Jon Kauffman, over on Nonviolent Christians, has made more false claims about atheists. This is nothing new for many Christians and they do violence to the truth. This is my response.
“Atheists Fail to Defend Their Position.”
Funny how atheists defend their positions often, including me. Now, why would you lie that we don’t, Jon? You may not like what we say, but to declare we don’t?
“I have challenged several atheists to give me good reasons for why I should not be a Christian. To this point they have failed.”
how and why have they supposedly failed? Please do explain.
“I have asked numerous atheists about the resurrection of Jesus. A very common answer I receive is that no evidence exists for the resurrection. I know from my own research that very good evidence exists for the resurrection of Jesus. I have never received a good factually based argument from an atheist as to why I should not believe in the resurrection of Jesus.”
So, let’s take this again. What do you consider as “very good evidence”, Jon? Let me know and I’ll show how it isn’t.
“Some atheists avoid any information that does not conform to their world view. Many archeologists claim that the exodus occurred about 1250 BC. Then they say that because evidence does not exist in Egypt at 1250 BC then the Exodus did not occur. I don’t know why they claim the exodus happened in 1250 B.C. In my limited study of archeology I have found no good evidence for holding the view that the exodus occurred in 1250 B.C.
However, the Bible says that the exodus occurred about 1450 BC and we do find evidence for the exodus in Egypt at that time. I was discussing facts about the Exodus with an atheist, I brought up a piece of evidence. The atheist asked if that evidence came from a Christian. I said yes, he said he would not take the evidence seriously because it came from a Christian. Was this atheist serious about searching for truth?”
Who are these archaeologists? Your problem is that most archaeologists don’t think the exodus never happened at all.
And the bible mentions no dates at all (of course, you can show me where it does if you want to make that claim). It also doesn’t mention who the pharaoh was. Christians themselves can’t agree on who they want to claim as the pharaoh of the supposed “exodus”. You also have that there is no evidence for the exodus at any time claimed by believers. not one trash pit, not one latrine, not one grave, and this is despite the bible gives the supposed route taken.
” I have asked atheists for any proven scientific theories that bring Christianity into question. The response has always been silence. They seem to worship science but cannot use it to support their positions. Curious.”
this is also interesting since science shows that resurrection after being three days dead can’t happen. It also shows that animals didn’t suddenly appear in their current forms, which shows that the two contradictory creation stories also fail. Then we have the magic flood that Christians themselves can’t agree on, and the sciences shows that couldn’t happen as described either since the laws of physics don’t work that way.
“I wonder if some atheists are atheist because of the evidence or because they hate Christianity. I have read blogs where an atheist will search for mistakes made by Christians or search for Christians who do not live by the teaching of Jesus. They write blog post after blog post tearing down these Christians. This in no way demonstrates Christianity is false. It would be much like pointing out the evils of Stalin and the Communist Soviet Union and claiming all atheists are evil and that Stalin disproves atheism”
yep, it would be rather silly to try to lie about atheists when you have no evidence to support that particular lie equating atheism with Stalinism.
Now, Jon, which version of Christianity do you want to claim that atheists supposedly hate? Christians hate each other’s versions so which can we know is the supposed “right” one? You all claim to be living per the “teachings of Jesus” but all of you contradict each other on what those teachings actually are, and you all have the same evidence for your claims: none.
Showing how Christians can’t agree is indeed evidence that Christianity is false since not one of you can show that there is some TrueChristianity(tm) that has this god’s approval. That not one Christian can show that their version is the “right” one and that not one Christain can do what Jesus promised seems to indicate you are all frauds.
now, the question is if you’ll allow this post to appear in your comments. No matter, it will be seen on my own blog.”
Currently my comment does seem to be appearing. I’ll be curious to see if I get any response to my questions asking for additional information.
Club Schadenfreude 
Well, my comment seems to be in perpetual moderation there. I’ll paste it here.
Barabbas Me says:
August 14, 2022 at 4:30 pm
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
To be honest, atheists have no “position” or “world view” to defend specific to their atheism. They just don’t believe in God or gods. Give them good reasons and evidence to believe and stop a t tacking them for not believing. Your whole premise that they have a position or a world view that is specific to being an atheist is a straw man fallacy. Just preach the gospel. If they don’t believe, do as Jesus told the disciples “brush the dirt from your feet” and move on.
LikeLike
poor wannabee martyr. Atheists have many different worldviews. I’m a Epicurean. some are stoics, some are idiot misgynists and wannabee nazis. Christians also have vastly different worldviews, which makes it a problem since you all invent a god in your image and contradict each other.
Atheism is simply a disbelief in a god. Christians, indeed all theists, are atheists too. And poor Jesus, like all frauds, he couldn’t do his miracles in his hometown since they knew he was lying. And dear, which “gospel”? Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all tell different stories with different Jesuses/Jesusi. So you do need to show your version of Christianity is the right one. Alas, none of you can.
LikeLike
yeah, that’s a lie.
“August 14, 2022 at 4:30 pm
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
To be honest, atheists have no “position” or “world view” to defend specific to their atheism. They just don’t believe in God or gods. Give them good reasons and evidence to believe and stop a t tacking them for not believing. Your whole premise that they have a position or a world view that is specific to being an atheist is a straw man fallacy. Just preach the gospel. If they don’t believe, do as Jesus told the disciples “brush the dirt from your feet” and move on.”
I’ve no comment from you on 8/14. And I have it set up on my blog that after I allow one post through, you aren’t on moderation anymore. So it seems that you are making nonsense up.
LikeLike
Then”there” I was referring to was on the other blog, not yours
LikeLike
“Then”there” I was referring to was on the other blog, not yours”
or you were just lying and were caught. What “other” blog?
LikeLike
Not lying. The other blog you were responding to. The Christian apologist who said atheists don’t defend their position.
LikeLike
oh noes poor dear is in moderation for a *whole* day.
LikeLike
Barabbas Me, atheists don’t need to defend anything. We have many cultural and political viewpoints, and the only thing we have in common in this:
We are not convinced that gods exist. Your evidence is just too weak for us, and until you come up with evidence that is up to our standards, we will remain unconvinced..
LikeLike
Nothing to be done about razzafracking idiots like Jon Kauffman. If he actually believes that people *can* come back from the dead, he’s already lost the argument against anyone who knows anything at all about biology. Ancient history is replete with wild-ass tales about people coming back from the dead and assorted other supernatural folderol, so I can make a pretty good guess about the quality of his “evidence.”
I guess he doesn’t have a problem breaking that “Thou shalt not bear false witness” commandment either.
Jon, if you’re reading this, here’s your #1 reason for not being a Christian: You’re so bad at it that it makes Baby Jebus cry. 😀
LikeLike
Man appears to be living a pantomime world.
SoM has a Atheist question up: “Do you believe in God or do you believe that everything just happened all by itself?”
I haven’t popped over yet, but I might…
LikeLike
oh you should. SoM is such a classic poster boy for ignorant Christians. I do love to watch them eat their own.
alas, poor SoM and every other Christian and theist can’t show that their god even exists. SoM should be able to do miracles, per his bible. Seems he can’t. Shucks.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hi John Z. I believe God exists and yet freely admit the “proof” of that or the opposite is beyond our means in a Natural world.
LikeLike
yep, B has nothing to support his claims. Not surprising at all. He is just one more theist who tries to lie to me and then gets upset when I point out his failures.
LikeLike
Which god do you think exists?
LikeLike
Think? Hmm. Wouldn’t that include Knowledge and possibly the ability to “prove” like I just said I don’t “think” either of us could “prove” by natural means? But to answer your question the best I can, I am a follower of Jesus and a Believer in the God described, imperfectly maybe, in the Bible.
LikeLiked by 1 person
In that case, as the story goes, your god can very much provide proof for its existence. In fact, it goes out of its way on many occasions.
By the narrative, Jesus defeats death, and to prove it he furnished his living congregation with irrefutable evidence.
“To them He presented Himself alive after His passion by many proofs,” wrote the author of Luke (Acts 1:3), then says that Jesus appeared to the disciples and ate with them just to demonstrate that he was flesh and bones. “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.” Even more specifically, in John there is the famous account of Doubting Thomas; a story that is at once a direct appeal to, and presentation of, proof. “Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop being unbelieving but become believing.”
Evidence, it seems, wasn’t just important to Jesus, it was essential. So much so that he delayed his departure from the earthly plateau, not to say anything new, but rather to provide stone-cold hard evidence of the supernatural event. In fact, the character sets a pretty clear standard for what that evidence should be. It had to be physical, verifiable, observable, and it had to be testable as displayed in the story of Thomas who is encouraged to poke and prod at the human specimen.
Again: “To them He presented Himself alive after His passion by many proofs” (Acts 1:3)
Now, there’s also all the times Yhwh appeared to people. He even performed parlor tricks for Moses. He made staffs turn into snakes. Yhwh even promises Moses that he will “continue to show him that I am God.”. He then turned the Nile into blood, and other wonderful tricks.
And let’s not forget the alter challenge in 1 Kings 18. In this story Elijah calls on Yhwh to prove himself in front of non-believers… and he does!
Proof! Performance tricks. Evidence.
And we even have two instances where Yhwh physically writes, in human words:
So, can you tell me why you think proof for your god is not possible?
LikeLike
Wow. I’m glad you accept that all those happened Historically. It’s a wonder you aren’t a Believer in Jesus. The progression of “proofs” in the stories you’ve presented would seem to be undeniable. However… my view of scripture and the Bible isn’t really the point of your question or my original statement, is it? Best i can describe my answer to both of us being ultimately unable to either “prove” or disprove God’s existence lies in what I also said… by Natural Means. I guess I’d have to admit that in our Natural World, we only have Natural Means and tools to investigate anything. We only see and experience events or happenings in the Natural world, but we’d have to be able to trace back their origin or Cause to an Extra Natural Source to conclusively “prove” that that source was the Cause of what we see and experience in the Natural World, with only the Natural World at our disposal or ability to investigate. All we can do is Infer and yes… have Faith that the Source is indeed a God who loves us, created us, sustains us and provides for us. Faith makes the “connection” where “proof” fails. Again, absolute “proof” or “evidence” either for or against God’s existence outside of our Natural World is, in my opinion, impossible… or as near to impossible as i can imagine. I realize this will also perhaps fail to fully satisfy as an answer to your question. I guess I will just have to apologize in advance and leave it at that. Cheers. -barabbas
LikeLike
All we can do is Infer and yes… have Faith that the Source is indeed a God
No. And again, No. “Faith” (at least the “faith” you’re talking about) does NOT enter the picture. EXCEPT in religious circles.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hello Nan. I’ve not met you yet. Hope you’re doing well and having a great day.
LikeLike
Okay, so you don’t believe a word the bible says.
Fair enough.
I’m curious, though — If not the bible, what other source material do you have that makes you aware of the Middle Eastern god, Yhwh?
LikeLike
Sorry, your premise is slightly incorrect. I believe the Bible to be the Word of God. I’m much more convinced and conversant of the NT though. I’m open to the idea that much of the books of Moses and the “history” book of the OT are… less “history”, more Story. But I still accept them as God’s Speaking to me. Sorry, that’s probably a bit hard to explain for me. Best if I don’t try to “work it out” on this blog post. It also probably wouldn’t satisfy you either.
LikeLike
Ah, so you just pick the bits you like, and hand-wave away the embarrassing, contradictory, absurd, factually laughable stuff.
Got it. Thanks.
Curious then – Do you believe the author of Luke who wrote: “To them He presented Himself alive after His passion by many proofs.”
Or does that mess up with your hand-wavey apologetics? 😉
LikeLike
1st part of your comment… no, it’s a bit more nuanced than that. Sorry, can’t explain further. Prob not even to your satisfaction. 2nd part… I’ll admit, there are parts of the gospels that I have issues with. But they are the Speacking of the Lord to me.
LikeLike
Nuanced, right.
And ‘nuanced’ cherry-picking of the gospels, too. Got it. Cheers.
LikeLike
John, I think you unfairly boiled my answer down to what you wanted to understand it as. Are you in a particular habit of doing this….reading what people say from the opposite side of a question in the most uncharitable way? Or is it just that I didn’t quite “fit” your Bigotted “fundamentalist” idea of what I “should” believe as a Christian? Either way, I think I’ve treated you fairly, but haven’t received the same. I’ll remember for next time we communicate though. Have a great day.
LikeLike
I am simply repeating what you are, in essence, saying. I’m sorry, but if you don’t like the way your coat looks in the mirror, then that is your problem, not mine.
LikeLike
My “coat” looks just fine. It’s your misrepresentation of it in the most unkind way and the mocking tone of the delivery that I have an issue with. But I’ll remember it for the future when dialogueing with you. Have a great day.
LikeLike
Of course your coat looks ‘just fine’ to you! You’ve stitched it together in a “nuanced” manner to shield yourself from the absurdities of your religion, as revealed in the ONLY source material you have for your Middle Eastern god, Yhwh. Hell, you even hand-wave away the gospels when they leave you high and dry and embarrassed… as I just proved with Luke.
Your coat is pathetic, but if you *think* you look good in it, then great. Carry on. Just don’t whine when people laugh at your “nuanced” cherry-picking apologetics.
LikeLike
No worries John. You’ve made it quite clear. I won’t expect anything like Civil and Respectful conversation from you innthe future. Again, have a great day. -barabbas
LikeLike
Oh please, harden up princess. If your religion cannot handle even mild scrutiny, then scrutiny is not your problem.
LikeLike
John, again. It wasn’t your disagreement with my Faith that I was referring to. And you know it. I would and have told other christians as well.. you don’t have to be disagreeable when disagreeing. We’re all adults here and can treat each other with kindness and respect, if not for the other persons Beliefs or non-belief… then for their person. Have a great day.
LikeLike
No, I got it the first time. Your faith is “nuanced.”
LikeLike
… as is the Faith and/or practice of every other Christian or religious person you will ever meet. That’s why ttou don’t just “assume”, you “ask” them what they personally believe, if they’re willing to answer. This policy leads to a lot less adversarial/straw manning of their Faith. Im sure you’d agree.
LikeLike
But think about this, Barabbas … why should every “Christian or religious person” have a different take on their beliefs? If “God” is what believers say “he” is, why are there so many different opinions/persuasions/thoughts about one’s “Faith”?
LikeLike
Great question, nan. I’ll have to ‘sit’ on that awhile. I have my own thoughts, but maybe you’d have a guess?
LikeLike
Oh I definitely have “a guess,” but the question is directed to YOU …
LikeLike
I haven’t an intelligent answer that I’d like to share at this time. Go ahead, you have the floor.
LikeLike
“I haven’t an intelligent answer that I’d like to share at this time. Go ahead, you have the floor.”
this has been the case since you arrived here.
LikeLiked by 1 person
But nan, if I were pressed for a preliminary response to the question 🙂 I would answer that at least for me, the bible is the Word of God. Better described for me as the Speaking of God to me. “Application” to my heart and life and mind come as i read and meditate on it. I believe the Application of the Speaking of God to my life and environments is more important and impactful than worrying about whether the OT stories actually are history or even.. to answer johns query from earlier… whether the NT Gospels happened as history “exactly” as they have been written down. I believe other believers practice their Faith this way also, most without even knowing it. Hope that helps.
LikeLike
“Great question, nan. I’ll have to ‘sit’ on that awhile. I have my own thoughts, but maybe you’d have a guess?”
aka b has nothing, and is lying that he has his “own thoughts” about this. If he did, he would be able to share them. Funny how this always happens with a Christian who is ever so sure that he’s the only TrueChristian(tm)
LikeLike
… as is the Faith and/or practice of every other Christian
Well, isn’t that a ringing endorsement for the cogency of your religion!
LikeLike
I’m not looking for anyone’s Endorsement but God’s. Thx anyway. 🙂
LikeLike
and all you are doing is inventing a god to “endorse” you. Unsurprisingly, you are a fraud like all Christians.
LikeLike
“My sheep hear my voice and they follow me”. If you don’t, I can’t help that. But yes… I do and I will follow. I’m sorry you see that as “fraudulent”. But I don’t. Enjoy the day.
LikeLike
And yep, still no evidence for his claims. Alas, B, repeating baseless nonsense from your failed magic book isn’t impressive. Again, still a fraud since he can’t do what his magic book promises.
LikeLike
“John, again. It wasn’t your disagreement with my Faith that I was referring to. And you know it. I would and have told other christians as well.. you don’t have to be disagreeable when disagreeing. We’re all adults here and can treat each other with kindness and respect, if not for the other persons Beliefs or non-belief… then for their person. Have a great day.”
here is the Christian trying to avoid failing by trying to claim that we should respect him. Which is only him wanting us not to show him as a liar and failure. There is no reason to be kind to someone who has sadistic fantasies in his ever so important “holy” book. Your person is vile.
LikeLike
“No worries John. You’ve made it quite clear. I won’t expect anything like Civil and Respectful conversation from you innthe future. Again, have a great day. -barabbas”
and again, poor B. He doesn’t want civil and respectful conversation. He only wants no one to show he’s a liar.
LikeLike
oh dear, someone is being unkind by showing B’s failure. Again, funny how that always works out with the Christian trying to accuse those who can show him as a liar as being “unkind”. this is the typical attempt of the failure to hide behind more lies and politeness, since he has no evidence for his claims.
LikeLike
“ohn, I think you unfairly boiled my answer down to what you wanted to understand it as. Are you in a particular habit of doing this….reading what people say from the opposite side of a question in the most uncharitable way? Or is it just that I didn’t quite “fit” your Bigotted “fundamentalist” idea of what I “should” believe as a Christian? Either way, I think I’ve treated you fairly, but haven’t received the same. I’ll remember for next time we communicate though. Have a great day.”
then, B, show how John is wrong. But you can’t. You can only try to pretend that you are a martyr, when your lies are caught. Tell us why you think you are the only Christian who has the “right” answers.
LikeLike
“1st part of your comment… no, it’s a bit more nuanced than that. Sorry, can’t explain further. Prob not even to your satisfaction. 2nd part… I’ll admit, there are parts of the gospels that I have issues with. But they are the Speacking of the Lord to me.”
aka “1st part of your comment… no, it’s a bit more nuanced than that. Sorry, won’’t explain further since I have nothing. Prob not even to your satisfaction (aka I’ll try to blame you for my failure). 2nd part… I’ll admit, there are parts of the gospels that I have issues with. But they are the Speacking of the Lord to me. (I pick and choose what I want to pretend my god is)
LikeLike
“Sorry, your premise is slightly incorrect. I believe the Bible to be the Word of God. I’m much more convinced and conversant of the NT though. I’m open to the idea that much of the books of Moses and the “history” book of the OT are… less “history”, more Story. But I still accept them as God’s Speaking to me. Sorry, that’s probably a bit hard to explain for me. Best if I don’t try to “work it out” on this blog post. It also probably wouldn’t satisfy you either.”
but not the parts you don’t like. You cling to the NT, since the OT makes your god look like quite the asshole, and gee, Jesus references the OT all of the time, so youcan’t ignore it. You want to pretend those parts you don’t like are just stories, but then you try to claim the same ridiculous lies in the NT just have to be true.
Hypocrisy, you gotta love it in a Christian. And then poor B tries to blame everyone else but himself.
LikeLike
Wow. All that pent up anger. You should really see someone about that. It could really affect other areas of your life.
LikeLike
and gee, we still have the liar here. It’s always wonderful when a Christian has no evidence for theier claims and then tries to hide that fact by lying about atheists. Sorry, dear, no “pent up anger”. But nice try to gaslight me. As always, you fail.
LikeLike
hey there Barrabas, nice to see you lying about me on “Catholic of Honor”‘s website. Your own words “Club isn’t interested in dialogue or conversation. He’s all about causing as much “pain” and confusion as he can. His game is all attack and destroy.”
funny how you can’t show I’m wrong, but find it necessary to just make false attacks on me personally. I do love that there is quite the rogue’s gallery of Christians commenting there, and it’s great fun to know that you’d all attach each other over who has the “true” Christianity if it weren’t for me showing you all wrong.
Good to see that Christians have no problem ignoring their god.
LikeLike
Have a great day
LikeLike
always fun to see christians even lie in this. Sorry, dear, when your religion has you hoping I am tortured forever, I have no reason to believe you want me to have a “great day”.
LikeLike
Club, this is the last answer or response I’m going to make to you. In the very few times I have had interactions with you, you’ve shown your inability to be anything other than overly aggressive and hostile in your tone and attacks. You are the one who shifts easily and quickly into personal attacks vs civil and respectful conversation. When once someone like myself identifies such a person and tone and aggression as yours in typically, the only wise thing to do is to disengage… knowing that no good or benefit can come for either of us in continuing the back and forth. Sorry, but I decline. As said, have a great day. This “fish” aint bitting. – barabbas.
LikeLike
And so we have ol’ B here, again lying to try to make himself such a sad little martyr. Do show personal attacks on my part, dear, and no one needs to be civil or respectful to liars like you and your fellow christian, the fellow who fancies himself an “honorable catholic”. Hmm, per many Christians, catholics aren’t even Christians.
No, dear, it isn’t you “identifying” someone as me and my style. It is when a christain who has no evidence to show that I am wrong, and who is terrified that his personal god doesn’t exist since he has nothing.
Plenty of good happens to me when I can show your lies, B. This “fish” is a failure.
LikeLike
You’ve got it backwards. A martyr would return over and over again in order to take the abuse “for christ”. In withdrawing, I’m doing the opposite, refusing the continued abuse and attacks. It’s not wise to continue, therefore I’m not. I have no wish or fantasy of being a Martyr. I’m not in any way a spiritual masochist. Cheers, club.
LikeLike
and B still fails. funny how his last post wasn’t his last.
All B is doing is showing he has nothing to rebut my points. You try to lie about me, B. I’m glad you think your god is too stupid to notice.
LikeLike
it’s great that you are so very vain and ignorant enough to think that John thinks those things happened historically. Alas, he is pointing out that you are just one more failed Christian who makes up what he want to accept and then ignores the rest when it is inconvenient for his lies.
Alas, for B, I can indeed disprove his failed god. He has no evidence that it exists and for every single event that this god supposedly caused, there is not one bit of evidence that anything happened, and evidence that humans were doing normal things for every time a Christian tries to claim their god did something. So, we have evidence of absence and absence of evidence.
I always love when B has to ignore what his bible says to invent a god that can’t be found. he tries to make a god that no one can show doesn’t exist and that means he must insist that the bible is just lying.
he is the typical Christian who has made up his own religion, can’t convince any of his fellow Christians that he and only he is right, so he comes to try to convince atheists of his lies.
LikeLike