Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Hey, Sessions trotted out Romans 13

I hadn’t realized that AG Sessions cited Romans 13 for his excuses for his and Trump’s actions.

“Persons who violate the law of our nation are subject to prosecution. I would cite you to the Apostle Paul and his clear and wise command in Romans 13 to obey the laws of the government because God has ordained them for the purpose of order.”

of course, this would mean that this god is responsible for Nazis and Confederates and despots all over.  And hmmm, where was this verse and calls for obedience when Obama and Clinton were president?  And those TrueChristians who try to avoid paying taxes?  Hmmmm…

Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God.  2 Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.  3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval;  4 for it is God’s servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain! It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer.  5 Therefore one must be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience.  6 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, busy with this very thing.  7 Pay to all what is due them—taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

I’m curious on what my Christian followers have to say.

 

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Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – two questions answered

In my last post, I wrote about abortion rights. I haven’t heard anything from any abortion opponents yet to answer my questions. However, I did note that the pastor I addressed has two questions for health choice advocates to answer on his blog. Unsuprisingly, Pastor Dave does not allow comments on his website. You can contact him through his contact page (complete with false claims about commenters being “aren’t so much interested in engaging thoughtfully” and bearing of false witness as commenters are not “genuine”, offered as excuses) , but it’s random if he bothers answering or not. I find it telling that I have no problem in allowing comments and that a pastor does.

The pastor has these two questions.

  1. When does human life begin?
  2. Who has the right to take life?

Dave believes that life begins at conception. Why? Because the bible tells him so. He also claims that “science and ethics point us”. Ethics has nothing to say about when life begins. And science doesn’t support his claim either. The concept of when life begins is still debated. Why he chooses to make unsupported claims is beyond me, other than to spread misinformation for his own benefit.

A fertilized egg cannot live on its own without support. Indeed, myriads of fertilized eggs never make it to the implantation stage and are simply expelled from the body. Myriads are aborted later by the failure to be viable. If it is killing when a fertilized egg is expelled, then this god is responsible for a very very large number of killing “children” as the anti-abortion folks want to claim per their own argument.

Dave, along with a lot of people against healthcare choice, quote the following: ““The scientific answer is that the embryo is a human being from the time of fertilization because of its human chromosomal constitution. The zygote is the beginning of a developing human.” Keith L. Moore, T.V.N. Persaud, Mark G. Torchia, Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology, 8th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2013. p.327 (happily Amazon’s look before you buy has this excerpt)

What they don’t quote is the information around this, demonstrating the usual intent to spread misinformation: “There are differences of opinion on when an embryo becomes a human being because opinions are often affected by religious or political views. The scientific answer is that the embryo is a human being from the time of fertilization because of its human chromosomal constitution. The zygote is the beginning of a developing human. Some people think that the embryo becomes human only after birth”.

Now, this is not true. There is no consensus that the embryo is a human being; in the literature it is called a human embryo, not a human being. It is considered a potential human being even by anti-abortion activists in their propaganda, not a human being. (see here) Acorns aren’t any more oak trees than a human embryo is a human being.

This god doesn’t even consider them human beings, considering its commands here:

“When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine.” – the punishment for killing a human being is not applied.

If the age is from one month to five years, the equivalent for a male is five shekels of silver, and for a female the equivalent is three shekels of silver.” – there is no value assigned for a child less than one month old, and it is not considered

15 Enroll the Levites by ancestral houses and by clans. You shall enroll every male from a month old and upward.” Males less than one month old are not considered human beings to be counted in a census and females aren’t to be counted at all.

Now, Dave goes on to excuse this god because of the classic “might equals right” argument. It’s okay for this god to murder children for the sins of their parents. It’s fine to kill women who are with child during this god’s genocides.  So much for Dave’s claim of “The Christian Gospel points to a God who unconditionally loves us and through Jesus’ death on the Crosstakes away all our guilt and covers our shame.”  Quite a few conditions given by this god, and it certainly doesn’t love those who don’t obey it.

And it’s mighty fine to harm a woman and her fetus if the husband is jealous. No evidence, just jealous.

“The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 12 Speak to the Israelites and say to them: If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, 13 if a man has had intercourse with her but it is hidden from her husband, so that she is undetected though she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her since she was not caught in the act; 14 if a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of his wife who has defiled herself; or if a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of his wife, though she has not defiled herself; 15 then the man shall bring his wife to the priest. And he shall bring the offering required for her, one-tenth of an ephah of barley flour. He shall pour no oil on it and put no frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of remembrance, bringing iniquity to remembrance.

16 Then the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord; 17 the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 The priest shall set the woman before the Lord, dishevel the woman’s hair, and place in her hands the grain offering of remembrance, which is the grain offering of jealousy. In his own hand the priest shall have the water of bitterness that brings the curse. 19 Then the priest shall make her take an oath, saying, “If no man has lain with you, if you have not turned aside to uncleanness while under your husband’s authority, be immune to this water of bitterness that brings the curse. 20 But if you have gone astray while under your husband’s authority, if you have defiled yourself and some man other than your husband has had intercourse with you,” 21 —let the priest make the woman take the oath of the curse and say to the woman—“the Lord make you an execration and an oath among your people, when the Lord makes your uterus drop, your womb discharge; 22 now may this water that brings the curse enter your bowels and make your womb discharge, your uterus drop!” And the woman shall say, “Amen. Amen.”

23 Then the priest shall put these curses in writing, and wash them off into the water of bitterness. 24 He shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings the curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter her and cause bitter pain. 25 The priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy out of the woman’s hand, and shall elevate the grain offering before the Lord and bring it to the altar; 26 and the priest shall take a handful of the grain offering, as its memorial portion, and turn it into smoke on the altar, and afterward shall make the woman drink the water. 27 When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall discharge, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become an execration among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be immune and be able to conceive children.

29 This is the law in cases of jealousy, when a wife, while under her husband’s authority, goes astray and defiles herself, 30 or when a spirit of jealousy comes on a man and he is jealous of his wife; then he shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall apply this entire law to her. 31 The man shall be free from iniquity, but the woman shall bear her iniquity.

This god has the right to kill anyone and anything because Dave believe it created them and creators have the unquestionable right of destruction. I suspect he might disagree with this when it comes to the church he preaches from, a hospital, the roads through his local town, etc. It becomes no more than special pleading on Dave’s part. It is only hypocrisy when these self-declared “pro-lifers” insist how bad abortion is. Might equals right is all they care about. Funny how even this god doesn’t believe that the fetus is made in its image, or it doesn’t care. Yep, Dave, you don’t get much more vulnerable than a fetus. Now, why does your god destroy so many if we are to believe your bible? So much for your plea for “struggling emotively”.

Considering the vileness of what you claim to believe, Dave, I know that I am far more committed to improving medical care for women and indeed everyone than you are, when you have made false claims about how allowing abortions somehow interferes with medical progress.

I am far more committed to protecting women from the bullying, abuse, sexual violence than you are since you have chosen to lie to women about abortion.

I am far more committed to standing up for asylum seekers who come to escape abuse, torture, rape and FGM from people who concur with the vile laws in your bible that you claim your god came up with.   Your god repeatedly approves of the murder of women, the murder of women who are raped and who didn’t scream lough “enough”, and forcing women to marry their rapists. It approves of enslaving people if the father doesn’t want to abandon his enslaved wife and children. We also hear little to nothing about parents who after they have had children, and who have murdered them on the pyre of their religion when they don’t get them treated for curable diseases. We only hear demands for “religious freedom” in those cases.

Such are the crocodile tears of a TrueChristian(tm).

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – a bit of nostalgia and still no effects from prayers by professionals

Way back in September 2014, I offered a challenge to a professional Christian and self-proclaimed prophet, Bill Keller.  This was about the challenge he offered to a Muslim leader regarding that old testament contest in 1 Kings 18. Now during that interaction, I was promised that I would be prayed for.  He of course ran away from the challenge.

Surprise, nothing happened despite claims of “Know that I am praying for you, be richly blessed.”  Now, why would such a prayer fail?  It seems that this god doesn’t like this fellow, this fellow isn’t praying correctly, this god likes me as I am, or this god doesn’t exist.

A few months shy of four years….hmmm.  No surprise that Keller supports Trump, a liar, an adulterer, a cheat, and who finds that nazis are “fine people”.  He gives the same excuses that all of his fellow evangelicals give. And he has no problem ignoring his bible when it actually gives some not horrible advice

“The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold,
    but the Lord tests the heart.
An evildoer listens to wicked lips;
    and a liar gives heed to a mischievous tongue.
Those who mock the poor insult their Maker;
    those who are glad at calamity will not go unpunished.
Grandchildren are the crown of the aged,
    and the glory of children is their parents.
Fine speech is not becoming to a fool;
    still less is false speech to a ruler.

In that Bill’s prophecies have failed, is he up for a stoning?

“Because I shared what God showed me (“Under President Kerry, God’s definition of marriage will no longer exist, legal steps will be taken to insure our nation will ALWAYS be in the business of murdering innocent babies, we will continue to see God taken out of every aspect of the daily life of this nation, and Christians will come under greater persecution than we ever thought possible. God is going to give the people exactly what they ask for and because of our gross wickedness, we will see more natural disasters, more attacks on U.S. soil by those who want to destroy us, and the nation will endure great economic hardships as God unleashes His judgment on our nation.”), I have been accused of working for John Kerry, of causing people not to vote, and for being the reason if President Bush is not re-elected. First, if you read ALL that I wrote Monday, I clearly outlined the spiritual abyss this nation will fall into under a Kerry administration. *As I do every year, I will mobilize a massive prayer effort that will be well over 2 million people this year to pray for men and women after God’s heart to be elected and encourage people to get out and vote for those people who will help to bring our nation back to Biblical principles. Lastly, it will be God who determines who the next President is, not Bill Keller.

I am also very well aware that Pat Robertson has predicted President Bush will win in a landslide. The fact is, on November 9th, either Pat Robertson or Bill Keller will be wrong. I have clearly stated in the past that the penalty for a false prophet is to be stoned to death. I support that standard and am willing, I wonder if Pat is. Like most who say they hear from God and have been wrong, Pat has always found an excuse why he was wrong and just keeps on going. The fact is, God is NEVER WRONG. One of us is a false prophet! I will make NO EXCUSES.”

Nah, he just hoped that no one would remember. He’s still lying and still begging for money, like all wannabee televangelists.  Congrats, Bill, you are just like Joel Osteen with your failure.

 

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – We ate that apple or did we?

by J.M. Green http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2013/08/prayer-failed-for-jesus.html

Recently, I found a post on another blog about what Christians could learn from atheists.   This was on a blog for self-described millennial Christians.   It was an article written by John Garay, who has his own blog.

It was an interesting post, with some honest compliments but most the usual claims of how “rebellious” atheists were and how sinful that is. It also underlined just how much Christians are completely sure that those “other” Christians are entirely wrong (whether to follow those pesky commandments is a sticking point for Christians). Each generation is sure that they are the ones who have it right, entirely unaware that their attitude is nothing new. We went through this in the 80’s where evangelicals thought they had the right answer, and now they are seen as the staid and ignorant old guard by these new Christians. Of course, the new Christians have the same issues as the old, especially when it comes to their shiny new magic decoder rings that they are sure tell them what their god “really” meant.

We have this as what the author has as lessons learned from atheists;

  1. It’s good to “do good,” simply because it’s the right thing to do.
  2. Love is best experienced when you love someone simply because of who they are, not for what they believe in.
  3. The opinions of others are never a “good enough” reason to cause you to doubt what you believe. (which is nice but misses the point that atheist often don’t have opinions, but facts which Christians do not).

Which are all pretty good things.

But…

Then we have this, as the author’s response to someone who thinks atheists are “evil”.

“She stopped sobbing for a quick second to ask a question: “Weren’t you taught that atheists are evil?” I chuckled to myself and responded, “What I’ve been taught is that evil and rebellion are part of our human nature. Thanks to Adam and Eve we inherited this mess. In fact, it was for this very reason that Jesus came to earth… He came to redeem a fallen humanity… We just all express evil differently depending where we are at in life.”

Hmmm, nothing new there at all, the author agreeing that us atheists are “evil” and “rebellious”.   One would think that the author never actually chatting with an atheist, despite his claims of having atheists as friends and family members.

Now, since the bible says that all humanity knows what good and evil are, from that fruit episode, I know I’m not evil. It’s interesting that Christians would continue to claim this if they know the same good and evil too. So, for that apple, we have had a multitude claims of what evil and it changes every generation or so.  The most bizarre thing is, that this god never wanted us to know good and evil at all.  We were to be obedient, nothing more.  If we know good and evil, well, then we might use that knowledge to question.  And happily, some of us do.

I had commented on this blog and pointed out that despite what some Christians thought, it was no compliment to be compared to their god and to be told that their god was “in” us too. That, unsurprisingly, was not accepted well. I was also told that I didn’t understand Christianity or the correctly.

I was asked that if I wanted to discuss this blog entry, some of the comment participants would be willing but via email. I’m going to guess that my non-believer readers might already know where this is going. Despite the acceptance by myself and my one discussion partner (I had two, and they may identify themselves if they want) that we would answer any questions that the other may have, that ended when I asked:

““what makes you think your god is real and all others aren’t?  Anything you find the strongest answer? “

And this was the response:

“It’s okay for us to continue to disagree with each other, but attacking the belief is not an act of friendship and hard to build a relationship from.”

Now, this was after I answered this person’s question to me: ““Question: What is the biggest factor in your belief that God isn’t real?”

What the different is between them asking me what amounts to the same question seems to be no more than they have to actually make a statement and have it open for criticism.

This is not a new answer from someone who was sure that they could discuss something with an atheist. It could be very nearly verbatim from one of a hundred Christians I’ve debated over the years. And it entirely misses the point of what the blog post’s author said in his third point.

This ended with claims that I somehow hate this god, hate Christians, that I only want to “win”, false claims that I wasn’t willing “even attempt to understand one another”, that I don’t correctly interpret the bible that they claim other Christians don’t interpret correct and can’t tell me why I should accept their version, etc. I’ve toyed with the idea of writing down the usual steps of how a discussion goes with a believer since they almost always hit the same marks when they realize that they may have to think about and defend their claims.

So, as history has shown, we get new versions of the supposed objective truth multiple times a generation, and each sect is sure that those others are wrong, in most, if not all religions.

Now, Christians, tell us: what makes you think your god is real and all others aren’t?  Anything you find the strongest answer?  And why should we accept your version when you won’t accept each others? Why do you find these questions and the existence of atheists so terribly threatening?

You wonder why people are leaving Christianity.  Behavior like this certainly can’t help.

Addedum- Mr. Eli has replied in comments.  Consider if you will, reader, if you didn’t know about religion.  Would you accept such responses if you were considering joining Christianity?

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – reblogging a Christian bit of nonsense: The meaning of meaninglessness

This post came to my attention when Pastor Mike liked this post of mine.  It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense that a Christian would like it, but I often encounter Christians who seem a little confused in what they profess to believe and what they actually believe.

Nothing like watching a TrueChristian(tm) do his best to bear false witness against others and have no clue about cause and effect. It’s a shame that Pastor Mike does claim to have all of the answers and claim that only his version of Christianity is the right one, with not one more shred of evidence than those who he decries. I am glad that he does admit that atheists wield logical arguments against his claims.  Alas, Pastor Mike falsely believes that atheists are all nihilists and in his ignorance, he trips himself up.

No wonder that Christianity is losing members when a Christian leader demonstrates that intentional dishonesty and ignorance are what he depends on.  You can see how Pastor Mike failed earlier on this blog.

Update – 4/13  One also has to wonder about Pastor Mike when he likes my post on his blog which is the following: “well, Pastor Mike, glad that a pastor agrees with my post here: https://clubschadenfreude.com/2018/02/18/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-what-makes-christianity-christianity/  Always curious that a Christian would agree with what I’ve said, I wonder what your flock would say.  As for your claims “You have kicked God out of schools, so kids are turning to insanity to imbue their lives with some semblance of the significance you robbed out of life.”  For what is supposedly an omnipotent being, this poor god can be stopped by a human, per Pastor Mike.  Not much of a god, is it?  It’s nice to see you make such claims, when this god can’t even protect its own churches and keep its priests and pastors from abusing children, embezzling, etc right where it supposedly can get in where it wants.  As usual, you are so desperate to bear false witness against others, you dont’ think your claims through.”    What kind of fractured thinking goes with this? I do wonder if Pastor Mike thinks he is being sarcastic.

Mustard Seed Budget

imagesActually, snorting condoms makes perfect sense. As does chewing Tide pods. Along with cutting.

After all, if there is no meaning to life, then why not engage in something meaningless? If an attempt to find value shows your stupidity, then all we have left is getting attention through stupid means.

Atheists will bristle at my mockery, but their insistence that morality is an evolved feature — along humanity’s unusual drive for significance — is absurd. There is no evolutionary sense of morality or man’s quest for importance. Deprive man of God, and you get teens snorting condoms.

images-1And please, my dear atheist friends, don’t tell the gunman plowing down schoolchildren that he is inherently or obviously wrong. What is obvious is that there are no morals, no values, nothing. That is all atheism has to offer: nothing. There is no noble sense to humanity, no purpose, no beauty, no humanity…

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Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Exodus redux

yes, there are indeed cruxifix chocolate molds and plague finger puppets. Yay, dead people! Yeesh.

Lest anyone think that I have only issues with Christianity, here is the link to the first part of my Exodus series.  I look at the strange story of the exodus in the bible.

Passover is based on the idea of putting blood on doorways to avoid being killed by the angel of a supposedly omnipotent and omniscient being.  It needs blood to figure this out.  It is also based on the idea that it is moral and okay for this god to murder people who had no choice in the matter, over the actions of their god-king, which was forced into the issue by this god.

Here are also a couple of good blog articles by my friend John:

https://thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com/2016/06/26/kadesh-barnea-gaza-the-exodus/

https://thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com/2014/01/02/how-we-know-the-pentateurch-is-historical-fiction-11/

and one of my favorite posts of my own, just how many quail showed up: https://clubschadenfreude.com/2017/01/18/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-960000-tons-of-what/

 

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – FFRF’s Blog “Easter fools, April Fools and Jesus’ pundits”

FFRF has done a good blog on the nonsense of Easter.  I’m looking forward to the live broadcast of Jesus Christ Superstar on NBC tomorrow night.  I love the music and it is a good story.  It also is a great demonstration that the easter stories in the bible contradict each other quite a bit.  Gesthemane, one of the more touching parts of the bible, is no where to be found in the Gospel of John, and well, those thieves are missing from the rock opera and do various contradictory things in the stories.

I’m waiting for people to also freak out that JC is being played by a black man, John Legend.  Judas is also being portrayed as a black man, Brandon Victor Dixon (Judas has the best songs).  Herod is Alice Cooper, the rock star who some Christians were quite sure was going to end the world, or something, back in the 70’s.  Mr. Cooper also golfs and wears wonderfully tacky plaid pants while doing that.

There will also be a lot of people in church tomorrow, who have no problem with following a man who lies, cheats, brags about sexual assault, is a repeat adulterer, etc.  And these are the people who say that atheists treat this god as a “vending machine” whenwe point out that this god should answer prayers. They repeatedly ask for forgiveness for this idiot and themselves for giving him a “mulligan”.

Postscript – (4/2/18) – the live performance of Jesus Christ Superstar was a bit of a mess.

Pros – great singers. Alice Cooper makes a very good Herod.

Cons – too many freakin’ commercials.  Often it was like listening to a 45 record on 33 1/3, and Pontius Pilate looked like he’d more at home on the Hunger Games.   The Glen Carter version from 2000 is much better.