Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – “Why can’t animals talk?”

of course this isn’t history but a sadistic story

Rabbi Gellman, who used to be part of the God Squad with a catholic priest, still has a syndicated column. I occasionally address them there. This time it’s a column that in my paper is titled “why don’t animals talk”.

Now many cultures have myths on why this is. They are just-so stories like Kipling wrote. Raven can’t talk anymore because he stole fire for mankind and carried it in his beak.

The answer we have from the rabbi to ostensibly a third-grade girl is that it is somehow to teach humans “not just about right and wrong but also about wrong and right and even more right.”   (Italics mine) What the hell? This certainly drives a spike into the objective claims of morality from theists. If this god allows something that it kinda isn’t good with, but there is a better idea, then why not require the truly “good” idea? The rabbi wants to have it that eating meat is okay with his god but its better if we could eat without causing some animal to “suffer and die”.

In this column, Gellman mentions Genesis 1:29 and Genesis 9:3. They are, with a little added for context (the specific verses are italicized):

26 Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”27 So God created humankind[e] in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” 29 God said, “See, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. 31 God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.” Genesis 1

Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And when the Lord smelled the pleasing odor, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of humankind, for the inclination of the human heart is evil from youth; nor will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done.

22 As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night,  shall not cease.”

1God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you shall rest on every animal of the earth, and on every bird of the air, on everything that creeps on the ground, and on all the fish of the sea; into your hand they are delivered. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; and just as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. 4 Only, you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. For your own lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning: from every animal I will require it and from human beings, each one for the blood of another, I will require a reckoning for human life.” – Genesis 8-9

So, we have a god that has no problem with killing and burning animals for its own pleasure, so Gellman’s claim that this god is all about veganism isn’t true in the slightest. This god is so all about meat is that he rejects Cain’s offering of fruits and vegetables, and approves of Abel’s offering, also making it questionable why Abel was bothering with killing animals at all since they weren’t eating them, and why this god had to kill and skin animals to make clothes for the newly naked Adam and Eve. The rabbi claims that his god gives the allowance to Noah to eat meat “grudgingly”. That is no where in the verses.

The rabbi then gives a rather horrible little story (midrash) about how Noah wanted a hamburger. He has the snake being truthful and saying one has to make a hamburger (and seemingly implying that it was being evil, which begs the question, why was this snake on the ark?). Noah, for no reason other than personal want, kills and eats his friend the cow. This is from a person who chats regularly with this god. The end of the story is that animals don’t talk to humans because that Noah ate one of them and they are upset.

So are animals upset with this god too since it demands their death?

Which of the cows did Noah eat and how does this work with the other utterly silly story in the bible where it can’t make up its mind on how many animals Noah took with him on the ark?

If we can eat “Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; and just as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything” then why the claims we can’t eat some of these things in Exodus and Leviticus? This god is so forgetful, losing things, forgetting what he’s said before.

This a prime example of theists making up nonsense thoughtlessly and making things ever worse for their bible’s claims.

“Back of all these superstitions you will find some self-interest. I do not say that this is true in every case, but I do say that if priests had not been fond of mutton, lambs never would have been sacrificed to God. Nothing was ever carried to the temple that the priest could not use, and it always so happened that God wanted what his agents liked. Now, I will not say that all priests have been priests “for revenue only,” but I must say that the history of the world tends to show that the sacerdotal class prefer revenue without religion to religion without revenue.” – Robert Ingersoll (lots more excellent quotes here for those who don’t think atheists used to be as feistyt as they are now)

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – oh darn, did someone say that out loud?

Recently, I’ve noted some silly theist posts here and responded to them since the theists, Christians, want an echo chamber and don’t allow non-Christians like them to post.

One has caught my eye, where Haden (whom you’ve seen referenced to before having the blog amusingly named “Help Me Believe Strengthen the believer. Answer the critic”  (and be so unsure of your “answers” that you don’t allow anyone to address them)) cites another Christian’s post from the blog “Stephen J. BedardChristian Apologetics, Leadership, Disabilities, History and More”

This post is about if you can or can’t reason someone into believing in Christianity’s claims.  The base claim is  “Really? How do they know? Have they interviewed every single Christian and discovered that not one came to faith through apologetic arguments? It is so easy to make assertions without any evidence to back it up. Christians get annoyed when atheists make unfounded assertions, we should be careful not to do the same.”

However, the bible doesn’t agree with this at all.  It says that the only way you can believe in if you were picked by this god to be able to believe.

Then Mr. Bedard tries this:

“What some people may mean by this is that it is not arguments that bring a person to salvation, it is the Holy Spirit. Of course that is true. But that would also mean that you cannot preach a person into the kingdom or you cannot evangelize a person into the kingdom but most people do not say that. Apologists understand that their arguments are only part of the picture and that it is ultimately the Holy Spirit who brings the person to Christ.”

So, he seems to believe in the part of the bible where Paul says no one can accept this god unless they were chosen to, e.g. no free will.  This would make apologetics entirely useless, and they aren’t just a “part of a picture”, they don’t work at all. It becomes no more than preaching to the choir.

Now, I tried to post these points on Bedard’s blog and of course, they don’t appear.  However, what *does* appear is quite an example of a Christian speaking (typing) out loud what Christians generally don’t want to admit.

You may or may not be familiar with a Christian who goes by “Evolution is a Hoax”.  He is one of those Christians who lies, etc when it comes to atheists.  However, here we get to see what he really wants on what he seems to think, with good reason, a friendly website.

“we should compel people to come in. And our weapons of our warfare are to pull down arguments. We should and sow seed even on stony ground and if possible remove the stones from the field. Its a simple solution.”

Nothing like Christians wanting to convert by the sword.  Ol’ Hoax also goes on a rant here and as usual, a Christian can’t go very long without attacking another Christian.   Hoax also admits, like the Jesuits, that they need to get to the kids early because they won’t question lies. “Most success happens when you are in a Sunday school room and you have a clean slate with few arguments and they will listen to the gospel and feel the love his sacrifice conveys.”

What a failure of a god when it can only be believed by children who are lied to.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – a Christian’s excuse for supporting an anti-christ aka Trump

Haden, over at Helpmebelieve.com, has done a great job at showing just what some Christians will do to gain power. Haden, unsurprisingly, is a Trumpie.  Nothing new is here.  Pretty much every Trumpie will make the same excuses.

As some of you might know, the editor of Christianity Today, a magazine started by the Billy Graham family of pastors, wrote an article on why Christians shouldn’t support Donald J. Trump.   Haden is quite sure that it is wrong for Galli to have pointed out why Christians shouldn’t support a liar, a cheat, a self-proclaimed sexual abusers, someone who has said he doesn’t need forgiveness by Haden’s god, and who idolizes murderous dictators that kill their own people, including Christians.

“It is no secret that evangelicals are split on Trump. Many are his strongest allies. Many view him as an abomination. Many voted for him simply because they did not like their other options. “

Vanishingly few evangelical Christians find Trump an abomination. Most voted for him because they are indeed bigots and wannabee theocrats that will do anything for power. We know that they want judges appointed to give them a chance to legislate their religion into law.

It’s something when Haden claims this “Although, naturally a Christian evangelical publication is going to lean right and conservative.” This does seem to be a tendency but what is this reason when their supposed savior was a communist who supported the sick and the poor? It seems that again, Christianity is made up by the believer, not the other way around.

We do know Haden’s stance, anything for power and anyone who doesn’t agree with him is not a true Christian. He isn’t objective but he does want to claim that *no one* is, as an excuse for himself. Haden says he will likely vote for Trump in 2020. “I won’t vote for anyone else”, and he admits that. Someone who won’t vote for anyone else has declared that Trump is indeed is “favorite guy in the world.” His bias *is* in the open.

As much as Haden doesn’t like facts, there are some that show that his intended choice, above anyone else, is indeed someone that Christians wouldn’t vote for.

Haden tries to argue that Trump, by trying to force a foreign power to conduct a baseless investigation of an American citizen, isn’t “really” an abuse of power. What is Haden’s excuse? That Galli hadn’t mentioned all of the evidence in the editorial. Of course, one can read the report from the House to see all of the sworn testimony and evidence. We don’t have the actual transcripts since they have been hidden by Trump in a separate confidential server.  Funny how Trump isn’t willing to be under oath and is terrified if any of his closest people are under oath. An oath to be honest before Haden’s god. Hmmmm.  We do have the evidence, Haden, and you again try to ignore that fact.

The editorial, and Haden’s (plus other evangelicals) actions do paint themselves as ignoring their bible and their god.  The editorial in CT has “That he should be removed, we believe, is not a matter of partisan loyalties but loyalty to the Creator of the Ten Commandments.” Haden is offended by that last statement.

Hmmm, how dare anyone expect Haden to be loyal aka faithful to his god and to what the bible claims? Well, what does the bible actually say about a man like Donald J. Trump and his known actions? Is salvation conditioned on support of Trump or not?

Is salvation connected to actions at all? Well, that’s a problem for Christians since, again, they disagree if it is or not. There is the “always saved” bunch, the “actions will happen because of faith” bunch, the “faith alone” bunch, and “any good act is rewarded” bunch.

But if we look at the bible itself, it seems rather clear on at least what this god doesn’t want in a leader. But in the bible we do have that problem that Paul claims that *any* leader is put in place by this god, so obedience to a leader is indeed required for salvation, despite what Haden says “So, does Galli really believe that if one votes, or supports Trump, that one is not loyal to God? If pressed, surely he would not make salvation conditioned on support, or non-support, of a president. Even if we tone down the language to that of obedience, surely this is an overreach.”

Ummm, yep, Haden, your bible does literally say this: Romans 13 if you are confused (or trying to ignore it).

Haden’s also horrified that anyone dares not call him the only True Christian, and that other Christians might find this to be the case. Haden of course does this repeatedly. And oh no, someone dares to speak prophetically about how Christians should act? You mean like Pat Robertson, Robert Jeffress and others that Haden follows? Such the pot calling the other Christian kettle black.

Indeed, Haden, who will take you seriously after you support Trump? He offers these excuses:

  • “The truth of the Gospel message is not dependent upon the character of the Gospel messenger.”

In that no Christian can come up with a “truth” here that they all agree on is the problems Christians like Haden have.

  • “The effectiveness of the Gospel message is not dependent upon the character of the Gospel messenger.”

That Christians can’t agree makes a completely ineffective message since the message changes with each Christian.

  • “If a person will only accept the Gospel message on the condition that I publicly denounce Trump, that person does not understand the message.”

If a person notes that you ignore your bible, that person understands that you cherry pick what you want to accept.

  • “A vote for Trump is not a justification of all of his actions and words. I repeat: a vote for Trump is not a justification of all of his actions and words.”

This from a Christian who wants you to think he doesn’t completely support Trump but who will vote for NO ONE ELSE. It is a justification of all of his actions and words.

That people vote for Trump means that they *have* justified his actions and words to be more important than following what the Bible says. Haden desperately wants abortion to be made criminal. He will accept anything as long as he thinks that will happen. He is indeed saying that as long as he gets what he wants “the bent and broken character of our nation’s leader doesn’t really matter in the end”. Haden literally says this “if we don’t vote for the conservative candidate that has the best chance at winning, we are more likely to get a president who will make our efforts toward ending abortion that much more difficult.” The end justifies the means, a suitable amoral idea that goes well with the “might equals right” claims of conservative Christianity.

There are no false dichotomies as Haden would claim. His words out his intentions. Unlike Haden’s claim “We can support the candidate that is most pro-life “friendly” while at the same time calling-out his moral failures.” , these people never consider or call out Trump’s moral failures. They invent excuses for them, just like Haden is doing.

For people like Haden, abortion is just a “think of the children” lie that they use to try to hide their desire for a theocracy. That they consistently elect people who cut help to families and children aka “innocent human beings made in the image of God” and who have no problem with over a thousand children lost in Trump’s immigration nightmare, and who don’t want children to have the best chance in life, shows that they are not “pro-life” at all. Not caring for children after they leave the womb shows that all they want is control.

For someone who wants to toss about the term “genocide”, Haden doesn’t want that term being used for his god when the bible has it commanding genocide committed on other people. If genocide is wrong, then it is always wrong. If not, then Haden’s god is as subjective as Haden is. Haden assumes he knows what his god is concerned with “At the risk of going too far, let me ask, what is God more concerned with? The way other people view you, or the genocide of millions of innocent lives? The question is really: Are you willing to support a president with a less than perfect moral life for the sake of ending abortion, or not?”

Hmmm, a god that commands genocide? This god has done nothing about abortion. The bible only mentions the killing of children as being approved of or being done directly by this god. If we go with the bible, abortion is at best no concern of this god, and at worst, approved of by this god. Are you willing to support a god that is like this?  A god that wants you to go for a “lesser of two evils”, which is not a biblical idea? Are you willing to ignore the parts of the bible that say not to follow a liar, a cheat, an adulterer, etc?

“Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.” – 2 John 1

As we end up seeing, Haden is all about winning and power. “To them I say: show me the pro-life candidate with a perfect moral life that actually has a chance at winning.” And then we see this “Whatever option you take, far be it from me to question your “loyalty” to God as Galli has done.” Except, you know, when Haden insists that some Christians really aren’t Christians, like Mormons, JWs, etc.

Haden insists that some candidate needs to be supported, but we have the bible saying to not bother with the actions of this world. It would only be someone who is quite sure that this world is it when he is so concerned about it. That an evangelical has no one to vote for shouldn’t be an issue.

It seems we have a schism between conservative Christians and Trumpie Christians. Haden is a Trumpie Christian, close to a conservative Christian, but another step away in being sure that he and he alone can decide what this god wants and ignoring even more of his bible as is convenient. Even the OT, the bastion of conservative Christianity, doesn’t go far enough for him. Losing this “base” isn’t a bad thing at all. For all of the claims of “irrelevantness” about who Billy would have voted for, Haden found it necessary to mention.

The hypocrisy of conservative Christians and Trumpie Christians is fun to watch. They are after each other with knives, and all about who knows their invisible friend best.  I do feel sorry for the Christians who are good people in spite of the religion.   They often get tarred with the same brush.

Just in case Christians are a bit forgetful about what their god says about following someone just for power and excusing what he does when convenient:

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.” Matthew 7

14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?” – 2 Corinthians 6

“You shall not spread a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man to be a malicious witness. You shall not fall in with the many to do evil, nor shall you bear witness in a lawsuit, siding with the many, so as to pervert justice, nor shall you be partial to a poor man in his lawsuit.” – Exodus 23

“And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” 21 And he said, “All these I have kept from my youth.” 22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”” -Luke 18

“Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death19 is the man who deceives his neighbor
and says, “I am only joking!””- Proverbs 26

“But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21

But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) By no means! For then how could God judge the world? But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.” – Romans 3

Some will chide me for using the bible to point out the failures of Christians and Christianity, mostly Christians. But how else to show such hypocrisy and thoughtlessness?  No one needs the bible or Christianity or Christians to be a humane person.  If you aren’t even going to try, you get to be held responsible.

Not So Polite Dinner Conservation – Those magi, and yay, a child is destined to be killed

On the road, over two thousand years ago

Balthasar: hey guys, I was doing up that kid’s astrology chart.

Caspar: what kid’s?

Melchior: You know, that one who is going to be king of the Jews one day, you gave the myrrh.

Caspar: Oh yeah. What about him?

Balthasas: I think we got the wrong one. Damnit, I knew I should have read those Jewish myths more closely. This one is dead in a little over 30 years, tortured to death by the Romans and Jews.   That Jupiter in retrograde is a bitch.

Melchoir: But I did a chart and shows that this kid would be celebrated for millenia.

Caspar: So this god made a kid, had it killed for what this god decreed to happen in the Jewish myths and then people celebrated that? But not the Jews?

Balthasar: (tossing his scroll onto the camp fire) This stuff is such crap. When we get home, I’m just sticking with observation and experimentation.

/satire

On our road trip to see family this weekend, my husband noted that it was really weird to have a big winter celebration in honor of the birth of a child that was decreed to die in a few decades because of its father needing a death to make itself happy for something it did intentionally thousands of years before.

Of course, the story about the magi is yet another time when the bible shows its failure in making any sense. The magi go into a house, not a stable or manger. Per the story, the kid was around two years old, since Herod supposedly had a massacre of children of that age (no evidence for this either). The eastern orthodox churches have up to 12 magi (which makes me think of the scene in The Life of Brian when the roman soldiers are filing in and out of the hide out of the People’s Front of Judea) visiting which would just be funny.

 

And of course the actual scene with the magi:

Being happy about a birth that only leads to death and misery required by a god though the actions of its supposed archenemy for no reason is a greedy sadist’s act.

It’s a lot more coherent to celebrate the sun’s warmth, the turning of the seasons and the best things in life: food, drink and the people you love in your life.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – not so “clever” as a theist might think

A rather silly Christian had the below on their blog.  This is a Christian who is also sure that essential oils do magic and that zyto scanning machines work.  They work as well as the e-meter that Scientologists use to look at your alien ghosts that are attached to you aka not at all.  The FDA caught the company in lie after lie.

But let’s get to the what the Christian wants to claim.

“An atheist was seated next to a little girl on an airplane and he tirned to her and said, “Do you want to talk? Flights go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger.”

The little girl, who had just started to read a book, replied to the total stranger, “What would you like to talk about?”

Oh, I don’t know,” said the atheist. “How about why there is no God, or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death?” as he smiled smugly.

“OK” she said. Those could be interesting topics but let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow and a deer all eat the same stuff – grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns ou a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that is?”

The atheist, visibly surprised by the little girl’s intelligence, thinks about it and says, Hmmm, I have no idea.”

To which the little girl replies, “Do you really feel qualified to dicuss God, Heaven and Hell, or life after death, when you don’t know crap?”

And then she went back to reading her book.”

A certain type of Christian is very afraid of atheists, because they have discovered that atheists don’t need their god, or perhaps more importantly, them.   They end up with really poor “stories” like this to attack atheists.

Now, asking a little girl about god is rather silly and is an attempt to make an atheist look arrogant and not just a little bit stupid.

Then we have the need for scatological humor and the need to pretend that this little girl would know anything about poop from animals.  Now, little girls might know about dinosaurs so how about we go with that?  If we present it this way, it doesn’t sound as clever as the theist wants it to:   ““OK” she said. Those could be interesting topics but let me ask you a question first.  A Stegasaurus stenops, a Gryposaurus notabilis  and a Psittacosaurus mongoliensis are all part of the order Ornithischia, but how are they different?”  It’s is easier to see the attempt to drop nonsense into the discussion as a means of avoidance and no “crap” needed.

In any case, we have the classic theist attempt at an argument, which is nothing more than a logical fallacy, that one has to know about poop to know about religion.  Which, of course, rather inadvertently does make a point. 🙂

This is what some Christians need, a poor argument so they don’t have to discuss their religion with someone who doesn’t agree with them.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Christians say the darndest things

This is something I have to preserve for posterity.  A Christian told me this:

“Trying to cast a disagreement as a lie is symptomatic of primitive thinking. Look, there is no consensus among atheists that atheism is merely a lack of belief in a god. If atheism is merely a lack of belief in a god, are you admitting that pedophilia is atheistic since it too doesn’t involve a belief in god?”

So, my friends, do you agree atheism is a lack of belief in a god and only that?   have you seen any other definition for atheism offered by an atheist?

It’s so cute to see Christians have to try to cast aspersions so utterly ineptly.

Addendum (10/14/19): 

It’s even better to watch a conservative Christian intentionally lie when it comes to my comments and wondering just so “innocently” why I’m not answering posts: “Oh, and I noticed that many others have replied to you. Is there a reason you are ignoring them? Don’t you think that is kind of rude?” .  Well, he’s not allowing them out of moderation and his blog so helpfully show this:

The snipping tool is just so handy: michaels failure

it’s rather like Christians trying hiding fossils.  One might wonder if they’ve read their bible at all since lying isn’t looked upon favorably by their god.