Hello my subscribers. I received a very long comment on someone else’s blog and wanted to take the time, and space, to respond to a Christian who is sure I am wrong and that they are the OneTrueChristian. So, this is a rehash of much of the same. This is just to give our OneTrueChristian some place to chat with me. I’ll soon return to the regularly scheduled programing.
I certainly do say that there is little evidence that supports the common Christian claim that their god wants free will. It’s true and I have supported my position. I have no reason to believe in the baseless claims of Christians. It does not surprise me at all that you cannot cite any evidence for your position. Again, LIL, your bible does not say that it is my choice to not believe in this god, it says that it is this god’s choice that I cannot. It seems that you are also a Christian who is uncomfortable with the idea of hell, with your nice sanitized version “separation from god”. It is unsurprising that you create your religion to reflect you own hatreds and desires. You are most likely a decent person who doesn’t like the idea of hell, so have invented something else.
The fact that we are talking about the myth of Christianity is not evidence that your religion is true; that is quite the wishful thinking. It seems that you also seem to think that only Christians are good, with your claims about human nature. That’s rather amusing since one can just look around and see that your claim is utterly false. Humans are decent and humane in spite of religion. Happily, we can talk about religion in the US and on the internet and not be threatened by death from theists because the death grip of religion is receding in the world. Unfortunately, there are plenty of theists who still want such harm to happen to people who do not believe in their particular imaginary friends.
I am sorry if a Christian needs to be told chapter *and* verse of their own supposed holy book. I will be sure to mention both in the future. Again, some Christians claim that their god is love, and the verses in 1 Corinthians defines love, a definition that your god fails. If love is not jealous e.g. “does not envy”, then if this god is jealous, it is not love. That is a very simple if-then construct, which someone who claims to use logic should be able to understand. If human were created for the sole purpose of “unity” with this god, why did it go through the nonsense of the “fall”, and just take everyone that it made to love it to heaven and live happily ever after? Again, we have no evidence at all that your god wants free will. I am not a parent but I am a spouse. I would indeed be jealous, but no one is calling me pure love as Christians claim about their god. Christians always have a problem when they make the mistake to try to compare us puny humans with their supposedly omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent god.
You have asked me to show evidence that your god deceives. I have your bible, is that enough? I have read the bible as a Christian, as I was losing my faith and as an atheist. I did not depend on some pastor or priest to tell me what they wanted me to hear out of it, and thus know it far better than most Christians do. 2 Thessalonians 2:11, Ezekiel 14:9, 2 Chronicles 18: 18-22. You ask me if I know God’s hidden agenda. No, I do not. Many Christians love to claim that everything can be excused if they pretend that this god has some mysterious “plan”. You cannot show that your god exists, much less that it has a plan that excuse harm that happens to people. Indeed, if your god is omnipotent, it would not need to cause harm to people if it can do anything. If the typical Christian claim of heaven is true, then harmful acts are not needed at all for human existence. God is indeed easily angered. This god murders a man for touching his magic box. This god throws A&E out of Eden because of a single mistake that this god knew would happen because it made A&E that way. God murders men women and children for the actions of a man that it is mind controlling. God supposedly causes all mankind to speak different languages because it is afraid of them for building one tall building. God vanishes for an unknown but long period of time, people forget about it and then it has a hissy fit and kills nearly everything on earth. God kills Anaias and Sapphira for not forking over enough money. You claim that this god reaches out to humanity, and you cannot show any evidence it exists at all.
You have claimed that your scripture contradicts the statement that your god keeps accounts of all wrongs. Hmmmm, really? Revelation 20: 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.” Your quote of Hebrews is from Jeremiah 31: 31-34, which mentions a messiah and disagrees with the claims of your supposed messiah by saying that there is no original sin, since everyone will be responsible for only their own sins, no one else’s. Both the verses from Jeremiah and Isaiah contradict the verses from Revelation. Now, which shall we believe? Are there or are there not records of what people have done? We have no evidence that this god exists, much less “sticks with” anyone.
LIL, you seem to be one of those Christians who must pretend that no one but them can define evil and wish to pretend you have some moral absolute in a god that has no evidence for its existence. Christians can’t agree on what their god finds good or evil, so I have no reason to believe you. Again, you seem to think that only Christians of your type can be good. And again, reality shows that to be false. I can define evil easily. It is that which harms for no reason; it is that which takes away freedom for no reason. It is attempting to remove the ability of people to make educated choices by lying to them. Your god says it is responsible for evil in your bible, LIL. Did you miss that verse too? Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Now, the typical thing is for the Christian who doesn’t know Hebrew to claim that it really isn’t “evil” but this post does a good job at showing why it does: http://www.daylightatheism.org/page/125 I would also point out that you god has no problem in working with evil. In Revelation 21, your god intentionally allows evil e.g. the beast to return *after* your god kills everyone who doesn’t believe in it, and allows it to corrupt more people. You do quote Job, which brings up another time that your god does evil, by intentionally allowing its supposed archenemy to murder Job’s family. In the verse from Job, it is excuses given for this god. It is the circular argument that so many Christians use, that anything that this god commands is somehow good, just because it is said by god.
I read and understand the bible quite well, thank you. Each Christian wants to pretend that only he understands it correctly and as always, has no more evidence of this than the next Christian who says he’s wrong. You accuse me of “subjective analysis”. Please do point this out, and contrast it with what you do.
You may have been an atheist and anti-theist. So? I do wonder, what made you convert to Christianity, and not, say, Islam or Hinduism? You quote Ephesians 4:8 but mean 4:18. That’s a nice set of false claims by Paul about anyone who disagrees with him. I always wonder about people like him who intentionally bear false witness about others. It is nice to see hardening of hearts, since that’s what your god does so well (Exodus). Again, your bible says that it is not our choice to worship this god but its whim to allow some people to understand and some to not (Romans 9).
Ah, it was about time for the usual claim from a Christian that no one but him was ever a TrueChristian. The verse from 1 John 2 is the usual attempt at trying to claim that the only true Christians remain Christians. Quite a nice circular argument. Now, how does one figure out who are the TrueChristians? Shall we take JC at his word that anyone who believes in him and is baptized will be able to do miracles just like him (Mark 16)? Can you do these things, LIL? I was a Christian, LIL, just like you and that appears to scare you a lot. Alas, you are not telling the truth about your bible, LIL. It does indeed say that your god hardened the pharoah’s heart and did so for no better reason than to show off: Exodus 10:1-2. You see, I read the book of Exodus and detailed every instance that mentioned hardening, and surprise, your god did it all. You can read my dissection of it here: https://clubschadenfreude.com/2014/12/09/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-let-my-people-go-for-a-long-weekend-the-peculiar-story-of-the-exodus-part-1/
One can see that you are like a lot of pastors and priests who pick and choose what to say about the bible, figuring no one will actually read it. So you have either intentionally misrepresented your bible or you have shown you are ignorant in what it actually says. This nonsense from Exodus is repeated in Romans 9, the claim that no one has free will. God certainly supposedly used the pharaoh for his own purpose and we see repeatedly that this character was going to relent repeatedly if not for this god’s interference. It’s great to see you make up lies about others to excuse your inability to discuss the issues at hand. My eyes do not glaze over. You ignore the problem of your god’s supposed miracles as interference in free will. How not surprising. It’s great to see you offer the usual Christian claim that the creator can do anything he wants with his creation. The greed and selfishness in that claim is always great. Anyone can object if you are a selfish destructive jackass. I can certainly do so to your god. Christians seem to think that they can bluster and brag about their powerful imaginary friend and other people will be afraid. I’m no more afraid of your god than I am of the boogeyman.
I see that you are trying to redefine “free will”. A common Christian tactic is to try to redefine words when they are losing the debate. That rather transparent nonsense only works if someone falls for it. No, LIL, it is removing free will when a god makes you do something that you would not have. If this god interferes with my actions, my free will is being taken away. If I cannot do what I wish because a something prevents me by its omnipotent act, I have no free will. Free will is indeed the ability to make choices freely, and the people who supposedly were building the tower could not do what they wanted. This god interfered. Your god did indeed act on their actions and prevented them, thus preventing the ability to make choices freely. Again, yes there can be actions and consequences. Having consequences imposed by an omnipotent deity means no free will, because there would be no consequences otherwise.
I again see that you are ignorant about your own bible, or you have chosen to play ignorant in a bit to delay the inevitable. You claim that there are no verses about your god and its son/self saying that parables are used to prevent some people from ever believing, an intentional act to prevent them from making an informed decision on their own. You also use yet one more classic Christian claim of “context” which is very funny since you claim that there are no verses saying such things in the first place. Which is it, LIL, no verses or verses that you want to claim I have the context wrong and that you will “correct” my supposed misconceptions? Again, your claims of logic and reason are belied by your own actions. And more claims that anyone who doesn’t agree with you isn’t a TrueChristian. Liberal Christians are just as Christian as you, LIL, unless you do want to show me that you are the only TrueChristian. How do you propose to do that? As for the verses? Matthew 13:10-17, Mark 4:10-20, Luke 8:10-15 If you read the bible, it says that the secret has been given to certain people and not others, thus it is not by learning about this religion but by being given certain things by the whim of a supposedly omnipotent being. Now, please do your best in “correcting” my misconceptions, and do take time to show how your version is the only right one. And which definition of “liberal”, LIL? It has more than one. Generous? Not literal? Not bound by authoritarianism and tradition?
When I mentioned that Adam and Eve and that your god either intentionally allowed its supposed archenemy into the garden or was too stupid and it was there without this omniscient being knowing about it, you claim that I am somehow complaining that there is no free will and that there was a choice. No, LIL, I am showing that your religion is full of contradictions and your god is either one or the other, intentionally working with a supposedly ultimate evil or very, very dumb. Which is it? You then try to claim that anything can get into the garden, so it’s okay. That’s rather amazing, that it’s okay for your god’s archenemy can go anywhere, when your religion claims that this being is somehow locked in hell. How interesting. And then you claim that Eden is an “another dimensional plane that resides on earth”. What lovely baseless claims! Funny how your fellow Christians don’t agree with you at all. Now, again, how do we figure out which of your versions is the true one, if any? Claims of magical dimensional planes reminds me of when I play Dungeons and Dragons. I have done a lot of research on the claims of heaven, hell and magical places that your religion has invented and again no evidence for any version of the Christian fantasies.
I see that you are using yet one more classic Christian claim, that parts that are ridiculous in your bible aren’t literal “world of eastern thoughts regarding the serpent vs. literal interpretation of such”. This is always a problem for Christians since they cannot agree on what parts should be considered literal or metaphor, and cannot show that their version is any more true than the next. You all use your magic decoder rings to decleare that the parts you don’t like are metaphor and that parts you do like are literal. It is no surprise that you say “It is not a topic that I wish to dwell in for it will not be profitable for either of us.” It would be very profitable for me if you would continue because again, this will show that your claims are nonsense. There is no evidence that God exist, much less evidence that your god is “good”. You see, LIL, you have used a circular argument again, and have nothing to support it. You have also made up something that is refuted by your own bible. A&E did not know evil because this god made them that way; they were not ignorant about evil because they only lived with this god. You wish again to try to define evil and sin as “separation” from your god. However, we know that people are good and do not need your god at all to make them this way.
Unfortunately for you, your bible does not say that sin is separation from your god; it says that certain things are sin, and never once mentions that they are some mysterious “separation from God”. Indeed, your bible says that your god is everywhere e.g. omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-12, one of many verses), even in this hell that Christians have made up. If we are to believe made up nonsense about your Jesus Christ, he visited this hell. God says nothing about sin leading to death to Adam or Eve. Genesis 2: 16-17 says nothing about sin, it has your god saying that if they eat of the tree of good and evil they will die. Nothing more. The first time the idea of “sin” is mentioned is in Genesis 4, where this god mentions it to Cain, and then proceeds to favor Abel over Cain for no reason. This again backs up the claims in Romans 9, where this god favors one human over another for no reason other than a deity’s whim. There is no evidence that this god exists, or that this god is good, or that Adam and Eve existed. My speculation is limited to the actions of characters in a myth, and is based on the very objective fact of the story in your supposed holy book. I look at what it says. I do not try to add to it, hoping someone else is ignorant enough to believe that those additions are really in there.
You claim that I somehow “misunderstand” the bible. However, even given the opportunity to support your claims, you have not. You have yet to show that your version of what your god supposedly “really” meant and “really” wants is any better than any other Christians or is true at all.
You make the false claim that one cannot define good or evil without your god, “Without God you can’t define good or evil”. People do it all of the time, using their own gods that aren’t your version and without gods at all. But if you wish to claim that anyone who isn’t a Christian is evil, you are welcome to do so. Are you saying this, LIL? I’m asking you this so I know exactly where you stand.
You seem to be praying for me ” Lord, help this one.” Rather than showing evidence for you claims, you rely on prayer. So, what are you praying for, LIL? How is this god to help me? I’ve had hundreds, if not thousands, of Christians pray for me. Now, what happens to your claims when nothing happens when you pray? What excuse will you offer? Does your god love me as I am? Does your god find your prayers abhorrent? Or does your god not exist and your prayers are worthless?
You try to ignore that your bible says directly that your god is responsible for evil. You have offered the nonsense that CARM has ginned up and cannot answer yourself and have ignored the context of the verse, well described by the fellow at Daylight Atheism. The Hebrew term “ra” is defined as “evil”, and is consistently used in this sense throughout the bible. Your lovely CARM entry has this which is hilarious “First of all, the Hebrew word for evil, rah, is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as evil. The other 232 times it is translated as wicked, bad, hurt, harm, ill, sorrow, mischief, displeased, adversity, affliction, trouble, calamity, grievous, misery, and trouble.” Wow, great way to demonstrate that “ra” is used to describe all sorts of evil acts. Let’s see, God is responsible for wickedness, harm, hurt, sorrow, trouble, misery, etc etc. Why, that’s a god that I really want to worship.
Contextually, it is indeed talking about moral evil, when it mentions light and darkness, prosperity and disaster (NIV), which is good and evil. Unless you wish to claim light is not good and darkness is not evil, prosperity is not good and disaster is not evil. Do you? If one reads further in Isaiah 45, we also have the repetition of the same words in Romans 9, that have humans as being mere pots and not to question the potter. More evidence from your bible that free will is not encouraged or required by your god or its myths.
I don’t care about what CARM says, LIL. I can understand that you don’t want to reinvent the wheel, but sometimes that avoidance (of putting things in your own words) is to avoid how bad the argument is. Your god sends evil spirits, and that term of evil certainly does mean moral evil. Your god uses evil. How can pure good use evil, LIL?
No, my post is not a lack of understanding, it’s a whole lot of understanding without the a priori assumption that the bible is some magical book from a god that I have to be afraid of. Again, LIL, a god’s interference is abrogating free will. As soon as something omniscient says I can’t do something because it wants something else to happen, then I have no free will. I’ve spent quite a few years in finding the answers and you have yet to show that I am wrong. You have presented nothing more than baseless claims, false claims about what is in the bible, etc. I have considered context and have shown that your claims about it are also wrong. It does make a difference if someone has actually read the bible and has not taken someone else’s word for what is in it.
I take no offence from someone like you, LIL. You intend on giving it, but there’s nothing to take. You have made baseless claims and have shown yourself to be untrustworthy, making false statements about me, etc. You have yet to show that anything I have sad is a “lie” or a “deceit”, or that anything I have referenced is the same. I am waiting for evidence, not vague claims that amount to throwing shit at wall and hoping some of it sticks. You can pray as hard as you can that I wouldn’t say that I was a Christian as good as you, and you will fail because I don’t lie to make people like you feel better.
I’m quite happy to be a “natural person”, because that’s all any of us are. You try to pretend you are better than others, that only you can be good, but that is not true. Your last quote of the bible (I Corinthians 2:14) also supports the idea that no one has free will, as you have claimed. Again, everything depends on having this “spirit” and again your bible says no one does unless your god has already foreordained it.
You are welcome to chat here at my blog.
(I’ve done a little formatting today, 2/11. Any additions for clarification are in parentheses.)
(a late breaking addition: I have found something quite interesting. I have NSC here commenting below who’s email and site is: christisthecure.wordpress.comx same email address (removed by request) 184.108.40.206
and strangely enough, that matches logicinlife’s email and site: christisthecure.wordpress.comx same email address (removed by request) 220.127.116.11
it seems we have a sock puppet. Or there is some mysterious reason that LIL changed his name to NSC. )