Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – and how Christians worm into US government

This isn’t surprising at all, but should be broadcast to all. There is a rather slimy Christian group called HillFaith in Washington DC. It’s run by Mark Tapscott, a former aide, editor for the Washington Examiner, part of the Daily Caller, a notorious white surpremacist website (founded by Tucker Carlson no less) and a reporter for the Epoch Times, a Chinese-based conspiracy rag.

Boy, ain’t he a great one!

Unsurprisingly, he spreads conservative lies and promises if you come to his little talk, you’ll get Chik-fil-a! Nothing like being a walking, talking stereotype.

In his latest post on his website (no comments allowed) he is shilling the amazing Christian liar Frank Turek, who is a creationist and an utterly incompetent apologist.”

“Do you have enough faith to be an atheist? Now, you may be saying to yourself “wait a minute, atheists don’t have any faith, so that’s gotta be a mis-print or some other kind of mistake.”

And it’s true, atheism is popularly understood to be the opposite of faith.

Dr. Frank Turek explains why he still doesn’t have enough faith to be an atheist.

But the reality is that the more you learn about human beings, the universe in which we live, and how it all came to be, the more difficult it becomes to remain an atheist.

Is that a skeptical look on your face?

Then plan on joining the crowd at HillFaith’s “For Hill Aides Only Monday Club” every Monday at noon starting on July 19 for the next 12 weeks at 109 2nd Street NE, right behind the Supreme Court building. That’s the Liberty & Faith town house office suite with the 10 Commandments stone in the front yard.

Each Monday will feature a 25-40 minute video of Dr. Frank Turek of cross-examined.org addressing key aspects of the Faith vs Atheism debate, followed by a spirited discussion and Q&A led by HillFaith’s Mark Tapscott. Lunch is provided from Chik-fil-A.”



Now isn’t this sweet from Mark’s website? “

Is HillFaith partisan?

No, HillFaith is rigorously non-partisan, witnessing to and seeking to serve congressional aides and employees without regard to their employers’ partisan identification or personal leanings. Jesus is neither Democrat, nor Republican, and His life-changing Grace and Salvation are available to every person.”

ROFL Poor dears I guess they figure this doesn’t apply to them. “There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers” Proverbs

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – one more theocratic Christian cult in the US

From the Washington Post:

“The church is called Mercy Culture, and it is part of a growing Christian movement that is nondenominational, openly political and has become an engine of former president Donald Trump’s Republican Party. It includes some of the largest congregations in the nation, housed in the husks of old Baptist churches, former big-box stores and sprawling multimillion-dollar buildings with private security to direct traffic on Sundays. Its most successful leaders are considered apostles and prophets, including some with followings in the hundreds of thousands, publishing empires, TV shows, vast prayer networks, podcasts, spiritual academies, and branding in the form of T-shirts, bumper stickers and even flags. It is a world in which demons are real, miracles are real, and the ultimate mission is not just transforming individual lives but also turning civilization itself into their version of God’s Kingdom: one with two genders, no abortion, a free-market economy, Bible-based education, church-based social programs and laws such as the ones curtailing LGBTQ rights now moving through statehouses around the country.

This is the world of Trump’s spiritual adviser Paula White and many more lesser-known but influential religious leaders who prophesied that Trump would win the election and helped organize nationwide prayer rallies in the days before the Jan. 6 insurrection, speaking of an imminent “heavenly strike” and “a Christian populist uprising,” leading many who stormed the Capitol to believe they were taking back the country for God.”

Apologies if you’ve read WaPo articles and this is behind the pay wall for you. Let me know.

More hateful bigots aka theocrats on the rampage. This is why I stand against theist nonsense.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – when Christians quote mine and fail

Matilda

Unsurprisingly, a Christian has taken it to use a quote on this forth of July to attack atheists. Alas, the whole quote shows that Ulysses S. Grant is not on his side at all.

What the nitwits at Does God Exist claim“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon’s, but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, superstition, ambition, and ignorance on the other.”

As our society rejects God and the Bible, people desperately search out unproven and usually false claims from human leaders. In addition to destroying faith and stopping people from living as Christ would have them live, it also eats away at the very fabric of democracy. Superstition, ambition, and ignorance combine to destroy the faith that has sustained America for over 200 years.”  John N. Clayton © 2021

What Ulysses S. Grant actually said.

“I do not bring into this assemblage politics, certainly not partisan politics, but it is a fair subject for soldiers in their deliberations to consider what may be necessary to secure the prize for which they battled in a republic like ours. Where the citizen is sovereign and the official the servant, where no power is exercised except by the will of the people, it is important that the sovereign — the people — should possess intelligence.

The free school is the promoter of that intelligence which is to preserve us as a free nation. If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon’s, but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition, and ignorance on the other.

Now in this centennial year of our national existence, I believe it a good time to begin the work of strengthening the foundation of the house commenced by our patriotic forefathers one hundred years ago, at Concord and Lexington. Let us all labor to add all needful guarantees for the more perfect security of free thought, free speech, and free press, pure morals, unfettered religious sentiments, and of equal rights and privileges to all men, irrespective of nationality, color, or religion.

Encourage free schools, and resolve that not one dollar of money appropriated to their support, no matter how raised, shall be appropriated to the support of any sectarian (of, relating to, or characteristic of a sect (a religious denomination) ) school. Resolve that the State or Nation, or both combined, shall furnish to every child growing up in the land, the means of acquiring a good common-school education, unmixed with sectarian, pagan, or atheistic tenets. Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the private school supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and state forever separate. With these safeguards, I believe the battles which created the Army of the Tennessee will not have been fought in vain. – Ulysses S. Grant, former US President and Union General. Annual Reunion of the Army of the Tennessee in Des Moines, Iowa, on Sept. 29, 1875.

As often happens, Christians lie. Funny how their god says not to, even if they think they are lying *for* this god, Romans 3 and a whole bunch more bits from the bible about how one shouldn’t lie: What Does the Bible Say About Lying? (openbible.info)

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – SSDD

If you are looking for anything new, there’s not much here.   Just one more Christian making the same claims, and trying fear and ignorance again. I have Isaac’s panties in a bunch.   Isaac’s post to try to scare people into agreeing with him is very typical of a Christian who is desperate for external validation by others telling him he’s right.  He’s not, but let’s see how.

“In the beginning there was nothing. And then there was something.

This is the essence of what atheism teaches. This something coming from nothing is what they call “the Big Bang.” Of course, their god, Charles Darwin, has led them into sacred knowledge of how life came about. Life simply evolved from non life, of course!

Their main teachings: evolution, nothing to everything, because science says, and my all-time favorite, “the lack of evidence is evidence enough.”

Let’s begin with their idea of the beginning of the world. They say that in the beginning there was a tiny ball of matter, which miraculously just existed for no reason. Obviously no one created it. That’s silly.

This ball of matter, which existed for no reason, exploded in what we call the Big Bang, again for no reason. There’s absolutely nothing in the universe that caused that ball of matter to explode. That’s insane.

Enter the holy trinity of atheism: Charles Darwin, Richard Dawkins, and Steven Hawking. They push this idea that the substance that exploded from a ball of nothing evolved into something. This is how we get cats, dogs, birds, and more. Because nothing decided one day it wanted to exist.

Now that we are familiar with the religion of atheism, I am going to give you some heavy reasons why it is dangerous. But first, let me add a disclaimer. I love atheists. Yes! Even the hateful, bigoted, mocking atheists! I just find their beliefs to be… crazy. And a little ridiculous.”

Oh the ignorance. 

Atheism doesn’t teach “in the beginning there was nothing. And then there was something.”   It is a conclusion that there is no god or gods.  Now, the big bang theory says that it seems like there was nothing and then there was something, but even physicists aren’t quite sure how that occurred, other than it is possible for something to come from nothing and they have evidence for it. 

Charles Darwin is not a god and well, we’re atheists so we don’t believe in gods or consider humans gods.  Isaac must make strawmen to attack since he has nothing else.  We have evidence evolutionary theory works and it has grown more robust since Darwin proposed it as a hypothesis.  A theory, in a scientific context, is “A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world and universe that can be repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results. Where possible, theories are tested under controlled conditions in an experiment.[1][2] In circumstances not amenable to experimental testing, theories are evaluated through principles of abductive reasoning. Established scientific theories have withstood rigorous scrutiny and embody scientific knowledge”  – Wikipedia.

“This ball of matter, which existed for no reason, exploded in what we call the Big Bang, again for no reason. There’s absolutely nothing in the universe that caused that ball of matter to explode. That’s insane.

Enter the holy trinity of atheism: Charles Darwin, Richard Dawkins, and Steven Hawking. They push this idea that the substance that exploded from a ball of nothing evolved into something. This is how we get cats, dogs, birds, and more. Because nothing decided one day it wanted to exist.”

Isaac also demonstrates his ignorance on what the Big Bang Theory says.  It has nothing to do with a “ball of matter”.  The BBT is about a singularity which expanded, not about a ball of nothing, and not about a ball of matter, nor about any of these things being able to think.   Isaac then proceeds into the logical fallacy of an argument from personal ignorance. Creationists often find themselves attacking yet another strawman since if they attacked the actual theory, they’d have nothing. 
 
Danger #1: Morality

This is a big one. I’m not saying you can’t be moral you’re an atheist. I’m saying you have no justification for being moral.

Morality was created by God and placed in the heart of every human being. The Law of God, or the moral standard, was written on your heart. That’s how you know rape is wrong, for example.

However, you can suppress that morality and do your own thing. Theists don’t usually suppress their morality. They live by the standard set by God. If you’re an atheist, you can still be a good person by following the morals set on your heart. However, being a good person doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things.”

Isaac *is* saying that atheists aren’t moral, but he doesn’t want to be shown to be saying that since his claim is obviously wrong.  What follows is a common theist claim: the argument from morality.  Unfortunately for Isaac, Christians don’t agree on what morality their god wants. One can’t point a certain moral stance and say that it was from this god or any god.  Isaac’s claim that we know what this god wants in our “hearts” is baseless.  Not even Christians can show that, including Isaac.

“If you don’t believe in God, there’s no reason not to murder and rape. It’s not objectively wrong in that case. It’s only your opinion that it’s wrong. However, since God is real, your sense of justice is justifiable and your desire to be a good person is not just an explosion of random chemicals in your brain.”

There are plenty of reasons not to murder and rape, etc.  It doesn’t have to be objectively wrong.  It is my opinion, and most people’s opinion, that it *is* wrong, and civilization supports that and enforces that idea.  No god or Isaac needed. Paraphrasing Penn Teller, I have no want to murder or rape just because I could. 

Still no evidence that Isaac’s god exists.   

“Danger #2: Beyond Life

What if you’re wrong? If I’m wrong, I end up 6 feet under, dead. I just stop existing. If you’re wrong, there’s an eternity of condemnation and judgment waiting for you. An eternity of fire and brimstone.

Not to mention, if you’re wrong you could be leading others to hell with you. Including your friends, family, kids, etc.”

This is just Pascal’s Wager and poor Isaac’s sadistic fantasies.  Pascal’s Wager fails since there is no evidence any god’s exist and there is a cost to believing in one.  Isaac does try ever so hard here to use fear to convince people he is right.  He isn’t.

It’s always fun to also see a Christian who is sure his god is dumb enough to accept someone who is believing “just in case”. 

Danger #3: Unnecessary hatred

This isn’t necessarily every atheist, but it’s enough. They spread hate. They seek to tear down theists and make us look stupid. This leads other atheists down the same path and before you know it, Christians are being hated, bullied, and harassed. This is how the persecution of the first century church began. Unnecessary hatred of Christians. This is why Nero ended up lighting his festivals with Christians, burning in cages.

Persecution still happens today. Check out the Middle East.”

Isaac has to pretend he is persecuted like so many Christians.  He also claims that some hate is unnecessary and here he is trying to claim that some people deserve hell and to die if they don’t agree with him. 

We don’t need any help making many theists look ignorant and bigoted.  They do just fine themselves.  

There is indeed real persecution of various groups in the world.  Christians in the US aren’t one of them.  And funny how this god does nothing at all to help the Christians who really are persecuted.  It’s rather like it doesn’t exist at all. 

“The Solution

The Gospel. You and I, and every human that ever existed, has sinned and broken God’s law. We are unworthy of grace. Because God is just, he must pass the appropriate sentence. And since his standard is perfection, we have been sentenced to death, which is eternal separation from God. Eternal separation from all things good.

But God is rich in mercy and quick to forgive those who fall on the mercy of Him. Because all have sinned, it is by grace that any of us go to heaven. Without grace, we’d all be damned to hell. That’s why Jesus came into the world, as a living sacrifice. And since he is the only one who has never sinned, his death and suffering paid for your transgressions. It paid for mine too. Like a judge in court, God has sentenced you. Jesus paid the penalty, or the fine. You were speeding and got a ticket, Jesus paid the ticket. Now you can go free.

“What must you do to be saved? “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.”

1. Believe in your heart that Jesus was risen from the dead.

2. Confess him as Lord over your life. Confess your sins.

3. Repent. Turn from your sin. A Christian cannot live a lifestyle of sin.

4. Receive the free gift of eternal life. The Holy Spirit will come on you, giving you faith and convicting you of sin.””

The problem for Isaac is which version of Christianity and the “gospel”.  Isaac doesn’t agree with his fellow Christians, so which version is the right “path”?   Christians don’t agree on what is a sin, so again, how does Isaac know his version is the only right one? 

Per the bible, this god is not just, or merciful or quick to forgive.  Genesis 3 shows this right off.   Could have had JC show up right then.  Didn’t. 

Isaac, like most Christians, is selling a cure to a sickness that doesn’t exist.  No “sin”, no “salvation” needed.  Isaac also doesn’t realize that one can’t just decide to believe in something with no evidence.   

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Yah didn’t think Ray Comfort could get any worse, did you?

So here we have Ray Comfort with his new writing “ugly baby blindness syndrome.” (gee it is part of a book) He’s sure those newborns and toddlers are evil. You don’t have to go out to “living waters” if you want so see ol’ Ray in his idiocy. I made a nice set of screen shots since I wouldn’t be surprised if this suddenly disappears. Shows you that any “pro-life” claims are false.

These people will stop at nothing to convince people they are sick so they can shill their “cure.

https://clubschadenfreude.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/ugly-baby-blindness-syndrome.pdf

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Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Christians sure like to pretend they are talking to atheists

or saying that the nonsense in Revelation will be happening “real soon now”

As above, Christians sure like to pretend they are talking to atheists lately, and of course, don’t allow comments on these ever so wonderful arguments they think they have. Wonder why? 😀

So, here we have Nick Watt, with his talk to an atheist.

And here is my response. Yeah, I’m bored so lots of posts.

So, here I am, an atheist.   Let’ me respond to your claims.

It’s always nice to see a Christian trying to poison the well right off.  I am interested in hearing your opinion, but I will not let baseless and false claims stand without addressing them.  If you consider that “arguing” then yep, you have nothing and only want a submissive audience.

I am need respectful of science and have reason to trust it.  I see no evidence of you respecting science.  You use the same failed arguments as those who are ignorant of it.   We can observe love, hate, jealousy etc and that is part of the scientific method.  We can also look at brain scans when people are experiencing such emotions and see the brain light up as we would expect.  Little can be technically proven except for mathematics, but we certainly can have lots of evidence to support our conclusions. 

Christians do love to pay word games since they have no evidence for their god.  They can’t prove it exists at all.  Since we know a good bit about how the brain works, nope, there is no reason to agree with the false claim that “there are elements of life and existence beyond the purview of science”.  There is no evidence of the supernatural, which is what you are desperate to show exists. 

Like so many Christians, you want to claim that if someone doesn’t agree with you, they are “dishonest”.  Unfortunately, you can’t show this at all.  Only science can discover truth so far, and religion and philosophy are baseless opinions.  And nope, the burden of showing your claims to be true is still on you.  You make the absurd claim, you get to show it is true.  I’m sure you feel the same about the claims of other theists you disagree with. 

People should indeed follow the evidence where it leads.  Theists do not since they have the presupposition that some god simply must exist.  Again, you still hve the burden of proof for your baseless claims.  I do not since doubt is the neutral stance.   And you have no evidence for them.

You claim that the universe is not pitilessly indifferent.   Show it.

The universe did seem to begin.  No evidence for any magical being starting it and most, if not all, religions make the same claim as you do.  Show your god is the creator. 

We also have no evidence for “fine-tuning”, since we  have no idea how far the parameters can vary to get the same thing.  All you have is being a puddle thinking how great it is that “something” made a hole in the ground “just right for it”.   We fit the universe, the universe does not fit us.  Your argument from personal ignorance is just more logical fallacy, that sine you don’t understand basic science, then your myth must be true. 

Reality shows no evidence for any god, much less your personal version of the Christian god.  The beginning of the book of Genesis makes vague claims that each Christain claims means something different.  Then we have two contradictory creation stories, and a god that fails to keep out satan or intentionally lets satan in, not warning its ignorant children.  And no evidence of this either “15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in[i] him all things hold together.” 

Lots of theists claim that they think their personal beliefs make better sense of reality.  They are yet to show this to be the case. 

Christians also love to claim that we’ll have to die to be sure.  That’s not what your bible says.  I should be able to see every baptized believer in Christ as personal savior being able to do what their bible claims in Mark 16, John 14 and James 5.  Not a single one of you can.

You may be “captive to the word of God”, but again, every theist claims this, claims that cosmology, teology, etc agree with them, and personal belief doesn’t show that any gods exist.  There is no evidence at all that you’ve tried to “undo” the evidence for your god’s existence at all.  I’ve undone it with no problem at all.   

Then you offer Pascal’s Wager.  This assumes you have the right version of some god, and assumes you lose nothing.  If wrong, you lose time and resources and could risk pissing off the right god.  Christians don’t think very hard about their supposed great argument.

You do offer the wager to scare people and, like most religions, Chrsitianity depends on fear and ignorance.  Your sadistic fantasies about eternal torture for anyone who disagrees with you are childish. 

I also don’t have faith as you do, though Christians are desperate to pretend I do.  I can show quite easily your version of your god doesn’t exist.  None of the events it has supposedly caused can be shown to have happened.  Your god has quite a few details, and that being is no where to be found.  Chrsitians have an entire industry of apologetics to excuse their impotent god.

This is why Christians often try the “make my god vaguer” route to try to get away from the ignorant and primitive god of the bible.  It becomes a “ground of being” in Tillich’s apologetics. 

You then try an appeal to authority to try to pretend that if someone is smart and believes in your god, then there must be a god.  Hmmm, so since there are smart people who are Muslims, Zoroastrians, Hindus, then all of those gods must exist too, per your own argument.

Lee Strobel’s argument is the typical false claims of a theist and his personal ignorance is no reason to believe him.  We have evidence that indeed something can come from nothing, and again, no evidence a god is needed.  We are continuing to research how abiogenesis works and again, evidence it can and still no evidence for some god.  The universe is not random, and the laws of physics work quite nicely in ordering it with no god.  Chaos doesn’t provide information but a system that has energy in it does.  The rest, consciousness, etc are just more god of the gaps arguments, “we don’t’ understand it yet so GodDidIt.” 

I know quite a bit about Elvis.  He didn’t appear after he was dead either. 

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – more fear and ignorance

And more lies from a  Christian contradicted.  As usual, this is from John Clayton over at “Does God Exist Today?”   he’s too afraid to allow comments.   

“We have frequently pointed out that a massive percentage of the pain and death people experience is directly related to their choices in life. If you don’t believe in God, what do you use for support when you hit the usual frustrations in life? My brother Jim bought into my parent’s atheistic beliefs. For much of his life, he lived as an atheist.”

John, and the mouse in his pocket, thinks that only his god is suitable for supporting through life’s frustrations.  He seems to also need to image that all non-christians turn ot the bottle.  Happily we don’t, and there are plenty of supports for us, family, friends, psychotherapy, etc. 

“When my youngest brother grew frustrated with the everyday struggles of life, alcohol became his tool for coping. That caused him to be unable to help others or find meaningful companionship. When he struggled with his normal sexual drives, he did not believe that marriage was the only way those feelings could be satisfied. My brother’s marriage failed because of his alcohol use, and it also seriously affected his relationship with his two sons.”

A pity he didn’t find his family of any help, since John tried to lie to him.  Brother was ill, not needing some imaginary god.

“My brother Jim was fired from his first teaching job because his alcohol use affected how he dealt with his students. One of his sons and I pleaded with him to realize what alcohol was doing to him, and gradually he began to move away from his addiction. He eventually got involved in Alcoholics Anonymous, started studying the Bible, and carried on extensive conversations with me about the existence of God.”

Alcohol addition is a disease, not a moral failing.  No god helps anyone, only humans do. 

“I finally convinced my brother Jim to go with me and a group of 50 Christians as we toured the Grand Canyon, Bryce, Zion, and the Canyonlands. In addition to showing evidence that the Bible accurately describes Earth’s history as revealed in these places, we all engaged in singing hymns, praying for one another, and studying God’s Word. At the end of the trip, my brother admitted that he could not be an atheist anymore and that he saw the validity of Christianity.”

John chooses to lie more to his brother.  Alas, the Grand Canyon shows that the noah flood to be impossible since a massive flood never sets down discrete layers each sorted from coarse to fine within itself. 

“What do people in our culture do to relieve the pains that come in life? The use of drugs, including alcohol, has skyrocketed in my lifetime. Developing a relationship with God and working with those of like faith to establish a realistic approach to failure and frustration is not on the radar for much of our culture.”

John inadvertently admits that his god does nothing at all if use of drugs and alcohol has supposed “skyrocketed”.  Christians can’t quite decide if they want to pretend they are persecuted and losing people or if they want to pretend they are the majority. 

“As people reject God, ridiculing the Bible,
 and questioning its relevance to the struggles of life, the problems they experience have grown. The ultimate result of this is a massive increase in health issues related to drug use and an enormous rise in legal problems, including prison terms. More than half of the prisoners studying our correspondence courses are in prison because they abused drugs.”

Alas, the bible has no relevance to modern humans, only those who want to pretend some magical being agrees with them. Nope, the problems that non-christians haven’t grown.  John is just upset since Christianity is indeed losing members and churches are emptying.  Nothing in links shows that there is any correlation.  John tries to lie again.  And funny how many Christians are in prison.  Hardly any atheists at all.  Amazing how this god fails constantly, eh?

“Unfortunately, the use of alcohol and the destructive nature of my brother’s early atheistic beliefs had consequences on his relationships and health. He had marginal relationships with family, had few friends, and never found the kind of joy that Christians have when they follow God’s Word. In addition, his health had been compromised by his use of alcohol. On May 28, he died from all the damage alcohol had done in the past. Living the Christian way of life is essential to give the hope of eternal life and to give us the very best things that this life can bring. My brother Jim is a case history that demonstrates that fact in vivid, realistic terms.

— John N. Clayton © 2021”

Now, John finds he must try to scare people into his religion, as usual.  A religion that only has fear and ignorance to get people to believe isn’t much of one. Christians die all of the time.  It’s a pity they wasted their life on playing pretend.  John’s brother is dead.  That’s all. 

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – The conversation continues…

Happily, a Christian has chosen to reply to my responses to the Christian claims from the earlier blog post.   It is a classic since it contains every excuse that Christians usually offer and goes out of its way to ignore the hard questions.

1. “There’s a common misconception that the answering of prayers must always be noticeable, knowable, visible etc. …”

This set of excuses is nothing new for a Christian. They have invented excuses why their god doesn’t answer prayers and ignore their bible since it is inconvenient.  The bible says that this god will always answer prayers with what is asked for and answer quickly.  There is nothing that says that the “answer is no.”  Trying to claim that prayers are only answers if they agree with this god’s will shows that there is no free will and that praying is worthless.

Alan also invents this god that allows horrible things to happen to people and others to “teach” them.  I am happy to say that I don’t want anyone hurt to teach me anything at all.  There’s also the problem that the bible says that our fates are already sealed and teaching does nothing at all for this (Romans 9, Matthew 13).  I do have to wonder why this god doesn’t answer the prayers of the children that priests and pastors rape.  Is that to “teach” them?  Hmm, maybe that’s the excuse priests give too.  “It must be god’s will since he didn’t stop me; I’m a teacher!”

2.“Well, we can look to the Bible and Church history. The scripture is not sufficient on its own (sola scriptura), but requires an authoritative teacher that is guided by God. …”

It is a Catholic thing to pretend that other things are needed in addition to the bible. It is a Protestant thing to pretend that only the bible is needed. So, which is right?  Neither can be demonstrated as true.  Alan and the RCC want to pretend that they have the only right interpretation, just like the hundreds of other sects.   The RCC also didn’t convene the various councils, the Byzantine Empire’s government did.  Every sect claims to be the original or closest to it.  Still no evidence any of these sects are right, if any at all.

No Christian can show that they are even a Christian per how the bible says you can tell.  And there is no problem with declaring that there is no “ultimate truth”.  There is no logical reason to think that there is.  Just beause someone can imagine one, or at least the vague concept of “perfect” or “greatest”, doesn’t mean it exists (that’s why the ontological argument for god fails too).

3.“I understand how it can seem that way from the outside, but to suggest that nobody has ever heard a message from God requires some kind of omniscience…”

No, it doesn’t require some omniscience.  We have evidence that none of the essential events in the bible have happened and entirely different things did happen on any date that believers may want to postulate for those magical events.  There is no reason to think that some god talks to people through their mind or through a hairdryer.  Alan’s argument also places his god into a bit of a bind since it claims it is the only one and we can’t, per Alan, think that is the case.  Gods could be speaking to people all of the time.  I’m also sure that Alan would insist that we can know if someone talked to god since people who harm and murder do this all of the time “God told me to…”

4.“Good quip at the beginning about this person being the best God has to offer, but also not really relevant. …”

That we have such poor apologists like Alan, it does become a joke if they are the best this god has to offer.   Alan doesn’t want the message judged by the messenger, but since the only evidence given is the messenger’s baseless claim, then we have no choice.  This god does a horrible job of conveying some truth since Christians can’t agree on what it is and they again, can’t show that they are Christians.

No evidence that this god cares about anything, or exists.  The church offers help only if they can proselytize.  Humans do the work, not some god.  And indeed, as per Alan says, this is supposedly an “omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent Deity”.  In the myths, it provides food and water with a thought.  Why does it need humans now?  As for the “body of Christ” being active all around the world, that’s not quite true since Alan is sure that Christians who don’t agree with him are part of that body, those ol’ sola scripturists.

5.“All Christians agree in the existence of Hell. Yes, I’m being picky here. “ No, they don’t all agree on the existence of hell or what it is. And yes, Alan is being “picky” here aka trying pretend only his version is the right one. He tries to claim that Christians who don’t’ agree with him really aren’t Christians.  Again, so much for the “body of Christ” that Christians want to count in the billions, but also want to claim that many of those billions don’t’ really qualify.  The trinity is not required Christian belief, neither is that this Jesus was divine.  Alan seems to forget that there were many versions of Christianity and still are.  Christianity isn’t the one big happy family that the RCC leads that Alan would have us believe.  Even the gospels show vastly different Christianities.  Now, John does give one way to know a Christian: if they can do miracles as good or greater than JC and get their prayers answered (John 14).  Where are the Christians who can do that?

21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him.”  1 Peter 3.  Yeah, that isn’t agreed upon on how it is done either.

Like C.S. Lewis, Alan would prefer that Christians not talk about their hell or their disagreements.  People tend to see a god who kills kids, who damns people for no fault of their own, etc as less than “loving”.  As for the RCC doing “fine” we see rifts in that sect also, unable to determine if they want to join the 21st century or stay in the 13th.

6.“True, all Christians make the claim that the Holy Spirit is conveying truth. Yes, these claims can contradict. …”

There needs to be no right claim at all from theists; that is a false assumption.  They can easily all be wrong.  And, that none can do what the bible promises, this appears to be the way to bet.  Every Christian claim that they can deduce that theirs is the right version; they can’t.  Alan can’t.

 

7. “To be fair, the incorrect view is that of the Christian’s here. Regarding God isn’t a requirement to have a moral standard. …”

Christians do indeed try to claim that they have an objective moral standard that is from their god.  They do not.  They do not, and evidently cannot, agree on what morality their god wants.  They all have different Paul does indeed claim that the laws of this god written on their hearts and that silly claim cannot be shown true, and can be shown false in the sad cases of feral children.  Humans must be taught how to behave.  Many Christians have the arrogance and ignorance to try to claim that everyone is “copying” from them when it comes to morals.  That is not even remotely the case.  Paul is a rather nasty character who brags how humble he is and who tries to curse anyone who dares not agree with his version of Christianity.  He also was under the delusion that women aren’t equal to men.  I’m also quite happy to throw out the other NT writers since they advocate for morals like slaves shouldn’t try to gain their freedom and non-christians should be killed.

What humans have are a set of moral rules that allow civilization to work better and those have survived the evolution of humans from hunter gatherers to the farming and then technological cultures we have now.  No god needed, just trial and error.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – 7 responses to common Christian nonsense

I stole this list from Bruce Gerenscer, a wonderful atheist who used to be an evangelical pastor.  Do read his blog.  I added my usual short and sweet responses.  Nothing new, but if you want to cut and past them, you are more than welcome.  Most can be used for any type of theist.

  1. I’ll Pray for You

“Oh that’s nice.  So, what are you praying for? I do need to know so I can give you reports on how well you are doing. ”

If they own up to what they are praying for:  “Hmmm, okay, so how long should that take?   And if nothing happens, what can I put you down for as why:  your god doesn’t consider you a Christian and thus won’t answer your prayers as it promises; your god loves an honest atheist and is fine with me; your god doesn’t exist?”

  1. Have You Ever Heard the Gospel?

“Why yes, I used to be a Christian and I’ve read the bible in its entirety as a Christian and as not. Now, do tell me what your magic decoder ring is that tells you what is to be taken literally and what is to be claimed as metaphor or simply ignored since it is inconvenient and how do you know that it is better than the magic decoder ring that your fellow Christians have?”

3. God Laid You on My Heart

“God did what to you?   Oh, you’re claiming that your god told you to bother me.  Nah, that’s just you needing external validation and you think I’d be a prize to be won to make yourself feel better.”

  1. God is Trying to Get Your Attention

“What, with you?  You’re the best representative this god has? Such a shame.  How about if this god pays attention to those dying of hunger, who suffer from amputations, etc.  He can help them.  I don’t need it.  But it’s easier for you to lie and claim your god is interested in me rather than it doing something.  Oh and claiming that misery is this god’s actions to force people to worship it?  I sure as fuck won’t worship some vicious asshole like that.” 

  1. You’ll Go to Hell if You Don’t Accept Jesus

“Umm, which hell?  Christians don’t’ agree on what it is or even if it exists.  Your sadistic fantasies don’t bother me. Oh, it isn’t *your* fantasies, it’s just what this god needs?  Nice “I am only following orders” excuse, my dear.”

  1. I Know the Holy Spirit is Speaking to You

“Really?  What is it saying?  I do know that Christians all claim that the ol’ HS is speaking to them, but funny how it always give everyone a different message.”

  1. Do You Want Your Children or Grandchildren to Grow Up Without Knowing God and Having No Morals?

“Yup, I do, if they are your morals.  Sorry, dear, I don’t react well to attempts at engendering fear for someone’s imaginary friend.  Pity that Christians can’t agree on what morals their god wants.  You just get back to me when you can do what the bible promises every baptized believer in Christ as personal savior can do.

addendum:  always curious when Christians like e.g. “to feel attraction toward or take pleasure in; enjoy” my posts.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – the gauntlet has been thrown

A fellow blogger has taken it upon himself to respond to a couple of my posts.

My post: Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – that pesky free will – Club Schadenfreude

and his response: Response to ‘Not So Polite Dinner Conversation’ on the topic of free will – Christian Apologetics Ministry (wordpress.com)

and my post: Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – “A Case for Christmas” critique part 4 – Club Schadenfreude

and his response: A Response to ‘A Case for Christmas critique.’ – Christian Apologetics Ministry (wordpress.com)

Nothing new here, but it’s a way to spend some time if you are bored.  I, of course, have given comments.  We’ll see if they remain.