Funny how this claim from a Christian fails completely. If this is the case: “The answer is that if God allowed us to see him, we would indeed choose to love and worship him, but it would be by force. Out of fear of Hell we would love and worship God, and that is not what God wants. God wants people to choose to love and worship him of their own free will.”
the Christian must answer, why did this god show itself constantly in the bible, and there was no problem with it “once upon a time”?
Christians often don’t think very hard about their arguments. They react thoughtlessly in their need to excuse their god’s nonexistence.
It is often asked by those who don’t believe in Jesus, “Why can’t we see God?” The answer is that if God allowed us to see him, we would indeed choose to love and worship him, but it would be by force. Out of fear of Hell we would love and worship God, and that is not what God wants. God wants people to choose to love and worship him of their own free will.
So how is God to preserve free will, and at the same time, make it possible for people to know him? God’s system is this, he proves his existence through the creation, and he proves his specific identity through his word. This means everyone knows a God exists when they look at the world, but they don’t have to come to Jesus if they don’t want to. They can choose not to read the New…
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Club Schadenfreude 
Hello again!
I see your point and I understand your frustration with this argument. It’s true. God did reveal Him/Herself often in Scripture.
Yet, perhaps to say “Christians often don’t think very hard…” is much like saying “People with blue eyes often don’t think very hard.” I’ll give you an example. I have cousins who call themselves Christians. They go to church twice a week and pray every night. They tithe their earnings. These are all things I did too when I went to Bible college and believed we “Christians” were the only ones able to save the rest of the world from burning forever.
I ended up leaving Bible college after a lot of bad things happened to me perpetuated by these people who call themselves “Christians.” I call them Xians now.
By another definition, I am a Christian, in that I love and try to follow the words of Jesus. Yet, I never go to mass. My cousins call me a whore because I’ve had multiple lovers. I’m presently married to my best friend and we’ve been together for two decades, but I’m still the whore, and NOT a Christian because I don’t ascribe to their brand of Christianity.
Over the years, I have studied as many religions as I could. I believe as Gandhi said that this is a sacred duty of all who seek. Or as another wise French philospher said whose name I’ve forgotten, “Trust those who seek the truth. Doubt those who find it.”
I enjoy your posts because you speak from your heart, and about things you are most passionate. I rarely get time to read or comment, but I had to comment today to ask you to think of me, too, when you speak of Christians. Some of us are also seeking, learning our way, leading with love, and our minds are open.
With respect,
♥. Tizz
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I’m not frustrated with your argument. It isn’t true and I do take delight in showing that. There is no evidence your god exists nor that it has revealed itself anywhere. You have a bible, a set of baseless claims.
Nope, saying christians don’t think very hard is not like saying people with blue eyes don’t think very hard. Christians believe in certain things. Having blue eyes does not show that the person shares any beliefs with someone else.
And it is no surprise at all that one christian claims that those other Christians aren’t “really” Christians. You all try to pretend that your version is the only right one. Your problem is that none of you can show that any of your versions are true and it is quite certain that none of you can do what your bible promises all true believers of Jesus Christ, son of god can do.
You also all can’t even agree on what JC said or “really” meant. We have one JC who says to take care of the weak and we have another that murders every non christain in the sadistic fantasy of Revelation. Your religion is based on the idea that anyone who doesn’t agree with you deserves death and worse. Some of you do try to ignore those inconvenient bits. I’m not impressed by that either.
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“I’m not frustrated with your argument. It isn’t true and I do take delight in showing that. There is no evidence your god exists nor that it has revealed itself anywhere. You have a bible, a set of baseless claims.”
I meant frustrated with the argument you quoted. I wasn’t arguing. Arguing about which version of Christianity is correct is not something I will ever do again.
I also misunderstood and thought that you were asking why the Christian God revealed himself in Scripure and not since. I reread what you said and understand now.
“Nope, saying christians don’t think very hard is not like saying people with blue eyes don’t think very hard. Christians believe in certain things. Having blue eyes does not show that the person shares any beliefs with someone else.”
Yes. Bad example on my part. I should have said that I find all labels offensive when pointing to one example and then saying this is how all within that sect behave.
“And it is no surprise at all that one christian claims that those other Christians aren’t “really” Christians. You all try to pretend that your version is the only right one. Your problem is that none of you can show that any of your versions are true and it is quite certain that none of you can do what your bible promises all true believers of Jesus Christ, son of god can do.”
I see what you’re saying. I’m just as much at fault as my cousins since I’m saying they’re wrong for judging me. Thanks for pointing that out.
As far as whose brand of Christianity is better, who knows who is right? No one. Perhaps, as you believe so strongly, no Christian is right. For a long time I belived that Christianity would be taught as mythology some day. I was an athiest too. I lost my faith many years ago. I felt truly bereft. I didn’t want to be lied to any more. Thus my search.
I’ve never been able to perform the miracles Jesus did. The miracles were spectacular, but I think it’s the quiet forces that change the world, even when no one believes or respects what they are saying. I recently read Meggan Waterhouse’s The Gospel of Mary Magdelan. It’s beautiful and feels more true than anything the other disciples wrote. Yet feeling is not enough in a search for what is true, is it?
“You also all can’t even agree on what JC said or “really” meant. We have one JC who says to take care of the weak and we have another that murders every non christain in the sadistic fantasy of Revelation. Your religion is based on the idea that anyone who doesn’t agree with you deserves death and worse. Some of you do try to ignore those inconvenient bits. I’m not impressed by that either.”
You may be right. I appreciate you input. For my part, I believe if you lead with love, if you make every choice between, “is this toward love, or away,” you’ll do very well. Many taught that besides Jesus.
♥.
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Niki, you are defending Christianity and the blog post I’ve linked to above. I don’t know if you are the author of that post or not, but you agree with it.
The claim tht this god is now hiding because “free will” doesn’t make any sense if this god showed itself repeatedly in the OT. It’s either seeing this god prevents free will or it doesn’t. It’s either this god is interested in free will or it is not.
Labels are how we know each other, we being the “human” we and I know that all Christians make up their nonsense and that they do not think very much about their arguments, since even you evidently haven’t even taken the time to know about your own bible.
Yes, you are indeed as bad as your cousins since you all claim each other is wrong, and not one of you can show that your version is right or that there even could be a “right” one. You are right, no one knows that their version of Christianity is the right one, and they don’t care. They are sure that theirs is, blind faith and arrogance and trust placed with the wrong people for the wrong reasons.
I know you can’t perform miracles; no Christian can despite the promises in the bible. You have to invent reasons why it’s okay that you can’t, self-editing so you can still keep your belief that you have the right answer. You run from “truth” to “truth”. If feeling was enough, then all religions would be true. They aren’t.
You mention love, but there is no love in Christianity. It is nothing more than a cult that demands obedience. Its god doesn’t even come up to the half-decent description of love in 1 Corinthians. You simply ignore the parts you don’t like and invent a god that agrees with you. Just like every other theist.
Yep, others have taught love, and without the genocide, hate, ignorance, approval of slavery, etc in Christianity. It can be cast into the ashpits of history as one more failed religion.
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PS Sorry that one sentence first paragraph was unclear. I meant to write, “God did reveal Him/herself often in the stories of scripture.”
I’ve often wished for a time machine to see that burning bush. Or listen to Jesus speak.
/♥.
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well, you might get a time machine, but there is nothing to indicate that those rather silly stories are true. No burning bush since there was no “exodus”, no 600,000+ pepole wandering around for 40 years. No Jesus speaking, or being followed around by a Roman legion’s worth of guys. No evidence for any of the essential stories in the bible.
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I’ve never researched the historical BIble. I began asking questions years ago and you’ve rekindled my interest. Thank you. ♥.
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niki, it doesn’t surprise me at all that you are very ignorant on what your bible says and about its history. I going to guess that you’ve never read it in its entirety. That always bemuses me when Christians claim how important the bible supposedly is, but they can’t bother themselves to read it.
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I’ve wondered that the bush wasn’t burning, it was simply reflected sunlight. Jesus speaks to those who are born of his holy Spirit.
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and yet more attempts to desperately make myths make sense. It’s always fun to see theists try to remove the magic from their nonsense since it makes no sense. So, Arnold, if you want to demagic your religion, do tell how you are going to demagic the resurrection. Or will you simply insist that part is *really* magic.
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The moment a believer says “Everyone knows a god exists,” their argument fails and can simply be discarded.. They clearly don’t possess the ability to read others’ minds, as evidenced by the fact that their claim simply doesn’t agree with what I actually know and believe.
And when they bear false witness against me in this manner, they’re inviting a thump upside the head with a Clue-By-Four™.
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heh. yep.
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No comments allowed! Bugger. That could have been fun 🙂
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yep, no comments there, but the author is commenting here. you can address Niki’s claims to them.
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Niki is the writer?
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I believe so. if not, Niki agrees with the original post and can be addressed on why.
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God, the boogie man, the tooth fairy, Easter bunny, Leprechauns, and Santa all for the exact same reason. 🙂 I am sure there must be more.
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Don’t get jumpy- twas only a wonder. 😉
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this wasn’t “Jesus speaks to those who are born of his holy Spirit.”
gee, every Christian claims this and you all get different answers. All ever so certain some magic being chats you up.
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I always thought I couldn’t see myself because I was a vampire.
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my husband has posited that it is the silver backing in mirrors that would prevent a vampire from being seen, same with the silver solution on old photo film. But with modern mirrors and video, vampires just get along fine 🙂
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