Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – and the theists with blood on their hands

I got my hands slapped for pointing out on Facebook that Christians and Christianity and other religions have lied and are causing a disaster. I guess theists don’t like the truth that their gods aren’t real and their holy books make false promises.

We have Christians intentionally ignoring health and safety directives.   And now they are getting arrested for putting the public in danger. This will of course be lied about by them and they will insist that they are being persecuted.

They aren’t and haven’t been. They have willfully decided that their nonsense is more important than anyone’s life. They place everyone’s safety on the altar of their ignorance and selfishness.

There is no magical healing. There are no gods. We are stuck with dealing with this on our own.

Those who support such ignorant and reckless behavior have blood on their hands. It’s that simple.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-pastor-arrested-after-holding-church-services-despite-coronavirus-orders-n1172276

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2020/03/pastor-who-claimed-covid-19-hysteria-was-plot-against-trump-dies-from-virus/

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2020/03/jill-rodrigues-breaking-ohios-mandatory-stay-at-home-order/

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-29/coronavirus-choir-outbreak

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51701039

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/louisiana-pastor-defies-coronavirus-order-draws-over-1-000-people-n1168501

https://www.newsweek.com/conservative-pastor-claims-he-healed-viewers-coronavirus-through-their-tv-screens-1492044

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2020/03/09/jackson-homovirus-is-destroying-the-family/

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2020/03/29/scamvangelist-declares-covid-19-finished-after-commanding-god-to-destroy-it/

https://www.npr.org/2020/03/11/814550474/missouri-sues-televangelist-jim-bakker-for-selling-fake-coronavirus-cure

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2020/03/24/pastor-arkansas-church-coronavirus-warning-greers-ferry/

‘If You’re Carrying The Virus, We Declare You Healed In Jesus’ Name’: Pastor Holds Services Despite Outbreak, Says Coronavirus Is Of Demonic Origin

https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Is-Zionist-coronavirus-cure-Halal-Iranian-cleric-says-yes-620900

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/how-iran-became-a-new-epicenter-of-the-coronavirus-outbreak

https://english.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2020/2/25/applying-essential-oil-to-anus-cures-coronavirus-iranian-cleric?utm_source=facebook

https://www.propublica.org/article/as-coronavirus-cases-rise-members-of-some-ultra-orthodox-jewish-communities-continue-to-congregate

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/30/liberty-university-coronavirus-student-positive-jerry-falwell-jr


Now, many Christians, and I’m sure other believers will complain and insist that one can’t judge their religion by the people practicing it. Sorry, we can and we will. Your god does nothing, and your people lie.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – the United States of America 2020 Census form

This is the sheet of the 2020 US census that has us telling a little about ourselves. My household seem to get one of the shorter versions, but *all* will have this on them.

2020 US Census Form

 

For you who don’t want to squint at the picture, the most curious question is below
What is Person 1’s race? (the print area is 16 characters)
White – Print, for example, German, Irish, English, Italian, Lebanese, Egyptian, etc

Black or African Am. – Print, for example, African American, Jamaican, Haitian, Nigerian, Ethopian, Somali, etc.

American Indian or Alaskan Native – Print name of enrolled or principal tribe(s), for example Navajo Nation, Blackfeet Tribe, Mayan, Aztec, Native Village of Barro Inupiat Traditional Government, Nome Eskimo Community 

Chinese

Filipino

Asian Indian

Vietnamese

Korean

Japanese

Native Hawaiian

Samoan

Chamorro (these are folks from Guam and the Mariannas Islands)

Other Asian – Print, for example, Pakistani, Cambodian, Hmong, etc

Other Pacific Islander – Print, for example, Tongan, Fijian, Marshallese, etc

Some other race – Print race or origin

Now we’ve had some problems here with Trump and his bigoted followers and allies with what was going to be on our census. The Trumpies wanted this on the census “’Is this person a Citizen of the United States?’”

This was, of course, to feed their hate and fear of immigrants.   It was kept off the census.

But as you can see above, we have what they seem to think will work. From what I suspect, a lot of people will put their ancestry and this gives our white supremacists something to work on since that orange asshole only wants people from the Nordic countries just like his wannabee nazi friends. You of course remember the reference to “shithole countries”.   The 2010 Census form didn’t have such questions on it for people of caucasian or African descent. 2010questionnaire

Now, I’m quite a mixed back when it comes to ancestry.  I did one of those gene tests for my folks, knowing that anything they had I would have, so didn’t need to get one for myself.  My ancestry is Austrian, English, Nordic (the  alpha 1 anti-trypisin deficiency genetic screw up originated there), Hungarian and evidently I have a little of Sephardic Jew in there somewhere.  What the fuck am I supposed to put down?

This question makes no sense *unless* you want to figure out who are the “pure” people and who aren’t.

I’m putting “American” in the box.  No one needs to know where you came from, just who you are now.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Theists, the jig is up

Complete Christian idiots
Complete Christian idiots

So, here we are with a pandemic.   I’m working from home now and so is my husband for at least the next 14 days. We aren’t in the risky populations but my folks are, my dad having COPD thanks to a lifetime of smoking and inhaling gods know what from being a farmer and my mom from just being older. My family has alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency aka genetic emphysema running through it. This means that anyone with two of the copies of the gene has lungs that react badly to many things, like my aunt who was a teacher for years and the chalk dust was what made her lungs crap. My uncle died of complications from breathing in silage dust and welding fumes.

Weirdly enough, this gene mutation is also thought to protect people from intestinal worms so it did have a limited good effect when worms were a much larger issue than they are now. The smoke from inside sources of heat back then must have been a problem though.

So, yes, stay home, avoid people and deal with it.

What is interesting now is that religions are having to deal with this in a way I don’t recall seeing before. We have some Christians realizing that their god has no power over a virus and believing science quite a lot now, despite their attempts to claim that it is wrong in relation to their religion. We also have other Christians ignoring reality and making things worse by their lies.

In both cases, we have that the claims that religions make shown to be completely false. No magic god, no magic healing, there is just reality and we have to deal with it. Trump declared a “day of prayer” and unsurprisingly, nothing at all happened.

It is very much past time to ditch magical thinking.

Here is a good article on the virus: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/covid-19-update-what-you-need-to-know/

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – just in case you weren’t completely sure that conservative Christians were inhumane

Shilled by Ken Ham of the failed Ark museum and the Creation museum, we have this prize.  If you don’t want to click, here’s a screen capture of their vileness.  It wouldn’t surprise me if they take this down to try to hide what they really think.

“Put together a medical mission team in your church for a local response (kind of like Samaritan’s Purse, but a local effort). The beauty of such a team is that infectious disease outbreaks happen regularly. Having something in place will mobilize the church moving forward.

Purchase as many personal hygiene products that are currently in high demand. We need to quit making memes about the shortages of toilet paper and hand sanitizer worldwide and begin to realize that people perceive these items as a need. Churches should stock up on these supplies for distribution to their local communities. Ideas for this include taking supplies to your community or putting together fliers indicating that your church is distributing free personal hygiene products. And if people quit overbuying these supplies, why wouldn’t the church not use the same items for its members during our weekly services? It just makes sense to promote good personal hygiene because it is ultimately derived from a biblical worldview.

Have someone creative and biblical write a tract for distribution to each person receiving the personal hygiene products. What a travesty to meet people’s physical needs and neglect to tell them about their most important spiritual need: a relationship with the Creator Redeemer Jesus Christ. Here’s an idea of something you can include to answer hard questions in light of sickness and death.”

So, we have Christians who think it’s great that there is a pandemic, and who want to horde supplies, but supplies that no one needs for the coronavirus.  And then only give them out if they can also proselytize to the person who think they need toilet paper.

This underlines that conservative Christians do only help people for their own benefit, e.g. their desperate need for external validation.  They have no problem in using fear and misery to make people agree with them.

Terrorism is an evil thing.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – quote mining by Christians

As is my habit, I look at various posts on WordPress with the words “atheist” and “atheism” to see what the chatter out there is like. Most post are by Christians who are very afraid of us atheists. To the point they choose to lie to support their fear. They try so hard to make believe that all atheists are nihilists to drive people into their imaginary god’s arms.

Fair warning, this post is long since the truth takes more time and space than lies.

In this episode, we have Christians, Presbyterians like I used to be, intentionally misrepresenting quotes from atheists. Let’s compare what they have with the real quote in context and with what Christianity says about humans.

“What do atheists think about the universe and our little race of advanced primates?

Hear them speak: “The human race is not special.”– Geoff Dawson, opinion piece, ABC news (Australia)”

This comes from this article here.  Now, what we can read from the actual article is:

We’re not special

As human beings, we need to remind ourselves that we are oxygen-breathing biped mammals.

In other words, we are animals. Evolutionary science demonstrates that we are continuous, not discontinuous, with other animal species

If one’s view of the world is based on science, we are not special, we were not placed here by a God to be the custodians of the Earth (and if we were, we have let the Almighty down big time!) and like all other species, we will have our place in the sun. The myth that we are somehow special and will continue to live forever as a dominant species is based on a deluded human-centric form of existential narcissism.”

It goes on to say how great it is that we are indeed humans, even if we aren’t “special”.

When we embrace the end, our lives are more vibrant

This means the adults learning to calm themselves in the face of their own inevitable mortality. The practice of mindfulness and the contemplation of one’s own death is one beneficial way to do this.

When we embrace the end, our lives are more vibrant

This means the adults learning to calm themselves in the face of their own inevitable mortality. The practice of mindfulness and the contemplation of one’s own death is one beneficial way to do this.”

Now, let’s look at what the bible says about humans.

“We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a menstrual rags.
We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.” – Isaiah 64. 

This is the same nonsense we see in the NT where we’re told that humans are dogs unless they worship the Christian god. The bible ends where this god murders all non-christians and then works with Satan to corrupt the Christians that are left (Revelation 19-21) That’s quite a god that the Christians have, not caring about humans at all unless they constantly praise it.

“The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.”

– Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden”

Unsurprisingly, this is taken out of context. This is what comes before: Continue reading “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – quote mining by Christians”

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – hearing voices

Occasionally, I come upon a post by a theist and then comment on it.  A couple of exchanges in, suddenly there are “rules” that are enforced when the Christian can’t find an answer or finds the line of debate less than flattering to his points.  Oh well, that doesn’t stop reality from existing.

The post I found was on hearing the Christian god.  This claim of directly interacting with the deity is pretty common in Christianity, where each Christian is sure that they were told directly what this god “really” means when it comes to the bible, etc.   Our author states “Without God personally speaking to us, we are not able to follow Him. And without following Him, we are left following a Book and the dictates of the religious community in which we live. The problem is: The Book points to Him, and in Him alone do we find eternal life.”

That does present a problem since Christians don’t agree on what this god is saying.

The claim that god speaks to someone is fraught with peril.  In addition to the wildly differing claims by Christians about what this god says to them, we also have that Christians claim that their god tells them to kill their children, or do other heinous acts, and they follow through.  There is no way to tell who is telling the truth, if any at all.

The author states that “If someone thinks they are hearing from God, there is no telling what they might do to act upon what they are hearing.”  This is true, we have no idea and this god does nothing to show any differences between hearing this god and hearing voices if you are schizophrenic.   He also states “The other difficulty we have (and this applies to believers) is knowing the difference between what God is saying and what we are saying.”  That is indeed the case: how can one tell since each Christian comes up with a different message from this god?

In that we have these problems, there is no reason to think that anyone is hearing from this god.

Our author also tries to claim that we simply must be hearing from this god because the mind isn’t the chemical lump in our skull, it has to be something else.  What this something else is seems to be a little beyond our author since he never explains it or explains how it is interacting with the brain and acting just like the brain is its source.  We also get the usual willful ignorance from a theist that the entire universe is supposed random, when that’s not what the evidence indicates.

It’s easy to simply say “no” when you want to claim that the brain isn’t the source of the mind, but a lot harder to defend that position in reality.  That’s why our author ends up making very silly claims that if we don’t believe in his magic, then we simply must believe that our minds are “illusions” and life is meaningless.  All he has are baseless claims intended to gin up fear.

And as one final attempt to gin up fear, we have the common Christian claim that atheism somehow is responsible for atrocities, when that is not the case.  But it sure does make a theist happy to spread such fear and try to convince people that only they are the salvation, they and the “word” of their god.  How dare we know that we don’t need them and their god to be humane humans.  Humans are good without their god or any other.

Father along down the comments we have other comments by our author and the site owner like “”One things I found when I became a Christian is how much Christian denominations actually agree, doctrinally. The examples you cite are not, to my knowledge, differences held among Christians. They seem to be opinions held by those that are not.”

This was in response to a post I made that our Christians edited to not show that Christian have doctrinal difference.  What are those differences you might ask?

what morals does this god want?

what is heaven/hell?

is there free will or predestination?

what is the purpose of prayer?

What/who really was Jesus Christ?

how is one baptized and what is the significance?

do saints exist/intercede?

what will get one saved?

what parts of the bible are to be taken literally, metaphorically or ignored? 

This isn’t even remotely the end to those points. Rather inconvenient when an atheists shows that a Christian is either ignorant or is making false claims intentionally, isn’t it?

I was told that Christian are to look to the life and behavior of Jesus as captured in the Gospels and not religious doctrines.  However, again, we have problems with what JC does in the gospels and in Revelation, something that many Christians don’t like to admit to at all.

Those posts showing where JC calls people a dog, says that people should hate and abandon families and kills a lot of people in revelations are also being held in moderation.

“what would Jesus do” ends up being quite a lot of different things and that is evidently embarrassing.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – another “clever” Christian

Another “clever” Christian with their lists of questions.  They never acknowledge the answers and just run away. Oh well, it’s an easy post to show how little so many Christians think.

  1. Why is there something rather than nothing?

We don’t completely know yet. Still no evidence for this god or any gods.

  1. Is there any evidence that suggests the universe is eternal?

We don’t know what came before the BBT.  There are some hypotheses.  Again, we don’t know yet, and still no evidence for a god.

  1. If not, why do Atheists hold onto the idea and say you have debunked the Kalam Cosmological Argument?

Because we have.   The cosmological argument fails because it depends on an a priori assumption that can’t be shown to exist.  The laws of physics have as much chance of being an eternal cause as a god, and probably more hance since Christians and theist can’t agree on a god.

  1. If so, why do the vast majority of scientists reject this idea?

They don’t.

  1. Why is the universe so fine-tuned?

It isn’t.  When 99.999…% of the universe is deadly to humans, there’s nothing “fine” about it.  If you want to claim a god did this, what an incompetent god.

  1. If your answer is the multiverse, why is there no evidence for that theory?

I don’t and we don’t have any evidence *yet*.    Poor god of the gaps argument.

  1. Is it possible that there is no natural explanation for the origin of life?

Evidence please.  But sure, anyone of a billion gods can be responsible.  Show that it was your version of the Chrsitain god.

  1. Where does consciousness come from?

We’re not sure yet.   Seems to be from the brain since injury to the brain or an imbalance of brain chemicals changes it.

  1. Do you lack a belief that God exists or would you say that God does not exist?

The gods defined by humans don’t exist.  There is no evidence for them.  Could there be some vague thing?  Maybe, but that’s not the god you worship is it?

  1. Do you lack a belief that Zeus/God exists, or do you believe that Zeus does/God not exist?

See above.

  1. If you just lack a belief that Zeus/God exists, why are you centuries behind the rest of the world who say that Zeus doesn’t exist?

See above.

  1. Do you act according to what you believe, or what you just lack a belief in?

Yes to both.

  1. What evidence is there that Atheism corresponds with reality?

Evidence that theists claims never happened and that other things entirely did.

  1. Is Atheism a worldview?

No.  You do need to get a dictionary, don’t you?

  1. If not, what is your worldview?

Pretty close to Epicureanism.

  1. What would convince you that God exists?

Evidence.  And hmmm, which god since theists can’t agree, not even among themselves?   How about Christians being able to do what the bible says, that every baptized believer in Christ as savior can do miracles like Christ (Mark 16, James 5)?

  1. Are you willing to follow the evidence, even if it leads to a different understanding of how the universe works?

Yep.

  1. If Jesus rose from the dead, would you become a Christian?

Nope, since Christianity is based on a disgusting god.  I might believe that the entity exists.

  1. If you wouldn’t become a Christian, why would you ever accept that he rose from the dead?

Evidence.

  1. Why do Atheists keep insisting faith is blind trust, when that’s not what Christians or the Bible say?

That’s what the bible says:  “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” – Hebrews 11  Why did you try to lie about that?

  1. Why do you want material evidence for an immaterial God?

Per Christians and the bible, this god has interacted with the physical on earth.  Where’s the evidence of this?

  1. Is there a purpose to life?

Yep, we each give our own life purpose.

  1. If there is, by what standard do you determine life has purpose?

My own.  No god needed, any of them.

  1. If not, what is the point of listening to this video?

Sorry didn’t see a video to watch.

  1. Where does morality come from?

Humans.  Theists can’t agree on what morals their god/s want.   They also change their morals as humans advance, insisting that they have a “new” interpretation of the same old nonsense.

  1. How do you determine what is right and what is wrong?

Based on myself and what makes civilization work.

  1. When a lion kills a cub from another pride because that’s what natural selection has raised it to do, is that morally acceptable?

For a lion it is.

  1. If evolution has put a sense of morality into us to help us survive, what makes our actions any better than any other animals actions?

They aren’t.  Again, theists don’t agree on morality so claims of an objective morality are just false claims.

  1. Is it morally acceptable for you kill a toddler because you can no longer financially support it?

Nope, but that is what makes our civilization work.

  1. Is it morally acceptable to kill a fetus in the womb because you couldn’t financially support it?

Yep, since a fetus isn’t a child.  Thanks for indicating you know the difference.

  1. Is it morally acceptable to kill a baby after it has been born?

Nope, unless it can’t live without pain and misery.   Anyone who wants to prolong pain is a monster.  Do you agree?

  1. How can you morally differentiate between a baby in the womb at 6 months and a baby born prematurely at 6 months?

You need a biology book too.  A fetus in the womb at six months has a chance thanks to modern medicine and would be treated exactly like the premature birth.  But nice try with the lies.

  1. Who was Jesus?

Perhaps a real person who was deluded.   However, this character is not the son of God, the one you claim to worship.  They aren’t the same being.  “Close enough” only counts for horseshoes and hand grenades.

  1. Why did his disciples die saying that he rose from the dead?

Because they wanted it to be true, however there isn’t much evidence for the apostles at all and we only have unknown authors writing decades after the supposed events, which we have no evidence for.  Why did the members of Heaven’s Gate say that they would be taken up by aliens and cut their genitalia off?

  1. Why does the Bible keep lining up with archaeology?

It doesn’t, but nice try with a lie.   None of the essential events of the bible have ever been supported by archaeological evidence.  No flood, no exodus, no sudden change in language, no fabulous palaces and temples, no battles of hundreds of thousands, no major earthquake/day darkening/dead wandering around Jerusalem on one certain day.

  1. Why do the three bloodiest regimes in History, (Mao’s China, Nazi Germany, and Stalin’s Russia) come from Atheistic ideas?

They don’t.   Hitler wrote voluminously about how he is following god’s will in persecuting the Jews in Mein Kampf.  Mao was acting like a megalomaniac as was Stalin.  That was the cause of their blood regimes.  Genocide isn’t an atheist idea, but we can sure see it is a theist one from the bible.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – my notes while I was watching the video

Here are my notes when I was watching my chat with Robert.  I hadn’t known that he was going to include his comentary but that’s fine.  These notes are long.  Unfortunately for Robert, I’ve learned to not trust Christians.  I’ve also put these remarks on youtube with the video.  I don’t know if they’ll show up.

It is true that there are Christian scientists. We also have Isaac Newton, an antitrinitarian Christian, who got us a lot of knowledge but also thought that alchemy works. It is true that Christians had to step away from the bible and its contradictions and false claims about reality and try a more metaphorical interpretation.

References to Christian things isn’t a turn off, because I know how Christians think, a lot of different kinds of Christians. Just saying what you believe doesn’t bother me or offend me. However, that doesn’t mean I won’t show how it fails.

Before the Big Bang, we aren’t sure of what was in existence. Currently, we aren’t sure if the BB is part of a series, etc. From what we can see, it seems that there couldn’t have been time. However, we have nothing that says that the laws of physics couldn’t have existed. We also don’t know if infinities really work or not. They are really weird. The idea of a universe that ends seems to go against what the bible claims as some magical event with people flying around, being raised from the dead and either being destroyed or eternally tortured.

I do love the science fiction analogy but it fails since it doesn’t have an omnipotent being, which could do anything by interpretation. Other than Contact, the book “The Hercules Text” is an even better version of that story IMO.

I do understand what transcendence means and so do most atheists. I do see evidence that it happens as claimed by Christians. As for a “nest of vipers”, Christianity is so self-contradictory, and Christians make up their versions in their own image that there is no such thing as true Christianity. And yep, I am critical of Christianity from every perspective. Christians have little choice to be hypocrites since few read the bible, and as above, have made up their religion in their images.

I’m as doubtful about Christianity in general, as each Christian doubts each other. We can see that schism in the current splitting of the Methodist church.

To claim that one doesn’t believe in god, but being a theist is rather silly and seems to be a little bit of a dodge. For a theist to be a theist, there is a god. For Christian, there is the one defined in the bible. Catholics do have other sources they claim just as valid. If there is no god, then there is no eden, then no need of Jesus. Repeating something out of rote if you have no idea it is true then it is pointless.

Properity gospel is silly but it is as Christian as any other Chrisitan claim. JC (Jesus Christ) says that any prayer, any ask, will be answered. Shall we disbelieve that?

People who are different in IQ do have trouble in communicating. However, neither are omnipotent. IF this god can’t make itself understood, then it isn’t omnipotent. Even a smart person can modify their words to help others understand them. This god doesn’t or can’t do that.

That a Christian wants to ignore Paul or at least part of what he says isn’t new. If something is just an “interpretation by Paul” and we can discount it in favor of something else, then why consider any of the bible to be some magical truth? Claims of “mystery” is a way to dodge problematic issues in religion.

“go with the interpretation which leads towards love”. Here is a problematic statement. Christians constantly tell me that they love me, Jesus loves me, God loves me, and there is no evidence of this. Even if you go with the definition of love in 1 Corinthians, this god fails it, and if Jesus is this god, Jesus fails it (though Jesus sometimes seems far more loving with his concern with the poor, the sick, etc). In my experience, for most Christians love doesn’t mean a concern for someone for which you’d do almost anything to make them happy and to protect them. Love for them is obedience to this god no matter what in the belief that this god will protect them and give them what they want.

It isn’t interesting that someone goes to 1 Corinthians and says that it’s a pretty good definition of “love”. In the bible, where we hear about love, it is what the bible defines “love” as. And this god fails that definition. It isn’t that this atheist thinks that the bible is right, I think that it is fairly close to what love is, not that it and it alone has the right definition of “love”. And no, it didn’t make me happy at all. I wanted nothing to do with any bible nonsense. As I said, it made other people happy, Christians who I am related to who I do care about. That’s what real love is.

Nope, no Christ needed to be loving. I am entirely disappointed with Robert that he tries to make that claim.

Christians do indeed disagree and contradict each other. It isn’t using this as a tool, it is a fact that Christians differ from each other in very basic ways. It is true that Christians make Christ into what they want, and no, he didn’t supposedly said anything new or special. We’ve had the “golden rule” for vastly longer than Christianity has existed. The ancient Chinese had it, the ancient Hebrews had it and the ancient Egyptians had it. Jesus had a different interpretation of this god nonsense just like every Christian has a different interpretation of what Christ/god supposedly said. Resurrection comes from latin sugere which means to rise or spring up. In- as a prefix means   insurrection means act of instance of revolting against an authority aka rebel. Of course, in- as a prefix is a pain in the ass. Does this mean “not rising”? Does it mean “on or in a rising”? that last seems more like it. In any case it means the same as rebel though I can understand it can have different connotations to people rather than the denotation that it gets in the dictionary (my English teacher taught me “D – dictionary, denotation; C – connotation, impliCation”

The claim that no one “really” knows what Christ is saying and that this is where “fundamentalism” comes from, is Christians trying to claim each other are wrong. If we can’t trust the words from the authors or the translators, then there is no reason to believe any of them. Jesus says to follow the laws in Exodus, Leviticus etc. Should they all be followed? Some?

The same holds true for the question “what is baptism?” Well, we get a pretty good idea from what John the “Baptist” did. However, as Robert says, there are many different version of what Christians think is baptism. In my area, there are the Amish which are a part of the anabaptist movement. What indeed is a “truly” baptized Christian? In Mark 16, it says that any baptized believer in Christ as savior can do magic aka miracles. Is this the reason that no Christian can since none of them were “really” baptized?

Being a “manager” doesn’t help much with facts especially when you have a baseless claim that something that has no evidence is “good” for them. It also doesn’t work when a manager isn’t omniscient and this god supposedly is. There is no evidence that this god can create anything much less a “clockwork mechanism”. This is the argument that this god didn’t want to create something perfect because it wanted “free will”. As those who have read my blog before, free will never comes up in the bible. We have miracles which is this god interfering with human actions. As soon as it interferes, there is no free will. We also have very definite times where this god removes free will: killing a child for the actions of its parents, forcing the Egyptians to give up their wealth to the Israelites, hardening Pharoah’s heart so it can show off, etc.

 

This god pushes people constantly in the bible. Again, what the bible says and what a Christian wants is different. If things that are perfect are “dead”, then that doesn’t give much hope for heaven.

In regards to abortion, this is another example of love as obedience.

There is no evidence that this god is “infinite”. So one can escape. It isn’t nihilistic to be good with the universe ending. Being accepting of death isn’t nihilism. Death is part of life. I get out of the way of someone new. I would miss being alive and I don’t want anyone to be sad I was gone. Not wanting this god or this heaven isn’t nihilism.

“The bible isn’t the message”.   There is no evidence that the “message” is anything different than the bible or that it is “bigger” than the bible. As much as Quakers and Catholics want to pretend otherwise, this is where they started. That they have changed their minds and declared they have some new truth is nothing new; all Christians reinvent their religion in their own image.  There is nothing to show that this god started the message and the universe is around 13 billion years old (we keep refining that number with new information but it is around that old per all the evidence we have) not “3 trillion years old”. Not even remotely.

There is nothing to show that the Christian claims are evolving across time. That is a modern Christian claim. And again, there is no reason for this god for not giving the absolute truth. It is materially false when the bible makes claims that aren’t true. That we are still looking at the universe and though we though it was one way e.g. “steady state” vs big bang, no one said that this was a magical divinely given “truth”. Christians claims truths and then a generation later those supposed truths change, often in response to very human changes in morality or in response to scientific discoveries. Scientists don’t say “God told me this is the truth.”

The BBT doesn’t say that the universe is expanding from a “central point”. The BBT is far more bizarre than that.

We do find and refine what we think is true. The claims of Christians shouldn’t have to do that.  If this god is limited by humans, it isn’t much of a god, especially when Christians claim that this god damns people for not getting things “right”.

“who says what it says and which bible” This is in response to me pointing out what the bible says. Chrsitians all claim that they and they alone know what it “really” says. And, since this is the case, there is some truth in saying “who says what it says”. Christians make that up as they go along, with no more evidence than the next Christian who disagrees with them, “love” not withstanding. If the translation makes a difference, then why does it? Can this god do nothing about that? Why does this god allow “wrong” translations and then damns people who don’t know any better?

Robert says he is a universal salvationist which essentially means that everyone will have a chance at accepting this god and some thing that we will all agree with them that this god is what they say. Robert might not agree with this exactly but this is what I’m going with since the ‘net seems to think this is what it means.   As I noted, this is very much not what the bible says or what most Christians believe. He believes that eventually that I or everyone who isn’t Christian will “eventually lose” and we will have to accept this god’s message. No matter what it is. According to Robert, the only way to avoid the heat death of the universe is to accept his god. If this god is what is presented in the bible, I don’t want it or its afterlife. I have better morals than that and as it stands this heaven can’t seem to exist since it by being perfect is “dead”.

It didn’t surprise me much to have Robert think that C.S. Lewis’ idea of hell in “The Last Divorce” to be preferable to the fire and worms that the bible presents. However, C.S. Lewis presents a hell where Christians forget those they loved. A good review of this book is here. In short form, C.S blames the non-Christian, in my opinion blaming the victim. Honest doubt is claimed to be nothing more than intellectual laziness and selfishness, if one dares to disagree with the author. Lewis also ignores the bible and has that those in hell can leave by choice. The bible never says this and the church fathers never say this either; heck, they claim that unbaptized children are damned because they dare to be born with the nonsense of “original sin”. Then as we know, the RCC invented purgatory since such nonsense seemed too cruel.

Lewis’ argument is that people have to submit, again showing what so many Christians claim as “love” to be nothing more than obedience needed by their god. When a Christians relies on false claims like this “human being can’t make one another happy for long” and “You cannot love a fellow-creature fully until you love God” then we are in classic cult territory.

“Folk beliefs”, “infantile babyfied ways of looking at heaven and hell”.   This appears to be what a lot of atheists call “sophisticated theology”. That link leads to rationalwiki’s entry on it which describes how Christians are sure that other Christians aren’t quite getting Christianity “right”, when they are taking the bible at its word. In this, hell isn’t this god daming people to fire and worms, it is the non-believer choosing not to agree with the believer. It’s not their or their god’s fault that they are unbelievable.

“It is essentially pagan to think of God as Odin…”   This is very similar to arguments made by people like Karen Armstrong and Tillich that somehow their god is “different” than everyone else’s god, that it is the “ground of being” and can’t be held to human description so it gets vaguer and vaguer in definition. This vague entity is very hard to reconcile some god that has a blood sacrifice to “save” people.

People that are happy in believing nonsense is most humans: Muslims, Hindus, Christians that Robert doesn’t agree with, etc. That doesn’t mean that any of their beliefs are true. One’s personal beliefs aren’t true and cognitive science accepts this. Cognitive science doesn’t say that Christianity, or any religion, is true.

“It’s okay to take the bible literally.” One would think a Christian would say this since they all take some part of it literally. It just depends on the Christian what parts. And then they declare that those Christians who don’t agree with them aren’t “really” Christians. Robert wants people to take the bible morally, literally, allegorically and what I think he is saying “anagogical” which means “a mystical or spiritual interpretation” of statements and events. Per the wiki entry on “anagogue” this is some kind of a allegory that isn’t a “simple” allegory”, it is a divine revelation.

In that Christians all make claims of how their god (or the holy spirit) tells them what something “really” meant, aka knowing anagogically, there is no reason to think one Christian has a better interpretation than another.

“Religion is like science”. No it isn’t. I don’t say that I believe in science just because it can be wrong or improved. Science does come to truth across time. We are limited humans. It is not true in religion since every religion claims it has the truth and that what it interprets Jesus/God as wanting as the “truth”. What happens is that those supposed truths, declared strongly by Christians, change to another “truth” by Christians who disagree. Science is rarely declared as some immutable truth, and shouldn’t be declared that since we know things can change when we find something new. Religions, such as Chrisitanity, depend on declaring dogmatic “truth” and then they often proceed to kill each over these supposed “truths”. Few theists ever admit that they doubt what they claim is true. If they didn’t think it was true, they wouldn’t believe it.

Science isn’t about “feeling” the truth; its about facts. All Christians claim that their version of Christ is “truth” itself. All claim that Christ manifests in them and again we have drastically conflicting messages from supposedly this “Christ”.

“when there is no ultimate, infinite goodness that exists apart from us, we have removed the fixed point toward which we can aspire.” This is an argument that this god is some moral or ultimate ideal. Most Christians try this. This assumes that somehow we need this god to get better. There is no evidence for this at all. Humans have gotten morally better (subjectively of course) and it is the religions that have constantly changed their gods to catch up. Our imaginations can always make us better. Robert wants to claim we can’t get “infinitely better without his god, but there is again no reason to think his god exists or that it is infinite or better than humans. Infinities are again, weird things, and there is no reason to think that there is an “infinite” better-ness. That idea is attached to the cosmological argument that there has to be some “perfect” being that for some reason has to make the universe, under the assumption that existence is “better” than non-existence. Every religion says that only it gets you “infinitely” better, a claim with no evidence for it at all.

Newton did come up with physics and Newtonian physics works. It still works and we did need quantum mechanics. Einstein didn’t accept quantum physics. Newton’s laws work and are true, quantum laws are true, and we don’t *yet* know how they interact or if they do. We may never know it. That makes neither untrue; this is a false dichotomy argument. Religion claims an ultimate truth and it can’t show it.

Humans are bad at truth and the scientific method helps us in finding it. What we’ve found is no “third party”, and as it stands each religion claims that they and they alone have that third party that agrees with them, with no evidence again. That we don’t need a third party confounds many theists since their world depends on a presupposition that we do. That presupposition comes from the human need to think that intelligent agency is behind everything. The fact is that it isn’t.

There is no evidence for some “far distant truth” from some god. We do rely on us humans. No god can be shown to have done anything and humans reach for the stars on their own. This religion has done its best to squash questioning, killing those who questioned like Giordano Bruno, to keep us from the stars.

That I’ve stopped being afraid of this god or any god I can achieve much. I’ve decided not to believe in a god that limits humans, that punishes humans for questioning. My subjective morality allows me to move forward. Robert, though he is a very nice Christian, does try to claim he has a truth. Searching for a truth doesn’t involve saying “I *know* that “x” is true” which is what he and I discussed on his blog in the comments. Every Christian says that every other Christian isn’t getting the right answer.

It’ll be billions of years until an “end”, but that isn’t usually the end that most Christians are predicting. They have an end where this god comes back, and judges people. That isn’t the heat death of the universe which doesn’t care about anything.

Christianity would be rather bizarre with me in it, but I appreciate the thought. Christians, imo, are terrified. One happy atheist shows that the claims of Christianity aren’t true. Christianity claims a truth and that it is “greater” than everything else.

The bible is indeed violent just like Pulp Fiction the movie. I just don’t get the analogy Robert uses. This bible has that this god intentionally assigns innocents to the worst fate ever. You can try to ignore that part of the bible but it is still there. No free will in Chrisitanity at all

Those of you who don’t know Pern, it’s a science fiction, kinda fantasy series of books with dragons on an alien plant with the descendants of colonists. You can read about it here.

But at least we agree with Game of Thrones and George R. R. Martin. 😊