Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – I think this bizarre Christian claim deserves a post of its own

My adversary on Kaleidoscope has come out with this curious thing as an answer to my comment “It is, of course, no surprise at all that our author here won’t answer these questions either: “For some reason this god wanted to keep humans ignorant of what good and evil are. Why? Your god wanted Hitler to do what he did, since Christians claim that *everything* is their god’s will. This god repeatedly uses horrible means to do what *it* wants, a completely selfish being. This god works with evil repeatedly, intentionally releasing Satan to corrupt the christians left after this god kills everyone else (Revelation 19-21). Is this a good act? one would hope you would say not.””

“Vel:

I’ll answer that last question. You throw so much out that it’s hard to answer it all. God wanted to keep humans “ignorant” of good and evil so he could become their good and evil. But in deciding to “become like God,” they can now make their own decisions about good and evil. Unfortunately, they do that with their limited understanding, and someone like Hitler arises, disobeying God’s commands at every turn, threatening the world, and still you blame God for what he did because God didn’t stop him. It is not selfish: it’s God allowing you and me and Hitler to have free will.

And I affirm that all God’s acts are good. He has warned us about the end of the world. It’s our choice to obey or not. Yes, I know. You don’t believe the God of the Bible allows us to have a choice. Another topic on which you and I disagree.

Have a nice day, Vel.”

This, in the most curious nutshell, is why I stand against religion, the acceptance of tyranny, harm and the spread of lies that it engenders.  The above claim is weirdly like Christian Gnosticism but from Bizarro World.

This was my response

Then answer what questions you want to answer, author.  I see you are trying yet more excuses. 

So, you say that “God wanted to keep humans “ignorant” of good and evil so he could become their good and evil.”
So, the good and evil that the fruit would give knowledge about isn’t the same as the actions of this god which wants to be a good and evil unto itself?   that’s what your claim means.  Wow.  And your god is evil too.  that’s interesting to know. 
Per your invented story, this god knows a good and evil that is not what he wants humans to know.  There is a good and evil beyond your god and humans now have the truth and we can see that your god isn’t quite what it claims.
I know the history of Hitler pretty well.  If you compare it to the actions of this god described in the bible, Hitler does what this god does and what this god wants.  Hitler was a Christian, author.  He cites the bible when this god claims that the Jews deserve death for not accepting this messiah. Per your bible, Jesus Christ says that anyone who doesn’t want him as king should be brought before him and killed (Luke 19).  yes, that’s part of a parable, and the parable is about Jesus being the king of kings.  You can offer another interpretation if you can come up with one. 
Again, no free will in the bible.  “20 For it was the Lord’s doing to harden their hearts so that they would come against Israel in battle, in order that they might be utterly destroyed, and might receive no mercy, but be exterminated, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.” – Joshua 11  another good example.  We don’t just disagree, author, you intentionally lie about what your bible says and I can support my position with chapter and verse. 
You claim you confirm that all of this god’s acts are good.  Your opinion is meaningless, coming from someone who would accept any action from this god.  If your claim is right, I know good and evil and I know your god is evil; I don’t accept its attempts to insist it is a good and evil separate from the good and evil from the tree. 

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – the continued failure of apologetics

I follow this particular Christian’s blog, The Kaleidoscope of Culture, which is a rather curious mix of apologetics and other things.  The author does occasionally write a reply to my comments but he consistently never actually replies to me in the comments, only putting his response in a separate comment. Thus, his replies go unanswered if I’m not actively looking for them.  it seems most curious that he chooses to try to obscure himself this way.

He recently had this post, The Limits of Apologetics, which is in effect an excuse why apologetics fail constantly.  As usual, excuses are given and questions are ignored by the apologist.  Here is my rebuttal of the original post  and then below, an rebuttal of the further excuses given.  As usual, the excuses given by a Christian dig them in deeper in to the morass of their contradictory nonsense.  One knows that as soon as a Christian mentions Hitler, it won’t end well for them.

So, to my questions: “We have claims of miracles, but funny how this god never does them where anyone but a believer can see. This god never allows a Christian to heal like the bible promises, no Christian goes to a pediatric cancer ward and clears it out. Why? Selfishness? Doubt?”

you answer “Neither of course, though perhaps doubt is one. But you know your Bible well enough that you should know the answer isn’t that simple. (Luke 4: 20 – 30; Mark 6: 1 – 6; Romans 8: 18 – 24; 2 Kings 13: 14; 1 Timothy 5: 23; 2 Cor 12: 9, John 16: 1 -33). As I said earlier, I wish I knew how best to help you.”

We have you “wishing” you could “help” me, but you have failed so far. Your bible has that this god will answer any request from one of its believers, so why does your “wish” aka prayer go unfulfilled? You say “neither” but you have no answer at all on what the reason supposedly is.

As for the answers, they are indeed that simple as we’ll see in the very verses you indicate, especially John 16. Nothing about why Christians like you fail to be able to do what the bible promises all baptized believes in christ can do. There are some pretty fine human excuses like the ones you use.

Let’s look at these various bible verses you want me to look at:

“20 And he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 Then he began to say to them, “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” 22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his mouth. They said, “Is not this Joseph’s son?” 23 He said to them, “Doubtless you will quote to me this proverb, ‘Doctor, cure yourself!’ And you will say, ‘Do here also in your hometown the things that we have heard you did at Capernaum.’” 24 And he said, “Truly I tell you, no prophet is accepted in the prophet’s hometown. 25 But the truth is, there were many widows in Israel in the time of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a severe famine over all the land; 26 yet Elijah was sent to none of them except to a widow at Zarephath in Sidon. 27 There were also many lepers in Israel in the time of the prophet Elisha, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian.” 28 When they heard this, all in the synagogue were filled with rage. 29 They got up, drove him out of the town, and led him to the brow of the hill on which their town was built, so that they might hurl him off the cliff. 30 But he passed through the midst of them and went on his way.” Luke 4: 20-30

This is such a classic excuse for a charlatan. That a charlatan can’t get away with lies to those who know them is obvious. Why does JC has to use such a classic excuse for why he fails? This doesn’t work very well with the common Christian claim that “everyone” knows about him and this god from Romans 1 and JC’s supposed own comments that his miracles are to be why people should believe in him. You can’t have it both ways. Either the miracles are believable or they aren’t. Your god, by default of its supposed attributes, can always make a believable miracle, being omnipotent and all. That it can’t and Christians are stuck with blaming humans and evidently the all-powerful strength of their disbelief, is telling.

“6 He left that place and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him. 2 On the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astounded. They said, “Where did this man get all this? What is this wisdom that has been given to him? What deeds of power are being done by his hands! 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. 4 Then Jesus said to them, “Prophets are not without honor, except in their hometown, and among their own kin, and in their own house.” 5 And he could do no deed of power there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them. 6 And he was amazed at their unbelief.” Mark 6

Same story, same nonsense. However, in this one, JC *can’t* do anything, just like a psychic who claims that they can read minds and offers the excuse that they can’t work in the presence of doubters. How convenient and how silly when JC and Christians claim that this god is omnipotent.

“18 I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory about to be revealed to us.” – Romans 8

Typical excuse of any charlatan who wants people to pay them now when they know nothing will happen and they have to get out of town. Paul was certain that JC would be back during his lifetime (Romans 8 “about to be revealed”, 1 Thessalonians 4 “that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord”), and Romans 13 “the day is at hand”). Paul died a false prophet. Christians now of course try to claim that ‘near’ doesn’t *really* mean near and ‘we’ doesn’t really mean ‘we’.

14 Now when Elisha had fallen sick with the illness of which he was to die, King Joash of Israel went down to him, and wept before him, crying, “My father, my father! The chariots of Israel and its horsemen!”” – 2 Kings 13

So, author, where does the OT have that believers in JC can do healing? Always interesting when a Christian runs to the OT that they ignore when convenient.

23 No longer drink only water, but take a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.” – 1 Timothy 5

Paul showing that he has no idea he is supposed to be able to do miracles. It’s as if, hmmm, he has no idea what the gospels actually said or Acts or what the book of james claimed. Now, how could that be unless he never read the gospels? This would make sense since he knows precious little about JC’s supposed life.

but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness.”” – 2 Corinthians

Interesting for a man who supposedly did miracles per Acts saying this. It’s another classic excuse, that somehow that the lack of ability to do anything now has to be claimed as evidence of the ability to do something. This kind Christian has listed all of the times Jesus and Paul disagree: http://www.voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html

16 “I have said these things to you to keep you from stumbling. They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, an hour is coming when those who kill you will think that by doing so they are offering worship to God. And they will do this because they have not known the Father or me. But I have said these things to you so that when their hour comes you may remember that I told you about them.

“I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. But now I am going to him who sent me; yet none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your hearts. Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocate] will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will see me no longer; 11 about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

16 “A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me.” 17 Then some of his disciples said to one another, “What does he mean by saying to us, ‘A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me’; and ‘Because I am going to the Father’?” 18 They said, “What does he mean by this ‘a little while’? We do not know what he is talking about.” 19 Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, so he said to them, “Are you discussing among yourselves what I meant when I said, ‘A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me’? 20 Very truly, I tell you, you will weep and mourn, but the world will rejoice; you will have pain, but your pain will turn into joy. 21 When a woman is in labor, she has pain, because her hour has come. But when her child is born, she no longer remembers the anguish because of the joy of having brought a human being into the world. 22 So you have pain now; but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. 23 On that day you will ask nothing of me. Very truly, I tell you, if you ask anything of the Father in my name, he will give it to you. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

25 “I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures, but will tell you plainly of the Father. 26 On that day you will ask in my name. I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am leaving the world and am going to the Father.”

29 His disciples said, “Yes, now you are speaking plainly, not in any figure of speech! 30 Now we know that you know all things, and do not need to have anyone question you; by this we believe that you came from God.” 31 Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe? 32 The hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, each one to his home, and you will leave me alone. Yet I am not alone because the Father is with me. 33 I have said this to you, so that in me you may have peace. In the world you face persecution. But take courage; I have conquered the world!” – John 16

So here we have JC saying that anything asked for in his name will be given, no exceptions. Christians get upset with this part since they know that despite their prayers and asking for things in JC’s name, nothing happens. They must claim that this god has exceptions, which is based in nothing but their admission that the bible must be wrong. They must claim that there is some “greater” reason why they don’t get what they pray for when again, that has no basis in their bible. The apostles said this was plain to them as literally stated, no apologetics needed.

But modern Christian insist that their interpretations are what is right, not a literal reading.

It is, of course, no surprise at all that our author here won’t answer these questions either: “For some reason this god wanted to keep humans ignorant of what good and evil are. Why? Your god wanted Hitler to do what he did, since Christians claim that *everything* is their god’s will. This god repeatedly uses horrible means to do what *it* wants, a completely selfish being. This god works with evil repeatedly, intentionally releasing Satan to corrupt the christians left after this god kills everyone else (Revelation 19-21). Is this a good act? one would hope you would say not.”

These are the questions that Christians won’t answer.

Addendum:  Our author is evidently afraid of me since he claims that his family tells him to never meet me (I never asked).  I had to ask:

“I’m sorry you are so frightened of me that you had to make up things to tell your family so they would be frightened too. So exactly how many atheist women have done anything violent, and how many conservative Christians have? That your have no trust in your god is evident. What loving caring god would allow someone to harm its chosen? That’s a direct question, author. Will you answer it? You could have said to your son (“Dad, you don’t really know. She could be anyone!”) any of these things from your bible: https://www.openbible.info/topics/protection

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Christian prayers don’t work again, news at at 11

This from the Pew Foundation:

“The virus also has impacted Americans’ religious behaviors. More than half of all U.S. adults (55%) say they have prayed for an end to the spread of coronavirus. Large majorities of Americans who pray daily (86%) and of U.S. Christians (73%) have taken to prayer during the outbreak – but so have some who say they seldom or never pray and people who say they do not belong to any religion (15% and 24%, respectively).”

So, we have Christians who fail.  Their prayers aren’t answered and they get sick and die just like the rest of us.  Their god does nothing.

Despite these promises:

“Go into all the world and proclaim the good news[d] to the whole creation. 16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: by using my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes in their hands,[e] and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.” – Mark 16

Some Christians will know that these verses were added hundreds of years after.  They get upset if you mention that other Christians don’t have a problem with this claim.

12 Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If in my name you ask me[e] for anything, I will do it.”  – John 14

I’ve had a christian claim that John 14 doesn’t mention “miracles”.  I asked him if JC’s “works” were building a really great wall then.  He ran away.

13 Are any among you suffering? They should pray. Are any cheerful? They should sing songs of praise. 14 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective. 17 Elijah was a human being like us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain and the earth yielded its harvest.” – James 5

For christians who claim that only the “apostles” could do miracles.

18 Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them.” Matthew 18

For christians who claim that its up to their god to do what it wants, it doesn’t answer prayers like this.

22 He said to his disciples, “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat, or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. 24 Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds! 25 And can any of you by worrying add a single hour to your span of life?[d] 26 If then you are not able to do so small a thing as that, why do you worry about the rest? 27 Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;[e] yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these. 28 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! 29 And do not keep striving for what you are to eat and what you are to drink, and do not keep worrying. 30 For it is the nations of the world that strive after all these things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 Instead, strive for his[f] kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions, and give alms. Make purses for yourselves that do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” – Luke 12

For christians who don’t like to be reminded that their god will supposedly take care of them and they should give up all they have.

All in all, evidence that Christianity/the bible is nonsense or that every single self-proclaimed Christian isn’t one or that Christians refuse to heal people when they can.

Quite a choice there.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – My chat with Ray Comfort transcripted

After some personal uncomfortableness on my part, listening to my own voice, I have transcripted my chat with Ray Comfort that was recorded by Ray and a copy given to me for my use.

 

Here is the transcript, since I personally really hate to listen to talking heads.  I read much faster than that, and a transcript is my favorite way to see what people say.  I didn’t put much punctuation to keep the feel of the chat, but I think it should be pretty easy to read.   I started with the autotranscript function on YouTube, and it was better than I thought it would be.  But a couple of times, it had issues with Ray’s accent, and evidently mine too 🙂 although I’ve read somewhere that central PA is about as accentless as it gets for an American.

There are some interesting bit that I wanted to comment on since there were some questions unanswered, and some topics we never got back to.

Here’s the bit about creationism (and the start of the discussion about morality):

V: No, well some of that did. I mean after I read it because it’s not very often that the pastors I grew up with would mention anything except for the pretty plain vanilla fuzzy good Jesus parts of it. basically I knew enough science to know that there was no such thing as a 28,000 foot deep flood and you know went on through that then I know after I read the Bible I saw where this God killed David’s son to punish David but you know didn’t care about the child and oh you know the you know the usual stuff that you’ll hear from various you know non-christians

R: so you’re saying that the flood, the noahic flood which was said to cover the whole earth wouldn’t have covered Mount Everest with 29,000 feet do you realize there was no such things as mountains in those days, they hadn’t pushed up

V: there’s no evidence that mountains are that young and there’s you know to try claim that there was no mountains requires quite a energetic geology that would essentially release so much energy that would broil pretty much everyone on earth

R: yeah well that’s kind of what happened in the beginning the mountains pushed up like volcanoes do anyway…

V: those aren’t volcanoes

R; no they’re not but they are made of stone or rock I guess… I don’t know we’re talking about things I don’t know much about well um do you want to use that name Vel or do you want to use your real first name

It’s notable that a creationist admits not to know much about the earth.  As I’ve written before, willful ignorance is behind most creationist claims.  Creationists, be they Christians, Muslims, etc, all need to either ignore reality or intentionally lie about it.  This causes them problems because their claims about creationism are contradictory, since they don’t even start out at the same place.  We have contradictory claims about how creation happened by theists, and we have many different claims about how the Noahic flood “really” happened; all dependent on an ignorance of basic science.  The folks over at Talk Origins have a good article on the failures of creationists with the bible flood.

After this we get into the morality discussion starting with my question to Ray about his god killing David’s son.  Here’s a bit about that:

“R: yes yeah he killed David son okay did God actually kill, is it David son? or yeah David son when he committed adultery with Bathsheba it didn’t bless him with the child he said the child’s gonna die there are repercussions to his actions but he lets solomon live which is wonderful (?)

V: would you be happy if someone killed one of your children and let the other one lives

R: no of course not I love all my kids

V: then why would you accept that from your God

R: oh because he’s the giver of life he’s a giver and the taker of life and he’s the one that blesses with health and and in life itself and a peace if he deems fit to take a loved one what can I do about it I just trust him I trust his integrity so let’s go back to the issue David had a son died and God took him and God says your child’s gonna die did they actually happen

V: did resurrection actually happen

R: no did David have a son that god killed

V: no no I did if that didn’t happen why should I think that the resurrection happened

R: oh no not talking about the resurrection what I’m trying to get you to say is that did God kill the son of David

V: yes that’s what the Bible says

R: yeah but it didn’t happen did it cuz you’re an atheist so you say it didn’t happen because God doesn’t exist so why are you upset about something it didn’t happen it’s like being upset about the fairy godmother turning Cinderella’s coach back into a pumpkin.”

V: (laughter) well let me ask you if let’s just say that it did happen

R: okay

V: and you said that you would have absolutely no problem with a god doing something you would be unhappy with the human doing correct

R: oh yeah I’d be I wouldn’t be the happiest man on earth of one of my children died but I know that God is the giver and the taker of life he created every bone every every drop of blood and my children he gave me the gift of children and if he deem fit that one of my children dies I can’t do anything about it but I can trust him I can trust him in it and say Lord you know what you’re doing you allowed this for some reason it may not be a perfect will but it should permissive will you’re permitted it and in that I rejoice I trust you because that’s what faith is about it’s trusting when often often things aren’t right

V: so you believe you have an objective morality from your religion correct

R: yeah absolutely

V: so if if it’s not moral for a human to do something why is it moral for your God to do it?”

If I were Ray’s kids, I’d be more than a little disturbed by this.  I’d do anything to save my kids or anyone’s kids and that includes standing against anything, god or not, that would try to kill them.  Heck, I’d do that for my cats.  Here, it seems that Ray’s best answer is that I shouldn’t care about some kid since it was long ago.  My morals don’t work like that.  Injustice and unfairness are forever.  He goes on to claim that since everyone is going to die, it isn’t a problem and that I should only be considered with my salvation.

We went back to creationism for a bit, and Ray deflected my request for evidence about which creationism is right.

“V: Christians are all they all have the one real truth but I what need to see is evidence that that is actually the case

R: well that’s it’s provable um now let me ask what’s that

V: how is it provable

R: we’ll come up to that in a few minutes

V: Laughter.”

And of course we didn’t.   That was fine with me since I knew at some point he would have to intentionally change the subject from something he didn’t like where it was going.

We discussed the Big Bang Theory a bit and unsurprisingly he intentionally misrepresented it.  That also wasn’t a fruitful path for him (get it? Fruit?).  So we ended up with the questions that Ray loves and are on more than few of his videos e.g. “Do you think you are a good person? Have you ever lied?”  Have you ever stolen anything? etc.

R: how do you think you’re a good think you’re a good person

V: I’ve heard you do this before yes I do think I’m a good person and I do not use your Bible or your interpretation to define what good is.

R: that’s what we often do that’s what I did before I was a Christian that’s what Adolf Hitler did I no doubt if I talk to Hitler he would say he was a good person because he had his own moral standard he cleaned up Germany got rid of brothels more than full employment got rid of the scum of the earth clean the German race and …

V: know that a lot of Christians think that he did a very good job you can see that on the news with the various Trumpies thinking having no problem with Nazism at all

R: you know what if I were you I wouldn’t cover the whole church with one blanket because Jesus spoke of true and false conversions he spoke of hypocrites he spoke he spoke of fake Christians and they’re the ones that often speak the loudest so don’t sweep with such a broad broom there are genuine Christians that believe the Bible love their enemies that do good they’re kind to other people they’re not nasty and if you find someone who is professing Christian and they they lack love you can say to yourself I don’t believe that person’s a genuine Christian, they are a Jew. “

Now, when he said this initially it caught me by surprise. The auto transcript picked it up as “ they are junius”. I had to rewind this several times and listen because I didn’t want to believe it but this does seem to be what he said.

We ended up at the questions about lies and stealing, oh and taking god’s name in vain later:

“R: let’s get back the question let’s get back to the question because we’re going down a rabbit hole um if you think you’re a good person how do you measure up to those Commandments

V: I don’t care about your Commandments

R: But how do you measure up to them

V: I don’t need to measure up to them

R: well let me ask you let me let me put you on the stand and see how you do how many lies do you think you’ve told in your life

V: I’ve told some and some were for a good reason just like the folks who did Anne Frank were lying to the Nazis”

This was again not working for Ray, and he had to claim I hate his god because I use his god’s name as a cuss word.  There was more about how I have to be hating his bogeyman.  There is more about morals, and I had a good time pointing out just how evil his god is.   That got me told that I was “misinterpreting” the bible, but no explanation on how this was the case.

Then Ray was revved up and his words got faster and faster as he tried to preach at me.  That preaching was interspersed with my laughter and refutations.  His attempts at sowing fear didn’t work and that did appear to confuse him, leading to more repetition and appeals to how much my parents love me.

After trying to tell me, a former Presbyterian/calvinist, that I didn’t understand predestination “correctly”, we ended up with Ray trying to tell me that this god of his was finally answering my prayers said 40 years ago.   That his god is timeless, yada, yada. Which again doesn’t match up with what the bible actually says.

“R: okay let me answer that God sometimes takes his time a day of the Lord is a thousand years to us and God is answering that prayer today and I’m trying to help you to restore your faith so you thank God that he chooses the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe. he speaks through donkeys he’s speaking through me today and telling you that he has no pleasure in your death and he’s answering your prayer and he wants to restore your faith. Okay”

And yes, I was very very hard pressed not to use the obvious joke here. 🙂

This whole thing had a great ending when Ray sent me a signed copy of his book “Banana Man”, and it had two Subway gift cards in it.  I guess that’s what happened to the other $7000 went.  You can see the saga of the subway cards here.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – A Pew Research Study “Half of Americans say Bible should influence U.S. laws, including 28% who favor it over the will of the people”

The Pew Research Center has a new study out about religion: “Half of Americans say Bible should influence U.S. laws, including 28% who favor it over the will of the people

“The U.S. Constitution does not mention the Bible, God, Jesus or Christianity, and the First Amendment clarifies that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.” Still, some scholars have argued that the Bible heavily influenced America’s founders.

Today, about half of Americans (49%) say the Bible should have at least “some” influence on U.S. laws, including nearly a quarter (23%) who say it should have “a great deal” of influence, according to a recent Pew Research Center survey. Among U.S. Christians, two-thirds (68%) want the Bible to influence U.S. laws at least some, and among white evangelical Protestants, this figure rises to about nine-in-ten (89%).”

As you see above, it’s pretty much what is expected.  Conservative Christians make false claims and then believe them. Continue reading “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – A Pew Research Study “Half of Americans say Bible should influence U.S. laws, including 28% who favor it over the will of the people””

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Some oldies for this time of year

So, Passover and Easter are here and just as silly as ever.

Here are some of my oldies but goodies on these subjects:

https://clubschadenfreude.com/2014/12/09/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-let-my-people-go-for-a-long-weekend-the-peculiar-story-of-the-exodus-part-1/  (you can find links to the other parts at the bottom of the post)

https://clubschadenfreude.com/2017/01/18/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-960000-tons-of-what/

https://clubschadenfreude.com/2016/03/25/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-what-has-become-the-annual-easter-post/

https://clubschadenfreude.com/2015/04/05/what-the-boss-likes-welcome-to-easter-syncretic-religion-at-its-best/  And thou shalt of eat of this guinea pig in rememberance of me

https://clubschadenfreude.com/2013/03/27/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-easter-the-supposed-events-and-implications/

 

 

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Theists, the jig is up

Complete Christian idiots
Complete Christian idiots

So, here we are with a pandemic.   I’m working from home now and so is my husband for at least the next 14 days. We aren’t in the risky populations but my folks are, my dad having COPD thanks to a lifetime of smoking and inhaling gods know what from being a farmer and my mom from just being older. My family has alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency aka genetic emphysema running through it. This means that anyone with two of the copies of the gene has lungs that react badly to many things, like my aunt who was a teacher for years and the chalk dust was what made her lungs crap. My uncle died of complications from breathing in silage dust and welding fumes.

Weirdly enough, this gene mutation is also thought to protect people from intestinal worms so it did have a limited good effect when worms were a much larger issue than they are now. The smoke from inside sources of heat back then must have been a problem though.

So, yes, stay home, avoid people and deal with it.

What is interesting now is that religions are having to deal with this in a way I don’t recall seeing before. We have some Christians realizing that their god has no power over a virus and believing science quite a lot now, despite their attempts to claim that it is wrong in relation to their religion. We also have other Christians ignoring reality and making things worse by their lies.

In both cases, we have that the claims that religions make shown to be completely false. No magic god, no magic healing, there is just reality and we have to deal with it. Trump declared a “day of prayer” and unsurprisingly, nothing at all happened.

It is very much past time to ditch magical thinking.

Here is a good article on the virus: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/covid-19-update-what-you-need-to-know/

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – quote mining by Christians

As is my habit, I look at various posts on WordPress with the words “atheist” and “atheism” to see what the chatter out there is like. Most post are by Christians who are very afraid of us atheists. To the point they choose to lie to support their fear. They try so hard to make believe that all atheists are nihilists to drive people into their imaginary god’s arms.

Fair warning, this post is long since the truth takes more time and space than lies.

In this episode, we have Christians, Presbyterians like I used to be, intentionally misrepresenting quotes from atheists. Let’s compare what they have with the real quote in context and with what Christianity says about humans.

“What do atheists think about the universe and our little race of advanced primates?

Hear them speak: “The human race is not special.”– Geoff Dawson, opinion piece, ABC news (Australia)”

This comes from this article here.  Now, what we can read from the actual article is:

We’re not special

As human beings, we need to remind ourselves that we are oxygen-breathing biped mammals.

In other words, we are animals. Evolutionary science demonstrates that we are continuous, not discontinuous, with other animal species

If one’s view of the world is based on science, we are not special, we were not placed here by a God to be the custodians of the Earth (and if we were, we have let the Almighty down big time!) and like all other species, we will have our place in the sun. The myth that we are somehow special and will continue to live forever as a dominant species is based on a deluded human-centric form of existential narcissism.”

It goes on to say how great it is that we are indeed humans, even if we aren’t “special”.

When we embrace the end, our lives are more vibrant

This means the adults learning to calm themselves in the face of their own inevitable mortality. The practice of mindfulness and the contemplation of one’s own death is one beneficial way to do this.

When we embrace the end, our lives are more vibrant

This means the adults learning to calm themselves in the face of their own inevitable mortality. The practice of mindfulness and the contemplation of one’s own death is one beneficial way to do this.”

Now, let’s look at what the bible says about humans.

“We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a menstrual rags.
We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.” – Isaiah 64. 

This is the same nonsense we see in the NT where we’re told that humans are dogs unless they worship the Christian god. The bible ends where this god murders all non-christians and then works with Satan to corrupt the Christians that are left (Revelation 19-21) That’s quite a god that the Christians have, not caring about humans at all unless they constantly praise it.

“The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.”

– Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden”

Unsurprisingly, this is taken out of context. This is what comes before: Continue reading “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – quote mining by Christians”

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – hearing voices

Occasionally, I come upon a post by a theist and then comment on it.  A couple of exchanges in, suddenly there are “rules” that are enforced when the Christian can’t find an answer or finds the line of debate less than flattering to his points.  Oh well, that doesn’t stop reality from existing.

The post I found was on hearing the Christian god.  This claim of directly interacting with the deity is pretty common in Christianity, where each Christian is sure that they were told directly what this god “really” means when it comes to the bible, etc.   Our author states “Without God personally speaking to us, we are not able to follow Him. And without following Him, we are left following a Book and the dictates of the religious community in which we live. The problem is: The Book points to Him, and in Him alone do we find eternal life.”

That does present a problem since Christians don’t agree on what this god is saying.

The claim that god speaks to someone is fraught with peril.  In addition to the wildly differing claims by Christians about what this god says to them, we also have that Christians claim that their god tells them to kill their children, or do other heinous acts, and they follow through.  There is no way to tell who is telling the truth, if any at all.

The author states that “If someone thinks they are hearing from God, there is no telling what they might do to act upon what they are hearing.”  This is true, we have no idea and this god does nothing to show any differences between hearing this god and hearing voices if you are schizophrenic.   He also states “The other difficulty we have (and this applies to believers) is knowing the difference between what God is saying and what we are saying.”  That is indeed the case: how can one tell since each Christian comes up with a different message from this god?

In that we have these problems, there is no reason to think that anyone is hearing from this god.

Our author also tries to claim that we simply must be hearing from this god because the mind isn’t the chemical lump in our skull, it has to be something else.  What this something else is seems to be a little beyond our author since he never explains it or explains how it is interacting with the brain and acting just like the brain is its source.  We also get the usual willful ignorance from a theist that the entire universe is supposed random, when that’s not what the evidence indicates.

It’s easy to simply say “no” when you want to claim that the brain isn’t the source of the mind, but a lot harder to defend that position in reality.  That’s why our author ends up making very silly claims that if we don’t believe in his magic, then we simply must believe that our minds are “illusions” and life is meaningless.  All he has are baseless claims intended to gin up fear.

And as one final attempt to gin up fear, we have the common Christian claim that atheism somehow is responsible for atrocities, when that is not the case.  But it sure does make a theist happy to spread such fear and try to convince people that only they are the salvation, they and the “word” of their god.  How dare we know that we don’t need them and their god to be humane humans.  Humans are good without their god or any other.

Father along down the comments we have other comments by our author and the site owner like “”One things I found when I became a Christian is how much Christian denominations actually agree, doctrinally. The examples you cite are not, to my knowledge, differences held among Christians. They seem to be opinions held by those that are not.”

This was in response to a post I made that our Christians edited to not show that Christian have doctrinal difference.  What are those differences you might ask?

what morals does this god want?

what is heaven/hell?

is there free will or predestination?

what is the purpose of prayer?

What/who really was Jesus Christ?

how is one baptized and what is the significance?

do saints exist/intercede?

what will get one saved?

what parts of the bible are to be taken literally, metaphorically or ignored? 

This isn’t even remotely the end to those points. Rather inconvenient when an atheists shows that a Christian is either ignorant or is making false claims intentionally, isn’t it?

I was told that Christian are to look to the life and behavior of Jesus as captured in the Gospels and not religious doctrines.  However, again, we have problems with what JC does in the gospels and in Revelation, something that many Christians don’t like to admit to at all.

Those posts showing where JC calls people a dog, says that people should hate and abandon families and kills a lot of people in revelations are also being held in moderation.

“what would Jesus do” ends up being quite a lot of different things and that is evidently embarrassing.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – another “clever” Christian

Another “clever” Christian with their lists of questions.  They never acknowledge the answers and just run away. Oh well, it’s an easy post to show how little so many Christians think.

  1. Why is there something rather than nothing?

We don’t completely know yet. Still no evidence for this god or any gods.

  1. Is there any evidence that suggests the universe is eternal?

We don’t know what came before the BBT.  There are some hypotheses.  Again, we don’t know yet, and still no evidence for a god.

  1. If not, why do Atheists hold onto the idea and say you have debunked the Kalam Cosmological Argument?

Because we have.   The cosmological argument fails because it depends on an a priori assumption that can’t be shown to exist.  The laws of physics have as much chance of being an eternal cause as a god, and probably more hance since Christians and theist can’t agree on a god.

  1. If so, why do the vast majority of scientists reject this idea?

They don’t.

  1. Why is the universe so fine-tuned?

It isn’t.  When 99.999…% of the universe is deadly to humans, there’s nothing “fine” about it.  If you want to claim a god did this, what an incompetent god.

  1. If your answer is the multiverse, why is there no evidence for that theory?

I don’t and we don’t have any evidence *yet*.    Poor god of the gaps argument.

  1. Is it possible that there is no natural explanation for the origin of life?

Evidence please.  But sure, anyone of a billion gods can be responsible.  Show that it was your version of the Chrsitain god.

  1. Where does consciousness come from?

We’re not sure yet.   Seems to be from the brain since injury to the brain or an imbalance of brain chemicals changes it.

  1. Do you lack a belief that God exists or would you say that God does not exist?

The gods defined by humans don’t exist.  There is no evidence for them.  Could there be some vague thing?  Maybe, but that’s not the god you worship is it?

  1. Do you lack a belief that Zeus/God exists, or do you believe that Zeus does/God not exist?

See above.

  1. If you just lack a belief that Zeus/God exists, why are you centuries behind the rest of the world who say that Zeus doesn’t exist?

See above.

  1. Do you act according to what you believe, or what you just lack a belief in?

Yes to both.

  1. What evidence is there that Atheism corresponds with reality?

Evidence that theists claims never happened and that other things entirely did.

  1. Is Atheism a worldview?

No.  You do need to get a dictionary, don’t you?

  1. If not, what is your worldview?

Pretty close to Epicureanism.

  1. What would convince you that God exists?

Evidence.  And hmmm, which god since theists can’t agree, not even among themselves?   How about Christians being able to do what the bible says, that every baptized believer in Christ as savior can do miracles like Christ (Mark 16, James 5)?

  1. Are you willing to follow the evidence, even if it leads to a different understanding of how the universe works?

Yep.

  1. If Jesus rose from the dead, would you become a Christian?

Nope, since Christianity is based on a disgusting god.  I might believe that the entity exists.

  1. If you wouldn’t become a Christian, why would you ever accept that he rose from the dead?

Evidence.

  1. Why do Atheists keep insisting faith is blind trust, when that’s not what Christians or the Bible say?

That’s what the bible says:  “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” – Hebrews 11  Why did you try to lie about that?

  1. Why do you want material evidence for an immaterial God?

Per Christians and the bible, this god has interacted with the physical on earth.  Where’s the evidence of this?

  1. Is there a purpose to life?

Yep, we each give our own life purpose.

  1. If there is, by what standard do you determine life has purpose?

My own.  No god needed, any of them.

  1. If not, what is the point of listening to this video?

Sorry didn’t see a video to watch.

  1. Where does morality come from?

Humans.  Theists can’t agree on what morals their god/s want.   They also change their morals as humans advance, insisting that they have a “new” interpretation of the same old nonsense.

  1. How do you determine what is right and what is wrong?

Based on myself and what makes civilization work.

  1. When a lion kills a cub from another pride because that’s what natural selection has raised it to do, is that morally acceptable?

For a lion it is.

  1. If evolution has put a sense of morality into us to help us survive, what makes our actions any better than any other animals actions?

They aren’t.  Again, theists don’t agree on morality so claims of an objective morality are just false claims.

  1. Is it morally acceptable for you kill a toddler because you can no longer financially support it?

Nope, but that is what makes our civilization work.

  1. Is it morally acceptable to kill a fetus in the womb because you couldn’t financially support it?

Yep, since a fetus isn’t a child.  Thanks for indicating you know the difference.

  1. Is it morally acceptable to kill a baby after it has been born?

Nope, unless it can’t live without pain and misery.   Anyone who wants to prolong pain is a monster.  Do you agree?

  1. How can you morally differentiate between a baby in the womb at 6 months and a baby born prematurely at 6 months?

You need a biology book too.  A fetus in the womb at six months has a chance thanks to modern medicine and would be treated exactly like the premature birth.  But nice try with the lies.

  1. Who was Jesus?

Perhaps a real person who was deluded.   However, this character is not the son of God, the one you claim to worship.  They aren’t the same being.  “Close enough” only counts for horseshoes and hand grenades.

  1. Why did his disciples die saying that he rose from the dead?

Because they wanted it to be true, however there isn’t much evidence for the apostles at all and we only have unknown authors writing decades after the supposed events, which we have no evidence for.  Why did the members of Heaven’s Gate say that they would be taken up by aliens and cut their genitalia off?

  1. Why does the Bible keep lining up with archaeology?

It doesn’t, but nice try with a lie.   None of the essential events of the bible have ever been supported by archaeological evidence.  No flood, no exodus, no sudden change in language, no fabulous palaces and temples, no battles of hundreds of thousands, no major earthquake/day darkening/dead wandering around Jerusalem on one certain day.

  1. Why do the three bloodiest regimes in History, (Mao’s China, Nazi Germany, and Stalin’s Russia) come from Atheistic ideas?

They don’t.   Hitler wrote voluminously about how he is following god’s will in persecuting the Jews in Mein Kampf.  Mao was acting like a megalomaniac as was Stalin.  That was the cause of their blood regimes.  Genocide isn’t an atheist idea, but we can sure see it is a theist one from the bible.