Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – turning on each other as usual and another Christian liar caught

An opinion piece in the Washington Times caught my eye.  “American’s new religion: Fake Christianity – stop calling yourself a christan if you don’t believe in Christ”  It’s by a rather sad little fellow, Everett Piper, PhD.  Now, what the phD is in is a mystery since I can’t find what it is and I’ve only found a vague reference that it might be from Michigan State University.  Now, who gets a doctorate and doesn’t want anyone to know what it is in, not even on their own website?  It seems that Piper might have a secret to keep.

Unsurprisingly, he is a conservative Christian and Trumpee, He was supposedly a never trumper, but surprise! he shucks his morals whenever convenient. 

But let’s see what Piper has to say now about Christianity and Chrisitans.  I do enjoy some Christian vs. Christian action. 

In the beginning he mentions the “Western Journal”, this is not a professional journal, it is simply a conservative Christian rag and website.  Its “reporting” is as trustworthy as the rag that Piper writes for, the Washington Times.  He also is all about the “biblical worldview” code for “only my version of Christanity, e.g. Christian nationalism, is right”.  Of course, every chrisitan thinks that they and they alone have a biblical worldview.  Alas, they can’t agree on what that is.

Every Christian calls the others fakes, or misinformed, or Satanists or pagans or heretics, etc.  This is nothing new.  In this article that Piper mentions, we have an intern deciding she can declare who is a Christian and who isn’t.  She is of course sure that her version of Christanity is the only true one.  This certainly underlines lack of education she has, which of course is at a Christian (Southern Baptist) for-profit university(aka diploma mill), Grand Canyon U which carefully doesn’t mention that on their TV ads. 

She mentions George Barna, the fellow who does some religious research and it’s great to see in black and white just how compromised he is when it comes to that.  When a researcher says “Christianity in this nation is rotting from the inside out” one can tell that objectivity is not on his mind. He even goes on ““The moralistic perspective is we’re here to be good people and to try to do good…The therapeutic aspect is everything is supposed to be geared to making me feel good about myself, ultimately to make me happy. Deism is the idea that God created the world but has no direct involvement in it. Basically, according to MTD, there is a distant God who just wants everyone to be nice, and the purpose of life is to be happy. American ‘Christians’ who have adopted this philosophy have… elevate personal definitions of right and wrong above any objective standard of Truth — like the Bible.”


hmm, and all Christians claim that this bible supports their “truth”, and is objective.  Now how does that work?   As we can see, each Christian, Piper, Barna and Bratton included, have elevated their personal definitions and claimed that their god is agreeing with them.

Each Christian is sure that theirs is the ““the faith that was once and for all entrusted to the saints” (Jude v. 3)”.  Piper also chooses to lie about what the founding fathers said about the US too.  Patrick Henry never said this “it cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!”  Gee, the tell is the term “religionists”.  It comes from a 1956 issues of The Virginian magazine.  Poor modern Christians putting their words in others mouths and then found out to be liars.  Thanks, Piper, for showing again how Christians ignore their bible when convenient.

Poor Piper, he wants to feel so special.  He finds he must lie again about how his version is the only right one, ever-so  “stable, this historical, this enduring, this deep, or this true.”   The poor “doctor” also has no idea what solipsism means.  Tsk.  It doesn’t mean “don’t worry be happy”.   
 
Of course, Piper and his minions are desperately afraid of anyone not like them.  They promptly lie about BLM and the LGBTQ community.  ““That’s why so many are siding with [neo-Marxist atheistic] groups like Black Lives Matter and the LBGT movement. They’ll listen to the loudest voice on either side. Enter the screaming woke mob; [those who] promote sin under the guise of ‘loving everyone.’”
Hmm, Christians all claim that they and their god love everyone.  I guess that’s a sin now.  Alas, Christians don’t’ agree on what sin consists of either.  So again we have humans insisting that they and they are god’s best buddy and he agrees with them only.

Unsurpsingly our christiansn cite Frank Turek, notorious bigot and conservative Christian failure.  Frank wants to pretend that Jesus agrees with him on everything.  Alas, per the bible itself, Jesus doesn’t.  It’s just another human trying to pretend he’s special.

Alas, no one Christian has a lock on Chrisitanity.  They all claim the same things and they all fail, even the ones who aren’t so nasty as those mentioned above. Since none can do what is promised for True Christians, Piper, Bratton et al are frauds per their own holy book. 

Thanks, guys, for showing that yet again, Christianity splinters, lies and fails. This is going to a heck of a dent in the numbers of Christians anywhere since they are sure each other aren’t really Christian. So much for a “Christian Nation” thanks to numbers or Christianity being a major religion.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – and how Christians worm into US government

This isn’t surprising at all, but should be broadcast to all. There is a rather slimy Christian group called HillFaith in Washington DC. It’s run by Mark Tapscott, a former aide, editor for the Washington Examiner, part of the Daily Caller, a notorious white surpremacist website (founded by Tucker Carlson no less) and a reporter for the Epoch Times, a Chinese-based conspiracy rag.

Boy, ain’t he a great one!

Unsurprisingly, he spreads conservative lies and promises if you come to his little talk, you’ll get Chik-fil-a! Nothing like being a walking, talking stereotype.

In his latest post on his website (no comments allowed) he is shilling the amazing Christian liar Frank Turek, who is a creationist and an utterly incompetent apologist.”

“Do you have enough faith to be an atheist? Now, you may be saying to yourself “wait a minute, atheists don’t have any faith, so that’s gotta be a mis-print or some other kind of mistake.”

And it’s true, atheism is popularly understood to be the opposite of faith.

Dr. Frank Turek explains why he still doesn’t have enough faith to be an atheist.

But the reality is that the more you learn about human beings, the universe in which we live, and how it all came to be, the more difficult it becomes to remain an atheist.

Is that a skeptical look on your face?

Then plan on joining the crowd at HillFaith’s “For Hill Aides Only Monday Club” every Monday at noon starting on July 19 for the next 12 weeks at 109 2nd Street NE, right behind the Supreme Court building. That’s the Liberty & Faith town house office suite with the 10 Commandments stone in the front yard.

Each Monday will feature a 25-40 minute video of Dr. Frank Turek of cross-examined.org addressing key aspects of the Faith vs Atheism debate, followed by a spirited discussion and Q&A led by HillFaith’s Mark Tapscott. Lunch is provided from Chik-fil-A.”



Now isn’t this sweet from Mark’s website? “

Is HillFaith partisan?

No, HillFaith is rigorously non-partisan, witnessing to and seeking to serve congressional aides and employees without regard to their employers’ partisan identification or personal leanings. Jesus is neither Democrat, nor Republican, and His life-changing Grace and Salvation are available to every person.”

ROFL Poor dears I guess they figure this doesn’t apply to them. “There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers” Proverbs

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – one more theocratic Christian cult in the US

From the Washington Post:

“The church is called Mercy Culture, and it is part of a growing Christian movement that is nondenominational, openly political and has become an engine of former president Donald Trump’s Republican Party. It includes some of the largest congregations in the nation, housed in the husks of old Baptist churches, former big-box stores and sprawling multimillion-dollar buildings with private security to direct traffic on Sundays. Its most successful leaders are considered apostles and prophets, including some with followings in the hundreds of thousands, publishing empires, TV shows, vast prayer networks, podcasts, spiritual academies, and branding in the form of T-shirts, bumper stickers and even flags. It is a world in which demons are real, miracles are real, and the ultimate mission is not just transforming individual lives but also turning civilization itself into their version of God’s Kingdom: one with two genders, no abortion, a free-market economy, Bible-based education, church-based social programs and laws such as the ones curtailing LGBTQ rights now moving through statehouses around the country.

This is the world of Trump’s spiritual adviser Paula White and many more lesser-known but influential religious leaders who prophesied that Trump would win the election and helped organize nationwide prayer rallies in the days before the Jan. 6 insurrection, speaking of an imminent “heavenly strike” and “a Christian populist uprising,” leading many who stormed the Capitol to believe they were taking back the country for God.”

Apologies if you’ve read WaPo articles and this is behind the pay wall for you. Let me know.

More hateful bigots aka theocrats on the rampage. This is why I stand against theist nonsense.

Not So Polite Conversation – and another set of lies from John Clayton

And yet one more lie from John Clayton.  This is the usual tactic of so many Christians, to try to scare people into believing.  This is what I hate about some Christians, that they want to cause harm in the world for their benefit. 

“It is interesting to read the responses of various groups to what we post on this site. Atheist reactions to our discussions about the futility of atheism have been especially interesting. We have occasionally made the statement that one of the problems atheists face is that they see no purpose in their existence. On the other hand, atheists have responded that their pleasures in life serve as a purpose.”

It’s even more interesting to know that John hasn’t printed a retraction from his lie from the blog post earlier, when he tried to pretend that Ulysses S. Grant wasn’t for the separation of church and state.  Alas, atheism is just no belief in god, and it is not futile or not.  It just is.   Now a worldview might be futile but atheists are all over the place on those.  

Our pleasure in life does serve a purpose, but John wants to pretend it can’t.  He needs to pretend so in order to make a job for his imaginary god. 
 

“Vladimir Putin recently made a statement published in Time magazine (July 5/July 12, 2021, page 6), “There is no happiness in life. There’s only a mirage on the horizon.” That is a quote from Leo Tolstoy, the Russian Nobel Prize winner in literature. Putin used it concerning the struggles between Russia and the United States. It is interesting that the Russian dictator living in the 21st century would draw on it. But, what did he mean by “happiness?” “

Oh noes, Puty-Pie said something!  Whatever shall we do?  😀  I do love conservative Christains who consider Vlad an expert in anything at all.  Vlady might be a nihilist; most atheists aren’t.  Who cares what Vlady might mean by happiness? 

“Happiness and pleasure are two different things. For example, sexual pleasure is not happiness. A biblical example is the rape of Tamar by Amnon in 2 Samuel 13. After he raped Tamar, the passage tells us, “Then Amnon hated her exceedingly; so that the hatred for her was greater than the love by which he had loved her.” Thus, sexual pleasure is not happiness, and neither does having massive amounts of money bring happiness. Unfortunately, the life stories of some of the richest men in the history of America are largely tragic and often ending in suicide.”

Happiness is “a state of well-being and contentment; joy” (MW)  and pleasure is” a state of gratification;  a source of delight or joy”.  So they are related, pleasure leads to happiness. 

Of course, John thinks rape is sexual pleasure.  He is ignorant and disgusting.  So his attempt to claim that sexual pleasure does not lead to happiness fails entirely, and shows him to be a complete asshole. 

Money can bring happiness; it just depends what you do with it.  So John fails again.  Being wealthy doesn’t cause suicide.  Being mentally ill causes suicide in most cases.  Severe physical pain can cause someone to choose suicide. 

“How does an atheist deal with tragedies and illnesses in life? If the things you think will bring happiness are put out of reach by something you cannot control, what do you do? That is when the futility of atheism becomes apparent.”

Atheists deal with tragedies and illnesses in life a lot like other humans do, but we don’t think some god caused it for some mysterious purpose and try to excuse what an asshole *it* is.  We know that death happens, accidents happen, some people are evil and cause harm, and the universe doesn’t care if we live or die.   So we rely on our own strengths and those of our friends and family.  If we can’t do something, then we can choose to do something else.   

“On the other hand, Christians find happiness in fulfillment. Contentment is another word that that describes the fulfilled Christian who sees a purpose in life and hope for the future. Feeling God’s Spirit working in you as promised in Acts 2:38 will bring contentment. That is something that atheists cannot fully understand because their belief system does not allow it. — John N. Clayton © 2021”

If this is true, then no Christian would commit suicide and they do commit suicide.  Most likely, John will blame the victim since he can’t admit that his god and religion fail.  Feeling some god obviously doesn’t bring contentment then. 

Most people see purpose and hope in the future; no John or his god needed. Most people are also fairly content, again, no John or his god needed. 

Sometimes life sucks, sometimes it doesn’t, it can depend on luck, hard work, and education.   Sometimes we have no control over things, sometimes we do. Think things through and plan. It helps.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – when Christians quote mine and fail

Matilda

Unsurprisingly, a Christian has taken it to use a quote on this forth of July to attack atheists. Alas, the whole quote shows that Ulysses S. Grant is not on his side at all.

What the nitwits at Does God Exist claim“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon’s, but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, superstition, ambition, and ignorance on the other.”

As our society rejects God and the Bible, people desperately search out unproven and usually false claims from human leaders. In addition to destroying faith and stopping people from living as Christ would have them live, it also eats away at the very fabric of democracy. Superstition, ambition, and ignorance combine to destroy the faith that has sustained America for over 200 years.”  John N. Clayton © 2021

What Ulysses S. Grant actually said.

“I do not bring into this assemblage politics, certainly not partisan politics, but it is a fair subject for soldiers in their deliberations to consider what may be necessary to secure the prize for which they battled in a republic like ours. Where the citizen is sovereign and the official the servant, where no power is exercised except by the will of the people, it is important that the sovereign — the people — should possess intelligence.

The free school is the promoter of that intelligence which is to preserve us as a free nation. If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon’s, but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition, and ignorance on the other.

Now in this centennial year of our national existence, I believe it a good time to begin the work of strengthening the foundation of the house commenced by our patriotic forefathers one hundred years ago, at Concord and Lexington. Let us all labor to add all needful guarantees for the more perfect security of free thought, free speech, and free press, pure morals, unfettered religious sentiments, and of equal rights and privileges to all men, irrespective of nationality, color, or religion.

Encourage free schools, and resolve that not one dollar of money appropriated to their support, no matter how raised, shall be appropriated to the support of any sectarian (of, relating to, or characteristic of a sect (a religious denomination) ) school. Resolve that the State or Nation, or both combined, shall furnish to every child growing up in the land, the means of acquiring a good common-school education, unmixed with sectarian, pagan, or atheistic tenets. Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the private school supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and state forever separate. With these safeguards, I believe the battles which created the Army of the Tennessee will not have been fought in vain. – Ulysses S. Grant, former US President and Union General. Annual Reunion of the Army of the Tennessee in Des Moines, Iowa, on Sept. 29, 1875.

As often happens, Christians lie. Funny how their god says not to, even if they think they are lying *for* this god, Romans 3 and a whole bunch more bits from the bible about how one shouldn’t lie: What Does the Bible Say About Lying? (openbible.info)

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Morality? Thank Eve

Alas, I can’t take credit for this. This is from my husband. “You opponent claims God put morality into the heart of every human.  According to their own book, God didn’t teach the difference between good and evil, the forbidden fruit was required, and off limits.  Without original sin there would be no knowledge of good and evil.  If you have morality, thank Eve.”

yep, he’s quite a bit smarter than me. I have the brain that is a great retrieval and storage unit. he has the brain that is the one that shows how things work.

This god wanted an amoral people per the myth. Things were supposedly, objectively, evil, but as long as humans were ignorant, things were fine per this god. Being naked was supposedly wrong, but A&E were nekkid with no problem.

Until that tree.

The idiot god got a people who knew what good and evil were. Seems like the people outstripped the god.

Most of us know that killing kids and committing and encouraging genocide is wrong.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – SSDD

If you are looking for anything new, there’s not much here.   Just one more Christian making the same claims, and trying fear and ignorance again. I have Isaac’s panties in a bunch.   Isaac’s post to try to scare people into agreeing with him is very typical of a Christian who is desperate for external validation by others telling him he’s right.  He’s not, but let’s see how.

“In the beginning there was nothing. And then there was something.

This is the essence of what atheism teaches. This something coming from nothing is what they call “the Big Bang.” Of course, their god, Charles Darwin, has led them into sacred knowledge of how life came about. Life simply evolved from non life, of course!

Their main teachings: evolution, nothing to everything, because science says, and my all-time favorite, “the lack of evidence is evidence enough.”

Let’s begin with their idea of the beginning of the world. They say that in the beginning there was a tiny ball of matter, which miraculously just existed for no reason. Obviously no one created it. That’s silly.

This ball of matter, which existed for no reason, exploded in what we call the Big Bang, again for no reason. There’s absolutely nothing in the universe that caused that ball of matter to explode. That’s insane.

Enter the holy trinity of atheism: Charles Darwin, Richard Dawkins, and Steven Hawking. They push this idea that the substance that exploded from a ball of nothing evolved into something. This is how we get cats, dogs, birds, and more. Because nothing decided one day it wanted to exist.

Now that we are familiar with the religion of atheism, I am going to give you some heavy reasons why it is dangerous. But first, let me add a disclaimer. I love atheists. Yes! Even the hateful, bigoted, mocking atheists! I just find their beliefs to be… crazy. And a little ridiculous.”

Oh the ignorance. 

Atheism doesn’t teach “in the beginning there was nothing. And then there was something.”   It is a conclusion that there is no god or gods.  Now, the big bang theory says that it seems like there was nothing and then there was something, but even physicists aren’t quite sure how that occurred, other than it is possible for something to come from nothing and they have evidence for it. 

Charles Darwin is not a god and well, we’re atheists so we don’t believe in gods or consider humans gods.  Isaac must make strawmen to attack since he has nothing else.  We have evidence evolutionary theory works and it has grown more robust since Darwin proposed it as a hypothesis.  A theory, in a scientific context, is “A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world and universe that can be repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results. Where possible, theories are tested under controlled conditions in an experiment.[1][2] In circumstances not amenable to experimental testing, theories are evaluated through principles of abductive reasoning. Established scientific theories have withstood rigorous scrutiny and embody scientific knowledge”  – Wikipedia.

“This ball of matter, which existed for no reason, exploded in what we call the Big Bang, again for no reason. There’s absolutely nothing in the universe that caused that ball of matter to explode. That’s insane.

Enter the holy trinity of atheism: Charles Darwin, Richard Dawkins, and Steven Hawking. They push this idea that the substance that exploded from a ball of nothing evolved into something. This is how we get cats, dogs, birds, and more. Because nothing decided one day it wanted to exist.”

Isaac also demonstrates his ignorance on what the Big Bang Theory says.  It has nothing to do with a “ball of matter”.  The BBT is about a singularity which expanded, not about a ball of nothing, and not about a ball of matter, nor about any of these things being able to think.   Isaac then proceeds into the logical fallacy of an argument from personal ignorance. Creationists often find themselves attacking yet another strawman since if they attacked the actual theory, they’d have nothing. 
 
Danger #1: Morality

This is a big one. I’m not saying you can’t be moral you’re an atheist. I’m saying you have no justification for being moral.

Morality was created by God and placed in the heart of every human being. The Law of God, or the moral standard, was written on your heart. That’s how you know rape is wrong, for example.

However, you can suppress that morality and do your own thing. Theists don’t usually suppress their morality. They live by the standard set by God. If you’re an atheist, you can still be a good person by following the morals set on your heart. However, being a good person doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things.”

Isaac *is* saying that atheists aren’t moral, but he doesn’t want to be shown to be saying that since his claim is obviously wrong.  What follows is a common theist claim: the argument from morality.  Unfortunately for Isaac, Christians don’t agree on what morality their god wants. One can’t point a certain moral stance and say that it was from this god or any god.  Isaac’s claim that we know what this god wants in our “hearts” is baseless.  Not even Christians can show that, including Isaac.

“If you don’t believe in God, there’s no reason not to murder and rape. It’s not objectively wrong in that case. It’s only your opinion that it’s wrong. However, since God is real, your sense of justice is justifiable and your desire to be a good person is not just an explosion of random chemicals in your brain.”

There are plenty of reasons not to murder and rape, etc.  It doesn’t have to be objectively wrong.  It is my opinion, and most people’s opinion, that it *is* wrong, and civilization supports that and enforces that idea.  No god or Isaac needed. Paraphrasing Penn Teller, I have no want to murder or rape just because I could. 

Still no evidence that Isaac’s god exists.   

“Danger #2: Beyond Life

What if you’re wrong? If I’m wrong, I end up 6 feet under, dead. I just stop existing. If you’re wrong, there’s an eternity of condemnation and judgment waiting for you. An eternity of fire and brimstone.

Not to mention, if you’re wrong you could be leading others to hell with you. Including your friends, family, kids, etc.”

This is just Pascal’s Wager and poor Isaac’s sadistic fantasies.  Pascal’s Wager fails since there is no evidence any god’s exist and there is a cost to believing in one.  Isaac does try ever so hard here to use fear to convince people he is right.  He isn’t.

It’s always fun to also see a Christian who is sure his god is dumb enough to accept someone who is believing “just in case”. 

Danger #3: Unnecessary hatred

This isn’t necessarily every atheist, but it’s enough. They spread hate. They seek to tear down theists and make us look stupid. This leads other atheists down the same path and before you know it, Christians are being hated, bullied, and harassed. This is how the persecution of the first century church began. Unnecessary hatred of Christians. This is why Nero ended up lighting his festivals with Christians, burning in cages.

Persecution still happens today. Check out the Middle East.”

Isaac has to pretend he is persecuted like so many Christians.  He also claims that some hate is unnecessary and here he is trying to claim that some people deserve hell and to die if they don’t agree with him. 

We don’t need any help making many theists look ignorant and bigoted.  They do just fine themselves.  

There is indeed real persecution of various groups in the world.  Christians in the US aren’t one of them.  And funny how this god does nothing at all to help the Christians who really are persecuted.  It’s rather like it doesn’t exist at all. 

“The Solution

The Gospel. You and I, and every human that ever existed, has sinned and broken God’s law. We are unworthy of grace. Because God is just, he must pass the appropriate sentence. And since his standard is perfection, we have been sentenced to death, which is eternal separation from God. Eternal separation from all things good.

But God is rich in mercy and quick to forgive those who fall on the mercy of Him. Because all have sinned, it is by grace that any of us go to heaven. Without grace, we’d all be damned to hell. That’s why Jesus came into the world, as a living sacrifice. And since he is the only one who has never sinned, his death and suffering paid for your transgressions. It paid for mine too. Like a judge in court, God has sentenced you. Jesus paid the penalty, or the fine. You were speeding and got a ticket, Jesus paid the ticket. Now you can go free.

“What must you do to be saved? “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.”

1. Believe in your heart that Jesus was risen from the dead.

2. Confess him as Lord over your life. Confess your sins.

3. Repent. Turn from your sin. A Christian cannot live a lifestyle of sin.

4. Receive the free gift of eternal life. The Holy Spirit will come on you, giving you faith and convicting you of sin.””

The problem for Isaac is which version of Christianity and the “gospel”.  Isaac doesn’t agree with his fellow Christians, so which version is the right “path”?   Christians don’t agree on what is a sin, so again, how does Isaac know his version is the only right one? 

Per the bible, this god is not just, or merciful or quick to forgive.  Genesis 3 shows this right off.   Could have had JC show up right then.  Didn’t. 

Isaac, like most Christians, is selling a cure to a sickness that doesn’t exist.  No “sin”, no “salvation” needed.  Isaac also doesn’t realize that one can’t just decide to believe in something with no evidence.   

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Yah didn’t think Ray Comfort could get any worse, did you?

So here we have Ray Comfort with his new writing “ugly baby blindness syndrome.” (gee it is part of a book) He’s sure those newborns and toddlers are evil. You don’t have to go out to “living waters” if you want so see ol’ Ray in his idiocy. I made a nice set of screen shots since I wouldn’t be surprised if this suddenly disappears. Shows you that any “pro-life” claims are false.

These people will stop at nothing to convince people they are sick so they can shill their “cure.

https://clubschadenfreude.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/ugly-baby-blindness-syndrome.pdf

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Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Christians sure like to pretend they are talking to atheists

or saying that the nonsense in Revelation will be happening “real soon now”

As above, Christians sure like to pretend they are talking to atheists lately, and of course, don’t allow comments on these ever so wonderful arguments they think they have. Wonder why? 😀

So, here we have Nick Watt, with his talk to an atheist.

And here is my response. Yeah, I’m bored so lots of posts.

So, here I am, an atheist.   Let’ me respond to your claims.

It’s always nice to see a Christian trying to poison the well right off.  I am interested in hearing your opinion, but I will not let baseless and false claims stand without addressing them.  If you consider that “arguing” then yep, you have nothing and only want a submissive audience.

I am need respectful of science and have reason to trust it.  I see no evidence of you respecting science.  You use the same failed arguments as those who are ignorant of it.   We can observe love, hate, jealousy etc and that is part of the scientific method.  We can also look at brain scans when people are experiencing such emotions and see the brain light up as we would expect.  Little can be technically proven except for mathematics, but we certainly can have lots of evidence to support our conclusions. 

Christians do love to pay word games since they have no evidence for their god.  They can’t prove it exists at all.  Since we know a good bit about how the brain works, nope, there is no reason to agree with the false claim that “there are elements of life and existence beyond the purview of science”.  There is no evidence of the supernatural, which is what you are desperate to show exists. 

Like so many Christians, you want to claim that if someone doesn’t agree with you, they are “dishonest”.  Unfortunately, you can’t show this at all.  Only science can discover truth so far, and religion and philosophy are baseless opinions.  And nope, the burden of showing your claims to be true is still on you.  You make the absurd claim, you get to show it is true.  I’m sure you feel the same about the claims of other theists you disagree with. 

People should indeed follow the evidence where it leads.  Theists do not since they have the presupposition that some god simply must exist.  Again, you still hve the burden of proof for your baseless claims.  I do not since doubt is the neutral stance.   And you have no evidence for them.

You claim that the universe is not pitilessly indifferent.   Show it.

The universe did seem to begin.  No evidence for any magical being starting it and most, if not all, religions make the same claim as you do.  Show your god is the creator. 

We also have no evidence for “fine-tuning”, since we  have no idea how far the parameters can vary to get the same thing.  All you have is being a puddle thinking how great it is that “something” made a hole in the ground “just right for it”.   We fit the universe, the universe does not fit us.  Your argument from personal ignorance is just more logical fallacy, that sine you don’t understand basic science, then your myth must be true. 

Reality shows no evidence for any god, much less your personal version of the Christian god.  The beginning of the book of Genesis makes vague claims that each Christain claims means something different.  Then we have two contradictory creation stories, and a god that fails to keep out satan or intentionally lets satan in, not warning its ignorant children.  And no evidence of this either “15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in[i] him all things hold together.” 

Lots of theists claim that they think their personal beliefs make better sense of reality.  They are yet to show this to be the case. 

Christians also love to claim that we’ll have to die to be sure.  That’s not what your bible says.  I should be able to see every baptized believer in Christ as personal savior being able to do what their bible claims in Mark 16, John 14 and James 5.  Not a single one of you can.

You may be “captive to the word of God”, but again, every theist claims this, claims that cosmology, teology, etc agree with them, and personal belief doesn’t show that any gods exist.  There is no evidence at all that you’ve tried to “undo” the evidence for your god’s existence at all.  I’ve undone it with no problem at all.   

Then you offer Pascal’s Wager.  This assumes you have the right version of some god, and assumes you lose nothing.  If wrong, you lose time and resources and could risk pissing off the right god.  Christians don’t think very hard about their supposed great argument.

You do offer the wager to scare people and, like most religions, Chrsitianity depends on fear and ignorance.  Your sadistic fantasies about eternal torture for anyone who disagrees with you are childish. 

I also don’t have faith as you do, though Christians are desperate to pretend I do.  I can show quite easily your version of your god doesn’t exist.  None of the events it has supposedly caused can be shown to have happened.  Your god has quite a few details, and that being is no where to be found.  Chrsitians have an entire industry of apologetics to excuse their impotent god.

This is why Christians often try the “make my god vaguer” route to try to get away from the ignorant and primitive god of the bible.  It becomes a “ground of being” in Tillich’s apologetics. 

You then try an appeal to authority to try to pretend that if someone is smart and believes in your god, then there must be a god.  Hmmm, so since there are smart people who are Muslims, Zoroastrians, Hindus, then all of those gods must exist too, per your own argument.

Lee Strobel’s argument is the typical false claims of a theist and his personal ignorance is no reason to believe him.  We have evidence that indeed something can come from nothing, and again, no evidence a god is needed.  We are continuing to research how abiogenesis works and again, evidence it can and still no evidence for some god.  The universe is not random, and the laws of physics work quite nicely in ordering it with no god.  Chaos doesn’t provide information but a system that has energy in it does.  The rest, consciousness, etc are just more god of the gaps arguments, “we don’t’ understand it yet so GodDidIt.” 

I know quite a bit about Elvis.  He didn’t appear after he was dead either. 

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – The conversation continues…

Happily, a Christian has chosen to reply to my responses to the Christian claims from the earlier blog post.   It is a classic since it contains every excuse that Christians usually offer and goes out of its way to ignore the hard questions.

1. “There’s a common misconception that the answering of prayers must always be noticeable, knowable, visible etc. …”

This set of excuses is nothing new for a Christian. They have invented excuses why their god doesn’t answer prayers and ignore their bible since it is inconvenient.  The bible says that this god will always answer prayers with what is asked for and answer quickly.  There is nothing that says that the “answer is no.”  Trying to claim that prayers are only answers if they agree with this god’s will shows that there is no free will and that praying is worthless.

Alan also invents this god that allows horrible things to happen to people and others to “teach” them.  I am happy to say that I don’t want anyone hurt to teach me anything at all.  There’s also the problem that the bible says that our fates are already sealed and teaching does nothing at all for this (Romans 9, Matthew 13).  I do have to wonder why this god doesn’t answer the prayers of the children that priests and pastors rape.  Is that to “teach” them?  Hmm, maybe that’s the excuse priests give too.  “It must be god’s will since he didn’t stop me; I’m a teacher!”

2.“Well, we can look to the Bible and Church history. The scripture is not sufficient on its own (sola scriptura), but requires an authoritative teacher that is guided by God. …”

It is a Catholic thing to pretend that other things are needed in addition to the bible. It is a Protestant thing to pretend that only the bible is needed. So, which is right?  Neither can be demonstrated as true.  Alan and the RCC want to pretend that they have the only right interpretation, just like the hundreds of other sects.   The RCC also didn’t convene the various councils, the Byzantine Empire’s government did.  Every sect claims to be the original or closest to it.  Still no evidence any of these sects are right, if any at all.

No Christian can show that they are even a Christian per how the bible says you can tell.  And there is no problem with declaring that there is no “ultimate truth”.  There is no logical reason to think that there is.  Just beause someone can imagine one, or at least the vague concept of “perfect” or “greatest”, doesn’t mean it exists (that’s why the ontological argument for god fails too).

3.“I understand how it can seem that way from the outside, but to suggest that nobody has ever heard a message from God requires some kind of omniscience…”

No, it doesn’t require some omniscience.  We have evidence that none of the essential events in the bible have happened and entirely different things did happen on any date that believers may want to postulate for those magical events.  There is no reason to think that some god talks to people through their mind or through a hairdryer.  Alan’s argument also places his god into a bit of a bind since it claims it is the only one and we can’t, per Alan, think that is the case.  Gods could be speaking to people all of the time.  I’m also sure that Alan would insist that we can know if someone talked to god since people who harm and murder do this all of the time “God told me to…”

4.“Good quip at the beginning about this person being the best God has to offer, but also not really relevant. …”

That we have such poor apologists like Alan, it does become a joke if they are the best this god has to offer.   Alan doesn’t want the message judged by the messenger, but since the only evidence given is the messenger’s baseless claim, then we have no choice.  This god does a horrible job of conveying some truth since Christians can’t agree on what it is and they again, can’t show that they are Christians.

No evidence that this god cares about anything, or exists.  The church offers help only if they can proselytize.  Humans do the work, not some god.  And indeed, as per Alan says, this is supposedly an “omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent Deity”.  In the myths, it provides food and water with a thought.  Why does it need humans now?  As for the “body of Christ” being active all around the world, that’s not quite true since Alan is sure that Christians who don’t agree with him are part of that body, those ol’ sola scripturists.

5.“All Christians agree in the existence of Hell. Yes, I’m being picky here. “ No, they don’t all agree on the existence of hell or what it is. And yes, Alan is being “picky” here aka trying pretend only his version is the right one. He tries to claim that Christians who don’t’ agree with him really aren’t Christians.  Again, so much for the “body of Christ” that Christians want to count in the billions, but also want to claim that many of those billions don’t’ really qualify.  The trinity is not required Christian belief, neither is that this Jesus was divine.  Alan seems to forget that there were many versions of Christianity and still are.  Christianity isn’t the one big happy family that the RCC leads that Alan would have us believe.  Even the gospels show vastly different Christianities.  Now, John does give one way to know a Christian: if they can do miracles as good or greater than JC and get their prayers answered (John 14).  Where are the Christians who can do that?

21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him.”  1 Peter 3.  Yeah, that isn’t agreed upon on how it is done either.

Like C.S. Lewis, Alan would prefer that Christians not talk about their hell or their disagreements.  People tend to see a god who kills kids, who damns people for no fault of their own, etc as less than “loving”.  As for the RCC doing “fine” we see rifts in that sect also, unable to determine if they want to join the 21st century or stay in the 13th.

6.“True, all Christians make the claim that the Holy Spirit is conveying truth. Yes, these claims can contradict. …”

There needs to be no right claim at all from theists; that is a false assumption.  They can easily all be wrong.  And, that none can do what the bible promises, this appears to be the way to bet.  Every Christian claim that they can deduce that theirs is the right version; they can’t.  Alan can’t.

 

7. “To be fair, the incorrect view is that of the Christian’s here. Regarding God isn’t a requirement to have a moral standard. …”

Christians do indeed try to claim that they have an objective moral standard that is from their god.  They do not.  They do not, and evidently cannot, agree on what morality their god wants.  They all have different Paul does indeed claim that the laws of this god written on their hearts and that silly claim cannot be shown true, and can be shown false in the sad cases of feral children.  Humans must be taught how to behave.  Many Christians have the arrogance and ignorance to try to claim that everyone is “copying” from them when it comes to morals.  That is not even remotely the case.  Paul is a rather nasty character who brags how humble he is and who tries to curse anyone who dares not agree with his version of Christianity.  He also was under the delusion that women aren’t equal to men.  I’m also quite happy to throw out the other NT writers since they advocate for morals like slaves shouldn’t try to gain their freedom and non-christians should be killed.

What humans have are a set of moral rules that allow civilization to work better and those have survived the evolution of humans from hunter gatherers to the farming and then technological cultures we have now.  No god needed, just trial and error.