Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Dear theist, you need to up your game.

Following some links, I found this: http://areasonablefaithdotme.wordpress.com/2013/01/03/dear-atheist/ 

Cute little guy isn't he? Microsoft clip art.

Cute little guy isn’t he?
Microsoft clip art.

I’ve commented on it but since many Christians will not allow comments that address their claims to appear on their blogs (so much for the discussion they claim they want), I figured that I’d reproduce Caroline’s entire post here and my response.  She uses a lot of the typical Christian claims that fail badly.  News flash, she has responded.  Thank you, Caroline.   

Why do you not believe? Why do you allow your senses to rule instead of your sense? Your eyes don’t see God, your ears don’t hear him, nor would your outstretched fingers find his form. But if God doesn’t exist, how is it that you do? If God doesn’t exist, why is there something rather than nothing?

Why do you not believe? You clamor for justice and robe yourself in rights. But your appeals for fairness and freedom carry no weight without a transcendent standard. Who are you to tell me what’s right and wrong? Are you my judge? Are you my god?

Why do you not believe? You gaze out into the night sky and your immaterial thoughts carry you deep into space. You reason an endless expanse and discern a limited comprehension. Is it not reasonable to conclude that a limitless being exists who knows something you can’t?

God is horrid, you say, if he even exists. Just look at what his supposed Word says. He’s capricious and cruel, sadistic and sullen. Are you his judge? Do you really believe a creature who can’t even explain his own existence, much less create another like him, who is beset with badness, imperfect in piety, negligible in knowledge, can call to account the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Maker of all that is? Can expect to fully comprehend his ways?

And what’s that about anyway? How can you argue against God’s character and actions if you don’t even believe he exists? You fashion an image of what God would look like if you were him, and then cast off as unbecoming or unreal (one or the other…it can’t be both) a God that doesn’t line up with your image, in essence declaring yourself god by decreeing everyone else an imposter. You elevate the scientific method as the supreme diviner of truth, but skip over the observation of evidence and go right to the conclusion based on your biased preconceptions and your materialistic worldview that precludes any consideration of the supernatural.

Dear atheist…what if you’re wrong? What if it’s true that the God of the Bible does exist and your sin will separate you from him and happiness forever if you never receive his provision for your salvation? What if he is standing ready right now to forgive your sins and seal you for redemption if you will only turn to him and believe?

What if you never believe?

**************************************

Wow, Caroline. I found you on Mike’s blog and followed your link to your post that seemed to be in answer to atheist’ questions about your claims.

I would advise you to read some more atheist books and blogs.  Your post uses some of the weakest excuses of theists.  Let me demonstrate.  

I could write your first paragraph easily and be of any other religion since most, if not all religions make the same claims:  Why don’t you believe in say, Tezcatlipoca?  Why do you allow your senses to rule instead of your sense? Your eyes don’t see Tezcatlipoca, your ears don’t hear him, nor would your outstretched fingers find his form. But if Tezcatlipoca doesn’t exist, how is it that you do? If Tezcatlipoca doesn’t exist, why is there something rather than nothing?

You claim that humans need a creator.  So, why doesn’t your god?  Ah yes, because you use special pleading, where you want rules to apply to everything but your one thing that can’t fit.  

You claim there must be a transcendent standard.  Well, again, why not Tezcatlipoca as a standard?  And for someone who claims that their religion is some kind of standard, it’s pretty amusing when Christians have changed their minds on what this god of theirs really wants. Once upon a time, Christians claimed that inter-racial marriage was against their god.  Some still do but many do not.  Some claim that homosexual marriage is against their god, and again, some still do but some do not.  All claim that their god has told them this, and all of them have no more proof than the next.  I judge another human with no problem, and judge them against the laws that make civilization work.  You try to tell others what is right and wrong and you try to claim that there is your imaginary friend that backs you up.  Sorry, that’s just sill and transparently just a human trying to have power over others.   

You try to claim that we should simple believe in your god because we can see the universe.  Surprise! Every other religion makes the same claim.  So, Caroline, just how can you show me it was your god that did this? Why not good ol’ Tez?  Can you show me why there needs to be a creator at all?  No, it is not reasonable to think that the Great Arkleseizure created the universe.  That’s called the ontological argument, and nothing makes it necessary.  Take a moment to look at the Wikipedia “existence of god” article and see all of the arguments and how they fail. 

I have no problem in judging God just like I have no problem judging Darth Vader.  You try to claim that humans can’t explain their own existence should not try to judge, and therefore, understand god.  I always have to laugh at this because Christians sure love to claim they understand god when convenient but oooh, if they get a hard question, they go right to claiming this god is all mysterious.  What happens when humans can explain their existence, Caroline?  Your argument that since we’re so bad we can’t judge your god is hilarious when you insist this god made us exactly like that.  That’s called trying to have your cake and eat it too. Can humans or can’t they understand god?  

Your god is a classic primitive god, very human, just more powerful.  Yep, it’s ignorant, jealous, hateful, arrogant, fearful, etc, just like the gods of other ancient peoples.  You try to claim that since I don’t believe in god why how can I argue against his character. Again, just like saying Darth Vader is an evil character.  Really, Caroline, that’s the best you have?  I have no need of fashioning an image of this god, I have a whole book supposedly all about him, right?  Or is your bible nonsense and wrong about this god?  And yes, dear Caroline, things can be both unbecoming and unreal.  

I would suggest that if you don’t like the scientific method so much, then you do stop using it. Can’t have you being a hypocrite, right?  No modern medicine, no computer, no modern food plants and animals, etc.  You claim that there is evidence for your god but you provide no evidence whatsoever, just the usual excuses of *any* theist of *any* religion.

Oh and then we finish up with Pascal’s Wager.  Look that up too.  Dear Caroline…what if you’re wrong? What if it’s true that Tezcatlipoca does exist and your sin will separate you from him and happiness forever if you never receive his provision for your salvation? What if he is standing ready right now to forgive your sins and seal you for redemption if you will only turn to him and believe?

What if you never believe? Gasp! 😀

Caroline, you have no evidence that your religion is the right one to choose. You believe in the Christian God because you happened to be born in a country where Christianity is popular.  If you were born in Iran, there’s nothing to say you wouldn’t be a Muslim, or if in India, a Hindu or a animist in a country in Africa.  You only think your religion is the only possible true one because you have been taught that by people you trust and you have kept yourself willfully ignorant about any other possibility.  I was a Christian (let me guess, you’ll claim I never way since I ceased. That’s the no true Scotsman fallacy.), I have researched many religions and I have always come up with the same answer. No gods.  Present evidence, not the nonsense you have posted, and then we might talk.

PS:  It’s January 8 now and still no response to my post from Caroline and she hasn’t posted my comment to her blog even though she’s allowed others.  For all of the questions she asked, one can see that she is not not looking for any answers at all. That’s quite deceitful.  Willful ignorance is a potent force to keep yourself feeling superior with little effort on your part.

PPS: She has responded.  She’s showing spunk but alas, she’s claimed I’m not “interested in debate”.  That’s so cute when Christians claim that they are psychic!  And so typical.  Look for a new post addressing her in a bit.

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9 responses to “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Dear theist, you need to up your game.

  1. Friend you definitely have covered most bases but this fine lady is claiming we have created a caricature of a god to attack! How crazy, the bible says this god is all loving and then he commands murder, how does she explain that? Is that fine with her?
    This god punishes man for knowing, who would want to have an ignorant and idiot for a friend leave alone a child?

    • at the root of it, it has to be fine with her. most Christians have invested their self-worth in their religion and to leave it is very hard. And no caricature, all happily supported with bible verses if she wants to go that route.

  2. I smiled from beginning to end of this… Brilliant!

    I popped over to Carolines blog and left this message for her, but i doubt it’ll ever be displayed:

    “why is there something rather than nothing…”
    Well, that’s quite easy to explain if you understand quantum field theory and the nature of energy. Do you?

  3. Pingback: Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Dear Theist, part 2 | Club Schadenfreude

  4. Pingback: Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Dear theist, part 4 Suprise! | Club Schadenfreude

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