees with.  All he has is fear to try to scare people into agreeing with him.

“So that’s why I believe that it’s not always a matter of having enough evidence why people don’t take steps to Christ. In fact, it reminds me of what Jesus said in the parable in Luke 16:31. He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

Yep, luke does have this and its because JC claims that his father and he do their best to pick and choose who can accept them, and then damn the rest for no reason.  Luke also has this “king” saying that anyone who doesn’t want him as king should be brought before him and murdered by his followers (Luke 19).  Many christians very much don’t like that parable since it is rather obvious who the “king” is supposed to be.

“You may be interested to know that my wife grew up with idols in her home. she did not grow up as a Christian home and many in Singapore did not grow up as Christians. I also want to clarify what I said about once you establish the evidence for a theistic God, then miracles are not only possible they are probable when you look at the evidence for Jesus.”

Oh my.  Such a baseless claim.  David doesn’t explain how this works at all. However, we do know how it works.  When you are convinced of a thing, no matter if it is true or not, then you assign coincidence and parlor tricks to this thing as evidence for it, since you now are invested in maintaining your belief that you have some special knowledge and the friendship of some magical being.

“The Cosmological argument establishes that an infinite power exists that created the universe. So once you’ve established that logically then you can build on that argument. I’d like to say you can piggyback off of it.”

Well, that’s what Christians would like to pretend.  The Cosmological argument only works if you have the presupposition that there needs to be a creator.  We have no evidence that one is needed or “necessary” at all.  Only most theists need one.  We have no idea if cause and effect are part of the universe’s beginning or existence.

“Afterward you can establish the moral argument for the existence of God. It’s true you cannot start with a moral argument, because you haven’t demonstrated the principle of cause-and-effect that you do in the cosmological argument.”

nope for this one too.  That Christians can’t show or agree on what their god wants as morals, we have no evidence or need for an objective lawgiver.  What we have are Christians who have no problem with this god doing horrible things and also being horrified if humans did the same things.  If it is the actor that determines if an action is moral or immoral, then the action is subjective and thus Christians have a subjective morality, one based on might equals right.

“Then you can hear the teleological argument and conclude that a theistic God exists.”

The teleological argument is the argument from design.  Sigh.  So, we have David who thinks this can be used to show that his version of the Christian god is the only designer.  It doesn’t. It tries to claim that something designed reality, and has no evidence for that at all.  It also can be used by any theist and poor David doesn’t believe other theists when they use it.

“You can also add the ontological argument, although David Hume’s criticism is correct that if you start with the ontological argument you cannot get where you want to go. And so we a moral intelligent personal and necessary being sounds like the God of the Old Testament, a Theistic God.”

As you can see above, we don’t have a “moral, personal, and necessary” being at all.  I do note that David didn’t try to show evidence for how personal this god is. Good idea on his part, since all he has are baseless claims that other religions use too.

“But when you’re arguing for the cosmological argument I don’t think it’s enough just to argue beginning with the causality argument, because of the criticisms of Hume, but once you understand what act in potency is, and what a contingent being is, and what a necessary being is, then you can establish the current causality argument as well, and it strengthens the cosmological argument.”

All of those things that David mentions, “act in potency” etc are made up nonsense from apologists (Aquinas) who need to pretend that their god exists.  Still no evidence that anything is necessary at all.  And since the cosmological argument relies on nothing more than opinion e.g. the most “perfect” thing idea, it still fails dramatically.

“Now I’ve already told you my father also has an argument for God based on the argument from being, that we have in the appendix of his book 12 Points That Show Christianity Is True. Now if you’re interested, I’ll send this to you and you can look at that and tell me whether you think it’s valid argument or not. I would be curious to get your opinion I plan to get it presented in philosophical journal sometime this next year, because it’s never been critiqued from an academic point of view. If you have any suggestions I’ll be glad to hear them as to where I should send it. I think I told you my father thought that this argument was one of his most important contributions to Christianity. Hope this is all helpful information for you, maybe not to change your mind, but at least to help you understand the Christian faith doesn’t have to be unreasonable!”

No one needs to have David send his father’s nonsense to them, we can see that on his father’s wiki page. As I noted above, it’s nothing new or true at all.  And for his desire to present in a philosophical journal, oh my.  All of his father’s claims have been long addressed by academia and all of his father’s claims have been found wanting.

Yep, the Christian faith still is unreasonable.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – I’ve not had a complete nut for a while: Christian Identity, Aliens and multiple dimensions

I’ve not had a complete nut for a while.  Here’s one I ran into on youtube.  Amazing how many rocks these idiots are under. After calling his lies out several times, I get this:

“Thank you all for pointing out my errors & challenging my position &/or perspective. It has reminded me of how short sighted I can be when wrapped up in my own head. I knew what I was trying to say, I just couldn’t express it coherently. My intention has not been to convince anyone of anything; it is just my understanding of things based on my layman level studies & life experiences conveying it in a free exchange of ideas in response to “Apologetics Squared’s” comment.

I hope it can be clearly understood with my words, this final time. My equation of good/evil = evil/good & explanations thus far have fallen short of achieving a clear & concise understanding of my perspective. I realize the fault rest in my lap, alone. I believe an illustration would be helpful.

 A graphical illustration with words hopefully will do the job. Hopefully we can all agree at some level the following: 1. good & evil exists & a line separates the two with various degrees of each. 2. Morality & immorality are connected to good & evil in some shape form or fashion. 3. Ultimately, we all have the same origin 4. We are all similar, yet each of us is very unique.

After much reflection I realize it is actually much more complicated, yet simple at the same time.

Imagine a graph with, good in the upper left quadrant, evil in the lower left, evil in the upper right & good in the lower right. Above the left half we label good & the right evil. On the left side, what is good is moral, what is evil is immoral. On the right side, evil is moral & good is immoral. Therefore we have the equivalent perspectives on both sides inverted, essentially a mirror image. When expressing in an algebraic equation it can be expressed as good & moral/evil & immoral ≈ evil & moral/good immoral.

Above the graph place a circle directly centered above & connected to the line dividing the left & right halves. Now, from that same point on the circle touching the centerline, encircle the whole graph. Insert the word Source in the circle on top. The right & left halves are the perspectives of moral & immoral in relation to good & evil. It should like the #8 with a much larger lower half divided into 4 equal quadrants vertical & horizontally. Does scripture support any of my ideas to this point?

According to the Bible scriptures, light was created & separated from darkness on day 1. The Sun, Moon & stars where placed on day 5, not created. Then mankind was created on day 6. (Rev. 1) We can surmise from this that light & darkness are not day & night, (in verse 1), in the normal sense.

They have an alternate or dual meaning. Examples of light & darkness not being from material sources, such as the sun, moon & stars is 1 John 2:8-11, 2 Pet.

1:19, 1 Pet. 2:9, Mic. 7:8-9, etc. They infer good & evil.

This should at least verify the left ½ of the graph. We now need to interject mankind into the graph. We are the ones that have the perspective based on several factors which are varied. In order for man to have the capacity to be good, or evil there has to be something inherent we possess.

Christian circles call it sin nature. Perhaps others will call it the duality of man. What is the origin of mankind & the different races? These questions have pondered many. The standard narratives of explanation lack satisfying the curiosity of most, imo. There is so much controversy in this subject many dare not tread near its path. The following, many will probably find preposterous, or some other adjective, with added expletives. If so, well so be it, such is life.

In animal husbandry we have “pure bred” animals of all sorts. We also have produced new breeds of the various types of animals. We know that once, let’s say a mare is bred with another breed of stallion, the result is a mixed breed.

We also know that same mare can no longer birth pure bred offspring. We know that some breeds are preferred over others for their intended purposes. We also know when interbreeding to often there are many various undesirable results. The same principles applied to animal husbandry also apply to mankind. It is a genetic thing, from my understanding. I’m sure we have all heard of mankind’s Royal bloodlines. Some can be traced back for centuries & millennia.

Perhaps we have all heard the phrase, “spawn of Satan”, most often used in a metaphoric sense. What if the spawn of Satan is an actual bloodline? It would explain much where religious dogma is lacking, imo.

Let’s go back to Eden. Perhaps what Eve partook of was from the serpent’s seed. Then she partook of Adam’s seed the same day, even within the same hour. Then she bore twins they named Cain & Abel. Since Cain later murdered his brother Abel we can surmise Cain was the spawn of Satan. Let’s call this the evil seed line & add seed line to evil above the right side of our graph. Adam & Eve were not of this line & had other children. We can place this in our graph above the left half & call it good seed line.

A reference to satanic seed line:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTb5-xuFrlA (NOTE: Many will find the reference link racist. I do not endorse any negative racial claims in the video. I do not believe in any type of racial superiority. The video has many Biblical references that traces wording to the Hebrew roots that support my above statements.)

Now we have a graph that is almost completed with biblical reference to both sides, at least arguably so. We must now take into account the perspective of each individual from both seed lines on each side of the graph. If I am of the evil seed line my perspective will be in opposition to the good seed line, & vice a versa. Since both seed lines are corrupted with that of the other, due to seed injection from both sources into Eve, there are varying degrees of good & evil on both sides. How they are perceived by each side varies in degrees depending upon where one is located in the graph.

I hope you are able to visualize that. I’m certain we will not all agree, if anyone for that matter. I am not yet done. There is archeological, anthropological & sociological evidence of ancient origin that testifies to a similar “creation of mankind” narrative that has taken place all over the world at different periods of time. Zecharia Sitchin’s “Earth Chronicles” is one such source.

I am of the opinion it explains the source of our different races. This justifies our graph to be duplicated for each race. If we were able to inter-relate these graphs we would have a multidimensional montage of the interrelationship of good & evil, how they interrelate to moral & immoral in the varying degrees as perceived by all people.

If one can image how this would look, I believe it will explain many things, as well as raise many more questions. I once heard of a study conducted of the many attributes of God. Their conclusion, God is a being of at least 26 multiple dimensions.

We haven’t yet fully understood the 3 dimensions we live in & many hardly believe another dimension even exists we call spiritual. I hope you can at least visualize a picture of what I am expressing. Even with all this, it is not complete. I am not sure it can be on the level we exist upon.

This is my perspective of things. It doesn’t explain everything, nor is meant to. It just makes since to me & explains plenty of things about life. It is obviously very controversial & debatable.

When we debate about who is right are wrong we will just be chasing our tail, or ghost, or boogeymen that don’t exist. Nor will it bring unity & communion to mankind. On the other hand, when we realize we are from the same source, that there as so many perspectives, discipline ourselves to empathize with others & connect as many dots as possible in the multidimensional montage I have attempted to grammatically characterize, we will have unity & communion. If nothing else, our common ground will always be the source above which encapsulates us all. I’ll let you label that source whatever feels comfortable to you. In the infamous words of Forest Gump, “That’s all I got ta say about that.” God bless everyone, Amen.”

Now, this is my response:

I appreciate the time you took to write this.  However, it is full of baseless claims and false claims, no more than the usual apologetics to try to excuse this god.  And you still have lied: “Satanist/Luciferians believe it is moral, (perhaps not all of them)”

You have done an interesting job in showing that religion has people make up and believe in “insane” things.

Morality and immorality are what humans use to describe what they want to claim is “good” and “evil”.  In my opinion, there are some standard ideas of good and evil, and they track with what allows society to work, based on property rights and individual rights.  We have a problem with Christans when they don’t agree on what morality or “good” their god wants but they demand to have their opinions taken as some truth. All humans have their origin here on earth, and the evidence points to evolution and a common universal ancestor.  There are thousands of religions who all claim that their god is the creator, and none have evidence for this.  We are indeed similar and unique.

Your drawing is this:

It makes little sense.  Not sure where you are getting any algebra at all

The bible says that light was separated from darkness.  There is nothing in Genesis that says that this is a metaphor.  The sun, moon and stars are created, since the bible, and Christians, claim that this god created everything.  “ And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. “  You are already misrepresenting what the bible says, either out of intent or ignorance.  The author of genesis’ ignorance about how light works doesn’t mean that this author had any deeper meaning intended.  This is apologetics, trying to retcon one part of the bible to match others.

So it doesn’t verify the graph at all.  It has nothing to do with the graph.  You can’t explain what this supposed “perspective” is either, hand-waving it away.  You assume a objective good and evil, which again you can’t show, nor can you show anything “inherent”.  You simply assume that like every Christian and present no evidence for it.

I have no problem with the fact supported origin of humanity and the different races: evolution and adaption.  That theists want magic involved is childish.  Your nonsense is indeed preposterous, baseless and racist.

You show your ignorance on how breeding works.  “We also know that same mare can no longer birth pure bred offspring”  You are so amazingly racist with your lie that a mare somehow can’t have a offspring of her breed if she breeds with a stallion of her breed after mating with a stallion of a different breed, e.g. a Thoroughbred mare can’t have a Thoroughbred foal if she mates with a Thoroughbred stallion after breeding with a Arabian stallion.  You don’t even understand basic biology.  How pathetic.  Your nonsense comes right from wannabee nazis and white supremacists.

The “undesirable results” from interbreeding are nothing more than human opinion, but again, nice racist lies. You belong on Stormfront with your miscegenation lies.

Your ignorance about “royal” bloodlines also shows your ignorance.  We have had quite the failure with limited genetics in those lines e.g. inbreeding having things like hemophilia showing up in European royal lines.

There being no satan, and theists claiming that satan is just a magical spirit there is no magical bloodline.  All you want is to believe your racist nonsense.

Again, we have you making up your very own interpretation of the bible to make up your own religion and god, just like every other Christian.  It’s quite hilarious to see how Christians invent new nonsense for their myths.  Nohting in the bible supports your baseless claims so we have baseless claims on top of baseless claims.  And your very own myth comes up with a problem since satan sperm would be with both children, but heck you just invoke more nonsense.  The story has Cain murdering Abel because a very stupid god favored one over the other for no reason, and this omniscient god knew what would happen.  Then of course we have Cain finding more people around and whole cities so the whole Genesis thing is such a pitiful failure.

You’ve already shown you are a racist so you do support the “negative racist claims” in your pathetic video.  You do claim that there is racial superiority with your attempts to claim that “some” people are satanic.  Always good to see racists run away from their responsibility.  All you have is just more Christian Identity aka Nazi nonsense.

We do have a graph and that graph is complete nonsense and created by a poor lil’ man who wants to pretend how great he is.  I do love how the “born that way” nonsense shows how again, Christians can’t agree on free will or predestination.  It’s also hilarious that what you’ve think you’ve invented is nothing more than an alignment chart from a role-playing game.  Sorry, that’s been around for years.

There is no “archaeological, anthropological and sociological” evidence for your lies, Kirk.  You just are recycling the social Darwinism bullshit that was left behind decades ago, except for wannabee nazis.  There is nothing to support your claim of a similar creation narrative all over the world.  One just has to know about the religions of others and their myths to know that is an outright lie.  Stichin is an ancient astronaut nitwit whose claims have been shown as lies again and again.  He’s about as silly as Velikovsky.

Your baseless nonsense is indeed your opinion and it has nothing to do with reality.  There was no “study” on the attributes of this god, only more baseless opinion, since there is nothing to “study” and theists don’t agree.  It’s always so cute when some idiot theist decides to lie about string theory to make their baseless claims sound important.

Your “perspective of things” is nothing more than the usual incoherent nonsense invented by human being who wants to pretend he knows some magical secret.  It doesn’t explain anything and I think you know that since you already are backtracking on it when you know it doesn’t hold up.

You want to falsely claim that if we debate right and wrong, we are “chasing our tail”.  That’s the common attempt by a person who knows his lies won’t hold up so he wants to try to convince everyone not to look hard at what he says and find that it is ridiculous. The good thing about science is that it is true no matter what.  Your nonsense isn’t even close.  Your attempt to claim that everyone’s opinion is equal is the what liars and racists want to spread in defense of their failure.

Very scary that people like are around and they drive!

Not So Polite Dinner Conservation – more tasty conservative Christian stupidity

Well, we have “Red”, a complete idiot from somewhere around Tucson, Arizona.  He/she (I’ll default to he since most idiots like this are guys) appears to be one more ignorant conservative Christian who quotes G.K. Chesterton and does so incompetently thanks to the image that “Red” uses in their gravatar.

On this post, Red commented and wrote: “Was Hitler a tool of God? Yep. God let him crush apostate and atheistic nations. Then the US came in with prayer and sacrifice. then his dreams died, but he sent a half-million SS and Gestapo into the world. Most notably, the USSR took in close to half, and white Muslim nations many of the rest.

https://conservativecolloquium.wordpress.com/2008/12/14/hitlers-war-on-christianity-quotes/ shows his bigotry against Christianity. Private quotes on Mein Kamph shows he thought people who actually think he believed what he wrote are morons. Today, we have much antisemitism in liberal groups in the US.”

of course this is one of the stupidest things I’ve read in a while.  Red’s points are:

1.  Hitler was a tool…. I mean “tool” of Red’s version of the Christian god.

2.  Hitler was allowed by this god to “crush apostate and atheistic nations”.

3.  The US somehow defeated Nazi Germany by “prayer and sacrifice”.

4.  Somehow Hitler sent a half a million “SS and Gestapo into the world”

5. The USSR took in a lot of these and “white Muslim nations” took in many of the rest.

6.  Hitler hated Christianity.

7.  There are “private notes” that somehow disagree with all of what Mein Kampf says.

8.  No one is right about Hitler except Red.

9. Liberals in the US are anti-semitic.

So, to look through this idiocy, let’s consider each claim:

  1. Per Red, this god used Hitler to cause genocide against the Jews, homosexuals, the disabled, Roma, etc. But Red tries to accuse people for being anti-Semitic.  Exactly how is this god not anti-semitic?  Poor Red, too stupid to make a coherent argument.
  2. Hitler failed entirely in crushing anyone. And any country he invaded wasn’t an atheistic or apostate nation.  The closest one was the Soviet Union and they kicked Adolph’s ass.  I’m sure that poor Red would be horrified that the Night Witches, female pilots, helped.
  3. Many nations worked together to end Nazi Germany, more than the US. Poor Red has to lie to make himself feel special.  Sacrifice, and not prayer, is what worked.  Red is a pathetic liar.
  4. No evidence of this at all. And the US took a lot of Nazi rocket scientists in, so if Red wants to brag about not accepting Nazis, he’s a liar again.
  5. What the heck is a “white muslim nation”? it seems that Red is being stupid again, lying with no evidence to support him.
  6. Hitler was a Roman Catholic Christian. He repeatedly stated how he was this and how he hated the Jews because they killed Christ.  For his quotes about this, here you go.
  7. Poor Red, the website that he gave is a private one of a coward who doesn’t’ allow anyone to see his lies unless he approves. “This site is marked private by its owner. If you would like to view it, you’ll need permission from the site owner. Request an invite and we’ll send your username to the site owner for their approval.”
  8. Red must lie and fail just like so many other conservative Christians. He depends on lies that can be shown to be wrong.  Poor dear.
  9. No evidence for Red’s lies for this either. In fact, reality shows that Red is an incompetent liar since liberals are very much against anti-Semites like Trump’s “fine people”  g. wannabee nazis and confederates.

One more idiot in the conservative Christian ranks shown for what he is.  He’s done such a great job in showing that Christianity is crap.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – free will not working out well

I’ve been chatting with a pastor here.  It’s about free will and this is a good succinct discussion showing how free will fails pretty quickly for Christians. I’m expecting this all to vanish on his blog.

Here’s how things have been going (the pastor’s quotes are in italics):

“exactly how is it just to kill a child for the actions of its parents?”

“Isaiah 55:8-9
New King James Version
8 “For(A) My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
9 “For(B) as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.”

“I thought you might try that one. There is a problem with it. If good and evil are objective, and Christians claim that their morals are objective and come directly from this god, how is it that a human killing a child for no fault of their own is evil and a god doing it is good?

It seems you have a morality based on what something is and not the action. I’ve seen that in a lot of Christians, that they claim that this god can do anything it wants with its creations. That is no more than might equals right.”

God has a purpose for everything He does.

“that’s an excuse, Aldtric. How does free will for David’s son work when your god’s “purpose” eliminates it? Your claim of free will doesn’t work if your god can always deny it.

Add that to the fact that your god doesn’t support free will and it seems you’ve invented your own version of Christianity.”

His purpose doesn’t eliminate it. We still have to chose to pursue it. OUR God doesn’t force us to do anything. God knows what we will chose, but the choice is always ours. God used Judas for His purpose because of his choice to betray Yeshua.

“It does eliminate it. how does a dead child pursue its free will?

Your god has removed any choice at all from this dead child. Your god repeatedly forces people to do things. Joshua 11 is a great example. Shall I quote it again? “20 For it was the Lord’s doing to harden their hearts so that they would come against Israel in battle, in order that they might be utterly destroyed, and might receive no mercy, but be exterminated, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.” No choice or free will there.

Your god worked with Satan to get its plan to work per Luke. How does working with evil reflect on a supposedly good being? No blood sacrifice, no salvation.”

“Their hardened hearts were due to their unbelief. They chose not to believe in Him and He used that for His purpose. It’s no different than someone who decides they aren’t going to follow the rules on their job. That is a choice. Because of their choice their boss intervenes and fires them. Even though it wasn’t their ‘will’ to lose their job, their choice resulted in losing it. Or, if you have a child that refuses to take out the trash on their own, but after a while you force them to do it even though they don’t want to. They still had a choice to do it on their own.”

That’s quite a lie, Aldtrick since the bible says that this god hardened their hearts, not what you tried to claim.

Not a lie. He intervened and ‘hardened their hearts’ because of their ‘choice’ of unbelief. God is sovereign. He is free to intervene for His purpose at anytime. He also hardened Pharaoh’s heart, but it was because of his unbelief. He allowed Satan to enter into the heart of Judas because of his attitude, but it was still Judas’s choice.

and more lies. Nothing is said about this. You’ve made it up to excuse your god. Nice to see your claim for free will disintergrate, Aldtrick. If this god can intervene anytime, then there is no free will.

Also nice to see you admit your god had to work with satan.

I’m going to make it short and simple. Our vertical relationship with God is the same as our horizontal relationships with one another. God has given us free will to chose or reject Him. As we go about our lives, He intervenes from time-to-time based on that decision for His divine purpose. As parents our children have free will. Children make choices on their on, but sometimes parents intervene based on their choice to obey them.

Again, still no evidence of free will at all with a god that can negate it at any time. You try very hard to try to claim human relationships are the “same” as a relationship with a god. That’s very silly, Aldtric.

when you intervene with a child you limit their free will. If they cannot do what they want, then there is no free will. Just like if your god prevents people from doing what they want.

You are digging yourself in deeper.

One last comment…1 Corinthians 2:13-14
New King James Version
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the [a]Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

and still more failure. Every Christian claims that the holy spirit tells them the “truth” and insists that any other Christian who claims the same thing is lying because they have no evidence.

You are again trying to claim that no one can “really” understand except you. That’s false. We see that all Christians do this since your claims don’t match.

addendum 7/16 at 7:57 PM EDT:

So much for a “last comment”

1 Corinthians 2:14
New King James Version
14 (A)But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Yes, so you’ve said. And repeating verses from a failed set of books is not impressive. Paul failed, Aldtric. He lied and claimed that JC would be back soon, e.g. during Paul’s life. It’s always good to see a Christian following a false prophet.

Thanks for adding to the discussion. I expected your responses as much as you expected mine. I will be praying that God INTERVENES and softens your heart and give increase to any good seed that’s been planted in you and kill the bad. Seeds of faith in Him through Yeshua the Messiah, Seeds of repentance. Seeds of salvation and seeds of a lifetime of real relationship with Him and much good fruit. Be BLESSTIFIED

It’s always amusing to see Christians trying to pretend that their version is better with the attempts to use “Yeshua” rather than Joshua or Jesus.  If you really want cred, then use the Hebrew.

It’s great to see you trying again to try to pretend that your god’s interference with free will isn’t exactly that.  Intervene also means “ to interfere (come into collision or be in opposition) with the outcome or course especially of a condition or process”  You want your god to mind control me and surprise, that won’t happen.  Your prayers fail.  So, Aldtric, why would this be?  That your god loves an honest atheist?  That you aren’t a Christian? Or that your god doesn’t exist.  Your silly attempt to try to make a brand out of your religion is hilarious. Really, “blesstified”? Ii guess you don’t think that being blessed is enough.

God bless you 😀

And the failed attempt at a Parthian shot.

Which isn’t a parthian shot.

6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

yep, and another excuse given when supposed omnipotent beings fail. Again, nice “One last comment…” Aldtric. Such a quote from JC, who speaks like any charlatan who fails. Like any pyschic or theist, your god suddenly is powerless: “5 And he could do no deed of power there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them.” – Mark 6

Why is god so limited by disbelief?

Well, hopefully that is it (I did get a few more bible verses copy and pasted at me).  We’re back to Christians trying to be insulting.  But still no evidence for their claims.

Addendum 7/18/2020 7:23 EDT

I’m posting because you aren’t the only one who thinks this way. I want my blog to be a forum for discussion. However, I’m not going to keep going back and forth. I will leave you to your reasoning. However, I won’t continue to entertain you blasphemous comments. I have had God answer more prayers than I can count. I won’t begin to tell you about them because you will have another explanation. I do appreciate the fact that you have given me another person to lift up in prayer. I love you and want you to come to know the one and only LIVING GOD, Yah, Adonai, The Lord God of Israel from Eternity Past to Eternity Future, through our Lord and Savior Yeshua, the Messiah, the Lamb of God, the Son of God, the Living Word. I will be praying for you. I only ask that when you are converted, that you strengthen someone else. BE BLESSTIFIED!

I know you won’t keep going back and forth, Aldtric, since you have realized you have nothing.

You try to hide behind claims of “blasphemous comments”, when you can’t show your god exists to be upset. And your god seems to have no problem with what I say, having not smited me yet.

If it is true and you’ve had your version of your god “answer more prayers than you can count”, you are quite a selfish man since you’ve never prayed for anyone to be helped. We have kids with cancer, vets who suffered terrible amputations and brain injuries and surprise, Aldtric couldn’t be bothered to pray for them or this god to heal them.

Yep, you claim you are praying for me. Nothing happens and you failed, Aldtric. How about you pray for people who need it? But of course you won’t since you know that nothing will happen.

Not converted, and you are a false prophet when you claim something will happen. I assume you do know what your god thinks about people who lie and claim that they speak for him, right

 

I’ll keep updating to see just where this goes.  (well, I would but he collapsed in failure).

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – churches got covid bailout money showing that they are no more than frauds

Unsurprisingly, Christians lined up to get covid money for their churches. The Friendly Atheist has a good article on it here.   Now, it’ll be interesting to see if one sect will whine about the others that they hate getting money.  I’m guessing other religions also got the same money, so it’ll also be interesting if a mosque or a synagogue got any and if the conservative Christians will take a hissy fit.

They likely won’t, since they all are pigs at the same trough.  They do a great job of showing that their god does nothing at all and is indeed the imaginary sky fairy that it is.

The hypocrisy is of course apparent.  They don’t want to pay taxes, they don’t want gov’t interference but they want to legislate their lies into law and get money to help them when their god didn’t.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – I think this bizarre Christian claim deserves a post of its own

My adversary on Kaleidoscope has come out with this curious thing as an answer to my comment “It is, of course, no surprise at all that our author here won’t answer these questions either: “For some reason this god wanted to keep humans ignorant of what good and evil are. Why? Your god wanted Hitler to do what he did, since Christians claim that *everything* is their god’s will. This god repeatedly uses horrible means to do what *it* wants, a completely selfish being. This god works with evil repeatedly, intentionally releasing Satan to corrupt the christians left after this god kills everyone else (Revelation 19-21). Is this a good act? one would hope you would say not.””

“Vel:

I’ll answer that last question. You throw so much out that it’s hard to answer it all. God wanted to keep humans “ignorant” of good and evil so he could become their good and evil. But in deciding to “become like God,” they can now make their own decisions about good and evil. Unfortunately, they do that with their limited understanding, and someone like Hitler arises, disobeying God’s commands at every turn, threatening the world, and still you blame God for what he did because God didn’t stop him. It is not selfish: it’s God allowing you and me and Hitler to have free will.

And I affirm that all God’s acts are good. He has warned us about the end of the world. It’s our choice to obey or not. Yes, I know. You don’t believe the God of the Bible allows us to have a choice. Another topic on which you and I disagree.

Have a nice day, Vel.”

This, in the most curious nutshell, is why I stand against religion, the acceptance of tyranny, harm and the spread of lies that it engenders.  The above claim is weirdly like Christian Gnosticism but from Bizarro World.

This was my response

Then answer what questions you want to answer, author.  I see you are trying yet more excuses. 

So, you say that “God wanted to keep humans “ignorant” of good and evil so he could become their good and evil.”
So, the good and evil that the fruit would give knowledge about isn’t the same as the actions of this god which wants to be a good and evil unto itself?   that’s what your claim means.  Wow.  And your god is evil too.  that’s interesting to know. 
Per your invented story, this god knows a good and evil that is not what he wants humans to know.  There is a good and evil beyond your god and humans now have the truth and we can see that your god isn’t quite what it claims.
I know the history of Hitler pretty well.  If you compare it to the actions of this god described in the bible, Hitler does what this god does and what this god wants.  Hitler was a Christian, author.  He cites the bible when this god claims that the Jews deserve death for not accepting this messiah. Per your bible, Jesus Christ says that anyone who doesn’t want him as king should be brought before him and killed (Luke 19).  yes, that’s part of a parable, and the parable is about Jesus being the king of kings.  You can offer another interpretation if you can come up with one. 
Again, no free will in the bible.  “20 For it was the Lord’s doing to harden their hearts so that they would come against Israel in battle, in order that they might be utterly destroyed, and might receive no mercy, but be exterminated, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.” – Joshua 11  another good example.  We don’t just disagree, author, you intentionally lie about what your bible says and I can support my position with chapter and verse. 
You claim you confirm that all of this god’s acts are good.  Your opinion is meaningless, coming from someone who would accept any action from this god.  If your claim is right, I know good and evil and I know your god is evil; I don’t accept its attempts to insist it is a good and evil separate from the good and evil from the tree. 

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – the continued failure of apologetics

I follow this particular Christian’s blog, The Kaleidoscope of Culture, which is a rather curious mix of apologetics and other things.  The author does occasionally write a reply to my comments but he consistently never actually replies to me in the comments, only putting his response in a separate comment. Thus, his replies go unanswered if I’m not actively looking for them.  it seems most curious that he chooses to try to obscure himself this way.

He recently had this post, The Limits of Apologetics, which is in effect an excuse why apologetics fail constantly.  As usual, excuses are given and questions are ignored by the apologist.  Here is my rebuttal of the original post  and then below, an rebuttal of the further excuses given.  As usual, the excuses given by a Christian dig them in deeper in to the morass of their contradictory nonsense.  One knows that as soon as a Christian mentions Hitler, it won’t end well for them.

So, to my questions: “We have claims of miracles, but funny how this god never does them where anyone but a believer can see. This god never allows a Christian to heal like the bible promises, no Christian goes to a pediatric cancer ward and clears it out. Why? Selfishness? Doubt?”

you answer “Neither of course, though perhaps doubt is one. But you know your Bible well enough that you should know the answer isn’t that simple. (Luke 4: 20 – 30; Mark 6: 1 – 6; Romans 8: 18 – 24; 2 Kings 13: 14; 1 Timothy 5: 23; 2 Cor 12: 9, John 16: 1 -33). As I said earlier, I wish I knew how best to help you.”

We have you “wishing” you could “help” me, but you have failed so far. Your bible has that this god will answer any request from one of its believers, so why does your “wish” aka prayer go unfulfilled? You say “neither” but you have no answer at all on what the reason supposedly is.

As for the answers, they are indeed that simple as we’ll see in the very verses you indicate, especially John 16. Nothing about why Christians like you fail to be able to do what the bible promises all baptized believes in christ can do. There are some pretty fine human excuses like the ones you use.

Let’s look at these various bible verses you want me to look at:

“20 And he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 Then he began to say to them, “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” 22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his mouth. They said, “Is not this Joseph’s son?” 23 He said to them, “Doubtless you will quote to me this proverb, ‘Doctor, cure yourself!’ And you will say, ‘Do here also in your hometown the things that we have heard you did at Capernaum.’” 24 And he said, “Truly I tell you, no prophet is accepted in the prophet’s hometown. 25 But the truth is, there were many widows in Israel in the time of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a severe famine over all the land; 26 yet Elijah was sent to none of them except to a widow at Zarephath in Sidon. 27 There were also many lepers in Israel in the time of the prophet Elisha, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian.” 28 When they heard this, all in the synagogue were filled with rage. 29 They got up, drove him out of the town, and led him to the brow of the hill on which their town was built, so that they might hurl him off the cliff. 30 But he passed through the midst of them and went on his way.” Luke 4: 20-30

This is such a classic excuse for a charlatan. That a charlatan can’t get away with lies to those who know them is obvious. Why does JC has to use such a classic excuse for why he fails? This doesn’t work very well with the common Christian claim that “everyone” knows about him and this god from Romans 1 and JC’s supposed own comments that his miracles are to be why people should believe in him. You can’t have it both ways. Either the miracles are believable or they aren’t. Your god, by default of its supposed attributes, can always make a believable miracle, being omnipotent and all. That it can’t and Christians are stuck with blaming humans and evidently the all-powerful strength of their disbelief, is telling.

“6 He left that place and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him. 2 On the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astounded. They said, “Where did this man get all this? What is this wisdom that has been given to him? What deeds of power are being done by his hands! 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. 4 Then Jesus said to them, “Prophets are not without honor, except in their hometown, and among their own kin, and in their own house.” 5 And he could do no deed of power there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them. 6 And he was amazed at their unbelief.” Mark 6

Same story, same nonsense. However, in this one, JC *can’t* do anything, just like a psychic who claims that they can read minds and offers the excuse that they can’t work in the presence of doubters. How convenient and how silly when JC and Christians claim that this god is omnipotent.

“18 I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory about to be revealed to us.” – Romans 8

Typical excuse of any charlatan who wants people to pay them now when they know nothing will happen and they have to get out of town. Paul was certain that JC would be back during his lifetime (Romans 8 “about to be revealed”, 1 Thessalonians 4 “that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord”), and Romans 13 “the day is at hand”). Paul died a false prophet. Christians now of course try to claim that ‘near’ doesn’t *really* mean near and ‘we’ doesn’t really mean ‘we’.

14 Now when Elisha had fallen sick with the illness of which he was to die, King Joash of Israel went down to him, and wept before him, crying, “My father, my father! The chariots of Israel and its horsemen!”” – 2 Kings 13

So, author, where does the OT have that believers in JC can do healing? Always interesting when a Christian runs to the OT that they ignore when convenient.

23 No longer drink only water, but take a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.” – 1 Timothy 5

Paul showing that he has no idea he is supposed to be able to do miracles. It’s as if, hmmm, he has no idea what the gospels actually said or Acts or what the book of james claimed. Now, how could that be unless he never read the gospels? This would make sense since he knows precious little about JC’s supposed life.

but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness.”” – 2 Corinthians

Interesting for a man who supposedly did miracles per Acts saying this. It’s another classic excuse, that somehow that the lack of ability to do anything now has to be claimed as evidence of the ability to do something. This kind Christian has listed all of the times Jesus and Paul disagree: http://www.voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html

16 “I have said these things to you to keep you from stumbling. They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, an hour is coming when those who kill you will think that by doing so they are offering worship to God. And they will do this because they have not known the Father or me. But I have said these things to you so that when their hour comes you may remember that I told you about them.

“I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. But now I am going to him who sent me; yet none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your hearts. Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocate] will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will see me no longer; 11 about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

16 “A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me.” 17 Then some of his disciples said to one another, “What does he mean by saying to us, ‘A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me’; and ‘Because I am going to the Father’?” 18 They said, “What does he mean by this ‘a little while’? We do not know what he is talking about.” 19 Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, so he said to them, “Are you discussing among yourselves what I meant when I said, ‘A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me’? 20 Very truly, I tell you, you will weep and mourn, but the world will rejoice; you will have pain, but your pain will turn into joy. 21 When a woman is in labor, she has pain, because her hour has come. But when her child is born, she no longer remembers the anguish because of the joy of having brought a human being into the world. 22 So you have pain now; but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. 23 On that day you will ask nothing of me. Very truly, I tell you, if you ask anything of the Father in my name, he will give it to you. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

25 “I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures, but will tell you plainly of the Father. 26 On that day you will ask in my name. I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am leaving the world and am going to the Father.”

29 His disciples said, “Yes, now you are speaking plainly, not in any figure of speech! 30 Now we know that you know all things, and do not need to have anyone question you; by this we believe that you came from God.” 31 Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe? 32 The hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, each one to his home, and you will leave me alone. Yet I am not alone because the Father is with me. 33 I have said this to you, so that in me you may have peace. In the world you face persecution. But take courage; I have conquered the world!” – John 16

So here we have JC saying that anything asked for in his name will be given, no exceptions. Christians get upset with this part since they know that despite their prayers and asking for things in JC’s name, nothing happens. They must claim that this god has exceptions, which is based in nothing but their admission that the bible must be wrong. They must claim that there is some “greater” reason why they don’t get what they pray for when again, that has no basis in their bible. The apostles said this was plain to them as literally stated, no apologetics needed.

But modern Christian insist that their interpretations are what is right, not a literal reading.

It is, of course, no surprise at all that our author here won’t answer these questions either: “For some reason this god wanted to keep humans ignorant of what good and evil are. Why? Your god wanted Hitler to do what he did, since Christians claim that *everything* is their god’s will. This god repeatedly uses horrible means to do what *it* wants, a completely selfish being. This god works with evil repeatedly, intentionally releasing Satan to corrupt the christians left after this god kills everyone else (Revelation 19-21). Is this a good act? one would hope you would say not.”

These are the questions that Christians won’t answer.

Addendum:  Our author is evidently afraid of me since he claims that his family tells him to never meet me (I never asked).  I had to ask:

“I’m sorry you are so frightened of me that you had to make up things to tell your family so they would be frightened too. So exactly how many atheist women have done anything violent, and how many conservative Christians have? That your have no trust in your god is evident. What loving caring god would allow someone to harm its chosen? That’s a direct question, author. Will you answer it? You could have said to your son (“Dad, you don’t really know. She could be anyone!”) any of these things from your bible: https://www.openbible.info/topics/protection

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Christian prayers don’t work again, news at at 11

This from the Pew Foundation:

“The virus also has impacted Americans’ religious behaviors. More than half of all U.S. adults (55%) say they have prayed for an end to the spread of coronavirus. Large majorities of Americans who pray daily (86%) and of U.S. Christians (73%) have taken to prayer during the outbreak – but so have some who say they seldom or never pray and people who say they do not belong to any religion (15% and 24%, respectively).”

So, we have Christians who fail.  Their prayers aren’t answered and they get sick and die just like the rest of us.  Their god does nothing.

Despite these promises:

“Go into all the world and proclaim the good news[d] to the whole creation. 16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: by using my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes in their hands,[e] and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.” – Mark 16

Some Christians will know that these verses were added hundreds of years after.  They get upset if you mention that other Christians don’t have a problem with this claim.

12 Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If in my name you ask me[e] for anything, I will do it.”  – John 14

I’ve had a christian claim that John 14 doesn’t mention “miracles”.  I asked him if JC’s “works” were building a really great wall then.  He ran away.

13 Are any among you suffering? They should pray. Are any cheerful? They should sing songs of praise. 14 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective. 17 Elijah was a human being like us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain and the earth yielded its harvest.” – James 5

For christians who claim that only the “apostles” could do miracles.

18 Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them.” Matthew 18

For christians who claim that its up to their god to do what it wants, it doesn’t answer prayers like this.

22 He said to his disciples, “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat, or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. 24 Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds! 25 And can any of you by worrying add a single hour to your span of life?[d] 26 If then you are not able to do so small a thing as that, why do you worry about the rest? 27 Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;[e] yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these. 28 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! 29 And do not keep striving for what you are to eat and what you are to drink, and do not keep worrying. 30 For it is the nations of the world that strive after all these things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 Instead, strive for his[f] kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions, and give alms. Make purses for yourselves that do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” – Luke 12

For christians who don’t like to be reminded that their god will supposedly take care of them and they should give up all they have.

All in all, evidence that Christianity/the bible is nonsense or that every single self-proclaimed Christian isn’t one or that Christians refuse to heal people when they can.

Quite a choice there.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – My chat with Ray Comfort transcripted

After some personal uncomfortableness on my part, listening to my own voice, I have transcripted my chat with Ray Comfort that was recorded by Ray and a copy given to me for my use.

 

Here is the transcript, since I personally really hate to listen to talking heads.  I read much faster than that, and a transcript is my favorite way to see what people say.  I didn’t put much punctuation to keep the feel of the chat, but I think it should be pretty easy to read.   I started with the autotranscript function on YouTube, and it was better than I thought it would be.  But a couple of times, it had issues with Ray’s accent, and evidently mine too 🙂 although I’ve read somewhere that central PA is about as accentless as it gets for an American.

There are some interesting bit that I wanted to comment on since there were some questions unanswered, and some topics we never got back to.

Here’s the bit about creationism (and the start of the discussion about morality):

V: No, well some of that did. I mean after I read it because it’s not very often that the pastors I grew up with would mention anything except for the pretty plain vanilla fuzzy good Jesus parts of it. basically I knew enough science to know that there was no such thing as a 28,000 foot deep flood and you know went on through that then I know after I read the Bible I saw where this God killed David’s son to punish David but you know didn’t care about the child and oh you know the you know the usual stuff that you’ll hear from various you know non-christians

R: so you’re saying that the flood, the noahic flood which was said to cover the whole earth wouldn’t have covered Mount Everest with 29,000 feet do you realize there was no such things as mountains in those days, they hadn’t pushed up

V: there’s no evidence that mountains are that young and there’s you know to try claim that there was no mountains requires quite a energetic geology that would essentially release so much energy that would broil pretty much everyone on earth

R: yeah well that’s kind of what happened in the beginning the mountains pushed up like volcanoes do anyway…

V: those aren’t volcanoes

R; no they’re not but they are made of stone or rock I guess… I don’t know we’re talking about things I don’t know much about well um do you want to use that name Vel or do you want to use your real first name

It’s notable that a creationist admits not to know much about the earth.  As I’ve written before, willful ignorance is behind most creationist claims.  Creationists, be they Christians, Muslims, etc, all need to either ignore reality or intentionally lie about it.  This causes them problems because their claims about creationism are contradictory, since they don’t even start out at the same place.  We have contradictory claims about how creation happened by theists, and we have many different claims about how the Noahic flood “really” happened; all dependent on an ignorance of basic science.  The folks over at Talk Origins have a good article on the failures of creationists with the bible flood.

After this we get into the morality discussion starting with my question to Ray about his god killing David’s son.  Here’s a bit about that:

“R: yes yeah he killed David son okay did God actually kill, is it David son? or yeah David son when he committed adultery with Bathsheba it didn’t bless him with the child he said the child’s gonna die there are repercussions to his actions but he lets solomon live which is wonderful (?)

V: would you be happy if someone killed one of your children and let the other one lives

R: no of course not I love all my kids

V: then why would you accept that from your God

R: oh because he’s the giver of life he’s a giver and the taker of life and he’s the one that blesses with health and and in life itself and a peace if he deems fit to take a loved one what can I do about it I just trust him I trust his integrity so let’s go back to the issue David had a son died and God took him and God says your child’s gonna die did they actually happen

V: did resurrection actually happen

R: no did David have a son that god killed

V: no no I did if that didn’t happen why should I think that the resurrection happened

R: oh no not talking about the resurrection what I’m trying to get you to say is that did God kill the son of David

V: yes that’s what the Bible says

R: yeah but it didn’t happen did it cuz you’re an atheist so you say it didn’t happen because God doesn’t exist so why are you upset about something it didn’t happen it’s like being upset about the fairy godmother turning Cinderella’s coach back into a pumpkin.”

V: (laughter) well let me ask you if let’s just say that it did happen

R: okay

V: and you said that you would have absolutely no problem with a god doing something you would be unhappy with the human doing correct

R: oh yeah I’d be I wouldn’t be the happiest man on earth of one of my children died but I know that God is the giver and the taker of life he created every bone every every drop of blood and my children he gave me the gift of children and if he deem fit that one of my children dies I can’t do anything about it but I can trust him I can trust him in it and say Lord you know what you’re doing you allowed this for some reason it may not be a perfect will but it should permissive will you’re permitted it and in that I rejoice I trust you because that’s what faith is about it’s trusting when often often things aren’t right

V: so you believe you have an objective morality from your religion correct

R: yeah absolutely

V: so if if it’s not moral for a human to do something why is it moral for your God to do it?”

If I were Ray’s kids, I’d be more than a little disturbed by this.  I’d do anything to save my kids or anyone’s kids and that includes standing against anything, god or not, that would try to kill them.  Heck, I’d do that for my cats.  Here, it seems that Ray’s best answer is that I shouldn’t care about some kid since it was long ago.  My morals don’t work like that.  Injustice and unfairness are forever.  He goes on to claim that since everyone is going to die, it isn’t a problem and that I should only be considered with my salvation.

We went back to creationism for a bit, and Ray deflected my request for evidence about which creationism is right.

“V: Christians are all they all have the one real truth but I what need to see is evidence that that is actually the case

R: well that’s it’s provable um now let me ask what’s that

V: how is it provable

R: we’ll come up to that in a few minutes

V: Laughter.”

And of course we didn’t.   That was fine with me since I knew at some point he would have to intentionally change the subject from something he didn’t like where it was going.

We discussed the Big Bang Theory a bit and unsurprisingly he intentionally misrepresented it.  That also wasn’t a fruitful path for him (get it? Fruit?).  So we ended up with the questions that Ray loves and are on more than few of his videos e.g. “Do you think you are a good person? Have you ever lied?”  Have you ever stolen anything? etc.

R: how do you think you’re a good think you’re a good person

V: I’ve heard you do this before yes I do think I’m a good person and I do not use your Bible or your interpretation to define what good is.

R: that’s what we often do that’s what I did before I was a Christian that’s what Adolf Hitler did I no doubt if I talk to Hitler he would say he was a good person because he had his own moral standard he cleaned up Germany got rid of brothels more than full employment got rid of the scum of the earth clean the German race and …

V: know that a lot of Christians think that he did a very good job you can see that on the news with the various Trumpies thinking having no problem with Nazism at all

R: you know what if I were you I wouldn’t cover the whole church with one blanket because Jesus spoke of true and false conversions he spoke of hypocrites he spoke he spoke of fake Christians and they’re the ones that often speak the loudest so don’t sweep with such a broad broom there are genuine Christians that believe the Bible love their enemies that do good they’re kind to other people they’re not nasty and if you find someone who is professing Christian and they they lack love you can say to yourself I don’t believe that person’s a genuine Christian, they are a Jew. “

Now, when he said this initially it caught me by surprise. The auto transcript picked it up as “ they are junius”. I had to rewind this several times and listen because I didn’t want to believe it but this does seem to be what he said.

We ended up at the questions about lies and stealing, oh and taking god’s name in vain later:

“R: let’s get back the question let’s get back to the question because we’re going down a rabbit hole um if you think you’re a good person how do you measure up to those Commandments

V: I don’t care about your Commandments

R: But how do you measure up to them

V: I don’t need to measure up to them

R: well let me ask you let me let me put you on the stand and see how you do how many lies do you think you’ve told in your life

V: I’ve told some and some were for a good reason just like the folks who did Anne Frank were lying to the Nazis”

This was again not working for Ray, and he had to claim I hate his god because I use his god’s name as a cuss word.  There was more about how I have to be hating his bogeyman.  There is more about morals, and I had a good time pointing out just how evil his god is.   That got me told that I was “misinterpreting” the bible, but no explanation on how this was the case.

Then Ray was revved up and his words got faster and faster as he tried to preach at me.  That preaching was interspersed with my laughter and refutations.  His attempts at sowing fear didn’t work and that did appear to confuse him, leading to more repetition and appeals to how much my parents love me.

After trying to tell me, a former Presbyterian/calvinist, that I didn’t understand predestination “correctly”, we ended up with Ray trying to tell me that this god of his was finally answering my prayers said 40 years ago.   That his god is timeless, yada, yada. Which again doesn’t match up with what the bible actually says.

“R: okay let me answer that God sometimes takes his time a day of the Lord is a thousand years to us and God is answering that prayer today and I’m trying to help you to restore your faith so you thank God that he chooses the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe. he speaks through donkeys he’s speaking through me today and telling you that he has no pleasure in your death and he’s answering your prayer and he wants to restore your faith. Okay”

And yes, I was very very hard pressed not to use the obvious joke here. 🙂

This whole thing had a great ending when Ray sent me a signed copy of his book “Banana Man”, and it had two Subway gift cards in it.  I guess that’s what happened to the other $7000 went.  You can see the saga of the subway cards here.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – A Pew Research Study “Half of Americans say Bible should influence U.S. laws, including 28% who favor it over the will of the people”

The Pew Research Center has a new study out about religion: “Half of Americans say Bible should influence U.S. laws, including 28% who favor it over the will of the people

“The U.S. Constitution does not mention the Bible, God, Jesus or Christianity, and the First Amendment clarifies that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.” Still, some scholars have argued that the Bible heavily influenced America’s founders.

Today, about half of Americans (49%) say the Bible should have at least “some” influence on U.S. laws, including nearly a quarter (23%) who say it should have “a great deal” of influence, according to a recent Pew Research Center survey. Among U.S. Christians, two-thirds (68%) want the Bible to influence U.S. laws at least some, and among white evangelical Protestants, this figure rises to about nine-in-ten (89%).”

As you see above, it’s pretty much what is expected.  Conservative Christians make false claims and then believe them. Continue reading “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – A Pew Research Study “Half of Americans say Bible should influence U.S. laws, including 28% who favor it over the will of the people””