Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – no, christians didn’t create “western civilization”

Just another rebuttal to a christian’s false claims.  This one is rebutting a certain Chad Marinelli, who is another pastor who gets his “doctorate” from a diploma mill, that has no accreditation, and gets by with an exception to a state law: “Indiana IC 21-18.5-6-2.5 Accreditation required; exception for religious institution   Sec. 2.5. A person may not do business as a degree granting institution in Indiana unless:    (1) the institution is accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by the United States Department of Education or is seeking and progressing toward accreditation by an accrediting agency recognized by the United States Department of Education; or   (2) the institution is a religious institution that offers educational instruction or an educational program of a clearly religious nature.“

It’s nothing new to see Christians be dishonest and get special treatment. Here’s the comment I’m responding to as a pdf.  Again, little new, just using my blog to keep track of my comments.  Memes at the bottom in case you care to scroll down.

I know that you are typically ignorant about evolution and that is well demonstrated by your own words, Chad.  You attempted to lie about evolution and have shown you have no idea what it actually says or how it works.  Again, still no evidence your god exists or is needed to understand anything.  Your assertion still fails.

Still no evidence your god is needed for objective truths.  Christians can’t show that their morals come from their god nor that any version of them is “objective”. But do proceed to show how you know your morality is objective.  You can, right?

ROFL.  It’s hilarious when you claim “allegedly evolved” when you can’t show otherwise, Chad.  We have done exactly that and again you show you have no idea what evolutionary theory says.  My brain, and those of my ancestors has interpreted perceptions correctly and yep, I’m still here so they are correct and objectively correct.

Christians often try the false claim that using the term “laws” “implies a lawgiver”.  Nope, it doesn’t, but nice try.  A law in science doesn’t need your imaginary friend at all.  A law is simply “Scientific laws or laws of science are statements, based on repeated experiments or observations, that describe or predict a range of natural phenomena.”  And you fail again with your baseless assertions.  Still no evidence for your god.  You are simply lying when you try such incompetent claims.  Things work consistently, again, no evidence for your god or that it is needed.  You have yet to show your god is the one and only, Chad.  Please proceed to do that. 

I have plenty of basis to know that physics is consistent since us humans are clever primates and can observe places far away from us in space and time.  You do know how telescopes work, right?  You have nothing to show it is not the case, and your claims of miracles, those little local destructions of physical laws, can’t be shown to ever happen. 

You also seem to have no clue about probability either, Chat.  Depending on something that you have no data to generate the probability for fails too.  As is typical for christains, you have to keep pretending that  your god is out there “somewhere”, which makes it so vague that you have no ablity to show it exists at all. 

Again, your god has many attributes claimed for it, and thus your god can’t just exist anywhere.  Your god is claimed to be omnipresent, so just why would time and distance matter?  You try to claim it is somewhere else, and yet it should be right here per your bible.  Your god isn’t a worm on Ceti Alpha V, so it isn’t there either.  So, nope, my worldview doesn’t revolve around probabilities, and your god still can’t be found at all. 

Yep, no objective morality, so my opinions about it are mine, no one else’s.  You still can’t show that Christian morality, any version of it, is objective, Chad.  I’m still waiting for you to do that.  Why can’t you?  You’re right, no one would win, neither me, or hitler, or you.  That doesn’t mean we humans don’t have morals. They are simply subjective.  No objective morals in existence or needed.   

Actually it is failure on your god’s part to communicate clearly to puny humans.  Your god is claimed to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.   If it intentionally makes people kill each other by their inability to understand what it wants, that is its choice and you end up with a god not as you Christians describe it. 

Per your own bible, humans didn’t forfeit anything.  Your god made two amoral humans; it literally did not want them to have morality.  It then told them not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to gain morality.  Having no idea what good or evil means, they have no idea that obedience is “good”; there is no value judgement to be made.  Then this god either allows satan in, and doesn’t warn adam and eve, or can’t keep it out and has no idea it is there.  This means it is either working with satan or is not omnipotent or omniscient.  Per the bible, satan is the second most powerful being in the universe, and is alone with two ignorant humans.  

Satan says that this god lied when it said adam and eve would die the day they ate of it.  No ‘spiritual death’ is mentioned at all.  They hadn’t eaten from the tree of life, so they were still mortal.  Eve believes it, since this god has said everything in the garden is okay, and gains morality for humanity.  Your god never gives humanity to humans. 

Then this god throws a temper tantrum, upset that now Adam and eve have morality, something it did not want. Adam and Eve did not have morality before, so this is the sole reason that this god is upset.  Rather than explain itself, and hmm, forgive them, this god throws them out of eden, and curses them and everyone else for what two people did, thanks to this god’s failure with Satan. 

No evidence for any “fall”, so your myth is no more true than any other “fall” myth from any other religion.  If your god cursed our senses, etc, the it is responsible for any misunderstanding.  It’s completely a god problem. 

Then you claim in “love”, this god fails repeatedly to fix this problem, the flood fails, babel fails, the laws fail, and every time this god promises it’ll work that time.  Then we have the invention of this god needing a human blood sacrifice by torture to make it happy and give it an excuse to make a loophole in the rules it made in the first place.  Rules it changed since it promised that following the laws would work, no human sacrificed needed. Being omniscient, it would know that they would work, right? 

Then you claim that the calendar mentions your religion, so that makes your religion true.  ROFL.  It also mentions the Norse gods, the roman gods, etc, so that must make those religions true too.  No evidence for any resurrection, just four(five if you count acts) stories that can’t agree on their claims.  No eyewitnesses, again just stories.  Funny how paul invents 500 witnesses, which magically vanish, and has no idea that the women were witnesses.  No reliability at all. 

Yes, I know you try to claim that the only “orthodox” Christians are those that agree with you and what you claim as the “core tenents of Christianity”. Every Christian claims that for their version too, Chad.  And not one of you frauds can show your version is true at all.  Presbyterians don’t agree with Cathlics on a very core tenant, is it free will or predestination? 

You are, like many Christians, church shopping for one that agrees with what you want.  This is one of the things that C.S. Lewis did get right in his predictions in the Screwtape letters.  Christians don’t say “most of the same things”, but nice try. They disagree on: free will vs predestination, who is saved, how someone is saved, what baptism does and how to do it, what born again/ born from above means, how to interpret their bible (which parts are literal, metaphor, exaggeration, etc), what morals their god wants, what their god considers a “sin”, etc. 

You like all Christians claim that those Christians yu don’t agree with are “fringe folks”, and again, Chad, you can’t show you are any better than they are.  Christians have no unity.  If they did, I’d not be able to walk past a dozen different churches on my way to work.  No ecumenical fervor at all, and you do a great job of showing how your claims are false with your own words: “I’m sorry for the fringe folks that make it appear different when looking outside in.” and “I’m in a church transition now, visiting many different denominations, and they are all saying most of the same things.” Why have ot make a decision, per your own claims, any should suffice.  Nice fail there.

You claim “. All the Christians I know from various churches embrace and accept each other as part of the universal church.” And yet you have stated you need to look for the “right” church. 

And then more fail.  “Only a fringe of prosperity faith healers claim that all Christians can do miracles. Most of the church agrees that the gifts of miracles were performed at the onset of the church age as a validation of Christ’s ministry. Those gifts aren’t for all Christians at all times. It makes me ill when I hear about the alleged “damage” Christianity does, when every town I’ve lived in had universities and hospitals started by Christians, homeless shelters, food banks, disaster relief agencies. Christians have shaped the civilized society you live in. Let there be no mistake about that.”

Funny how your bible says any true follower of Christ will be able to do miracles like him.  Is your bible lying here, Chad?

8 Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ 9 Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; but if you do not, then believe me because of the works themselves. 12 Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If in my name you ask me for anything, I will do it.

15 ‘If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, to be with you for ever. 17 This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, because he abides with you, and he will be in[h] you.

18 ‘I will not leave you orphaned; I am coming to you. 19 In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me; because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 They who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me; and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them.’ 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, ‘Lord, how is it that you will reveal yourself to us, and not to the world?’ 23 Jesus answered him, ‘Those who love me will keep my word, and my Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; and the word that you hear is not mine, but is from the Father who sent me.

25 ‘I have said these things to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not let them be afraid. 28 You heard me say to you, “I am going away, and I am coming to you.” If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you this before it occurs, so that when it does occur, you may believe. 30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me; 31 but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us be on our way.” John 14

So, we see you lying about what your bible promises, Chad.  Christians can’t agree if miracles still happen or not. Some do and some don’t (look up cessationists). And neither side can show that their claims are true. 

I’m sure it does make you ill when someone points out how your religion causes damage with evidence.  Your religion has murdered each other for centuries.  Your religion has murdered the members of other religions and of none.  Your religion has tortured people to get them to convert to another version of the same religion.  All of these things are documented.  Catholics burning protestants, protestants burning catholics, etc etc. 

You then try to lie that Christians were the ones who started universities, hospitals, etc when that is simply a lie. Yep, they started some of them, not all.  Your religion depends on false claims made by Christians.  Members of other religions and none at all have foodbanks, homeless shelters, disaster relief, etc.  Your ignorance and arrogance are quite visible.

Christians have indeed helped shape civilization, for good and bad.  Just like every other culture, the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Chinese, Indian (Asian), native American, Celts, Norse, etc.  You are not the only contributors to “western civilization” a noted dogwhistle for Christian nationalists. 

Yes, I know you can’t prove your god exists or any gods exist.  No fall, and if the fall blinded me, no free will, so many Christians are simply lying yet again.  I have read Geisler’s book and it’s just another Christian apologist who has no evidence for his god either, Chad. And his baseless claims are used by Strobel, McDowell, Craig, etc. No eyewitnesses as I have indicated above.  Curious how no one noticed anything about your jesus, despite the ridiculous claims in the bible.  Why didn’t anyone notice the dead jews wandering around roman-occupied Jerusalem during a Passover, Chad?  You have one claim from one anonymous author of the gospel of “matthew”.  Why didn’t Caiaphas or pilate note the riots that would have happened?  Why are there no mentions of this jesus as miracle worker in other places in the middle east like your bible baselessly claims? 

I’ve had literally hundreds of christiansn of all versions pray for me to agree with them over the last 30+  years.  Despite the promises in the bible, you’ve all been complete failures.  Why is that, Chad?  Is it that your god loves me as I am?  Your god doesn’t think any of you are true believers?  Or is it that your god is imaginary?

Your choice.