I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'wouldn't it be much worse if life *were* fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. – M. Cole
As the title says, there is a movement in the RCC to make a “huge beautiful church” to their goddess stand-in Mary for the overthrow of Roe v. Wade. Few things go to show how Catholics have no interest in actually helping children than this. Nothing like wanting to spend millions on pleasing an imaginary character and ignoring real kids and families.
This is literally how disgusting these people are:
“if the templecost anything less than milliondollars i say if people really are arecontritefor their involvement in thismurder on an industrial demonic scalethen we should have at least one dollarper babywhose life was snuffed outby man’s malice
why not spend million dollars on offering practical help to mothers whoare pregnant? a wise man once said to someonethat the poor you will always have withyoubut me you will not always have“
To see the entire transcript (from the auto transcript function on Youtube), i have it here.
The recent decisions of the Supreme Court cheat Moloch of his accustomed cheap comestibles. He’ll have to make do with less. But, as with all natural systems under the orbit of the moon, this is a case of pushing the envelope in one way only to see it bulge out in another. Moloch will be served, adequately, or there’ll be hell to pay, and no pitch hot.
There will be deaths. Not of children in the womb, but of others. Moloch must be fed, by his slaves. Now that he’ll be denied the food of babies from so many “trigger” states, he’ll need to be fed in some other way. His vassals will try to figure out how to immolate some high profile victims, to sate his hunger and avert his wrath. I suspect they’ll offer up some from among their own company.
It can’t work. It can’t suffice. His wrath shall inevitably consume all his worshippers. There are not victims enough to sate his lust. His servants then are doomed.
Reject him! Serve the Lord of Life! Only thereby might you prevent your own ingestion, and dissolution, in the insatiable maw of Moloch.” – a Christian called Kristor
No Moloch, dears, and no Christian god. I do love the lies of Christians, who have no problem with their god killing children at all. The hypocrisy is wonderful. And it’s always good to see an impotent imaginary god that can’t get rid of another imaginary god.
Literally, the only people left who are happy with human sacrifice are Christians. We see this in their myths (a babe born in a manger and Jephtha’s daughter for starters), in unfortunately common actions where Christians think their god will heal a child and let the child die, and now in their need to sacrifice women.
Something I’ve found out recently is that the Catholic Church doesn’t allow baptism for the still-born, nor can a mass be said (more information down in the comments). Why? Because they haven’t taken their first breath and therefore aren’t alive. Now, funny how this isn’t what they claim about abortion at all. Now, Christians other than Catholics might be insisting that they don’t believe in this, but funny how they all read from the same bible, and it also says life begins with the first breath too. As always, the bible and its god is no more than a Rorschach test, showing what the human wants to pretend is true, nothing more.
I have the following. Please do feel free to borrow as you will. I will guess that my Christian blog followers will be deathly silent.
We have had the pleasure of watching at least two Catholics (I had mistakenly called them evangelical Christians) lie under oath, Kavanaugh and Barrett. (most curious since evangelicals are sure that Catholics are heretics at best and satanworhippers at worst) They took their oaths on bibles and per their god. They claimed they would allow precedent to stand. They lied, quite intentionally, and happily have shown that there is no reason to trust Christians at all. I do wonder, do they think if they pray for “forgiveness” and their god will accept that, or will they simply treat it as a vending machine, doing what they want, and demanding forgiveness every time. Hmmm, nothing like liars and hypocrites underlining how useless Christianity is. They have shown that no one can trust a conservative Christian at all; they are cultists, little different from the Taliban.
In my latest Freedom from Religion Foundation newsletter, I have the story of Arely Hernandez, killed by Christians during a supposed “exorcism”. They beat her to death and starved her until she died. Her mother’s words were “It is what it is.” So much for this religion being “pro-life”. One has to wonder where this god was, since it supposedly could have stopped it. Did its plan require a little girl to suffer and die? Where are the Christians taking a fit about this? Oh yes, they have much trouble criticizing other Christians since that means their own nonsense will be noticed.
Of course, these anti-choice people won’t agree to the fact, that since they wanted the children, it is up to them to provide good homes, good food, good medical care, good education, etc for *all* of these children. No one else now has that responsibility. You wanted these children, you now must treat them well like any one who wants children should.
Clarence Thomas said out loud what the QOP desperately hoped he wouldn’t, that any and all rulings are up for grabs. He mentioned marriage rights and contraceptive rights. Unsurprisingly, he didn’t mention miscegenation rights – inter-racial marriage), being married to a white woman. He is a hypocrite, as most, if not all, conservatives are.
The SCOTUS could have waited for next year to give this ruling. They were idiots and did it a few months before mid-term elections. It’s as if they wanted the Democrats to win. They QOP has nothing to whip their idiots into a frenzy anymore, and everyone else now knows that the Catholics and Evangelicals want to remove freedoms.
In all of history, it’s never been the good guys who take away freedoms and rights. Christians have found themselves squarely as the “baddies”, even the “liberal” ones unless they do a damn good job of showing that they have nothing to do with the wannabee theocrats.
And for your convenience, let’s see how many times this god kills children or advocates their killing in the bible.
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. -Exodus 21
If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. -Proverbs 20
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. – Leviticus 20
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. – Deut 13
Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.’ – Numbers 1
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and possess the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. – Isaiah 14:21
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered.” O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” – Hosea 9
“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” Hosea 9
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. – Exodus 12
“With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. – Jeremiah 51
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. – Leviticus 26
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. – Isaiah 13
‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ – 1 Samuel 15
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. – Jeremiah 48
When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. – Joshua 8
They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. – Joshua 6
And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.’” Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam’s wife, “Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. – 1 Kings 14
The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. – Judges 20
All of you who are on the LORD’s side, come over here and join me.” And all the Levites came. He told them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors.” The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, “Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing.” – Exodus 32:
Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man’s body and into the woman’s stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. – Numbers 25
The Lord struck the child whom Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became very ill. 16 David therefore pleaded with God for the child; David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. 17 The elders of his house stood beside him urging him to rise from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died. – 2 Samuel 12
Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock! – Psalm 137
Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;their houses will be plundered and their wives raped. – Isaiah 13
Thus says the Lord: I am about to fill all the inhabitants of this land—the kings who sit on David’s throne, the priests, the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem—with drunkenness. 14 And I will dash them one against another, parents and children together, says the Lord. I will not pity or spare or have compassion when I destroy them. – Jeremiah 13
23 He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go away, baldhead! Go away, baldhead!” 24 When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 2 Kings 2
Because you have trusted in your chariots, in the multitude of your warriors,14 therefore the multitude of war shall rise against your people, and all your fortresses shall be destroyed, as Shalman destroyed Beth-arbel on the day of battle, when mothers were dashed in pieces with their children.15 Thus it shall be done to you, O Bethel, because of your great wickedness. – Hosea 10
Samaria shall bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the word; their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. – Hosea 13
Yet she became an exile; she went into captivity; even her infants were dashed in pieces at the head of every street; lots were cast for her nobles; all her dignitaries were bound in fetters. – Nahum 3
Of course, there are many more (and surprising, how much this god has against farm animals since it senselessly requires those killed too). Now, funny how this god promises it won’t harm children for what the parents do: 18 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, “The parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge”? 3 As I live, says the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. 4 Know that all lives are mine; the life of the parent as well as the life of the child is mine: it is only the person who sins who shall die. – Ezekiel 18
All of the above can be found right here in just about any version you’d like to f – Biblegateway.com
So, was this god lying? Is this god’s morality subjective aka situational? And hmm, since this god never wanted Adam and Eve to know what evil and good were, one has to wonder if it didn’t want them to question it when it does such things and knew such things were coming. The only reason that, per the bible, that humans have morality is because Eve gave it to them. And then perhaps you have to thank the ol’ snake itself.
The common Christian excuse is “oh well, they are better off in heaven.” Nothing is quite so cold and so selfish.
Yes, ladies and gentlemen, the conservative Christians have struck down Roe v. Wade here in the US. They have decided to claim that it is up to the states to decide if they want to allow a woman to handle her own health care. This is the same group that says that people can carry guns concealed in far wider places than before and no states can counter that. Funny, hmmm? The party that is supposedly for “states’ rights” isn’t interested in that at all when it comes to guns.
They aren’t pro-life at all. They are pro-theocracy, nothing more, a sad little venal group who trust, not their god, but their guns. They are just like their ignorant and vicious Muslim fellows, the Christotaliban. I do love the pure hypocrisy. It’ll be fun to watch the civil war when the protestants and catholics attach each other for not being “pure enough”.
Come live here in PA, where at least we have a chance of being theocrat-free, and relatively free of most natural disasters, including climate change. I also personally vow to help, as I can, anyone who needs an abortion. Fuck you, wannabee theocrats. This is a lovely example of how impotent their poor lil’ god is, needing puny humans, to advocate for something it never mentioned.
I will guess that we are watching the beginnings of the balkanization of the US. Texas has threatened to secede. I wish them luck, since they suck on the federal teat more than most.
addendum: now what will the QOP have to lie about and whip their idiots into a frenzy over? Immigration? People of color? Jews?
A Christian commenter on this blog, “Alexander Phaethon” has written this set of excuses for why his god does nothing at all when it comes to children being killed. I’ve added some paragraphing so it’s not one block of text.
“I am, most likely to annoyance of most, going to cite free will here. It’s very true that multiple times in the Bible God intervened to stop a situation, Jesus’s sacrifice in fact is the best example of this. That being said, the Bible explicitly states that we will face trials and tribulation, so God never said everything would always be sunny and bright.
God gives us free will, that means that some people are going to do the wrong things. God actually does intervene in this though, whether we see it or not. For starters, He told Adam and Eve not to eat the apple. When they did, He gave us, conscience, morality, and a list of rules and commandments with which we can shape our lives in the right direction, and then He sent His Son to die for us so that we might be forgiven when we go astray and have the ability to get to heaven.
It’s not my choice whether or not the atheists here choose to believe this, but I wanted to point two things out here. Number one, a person who writes, according to Nan, a “VERY long” essay attempting to blame a being they, presumably, don’t believes exists, is most likely very bitter about something; I would also question this persons line of thought.
Furthermore, it seems to me that such an endeavor as this essay is such a waste of time; if you don’t believe in God, fine, but at least devote your time to writing something useful. Finally, atheists have long proven that they believe they do not need God, therefore, I cannot understand why they are so upset when He doesn’t intervene; after all, why should an atheist expect God to intervene if they think he doesn’t exist? One final thought, God can intervene miraculously sometimes, but we also can’t foresee how certain acts or situations will effect the future.
As terrible as a shooting is, perhaps God did not intervene because that shooting will profoundly change our world and help us make sure that shootings happen less; in other words, if God had prevented that shooting, maybe He also allowed many future shootings. The point is, we do not have the understanding of God, so why should we blame Him when something bad happens? Rather, we should use tragic events as a means to come together and find solutions to some of these problems, not tear each other down, as some people have tried to do here, and in many places elsewhere.”
Well, he hits all of the classic whines and excuses.
Here’s my response:
Alex, you will cite free will, and I, and most here will just sigh at your ignorance. There is no free will in your bible, and as soon as your god assigned the idiotic “original sin”, free will was done.
The bible also says this god will protect its followers from everything. So all your argument ends up being is a display on how the bible is incoherent.
Let me cite those verses for you.
“7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Is there anyone among you who, if your child asked for bread, would give a stone? 10 Or if the child asked for a fish, would give a snake? 11 If you, then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!” Matthew 7
“19 Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them.”” Matthew 18
funny how no exceptions are mentioned here or in the following.
“22 Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God. 23 Truly I tell you, if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and if you do not doubt in your heart but believe that what you say will come to pass, it will be done for you. 24 So I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.” Mark 11
“17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: by using my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”” Mark 16
unsurprisingly, not a single Christian can do this. Did the bible lie or are you all simply not getting something right?
“12 Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If in my name you ask me[f] for anything, I will do it.” John 14
“7 If you abide in me and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.” John 15
“13 Are any among you suffering? They should pray. Are any cheerful? They should sing songs of praise. 14 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up, and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective. 17 Elijah was a human like us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth yielded its harvest.” James 5
It is not until 1 John where the excuse that one has to pray for what is already this god’s will, which makes prayer useless and it is a lovely excuse for when the aforementioned promises fail.
“Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” Romans 12
” God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.” Psalm 46
“He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will abide in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say to the Lord, “My refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.” For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence. He will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness is a shield and buckler. You will not fear the terror of the night, nor the arrow that flies by day, ” Psalm 91
“Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; you anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life,and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord my whole life long.” Psalm 23 (quite a failure for the “shepherd”)
In Eden, your god said that the entire garden was for humans in the first story, and in the second version it says don’t eat or you will die that day. So we have no mention of magic trees or we have a lie. You get to choose which one is the “real” story, Alex.
This god of yours didn’t want humans to know right and wrong, Alex. It only wanted obedience. The only reason we have a conscience, per your myths, is because Eve ate the apple. The god wanted us ignorant. Eve gave us morality. And then, rather than just resetting things with Adam and EVe, your god throws a tantrum, and blames everyone for what they did, destroying any concept of free will. If I am damned through no fault of my own, there is no free will. Then your god decides, after failing for supposed thousands of years, that it needs a death by torture to make it feel better. That’s simply disgusting.
Then, Alex, you try the usual whine of “oh dear, why do atheists point out how idiotic we are if they don’t believe in it?” It’s because your lies cause real harm, Alex. No one needs to be “bitter” to point out lies. Devoting one’s time to pointing out lies is useful, and happily, here in the US, Chrsitianity is losing followers. From a 90+% belief rate, we are down into the 70s. And in addition to that, Christians all contradict each other, so there aren’t even that many TrueChristians(tm) in existence; they all hate each other.
Your religion depends on victim blaming when its lies and false promises fail. You invent excuses, including that someone didn’t pray “correctly”, wasn’t a “real” Christian, to cling to this harmful nonsense.
You have no evidence that this god intervenes at all, “miraculously” or not. You try to offer the tedious Christian claim of “but but maybe god needs to kill a child for his “plan”” Hmm, if there is a plan, then there is no free will, ifthis god must take the life of someone, the ultimate ceasing of free will.
You are just one more selfish, ignorant Christian, Alex. There is no surprises here with your excuses. You try to claim “but but we can’t understand god” when you claim to constantly understand him when it comes to what morals this god wants, etc. it’s ever so convenient to claim “God’s mysterious ways”. You have no problem at all praising god when something good happens, stealing the honor and responsibility from humans as is the wont of selfish, greedy Christians.
I don’t need kids being literally ripped apart by bullets to “come together” or to “teach”. That you do shows exactly how Christianity is evil. And yes dear, I can say that with my happily subjective morality. I would not accept such atrocities by a human so I certainly wouldn’t from a god.
As for your rules, funny how you and other Christians don’t follow them when you don’t feel like it. You invent reasons why the inconvenient ones don’t apply to you.
The excuses and false claimed used by Alex, and *so* many Christians, are why I stand against Christianity.
Dr. Darren Slade over at the Global Center for Religious Research has written an excellent essay about the excuses that theists, especially conservative Christians, give when it comes to mass shootings. In case you might not know, “miso” means “hate” and yes, one can do that even for imaginary characters.
“God and Mass Shootings: A Case for Misotheism
Misotheists argue there exist certain situations that demand an intervention by any agent available because of a prerequisite belief in the sanctity and quality of life. Had it not been for GOD refusing to intervene, those little children could have lived a full and healthy quality of life. This prerequisite principle is the empirical basis for every ethical system today, concluding that the lives of children are inherently valuable and warrant protection as an end unto itself. Indeed, agents cannot act morally toward a dead person, making the intrinsic value of life a precondition for its own sake. Hence, ethical agents have a duty to preserve each other’s right to life.”
Recently, I’ve been demonstrating how a couple of conservative Christians fail. Those familiar with my blog and those of others will recognize the screen handles of “colorstorm” and “silenceofmind”. Over on SOM’s blog, I’m addressing their nonsense and the poor fellows can’t keep from “liking” my comments.
Alas, I didn’t grab poor CS’s like since he’s removed it, but I do have his quote “Count me in too club among the throngs who ‘like’ the comments by good atheists when they dare to make fools of themselves on a world wide stage.”
and here’s dear SOM’s words “It takes courage for you to venture into “enemy” territory and speak your mind (such that it is).” It would be courage if these poor dears weren’t so impotent. Alas, for CS and SOM, there is nothing to fear from them. Oh and hi, SOM, since you are following my blog yet again. He makes 661. Alas it isn’t quite yet 666 followers. 😀
Oh and SOM has this peachy claim: “
Club, Reading the Bible cover to cover all by yourself is useless. And you did useless twice. I did useless once and learned my lesson. Jesus tried and failed to explain the meaning of the Bible to the Jews of his day. Like them, you don’t understand the Bible because you choose not to. You anthropomorphize God because that is all that will fit in your atheism-debilitated mind.
I cannot speak for the Great Lion, but I began learning the meaning of the Bible from scripture scholars and decades of study and contemplation. I think we fully comprehend the Bible when we get to heaven.”
I do love me a Christian who says that reading the bible by oneself is worthless. Per SOM, you have to have a human involved and per SOM, his omnipotent, perfect god is a failure. Tsk, such a puny god.
Now this rather bizarre behavior from our conservative Christians does remind me of one of my favorite Key and Peel sketches:
Unsurprisingly, conservative Christians are doing all they can to turn the US into a theocracy. They want to control everyone, not just women, not just LGBT… folks, not just people of different religions, etc. Everyone. All based on their belief that some god wants this. They of course can’t show this god even exists or theirs is the right version. They find they must invent a god that agrees with them.
They are trying to claim that the US constitution determines the laws of this land and if it doesn’t mention something, those laws can’t be on the federal level. McConnell is of course now wanting a federal level law to make abortion illegal, which shows just how much conservative Christians lie when they have claimed how much they want states to have the ability to rule on abortion the way the people want:
“If the leaked opinion became the final opinion, legislative bodies — not only at the state level but at the federal level — certainly could legislate in that area, And if this were the final decision, that was the point that it should be resolved one way or another in the legislative process. So yeah, it’s possible.”
They don’t care about that at all. They want their way no matter what, democracy be damned. And evidently their god be damned since it says not to lie and they have chosen to do so.
It’s notable that some of the justices are also now shown to have lied under oath with their claims of respecting precedent.
Of course, these cowards are sitting behind a fence to protect them, something that they refused to allow when it came to women getting their legal healthcare.
It is time for everyone to stand up against this, and for anyone who wants to claim they are a Christian, just not THAT type, to be loud to show us there is a difference. If not, they are going to be responsible for the destruction of the freedoms of the US because of their tacit acceptance of this nonsense. If there is a theocracy, there can only be one “church”.
Which is more important? Your freedoms or your need to circle the wagons to protect your religion?
Unsurprisingly, the comments got a little hairy looking on the prior post.
Alex seems to have determined he doesn’t want to debate things anymore. This often happens when the theist finds they have nothing when it comes to supporting their claims. In this case, Alex was unable to give examples of his accusations against various people, me, Joe Biden, etc, and give examples of evidence that supports his version of Christianity.
Alex, as the typical theist is wont to do, tried some classic logical fallacies, and some of the supposed “logical” arguments for god, but forgot that those arguments aren’t for his god but for some vague force and the theist can’t get from them to their particular god since there is no evidence for those gods. Despite the myths claiming that this god has repeatedly caused events on the earth that should produce evidence, there is none to be found.
Theists, like Alex, and bibledog who showed up later into the conversation, should consider their religion from an outsider’s point of view, like John Loftus recommends. They could simply place another god’s name in place of their own and consider how valid their arguments sound coming from a religion they did not have a personal stake in.
Here is what I’m guessing is his final post. Often theists do return to continue the conversation, unable to stick with their dramatic exits. We’ll see. I’ve put in paragraph breaks where I think appropriate since all I was left with is a block of text.
“You know what? I think our discussion has come to a close. No matter how hard I try, or how much evidence I provide, I know that in your current state you will never change your mind.”
This is a common attack by a Christian who has no evidence for his claims. He has provided no evidence. He has tried to use the various arguments, cosmological, teleological, etc for his god and they do not show that any version of the Christian god exists. At best, these arguments *may* offer a possibility of some vague “force” to accomplish what they claim. He has also used claims of this god personally doing things for him, which I suspect he would not accept from any other type of theist. Since no theist has evidence of divine intervention, there is no reason to accept this as evidence.
“You insist on standing by your science which is wonderful but seems unable to cure things like cancer. Tell me, if we didn’t need God, then shouldn’t science be able to solve all of our problems? Shouldn’t science be able to make sure that parents never get divorced? Shouldn’t science make sure that wars never happen (instead of helping people develop nuclear weapons?) Shouldn’t science be constant, never changing, always true, instead of always being refuted?”
Alex uses the science he attacks so vigorously. Science can indeed cure some kinds of cancers, which is yet another instance of Alex’s willful ignorance coming into play. Therapy, part of the psychological science, can help parents not get divorced. Science does help prevent war by increasing available resources which are often fought over. Science doesn’t constantly change, as Alex falsely claims. It is refined and since we don’t yet have complete knowledge of everything, we are limited in discovery of facts, e.g. what is true.
Now, compare this to the Christian claims of a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, and supposedly omni-benevolent being. This being cannot be shown to exist nor can it do anything that Alex claims science can’t do at all. It has not cured one kind of cancer, kept parents together despite the admonitions in its supposed “holy book”, and Christians themselves cannot agree what this god wants, making it always changing.
“See, the bottom line you guys, is that you can call my claims baseless or unfounded, and maybe they are (that’s why we have faith after all), but your claims are just as baseless. You cannot prove to me that some divine hand did not create the universe simply because there is evidence it had to do with physics”
Yes, I, and we, can show that all of Alex’s claims are baseless and unfounded and we have the evidence to support that conclusion. I’ve asked Alex for evidence for his various accusations and he either can’t or won’t. I can indeed show that there is no reason to assume that Alex’s god exists since we have no evidence for any of the events it supposedly caused. I suspect that Alex would deny that any creator god I might name created the world since there is no evidence for them either. Physics doesn’t need a god, so why assume one?
“I can throw a rock and you can tell me all the reasons why it flies in the path it flies based off of weight and velocity, the fact remains however, that I threw that rock, not physics.”
Yep, we can indeed describe the physics that allow a human body to work and how a thrown object behaves. Physics allows Alex to throw that rock. Without physics, no Alex.
“And you are all upset about me “lying” about you guys. Okay, how’d I lie? By pointing out that in world with no afterlife, it doesn’t matter how far science advances to make us comfortable we can never prevent death, therefore there is no point in us existing anyway and we might as well just clean up the population problem by removing people who are making it hard to live our pointless lives? If that’s what your mad about then I’m afraid you’ll have to deal.”
Alex requests evidence of his lies. Okay. He has repeated false claims about people, including atheists, Joe Biden, other types of Christians, etc. He has been offered the chance to provide evidence to support his claims. He has refused. “For instance, the Bible says no to worship anything besides God, that means that Catholics practices of praying to saints and such is wrong.” “Well, Biden does not seem to have it altogether mentally, and because of him gas prices are really high. “ ” I mean, by an atheists logic, they are going to die, there’s no way to stop them and nothing to tell them before they do so we might as well get rid of them, especially the ones who are using up all the resources in India and Africa and China.”
All false claims made with the intent to spread false information for the benefit of the Christian and to try to take away the ability of informed decisions from others.
He unfortunately doubles down on his false claims. “By pointing out that in world with no afterlife, it doesn’t matter how far science advances to make us comfortable we can never prevent death, therefore there is no point in us existing anyway and we might as well just clean up the population problem by removing people who are making it hard to live our pointless lives? If that’s what your mad about then I’m afraid you’ll have to deal.”
none of this is true. It is a rather pathetic attempt to claim that atheists must be nihilists. I will indeed “deal” with this by pointing out how these baseless claims have failed.
“After all, you called my God both a liar and murder, not to mention that you didn’t mention a single good thing about Christians. Do not judge others lest they judge you by your own standard, (there’s one you ought to like). Call me a chicken, call me a fool, or even a child. I happen to like chicken. God hath chosen the foolish things to triumph over the wise, so the more foolish I sound to you the better. And as for a child, well I like to think that I’m still a kid at heart.”
Alex has missed the difference between being child-like and childish. Why should I mention anything good about Christianity when it isn’t good? That some Christians do good, and do so by ignoring their bible, is nothing special or new, nor does it make his nonsense true. Humans can and often are quite good, no god needed. We aren’t the “dirty rags” that Christianity claims.
Alex has also tried very hard to steal the accomplishments of humans and falsely claim his god is the one responsible for the hard work of humans. Alas, for Alex, even if this bible of his claims this god chooses the foolish over the wise, it’s not happened that the foolish has triumphed over anything at all.
“I have done my best to be kind and courteous and all I got for it in return was a couple f-words from a lot stiff necked people. It’s funny though; I’m very mad and frustrated with y’all but my God would still forgive you and show compassion to you, so I will too. You are all welcome at my blog anytime so long as you keep it civil (to my standards). I appreciate all the time you took to set this up and the traffic, however short lived, you sent my way. I hope you all will find within you that thing Elizabeth was talking about. She might not have presented it the right way but it’s in there, and I hope that those of you have fallen out of faith will come back and those who have never had one will choose to accept Jesus into their hearts. Best wishes to all of you-AP”
Making and repeating false claims is not kind or courteous. Alex is the one who has described being friendly as *only* not using curse words, nothing else, which is telling. He is indeed mad and frustrated and his god is still a baseless claim. No one needs forgiveness from this imaginary god nor from Alex for showing him to be wrong.
I am quite happy that I engaged Alex and linked to his blog. His actions did more than I could ever do to show how poisonous religion can be.
“Now we’re getting down to the Elizabeth thing and then I’ll move onto the next of the comments you made. I think Elizabeth was right but went about the wrong way trying to prove it. She tried to prove that everyone agreed with her and not with God. But wouldn’t it make sense, that if God really did create the universe that everyone would know Him somewhere inside? You are actually correct that this statement contradicts my earlier one to Nan, about the Bible not being perfectly downloaded into our conscience. I suppose then it’s our human nature that causes us to suppress the knowledge. Let me know your thoughts.
As for me not being able to drive out demons and protect myself from sickness, that’s again where you have to look at it in an artistic manner. Christians do drive out real demons, but we also drive out the demons of sadness, insecurity, fear, etc. negative things. Protecting ourselves from sickness. Well, we still get sick, but when we have God we are able to worry less about all sorts of stuff, essentially protecting ourselves from the sickness of fear.
Now, a debate is a debate. But as my brother likes to point out to me, debates have an outcomes, and arguments don’t. I can feel that this is becoming more and more of an argument. I’ve have done my best to stay friendly, but if you can not do the same then I’m afraid our discussion might be coming to a close.”
No evidence that Alex’s god did anything, so no reason to assume his baseless claim to be true any more than Elizabeth’s. No knowledge, so no knowledge to supposedly “suppress”.
Alex’s inability to do what his supposed messiah promised is nothing new. He must try to claim that this messiah only meant “metaphors”, and now this god is again depowered to excuse its, and alex’s failure.
Debates do have outcomes and Alex has lost this one.
Addendeum – 5/4/22 4:41 EDT.
As predicted, Alex is back.
“Oh, is that what all those quotes were for; the ellipses and all the numbers made it kind of confusing. Well if that’s what you think, that’s what you think, I really hope you reconsider though. One last thought. Why exactly is it that atheists choose not to believe? If what you have told me is true, and they live to help people, and they expect that they’re going to die, then why not put their faith in God and if it turns out Christianity is real they go to heaven and if it isn’t then they don’t. Your problem seems to be that you think God is a murder and somehow wrong for orchestrating His creation, but if you look at the Bible in it’s entirety, you’ll see he really does care, and does do what is just, and does want the best for us. Are there parts of the Bible that we don’t understand? Yes. If you think about it, why would the affairs of an allpowerful God make sense to a human being anyway? If you accept that God is visible in the surrounding world, and not simply only the supernatural, then it becomes very hard for me to understand why there are atheists at all. I mean when it comes down to it, the difference between a Christian and an Atheist is that a Christian believes that, if a person asks Jesus for forgiveness and repents of their sins, then they get to go to a wonderful place. When you think about it that way, it almost doesn’t make sense that there are atheists at all.”
Why would I reconsider? Your god is a horrible character. I wouldn’t worship such a thing even if it were real.
I don’t choose not to believe in Alex’s version of the Chrsitian god, since that’s all you have. There is no evidence. I can’t believe in things with no evidence. Atheists do what they want, and they do and don’t help others.
All you have offered is Pascal’s wager. This makes your god particularly stupid if it accepts anyone who believes “just in case”. I have better moral standards than your god so I don’t care about its heaven or hell.
Your god is a murderer and a liar, and imaginary. I’ve read the entire bible and there is nothing in it that shows it cares about anything but being stroked off. So your claim fails already.
There is no part of the bible I don’t understand. It is the ignorant and vicious belief of humans in a vicious and ignorant god. There is nothing mysterious about your god, it is as pathetic as any god invented by humans. And dear, I don’t even remotely accept that your god exists,much less is “visible in the surrounding world”.
Again, Christians make up what their god disapproves of e.g. “sin”. Why should I care about what you’ve made up? There is no evidence of a “wonderful place”. And your “wonderful place” is a horror, with a moronic god that kills people for no reason, who commits genocide, who approves of slavery. This “city of heaven on earth” is quite the demented wealth fantasy, where everything is this tacky mess of gold, jewels etc. I can’t be bribed with such garbage. Christiansn can’t even agree on what this “wonderful place” is. The complete ignorance of Christians on what their bible actually says about the supposed afterlife is hilarious.
A Christian has asked to debate me, Alexander Phaethon, of the blog Peace of Mind. He comes to us from commenting on my last blog post, about a christian who insists that everyone agrees with her. You can see what kind of a Christian he is on his comment here. He also commented that he is “I’m technically 50 percent white 50 percent Latino.” He does think that Elizabeth, the one who insists that everyone agrees with her is correct. We’ll get to that in a bit.
You can follow along in the comments below. If it gets too unwieldly, I’ll open another post to continue.
To start off, Alex has asked this “Well, lets just start with our base beliefs and then will get to Elizabeth’s claim. What are your reasons for believing that there is no God, and also what then do you believe is the point of life?”
Alex, the reason I don’t believe in any gods, including the many variations of the Christian god, is that there is no evidence at all for their existences. Not one event claimed to have been caused by your god, or any other, can be shown to have happened. There is also no evidence that any of these gods come through for their worshippers as they promise in the various holy books that theists have.
Now to focus the Christianity we both are familiar with, there are dozens, if not far more, of versions, all of which contradict each other. That Christians cannot agree on the most basic things in their religion, (e.g. how one is saved, what heaven and hell are, what this god considers a sin, what morals this god wants, which parts of the bible to consider literal, exaggerated or metaphor, etc), nor convince each other that their version is the “right” one, shows that there is little reason to think that there is any “right” version. This is especially true since not one self-described Christian can do what your supposed messiah promised you would be able to do. Those abilities are described in Mark 16, John 14 and James 5, among other places.
I do say self-described since that is the only way to know who a Christian is since you all point at those Christians who don’t agree with you and claim they aren’t Christians, but you cannot show this to be the case.
Could there be a “right” version? Perhaps, but I see no evidence of what it is or that it exists.
The second part of your request is “what then do you believe is the point of life?” I don’t see that there has to be a “point” aka “meaning” for life that is external to the person living a life. There is life since physics allows for it. I’m alive, a meerkat is alive, my cats are alive, the collard greens plants in my backyard garden are alive.
I give meaning to my own life, and that is to help others when I can so they can enjoy their life too, to enjoy my life which means loving my spouse, my kitties, my friends, having tasty meals, a comfy bed, a nice glass of wine or beer or bourbon, creating art, gardening, etc. I am largely Epicurean (a brief description: “Epicurus believed that the greatest good was to seek modest, sustainable pleasure in the form of a state of ataraxia (tranquility and freedom from fear) and aponia (the absence of bodily pain) through knowledge of the workings of the world and limiting desires.”) in worldview, with a splash of Stoicism.
When I was a Christian, I was taught that the meaning of life was to obey the god of Christianity, and if I was approved of, I’d get to exist forever in heaven. I’m quite happy to have left that behind, since I finally did realize that the god of Christianity wasn’t anything I would want to obey, even if it were real. I read the bible and found out what it says, not the expurgated version that pastors and priests give. I found I had far better morals than this god from reading comic books and watching Star Trek than what the bible teaches. No promise of eternal life would be worth following such a horrible being as the god depicted in the bible.
Now, you probably are asking about what I found “horrible”. The following:
1. A god that condemns everyone for the supposed actions of two. This eliminates free will. This also is the story of Eden, where this god intentionally keeps Adam and Eve ignorant of what good and evil are, and blames them for not obeying him when they would have had no idea that not obeying this god was “evil”. 2. A god that kills every living thing on earth except for 8 people horribly by drowning. This includes children and animals who did nothing wrong. See the noah flood. 3. A god that mind controls humans so it has an excuse for abusing and killing them, including children. See Exodus 4, Joshua 11. 4. A god that repeatedly commits and commands genocide and rape of girls, see Numbers 31. 5. The idea of a blood sacrifice by torture required for “salvation” from this god’s actions that it screwed up in Eden. See the whole Jesus story. 6. The idea that if you don’t believe in the right god you deserve eternal torture. per both Jesus and paul. 7. The lunacy and viciousness of Revelation where this god works with its supposed archenemy to corrupt its followers after it kills everyone else.
If you’d like me to clarify, do ask. Alex, my questions to you are how do you know your version is right? What is the best evidence you think there is that your god exists? And what do *you* think the meaning of life is?