Generally, I wouldn’t go to the bother of this, but Caroline is a good example of theist that atheist often encounter. Her posts cover most attitudes and claims the Christian who thinks that they are an excellent defender of the faith. My first post addressing Caroline’s questions to atheists is here.
I have been able to have some comments posted on Caroline’s blog and for that I thank her a lot. She has proven herself to be less of a coward than I might have thought. I will reserve judgement for the rest of that determination when I see if she will answer questions put to here. This comment is one that I posted before her reply to me in italics below: “It [pascal’s wager] is quite lame. It assumes that you have the right god. Caroline, please do tell us how you know the right god is yours.For someone who has a post of questions, I see my answers are rather scary, yes?” Again, from her response, we see that she seems to be reluctant to answer questions posed to her.
My, my…somebody’s itchin’ to get into it. Which is exactly why I have chosen not to approve your comments. It seems apparent to me that you are not interested in a debate but a fight instead, and I want my blog to be nonviolent. You’re not seeking the truth but looking for opportunities to ridicule.
Reasonable people can debate the existence of God without any of that. If you’d like to try respect and consideration, I will engage you. Please begin with an explanation of how you can get something from nothing.
You reply and then I see that my post is still not up. Happily, I took the precaution to put it on my own blog. For you to try to claim that I’m not interested in debate, you have gone above and beyond to refuse it. You want to ask questions but when someone answers and the answers are not to your liking, you try to hide them. You really couldn’t prove my point better, Caroline. You are not looking for an honest answer from an atheist that you could consider and rebut. You simply want a soapbox, where you ignore how your claims are wrong. I do also like how you have decided that you are psychic! I am sorry, Caroline, but I am indeed looking for the truth, but I also look to educate Christians who make claims that are not true. I am not looking to ridicule, so your claims about me are *lies* about me. That’s false witnessing. But in case you do want to point out just where you thought I was ridiculing you, I invite you to do so on my copy of my post to your blog if you don’t want to here. I invite you to do so since I don’t always want to be ridiculing Christians. I have taken great pleasure in ridiculing Christians and I will continue to do so, however, my post to you wasn’t ridicule at all, Caroline. I answered *your* questions, Caroline. I pointed out how they are wrong in their assumptions. You supposedly wanted this by posting what you did. I hope you stick by that.
It is amusing to see you claim that you want your blog to be non-violent. I’d certainly want a blog to be non-violent too, but seeing how debate isn’t violent at all, your crocodile tears are misplaced. I have frequently seen Christians claim that atheists are not respectful or considerate and all they mean is that they simply don’t like when atheists dare to tell them they are wrong and then dare to request that the theist actually engage in debate, putting up their arguments and evidence for their god. It is a very convenient excuse to claim someone is disrespectful or inconsiderate so I am asking you to point out which parts offended you so much. If I was, I will be happy to acknowledge it. At its base, my post is my reasons for coming to a negative that your god exists and pointing out how your arguments are those used by people you don’t believe either. Please tell me why you shouldn’t be just as afraid for your soul as I am for mine, how do you know your god is real? Can you answer that, Caroline?
As for how one can get something from nothing, that is a physics question. It is also a question that I can also pose to you. Where did your god come from, Caroline, how can *you* get something from nothing? You have no trouble in accepting this premise for your god, but you are not willing to accept that for anything else? Why? Quantum mechanics is a set of theories that appear to be the best description we have for the world since their predictions have proven true and accurate, there are equations that say that from “nothing”, there was a fluctuation in that nothing, and this created something. “Nothing” isn’t exactly like how I guess you think of it. To a physicist, nothing has fields, quantum particles etc in it. With science being able to detect more and more, things get clarified. Once “nothing” was what we couldn’t see with our eyes, now it’s different because we know better.
Now, I’m sure you will say that it’s “just a theory”, like many Christians try to do when dismissing other thing that disagree with their mythology, like evolution. However, this theory allows you to have computers, have CAT scans, etc. If you benefit from those, it does make it a little ridiculous that you argue against such things. Those come from the same science that the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle (called it unpredicablity theory before) theory come from. It doesn’t work when you try to ignore parts of science you don’t like but have no problem with the parts you do, that make you comfy. Quantum mechanics isn’t a hypothesis, which is an idea that comes from observation; it is what we have predicted and *then* observed and then used in our techology. The book, “A universe from nothing” by Lawrence Krauss can go into much more detail. I have a copy in my local library, I’m sure you probably can find it in yours or can get it by interlibrary loan. It works, even if you don’t want to believe it or have trouble understanding it. I have trouble understanding it too. But to say that “it can’t work that way because I don’t understand/want to believe”, well, that refusal to believe because *you* can’t comprehend it is called the argument from personal incredulity or the argument from ignorance. We haven’t figured out everything yet, that’s is for sure. That doesn’t say we won’t. The longer we go, the more we know, and the result has been your god being pushed into the quickly diminishing gaps. Most modern people no longer think that some god or demons cause disease, we don’t think thunder is the sound of Thor throwing his hammer, etc.
I hope this answered your question. I hope you will answer mine.
13 thoughts on “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Dear Theist, part 2”
Club, Caroline doesn’t want to hear about Quantum Field Theory, but i’ll give ONE MILLION points for trying!
of course she doesn’t. It is a common Christian tactic to try to go “neener, neener, you can’t explain this so I don’t have to listen”. Oh well, creating posts like this sharpen my skills, and my typing gets faster and faster 🙂
In that case, bump it up to TWO MILLION points! 😉
I have considered writing similar posts. There seems to be a commonality among Christians where they say one thing, but practice another (i.e. encourage criticism, etc.). I commend your attempts, but fear they are for nothing. Most theists are unconcerned with questioning; if they were, they’d likely be atheists. Well done, I’ll be following your blog moving forward.
Thanks, RL. On the surface, it does feel like bashing one’s head into a brick wall when it comes to confronting theists who are like Caroline. However, I find that continuous confrontation and education is necessary, though often tedious and aggravating. To remain silent in the face of their deceit and nonsense only allows them to continue their bogus claims. Show ing how they are not the good people that they claim to be, we can start to show that being religious does not mean being good.
atheist, muslims,buddhist or non religious people are not our enemies as Christians. So when we engage in discussions where we both want to prove who is right or wrong is unnecessary. Love should be the first thing that we speak. I have an atheist friend. I don’t love her because of her religion, i love her because of who she is. It is true that we Christians are Xtians by word of mouth. We do not Obey Gods word but we are quick to defend Christianity. We say we Love God but the bible says, we show our love for God by obeying his every word. By making his word the standard for life. As for demons causing sickness. You want proof. watch http://www.emmanuel.tv there is your proof. Remain blessed in 2013. Let Love Lead.
but don’t you think making his word the standard of life, there will be none left after we are done stoning those working on sabbath, killing children for disobedience, killing whole tribes for worshiping a different god and so on?
I disagree Linda. Your friend is an atheist, she has no religion. Atheism is not a religion, no matter how hard theists try to redefine the word. It is a lack of belief in god/gods. Religion is worship of a supernatural deity. Trying to conflate the two is bizaare, and is usually done in some attempt to claim that one should “teach the controversy”. If you can’t be honest enough to acknowledge that atheism isn’t a religion, then I wonder what else you are intentionally deceitful about.
I find love a great thing but I do not love things blindly. And per your bible, your god doesn’t even do this, no matter the claims of “unconditional love”. I have no need or duty to love someone who does not love me or wishes me ill like all Chritians must do with their belief in “punishment” if one doesn’t believe in their god. I love my parents who are Christians, and definitely not for them being that. So, religion is essentially useless in determining who to love for both of us. But for many Christians, and Christians just as “real” as you are, religion does determine love. And real love, not some vague claim that requires nothing from the Christian. Love is hard work. Heinlein has a great definition of love: “Love is the condition in which the happiness of another person is essential to your own.”
As above I noted that you and others are Christians. You seem to think, like many Christians, that you are the only TrueChristiantm, that those “others” are less than you since you don’t agree with them. Well, Linda, please show me how I can tell who the true ones are, because Christians don’t agree on what they believe in and what they think their god wants from them. I’ve offered many times to Christians to have a altar contest like Elijah’s in the bible, to show who can get God to respond to them, and of course none have responded. You claim that you need to show your love of god by obeying his every word. So, do you eat shrimp? Kill people who work on the Sabbath? And which Sabbath do you follow? Have you abandoned your family (or killed them) if they don’t agree with you? All of those things are what your god has set down as his words and his laws.
Your link is simply hilarious. Ooooooh, demons cause bedwetting! Nope, not one bit of actual evidence, just lots of hearsay and baseless claims. These “testimonies” also show how pathetically selfish and arrogant so many Christians are. Oh, they are ever-so special to get help from this god, but golly, if someone doesn’t get a prayer answered, why they must have prayed “wrong” or been not a TrueChristiantm. Nothing like thinking you are a special snowflake. If you think this is “proof”, you are definitely one person I would never want on a jury if you are so easily duped. You are also another Christian who wants me to believe their baseless nonsense but when shown the claims of miracles by another god, would dismiss them in an instant, or claim that it was really “demons”. Your willful ignorance keeps your faith strong, and that’s sad that you need lies to do that.
“nothing”, there was a fluctuation in that nothing,”
Atheists have about as much understand re: the difference between something and nothing as they do re: life and non life.
Thesauros, if you wish to make such claims, please do give us details. Tell me exactly how do atheists fail on understanding physics and “life and non-life” aka biology? You see, thesauros, theists often make such claims that others are somehow ignorant but are too ignorant themselves of physics and biology to actually tell us how we supposedly fail. You rely on vague claims that are nothing more than lies. And, as a former Christian, I know how much your god supposedly hates lies and liars, even those told by Christians “for” this god (Romans 3). I am well-versed in geology, biology and have a pretty good foundation in physics. I will be more than happy to address your concerns.
Boss, this is quite a lovely post.
By the end of the week I foresee Caroline’s letter being changed to dear theists, why are we so ignorant and so deluded? Why do we refuse to read and learn whereas all this information is looking at us.
I have been thinking about this question a little more, since matter & energy can’t be created, how would Caroline explain her god creating mass. And while at it, please god works in mysterious ways is not one of the responses.
Thanks, makagutu. It’ll be a “miracle” : ) if Caroline actually responds to my post. From my experience, this is the end game. A theist thinks they have a question that *no atheist* will ever be able to answer. When an answer is given, the likely responses are: 1. Ignoring the post, 2. claiming that the proffered answer is not “right” but the theist will be unable to show what they think the “correct” answer is, 3. a quick tour into solipsism, where the theist declares that no one can know anything “for sure”. And there are more but these are the first three that come to mind.