Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – a month since the Reason Rally, what happened to those gift cards?

a publicity picture of the gift cards

a publicity picture of the gift cards

It’s been about a month since the Reason Rally in DC, and I was wondering what happened to those supposed 5,000 gift cards Ray Comfort had ready and waiting for the rally goers if they took a copy of his book. It was announced that these cards would be going to charity. Some atheists praised him for doing the right thing. And then things went silent on that front.

Writing to the Living Waters church that Ray runs, I inquired the status of the donation. Someone there kindly replied:

“We greatly appreciate you taking the time to email us. I am a member of Ray Comfort’s ministry team. He has entrusted me to answer some of the emails that come into the ministry.

Thank you for your email and in answer to your question, This is still in planning stages. Hope that helps and if you are not already signed up for our Weekly Updates and would like to be, simply enter your email address at the following link.”

Now, this does seem more than a little curious that it would take more than a month to give already existing cards to a charity like a food bank, etc.   I’ve worked in the non-profit arena, and it would take a box full of gift cards and a receipt to donate them. They would have already been accounted for in the bookkeeping for the organization.

facebook screen capture

facebook screen capture

This is a man who chose not to spend a little money to get a permit to give these cards out at the rally, who made the sad little claim “”You can’t tell me that the organizers of the atheist Reason Rally aren’t praying that it won’t rain on Saturday,” on facebook in order to make believe that everyone prays just like him(so much for his claim on how great he gets along with atheists), and now seems to have a curious delay in giving the cards away. Hmmm, since there was no rain, and it was a lovely day for the rally, it seems that either prayers from atheists work and they don’t work for TrueChristians, or that prayers don’t matter at all.

Should he be doubted in his intentions? Perhaps. It is worth keeping the attention on him and Living Waters to make sure that the claim is fulfilled, since it took that attention to get him to make the claim in the first place. It would be a shame that the surprise that Ray promised here “”They are the ones to whom I’m speaking. Same with Atheist Central. So I always keep in mind the silent 2,000 on the page who are thinking about what they hear. Heaven rejoices over one that comes to repentance. Also, I want even the nasty atheists to stay for a while. I have a surprise for them.” Is that he isn’t donating the cards at all.

I’ve signed up for his weekly update and will have a new blog post when I see the details on the donation.

 

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119 responses to “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – a month since the Reason Rally, what happened to those gift cards?

  1. Still in the planning phases, huh? I see….

    Last night I was at a party and a girl from florida was there. She’s studying marine biology (great kid, atheist) and lives with her evangelical grandmother. Not sure how this works, but the church the grandmother attends (and works for, doing the books, full time) is a food bank (stocked, I assume, from government grants) where people with food stamps can come and get food. Sounds all well and good, until…. Before the food stamp people arrive, the pastor (and the grandmother) open the food bank to church members and let them take what they want, for free.

    That’s the love of Jesus for you.

    • ah, so the goats get a chance at the feed before those who need it. unfortunately, this doesn’t surprise me at all. and the food pantry is likely supported by gov’t grants and people who expect their money to help those hwo need it, not to be stolen by church members.

    • The most accurate statement you made is, “Not sure how this works…”

      My wife works at the local women’s shelter where 100% of the food (and other stuff) donated comes from non-government sources. There are numerous advantages to charities avoiding government regulation. One of the big ‘up sides’ is freedom to distribute supplies to the shelter residents without legal obligation to fulfill requests (or demands) from the larger community.

      My church also runs a food bank. 100% of the food is donated by members of the congregation. Sometimes church members need groceries and they are given provisions from the food bank. It seems reasonable that church members who are hungry should be given first dibs. But affiliation with the church is NOT a pre-requisite for acquiring aid. We don’t force people to attend a service. We don’t force anyone to repent. Nobody has to get baptized.
      We just give them food.

      I’ve never heard of the government funding a church charity. You remember that whole ‘separation of church and state’ thing?

      • Charities cannot, and do not, avoid government regulation. There is nothing in government regulations that would “require” distribution to the larger community. As usual, JB, you seem to be making up nonsense. As always, you are welcome to provide evidence for your claims. I’m still waiting for your evidence for your prior claims.

        If your church runs a food bank and 100% of the food donated is from your congregation, how many people do you support and with what? If you are only supporting church members, then you are doing nothing for the community at large, and are nothing better than a group of friends who help each other. A nice idea, but not what is claimed when theists try to make claims that their nonsense should be tax exempt because they help the whole community.

        If a church food bank accepts donations from other sources, and then helps themselves to it, no matter if they need it or not, then there is a problem. Would you not agree?

        You and your church may not require people to attend a service. That is not the case with organizations like the Salvation Army, my local mission, etc. They must listen to prayers to get a meal. Prayers that do nothing.

        You haven’t heard of the government funding a church charity? That’s called allowing churches to get away with paying no taxes and allowing pastors to get away with writing off living quarters as a “parsonage” (always fun to watch pastors have multi-million dollar homes and write off what it would cost to rent them). They also get government support through the Office of Faith-based and Neighborhood Initiatives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_Office_of_Faith-Based_and_Neighborhood_Partnerships

        I do wish there was a real separation of church and state. Alas, the church does its best to try to get preferential treatment by the government. The truth will out, JB. And again, you’ve been shown wrong.

      • In your blog space, you can create whatever reality you want! You can equate tax exemption with funding church charity. You can assign any wacky concept to me and then gleefully declare that I’m ‘shown wrong’. It’s your world, Club! I acknowledge that here, you are God!

      • Always good to see you again be unable to support your claims, JB. Unfortunately, for you, I am not creating my own reality here, but showing that you are a liar by showing actual facts.

        Tax exemption is funding churches, because other non-profits do not get the same benefit that churches do. You do not pay taxes for the use of public safety, public sanitation, etc. Those funds are then used by the church any way they wish.

        Please do show how I am wrong, JB. As always, you are encouraged to show that your claims are true. You haven’t yet. It’s also great fun to watch you refuse to admit that you are wrong when you claim that there is no government funding of religion. Poor thing, does the existence of the Office of Faith-Based and Neighborhood Initiatives show that a Christian is either an intentional liar or sadly ignorant?

        And I’m not a god at all, but I do show that Christians like John Branyan intentionally make false claims for his benefit.

      • “Tax exemption is funding churches, because other non-profits do not get the same benefit that churches do. You do not pay taxes for the use of public safety, public sanitation, etc. Those funds are then used by the church any way they wish….” <—Club's Personal Reality

      • funny how my “personal reality” is the reality for everyone.

        Unless, of course, you can show otherwise, JB. Can you? If not, your claims are the usual false ones you always offer. I am waiting for you to show that I am wrong.

      • Sure, but the goods are exchanged for food stamps (issued by the government), so the food is not “free.” It is, however, given away free to church members, on the side.

      • usually in the US, food pantries don’t require food stamps. It is when food stamps (SNAP programs etc which subsidize purchases of food, etc from regular grocery stories) are cut that food pantries are even more depended upon. Many non religious food pantries (and I’m guessing many who are religious) depend on donations from corporations who get tax benefits from doing so. Donations from the public do help but they are rarely the primary source of food for non-profit pantry. That is the donations from corporations and funding from state and federal government. What a lot of folks don’t know is that their local food bank may get resources from a regional food bank, which gets funding that they have no idea about. My local one, Central Pennsylvania Food Bank, gets funding from the feds, etc as one can see on their tax form 990 http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=4479#.VvA8UKYVEQ8 they have many affiliates and they all share in the funding.

      • If they take food stamps, as it was said, then its not a charity, just a food outlet where goods are exchanged for, in this instance, food stamps. What this girl said to me was her Grandmother and the pastor “open the doors” to church members to take what they want, for free, before the “paying” customers come in.

      • I’m not wrong.
        The article you posted offers no specific policies. It does reference one church’s decision to refuse government aid in order to be able to proclaim the gospel. That’s because the government has stipulations regarding what can and cannot be said after funds are received. State agencies do not hand out cash to private churches with ‘no strings attached’.

        I will confess that in reference to JZ’s original post, I am utterly ignorant. I do not know any details. If it is a fact that a church is collecting food donations and then requiring payment from needy people, then that is dishonest. It defies the definition of ‘charity’. But I just don’t know the whole story…

      • Again, JB, you have not shown your claims are true, so yes, you are wrong when you claim that no church gets federal funding. This is what you said “I’ve never heard of the government funding a church charity. You remember that whole ‘separation of church and state’ thing?” You never recanted that despite being shown that you are wrong.

        You have also tried to claim that tax exemption for churches does not allow them to use money that they would have used to pay for taxes, and thus pay their fair share, to do other things that they choose to do. You have falsely tried to claim that I have made up things and again, that is one more intentional false claim told by a person in order to gain a benefit, aka a lie.

        You are correct, you do not know the whole story. At this point, none of us do. The difference between your claims is that you have nothing to support your claims and I have given evidence that supports the story JZ was told and I have given evidence your claims were also wrong.

        As I’ve asked Amanda, why are you here? You do the same thing as she does, make baseless claims, are shown that your claims aren’t true and then run away only to come back to repeat the process. It’s like watching a pair of constipated seagulls, trying to shit over everything but not achieving much.

        I don’t mind dealing with both sets of nonsense since it goes a long way to support my points about religion but I’m not sure what either of you get out of it.

      • I can’t speak for Amanda.

        I keep showing up because you’re an interesting study in human nature. I have learned a lot from our conversations.

      • So, what have you learned, JB? I’ve learned little from you, in that you are a typical Christian who makes claims and then cannot support them. Those are a dime a dozen.

        I am still waiting for the evidence that supports your claims. However, I suspect that you will shortly run away again since you have none. You will then return making similar baseless claims and then again run away those claims are shown to be false. It’s become quite a cycle.

      • I’ve learned way more from you than you’ve learned from me.

        I do not run away. I retreat to process what you’re teaching me.

      • You do not run away. Right. You just disallow comments on your blog. I believe there’s a word for that.

      • I’ve never disallowed, blocked, edited or deleted a single comment. I believe there’s also a word for accusing me of stuff didn’t do.

      • I am calling BULLSHIT on you, John. Just imagine, a CHRISTIAN telling a lie?!?! It’s very convenient that you can state that but I know very well there are comments I made just recently that were disallowed. Can’t prove it, though, can I? So it’s your word against mine. You aren’t the only fundamentalist who practices deceit, though. You’re the third who’s disallowed my comments. I don’t use profanity, I do not attack other commenters, and I am always polite. Trouble is, you fundamentalists just don’t agree with my opinions. Get your head out of your arse, John. (That’s about the worst thing I’ve ever said, btw)
        Sorry, Club but it’s rather difficult to air a frustration when one doesn’t get ‘air time’ on another’s blog.

      • Every single comment you’ve ever made on my blog is still there but I can’t prove it either.

      • I’m useless at these things, but go to you site admin, click on comments, and above the list-thing you`ll see a Span file with a number beside it showing how many things are in there. Click on that.

      • I FOUND IT! It’s in an area of WordPress I don’t frequent.

        There is nothing in Spam from Carmen.

        HOWEVER!! There was a comment in the trash. I restored it immediately. I’m sure I am guilty of deleting it but I didn’t do it on purpose.

        I can’t prove that though.

      • Carmen, you know I love you, but are you sure it was John’s blog? I’m certainly not defending his style of debate, Veles only knows how excruciatingly tiresome it is, but unlike virtually every other apologists’ site (CS, Insanity, Wally, James, Madblog to name a few), his doesn’t come with instant Moderation.

      • It was a couple of weeks ago, John and quite a bit has happened on my end but I’m sure there were two comments. I cannot even recall what it was about now, but it was a long thread and I made one comment and went back; was rather amazed that it didn’t make it to the ‘board’. Made another just to make sure and then, when that one didn’t appear, decided to ‘do a runner’. I have not commented since then. I was rather surprised (and dismayed) myself.
        Of course, there is the distinct possibility that (being the senior on this blog) I’m losing it. . . 🙂

      • I found a comment a from you in the trash, Carmen. My apologies! I did not intend to disallow your comment. It was purely accidental (probably from using my phone instead of my laptop…)

        I restored the comment.

      • Well, John B – you’ve restored my faith! (In you!). JZ, take your place among the peacekeepers. 😉

      • I was just writing, “Where would any of us be without imagination?” Whatever turns your crank! Ha, ha. . .

      • It is a good thing that you restored a comment. However, since the information about spam and trash is right above the list of comments made on the blog, it is exceedingly odd that you claim to not often visit the comments area of your own blog. At least you know now.

      • Oh I know. I’ve recently have had the self-professed Christian Scotty who thought he could lie about evolution, was shown that he couldn’t, and then we had our father and daughter team attack me there. Poor ol’ Scotty found it necessary to deny my posts in response to the false claims and intentionally tried to make it appear that no one can respond to his nonsense nor to the nonsense of his fellow Christians.

        Often it isn’t worth the effort, but screen shots are great fun to use in these instances. 🙂

        The actions of Christians in these instances do bely their claims of how important the bible is, and appears to support the observation that they no more believe in the god claimed in it if they think they can hide their actions from it. Unfortunately, many Christians forget that their god says that lying for it is just as abhorrent as lying for any reason at all (Romans 3).

      • Again, JB, where is the evidence to support your claims? Why do you consistently refuse to provide any and then return to attack another post of mine, without providing evidence for the claims made before if you are “processing” what you have learned? And as I have asked before, what have you supposedly learned from me? Or is that a lovely bit of passive aggressive nonsense?

      • 1. The name of Thor’s hammer.
        2. Marvel Comics contain more wisdom than the Bible.
        3. The meaning of the word ‘ Schadenfreude’.
        4. Ray Comfort is a horrible person.
        5. Christian orphanages are evil institutions.
        6. I am a horrible person.
        7. Sincerity cannot be proven and must be accepted on faith.
        8. Evidence is inconsequential after a verdict is rendered.
        9. Never accuse someone of being ‘mistaken’ or ‘ misunderstood’ when you can accuse them of ‘lying’.
        10. New atheists are not new at all.

      • hmmm,

        1. Okay, but that would take no time if you already knew other religions. I knew the name of the hammer when I was in grade school.

        2. Shucks, JB, are you trying to be sarcastic here? If not, yep, the majority of the Marvel comics have far more wisdom in them than your bible that says genocide is okay, that slavery is okay, that it is okay to consider women property, that one should kill those that disagree with you, etc. That nonsense is left to the villains and they are known as villains because of those attitudes. That doesn’t reflect well on your god who approves of such horrible things.

        3. Yep, you did learn the term schadenfreude here and what I consider it to mean in my blog’s context.

        4. I’m glad you did learn that Ray Comfort is a horrible person. I’m of course still waiting for you to support your claims that he is not. Is it okay to waste $25K on a publicity stunt, JB? Does it make much sense that ol’ Ray promised to give the cards to charity and this is still in the planning stages more than a month later, after having been publically shamed into giving the cards to charity in the first place?

        5. Hmmm, where have I said that Christian orphanages are evil institutions, JB? You are quite a liar in saying that and you didn’t learn that here. What I pointed out is that your claims about the orphanage were false and that Christian missionaries do not freely offer their help but for a price which is quite true. But nice try to make a false claim, with the usual fail.

        6. You are a horrible person if you lie and you refuse to support your false claims. I’m still waiting for your apologies and for your evidence.

        7. Hmmm, where is it mentioned that sincerity can’t be proven and it must be only accepted on faith?

        8. Another lovely lie, JB! Please do show where I have not accepted evidence and where I have ignored it for a assumption I have made. I do expect this to be demonstrated, or we have just one more instance of you trying to cast aspersions and failing.

        9. I do not accuse someone of lying if they haven’t lied, JB. Lying is when you repeat false claims for your benefit after you have been shown evidence to the contrary. But please do show where I should have used “mistaken” or “misunderstood” when I have said lie. You have been given repeated chances to support your claims and when you refuse, why should your claims not be considered lies, JB?

        10. Nope, new atheists aren’t new at all, and you would know this if you knew anything about atheists and atheism. If I recall correctly, that sobriquet was invented by theists, specifically Christians. Atheists have been the same all through out history, using the same evidence and arguments that the claims of theists are false. I’ll also let you in on a secret, we also don’t worship Dawkins, Darwin, Hitchens or anyone else.

    • Yeah–as a long-time volunteer for a crisis pregnancy center, I can vouch that the blankets, diapers, formula, and clothing we gave away came directly from DONATIONS by people who believed in the cause.

      There were 1-2 full-time staff members at each branch and ALL THE OTHER people working there did so without earning a paycheck… and they never tangled with government money.

      Why?

      Because non-profits are used to dealing with godless jerks who pretend to be concerned about helping the needy. But then they scowl and complain and defame the ministries they admit they don’t know anything about…

      That’s the love of Atheists for you.

      Next time, JZ, when you write “I’m not sure how it works” just stop there.

      • It’s very unsurprising that you work for a organization that lies to pregnant women, Amanda. It’s always most curious that Christians must intentionally hide behind the term “crisis pregnancy center” when all they do is try to force their personal religion on someone who is looking for help. What does it say about you when you can’t be truthful?

        Yep, lots of anti-abortion organizations do get donations of blankets, diapers, forumula, etc from people who believe in the cause. What this has to do with food pantries and the fact that churches get plenty of government support, that is to be seen. It seems that Amanda and daddy JB are trying to move the goal posts as usual when one of their heroes is delaying doing anything with $25,000 that he initially promised to give to atheists if they took a book, then claimed to be donating to charity, and strangely has taken a month to do “planning”.

        Amanda, it’s no surprise that you try again to bear false witness against others, exactly like your bible says not to do. You do a great job at showing that being a Christian doesn’t make you a humane person. I do know quite a bit about the ministries described herein. You are more than welcome to support your false claims. I’m still waiting for you to support the false claims you have made before.

        If a religion must depend on lies told by its adherents, there is not much good to be said about that religion. Alas for Amanda, atheists, agnostics and non-Christians are just as charitable or more than Christians. We don’t hide giving to ourselves by claiming it is “charity”.

        Again, Amanda, since I’ve asked your dad, “If your church runs a food bank and 100% of the food donated is from your congregation, how many people do you support and with what? If you are only supporting church members, then you are doing nothing for the community at large, and are nothing better than a group of friends who help each other. A nice idea, but not what is claimed when theists try to make claims that their nonsense should be tax exempt because they help the whole community.”

        Is it okay for the church to take the cream of the crop and leave the rest? A simple yes or no will do, but feel free to support your answer in any case with as much evidence and discussion as you wish. You see, Amanda, I’m not a coward like your friend Scotty who intentionally lies on his website and does not allow any differing ideas to be shown, trying to make pretend that no one can answer the false claims of himself and others, like you.

        Of course, there is the whole list of your false claims that you have been unable, or unwilling, to answer: https://clubschadenfreude.com/2016/05/07/not-polite-dinner-conversation-reason-rally-and-thanks-ray-for-showing-that-your-god-doesnt-exist/#comment-9058

      • I don’t work for an organization that lies to pregnant women. I USED TO be A VOLUNTEER at an organization that lies to pregnant women. (*Snort laugh*)

        Conversations with you have become very predictable, Vel. Have you been told that before?

        I’m curious: how many times have you stepped foot in a Crisis Pregnancy Center?

      • this is what you said, Amanda “yeah–as a long-time volunteer for a crisis pregnancy center, I can vouch that the blankets, diapers, formula, and clothing we gave away came directly from DONATIONS by people who believed in the cause.”

        which is not what you are whining about now “I don’t work for an organization that lies to pregnant women. I USED TO be A VOLUNTEER at an organization that lies to pregnant women.”

        now, why don’t Christian antiabortion organizations say what they are, Amanda? Why do they intentiobally hide behind the term “crisis pregnancy center”, doing their best to hide their “light” under a bushel?

        I’ve never been in a “crisis pregnancy center” or an abortion clinic. I’ve been in a church run food pantry and in non-profit one that serves everyone. Please do tell us what that has to do with your claims.

      • Hmmm, you said you didn’t read my post and then responded to it. How does that work, Amanda?

        It seems you are intentionally making a false claim in order to benefit from it. I would assume you know that your bible repeatedly says that your god hates lies and liars, no matter the reason they may choose to make a false claim.

        As for what a “crisis pregnancy center” should call themselves, it would be interesting if they identified themselves as a faith based organization, but they don’t. They intentionally label themselves as nothing different than a secular group, say like Planned Parenthood. But they of course don’t offer the same services, now do they?

      • Thanks for admitting that you are just a troll.

        Still waiting for the evidence to support your claims, Amanda. You do have evidence, correct? Lying is not in the best interest of a Christian, if they believe what they’ve read.

      • I know you are terrified of actual evidence. However, you may be interested in the explanation I offered JZ about how food pantries work in the US: https://clubschadenfreude.com/2016/07/03/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-a-month-since-the-reason-rally-what-happened-to-those-gift-cards/#comment-9278

        Still waiting for your evidence to show that your claims are true and that mine are in error.

        Again, Amanda, you did you best to defend Ray Comfort and his actions. You’ve been asked a question. Why is it that you will not answer? No need to read the original post and you’ve admitted to reading the comments.

      • That’s not how “food pantries work in the US.” At least not any that I’ve ever heard of.

        The ones that are connected to churches are usually self-stocked and self-regulated. The congregation collects the food and the congregation gives it to needy people–including those who are part of their congregation.

        I have never heard of a church pantry accepting food stamps. And I’ve been to a lot of churches.

      • I’ll ask you a direct question, Amanda: would it take any organization you’ve been a part of in regards to donation, to take a month to make the donation when the donation was already earmarked to be given out at an event, already taken care of in the bookkeeping, and already printed out? When people already pointed out many many food banks that could take the donation?

        You’ve avoided the point of my post. Ray Comfort first claimed he was going to use $25,000 to try to convince people to take his books. When he refused to pay less than $200 to get a permit to give these out, he had to be publically shamed to do the right thing. And now, the charitable gift is now in “planning”.

        And you are enough of a twit to make false claims that atheists aren’t as charitable as Christians are. Sigh. Yep, things are very predictable. You come here. You make a false claims. I ask for evidence, and then you run away.

      • It`s not a charity if it takes food stamps in exchange for food, correct?

        There is a transaction occuring.

        Now think about your comment.

      • I have never heard of a charity taking food stamps in exchange for food.

        That’s what I’m telling you. I have been involved with MANY charities and non-profits. And I’ve never taken a food stamp check from anyone.

        Sooooo…..?

      • JZ said, and I quote, “I’m not sure how it works.”
        He was also giving second-hand information.

        I have no idea which stores or organizations are allowed to accept food stamps and which aren’t. But that has nothing to do with JZ’s comment the grandmother’s church is “stocked, I assume, with government grants.”

        He has no idea how those pantries are stocked… and every one I’ve ever heard is stocked WITHOUT government grants.

      • what you claim to have heard of is simply wrong, Amanda. Church food pantries are often stocked by government grants passed through other entities as I have supported with evidence.

        I also have evidence that churches can take EBT (food stamp) money:

        http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Local-Church-David-Barrett-EBT-Benefits-Exchanged-for-Shelter-276967371.html

        and the regulations for institutions to do what JZ seems to be describing: http://www.fns.usda.gov/fr-120505 It seems a way to allow institutions to use wholesalers, but it seems that this church is abusing the rules.

      • I literally have no idea what point you’re trying to make.

        Perhaps that makes me stupid.

        It’s charity when Walmart accepts food stamps from people who otherwise wouldn’t be able to eat. And it’s charity if/when a farmer’s market accepts food stamps from people who otherwise wouldn’t be able to pay. (Our local one just started doing this.) And it’s charity if a church accepts food stamps from someone who otherwise wouldn’t be able to pay.

        But–AGAIN–I have NEVER heard of a church that takes food stamps and the majority of them do not. So, I would like to know the name of this one.

      • and the majority of them do not

        so, you’re saying some do. This one evidently does. It is running some sort of business, collecting food stamps from outsiders, but giving the food away for free to church members. $$$

      • You are the one who chose ignore posts. Remember, Amanda, you are the one who claims not to read posts when convenient. It’s no wonder you have no idea what point someone is trying to make.

        It is not charity if someone takes food stamps for food. That is a subsidy paid US citizens to provide food. They get market value for accepting food stamps.

        If someone has to pay anything, either a person with cash or someone with SNAP who is paying with taxpayer money, that is not charity to accept that payment. Charity is giving without expecting recompense.

        Again, no one cares what you know or heard of. You have been provided with evidence and as usual, you provide none to support your claims. Why is this, Amanda?

      • Soooo….I’m not going to get the name of the church?

        (And I’m not just “claiming” to ignore posts. That’s exactly what I do. I only read about 10% of what you write, Club. Just being honest.)

      • And there is the evasion of facts presented.

        Time after time after time.

        Your behaviour really is quite pathetic. I don’t like saying that, it gives me no pleasure, but you simply do not conduct yourself in a way that deserves respect.

        Why do you even bother engaging people?

      • I figured you would say “I don’t know the name of the church” and we’d go from there… Maybe even searching the Internet together, because I’m interested in whether such a program exists.

        If, in fact, some church is getting tangled with the government, I’d have a problem with that. I’d recommend that people stop donating to that church pantry because it’s impossible to do good things for people if you let the government be involved in any of it. Really, they’re damned if they do and if they don’t. Because some people hate everything Christians do, even when it’s totally legal and motivated by goodwill. I’d still call their office and suggest they open an official grocery store if they want to accept the Government Charity Currency of food stamps…

        But, sure, I’m stupid and pathetic and don’t deserve respect.

        That’s an optional response, too.

      • Again, Amanda, you have been shown repeatedly that churches do indeed take government funds. They may choose not to but plenty do, as do the church run food pantries in my area who get supplies from the Central PA Food Bank, which uses federal and state funding to purchase food.

        It’s hilarious that you also lie about how the government doesn’t do good for people. The government funds the CDC and NIH so we get vaccines and antibiotics and modern medicines which you so hypocritically use. It creates the highway system, the military that protects your freedoms,. It protects us in the air, it forecasts the weather so farmers can know what is coming so you can eat.

        You just want to pretend to be a martyr and that no one else does anything good. Those are more lies, Amanda. It’s also great to see you attempt to walk back your claims, by whining that something is “totally legal”.

        You don’t deserve respect at all because of the actions you take all by yourself.. You have yet to show just how stupid and pathetic you want to represent yourself as.

      • You are not being honest at all, Amanda. You initially claimed that you did not read my posts at all “I didn’t read your post, Vel. So there’s your direct, honest answer. “, and now we have you changing your story claiming that you “only read about 10%” . That’s the problem with your lies, you constantly have to adjust them when the facts don’t match what you’ve said. Again, you are an excellent example of how a TrueChristian is not interested in following the commands of her god when convenient for her.

        It would be best if JZ could identify the church he mentioned. He may not have access to the woman who told him the story. You have been shown evidence to support the story and been shown evidence that your claims are simply wrong.

        You have also come to my blog to do nothing more than run around making claims that have nothing to do with the original post you chose to comment on. Again, Amanda, you defended Ray Comfort repeatedly and when shown you were wrong then, you tried you best to change the topic and failed at that too. You have been asked if any of the non-profits you supposedly worked at would take a month to donate gift cards that were already processed through his organization. You have refused to answer that.

        Why are you here Amanda? You are dishonest and you are a troll. Do you need attention so much that even negative attention is worth you showing that your religion is nonsense?

      • Don’t know the name of the church, just that it’s in Miami, about 40 miles from the center of the city (where the girl lives with her grandmother) in an area peppered with evangelical churches. Take your pick. I’m sure they’re all crooked in some shape or another.

      • I didn’t read your post about Ray Comfort and still haven’t. I only skipped to JZs comment and responded to it.

        And I only read the first 2-3 lines of this last comment of yours.

        I have no idea what you said after “You’re not being honest… Now we have you changing your story that you only read about 10%.”

        I’m not interested in the rest.

        And, if you won’t believe me when I’m telling you the truth about how little I care about what you’re writing, I don’t know how to convince you of anything.

        So, the next time you comment, I’m not going to read ANY of it.

        Have a wonderful day!

      • Calling me a troll seems to suggest I got under your skin…?
        Apparently this topic is an ouchy one for you?

        Wagging your finger at people for their methods in feeding the hungry…without even knowing the details!
        It’s okay to admit you spoke out of turn because you’re always a little over-eager to trash whatever Christians are doing.

      • Nope, just making a factual observation. Do you want to get under people’s skin, Amanda? If so, that is one more bit of fact to show that you are nothing but a troll.

        The topic isn’t not “ouchy” at all since I have presented evidence to support my points and continue to discuss it. We have you and your father who have refused to answer questions and refused to provide evidence to support their baseless claims. Now, whose actions are demonstrating that they find a subject “ouchy”?

        Again, Amanda, where are the facts to support your claims? And funny how for someone who doesn’t didn’t read my original post, and who claims she doesn’t read comments, here you are commenting on them again. Thank you again for showing that Amanda, self-proclaimed Christian, ignores the words of her god that say that lying is something to be reviled and never to be done.

      • Of course you haven’t read the post, Amanda since it shows again that your claims are untrue. It’s awfully easy to close your eyes and stuff your ears and then lie about people, isn’t it?

        You are simply a liar and it is unfortunate since not all Christians behave so badly.

        I’m sorry you pretend not to understand that if you say you have read none of a post, saying that now you have read 10% of it makes one of the two statements a lie.

        Funny for someone who repeatedly claims how little she cares about what I am writing, you sure spend a lot of time here telling me and others how wrong we are and making false claims that you can’t support. Again, Amanda, your own words show you to be dishonest.

        Now stamp your little feet and go away and whine and feel so important that the world will end if you don’t read my comments. I’d be more than happy to have one less constipated seagull on my comments section. But again, you are again more than welcome to support your claims with evidence.

        I’ll be waiting.

        Oh and it’s quite hilarious to see you posting again and again after this post. Tsk.

    • heh. of course not, Carmen. This seems to be no more than a delaying tactic by good ol’ Ray’s church. I hope its not, there are many people who could benefit from this charity, but I’m betting a thousand quatloos that no one ever sees this charity.

      (quatloo: fictional currency from an episode of Star Trek).

    • I’m working on a new theory that “Club/Vel” is actually a piece of software, created by you, JZ.

      “She” (the software) picks up on key words in comments and then repeats them back in angry, almost-incoherent ways. The script is probably something like:

      “You CLAIM [keyword]. Indeed, you are quite dishonest about [keyword]… Lies, lies, lies liar! No evidence for [keyword]!” (Note: The software asks for evidence, even to support general statements like, “I didn’t read your post about Ray.” Thus, no matter how you answer or don’t answer, she concludes you’re lying.)

      Oooooooor, maybe she doesn’t really “conclude” at all…because computers don’t reason. They just recite.

      It’s brilliant, JZ! And every bit as annoying as I assume you (or whoever wrote the Club Software) intended. 🙂

      I won’t be convinced Club is a real person until I meet her face-to-face. Until then, there will always be room for doubt…and I will continue to only skim whatever she/the program spits out, which averages to about 10%.

      JZ–if you want me to take Club’s comments more seriously, you’ll need to work out some bugs.

      • It’s great to see you try to make believe I’m not human, Amanda. Does this nonsense make you feel better? It’s quite the typical tactic by someone who wants to pretend that they are so very special. It’s also great to see you intentionally lie again by misrepresenting my words intentionally. This is how I know you are lying, seeing what you write and seeing what I have written. It’s pleasant having a written medium when it is so easy to see what you have tried to do. Like many politicians, it seems that you think if you wish hard enough, the actual words disappear.

        Hmmm, it’s your claim that you didn’t read my original post, and it is your words about that post that show you did indeed read it, and other posts when you respond. You have gone from claiming that you don’t read posts, to claiming that you read “10%” of them when it was pointed out that it’s rather hard to respond to posts as you have, without reading them. Which claim is the truth, Amanda? They both can’t be. Did you lie before, or are you lying now? Which lie would the Christian God approve of?

        I’m still waiting for you to support your claims and to answer questions. I know you won’t because you have said this. As always, some tactic to divert attention from the fact that you have nothing to support your claims. Are you sure you don’t want to start talking about how one describes red to a blind man again?

        You may of course doubt that I am a real human being if that makes you feel superior, Amanda, and it gives you one more excuse to refuse to provide evidence and answer questions. But the probability of that being true is rather low. Would you now like to claim that the United States didn’t land on the moon or that Queen Elizabeth 2 is a shape shifting reptilian alien?

      • “It’s great to see you try to make believe I’m not human, Amanda!”

        Thanks, Robo-Club! I’m glad you’re having fun! And I didn’t read anything after that, so I hope it wasn’t important…

        Now quiet for a minute. I’m trying to make some recommendations to JZ about how he can improve your subroutine so it’s not quite so obvious that you’re a computer.

      • Keep digging, Amanda. Since you wish to claim that I’m not human, it is up to you to show that your claim is true. Can you? There is plenty of evidence to the contrary on my blog, so you will need to explain all of that evidence as some kind of conspiracy and present positive evidence of your own to support your claims. However, considering your track record, the probability is high that you will not be able to support your claim, showing it to be one more bit of false nonsense you have invented.

        Why is it so important to you to try to pretend that I am not human? In history, those that try to claim others as less than, or not, human appear to do so out of fear and a need to blame another for their failures so they can feel superior. You plaintively claimed you were a person, when you falsely claimed that I was making personal attacks, yet one more unsupported bit of nonsense. “I’m a person, Club. My name is Amanda. I’m married, and we have three children. I like hosting parties and Zumba. And, most importantly, I’m not at war with you. I don’t hate you, so I’m sorry if you got that impression somehow.” Now, we have you insisting that I am not a person and doing nothing but personal attacks. So much for your claim that you are not at “war” with me, considering your behavior here.

        Please do make your “recommendations” to JZ on programming. That should be hilarious to read. And JZ, amazing programming you’ve done here. You’d win a Nobel for it 🙂

      • I will be pleased to, and there, I have already done so. Now, Amanda, please do tell us how you can determine what a human can say and what a sophisticated piece of software can generate? If you cannot, then you have no way of telling and the question is ridiculous.

      • Ah, so you have no way to know if something is said by a human being or a set of code. All you have is your baseless claim and nothing else. How unsurprising.

        Still waiting for the evidence that supports your claim that I’m not human, and all of your other false claims. As it stands, all we have is Amanda’s fantasies, and there is no difference between the ones that claim that her god exists or the ones that claim that I am not human. Thanks for showing exactly how ridiculous all of your claims are.

      • Club, don’t feed the troll. The woman clearly has issues. She supports slavery after all, so things, self-evidently, aren’t exactly right in her head.

      • Heh. You are right, I probably should ignore or ban her. However, it is fascinating to see what she will say next to further demonstrate that her religion is nothing more than self projection as god.

      • wow, nice demonstration of your inability to comprehend a sentence, Amanda. Funny how my response “Hmmm, what is wrong with that sentence, Amanda? Give us a grammar lesson.” is referring to everyone who is watching your antics here. Now, Amanda, do you want to claim that everyone but you is software invented by JZ? If so, how solipsistic of you.

      • It’s not that I KNOW you’re software, Club. I don’t believe you’re a robot.

        I simply DON’T believe that you’re human. It’s an unbelief of mine.

        (There isn’t enough evidence.)

      • Amanda made the following post: “It’s not that I KNOW you’re software, Club. I don’t believe you’re a robot. I simply DON’T believe that you’re human. It’s an unbelief of mine. (There isn’t enough evidence.)”

        So, when you made the following claims, you were making intentionally false comments when you claimed to know such things were true?

        “…which is EXACTLY what a piece of software programmed to say exactly that would say…”

        “So you admit it, JZ! The Club software is just a computer extension of yourself!”

        “Exhibit A: Random phrases strung together. It’s hard to believe a human would put together a sentence like this!”

        “Nope, sorry. That’s not something only a human could say.…because you just said it……and I’m pretty sure you’re software.”

        “Thanks, Robo-Club! I’m glad you’re having fun! And I didn’t read anything after that, so I hope it wasn’t important…Now quiet for a minute. I’m trying to make some recommendations to JZ about how he can improve your subroutine so it’s not quite so obvious that you’re a computer.”

        ““She” (the software) picks up on key words in comments and then repeats them back in angry, almost-incoherent ways. The script is probably something like“You CLAIM [keyword]. Indeed, you are quite dishonest about [keyword]… Lies, lies, lies liar! No evidence for [keyword]!” (Note: The software asks for evidence, even to support general statements like, “I didn’t read your post about Ray.” Thus, no matter how you answer or don’t answer, she concludes you’re lying.)
        Oooooooor, maybe she doesn’t really “conclude” at all…because computers don’t reason. They just recite.It’s brilliant, JZ! And every bit as annoying as I assume you (or whoever wrote the Club Software) intended. I won’t be convinced Club is a real person until I meet her face-to-face. Until then, there will always be room for doubt…and I will continue to only skim whatever she/the program spits out, which averages to about 10%. JZ–if you want me to take Club’s comments more seriously, you’ll need to work out some bugs.”

        Thanks for showing that there is no reason to think that any of your claims and beliefs are true. You’ve done a lovely job of showing that there is no reason to believe a claim that cannot be supported by evidence. You’ve used the same tactic to claim I was not human as you use to claim your god exists. Neither claim is based on evidence, only something that you claim is true “a belief of yours”. You are quite right, there isn’t enough evidence. In fact, there is no evidence at all.

        I do see that you are desperately trying to claim that you have an “unbelief” but there is no such thing. You made a positive claim that you know that I am not human. Your new attempt to claim you haven’t made such a claim isn’t true either. It is up to you to provide evidence for your claim. I’m waiting.

      • Exhibit B: the Club software always needs to get the last word. It behaves exactly like a program would, if that program were written specifically to argue. (The software would have to respond to Christians, even when it doesn’t have a good response. That’s because it’s hard to write code that can “figure out” when to NOT respond. Computers don’t exercise good judgment.)

        Furthermore, because the Club Program needs to reply every time a Christian speaks, sometimes the software ends up responding to conversations that weren’t meant for it.

        Example: sometimes the Club program gets confused and answers questions that Mrs. McMommy was asking JZ.

        (Still waiting for evidence that you’re human, Robo-Club.)

      • What evidence would you accept, Amanda?

        It’s great to see you invent reasons why I should not respond to you and show how your claims fail. Is this all this has been for, Amanda, that you desperately want people to stop showing you that you are wrong and have to pretend that no one else is human except you and perhaps JZ?

        Computers don’t exercise judgement at all, good or otherwise.

      • no, it’s grand fun to watch you continue your trainwreck. Your ineptness causes your problems.

        you also seem to forget that I can respond to any of your posts I choose. Why you would think you can tell me what to do on my blog is beyond me, other than you do love to try to bully others.

        Still waiting for the evidence to support your claims, Amanda. Like many Christians, you make claims and when asked for what evidence you would accept to show your claim to be false, you have no idea or you are so fearful of actually answering that you refuse.

      • There’s that word evidence, again.

        Hey, JZ, you should include the word “data” in Club’s vocabulary bank, just to mix things up…

      • Yep, that word that shows that Amanda has nothing to support her claims about me being a piece of software and her claims about her god being real and agreeing with her.

        Still waiting on the evidence, data, facts, attestation, confirmation, corroboration, documentation, proof, substantiation, testament, testimonial, testimony, validation, voucher, witness, etc.

      • It is my policy to not let idiocy go unanswered on my blog.

        You are now back to making false claims. So your words earlier “It’s not that I KNOW you’re software, Club. I don’t believe you’re a robot.I simply DON’T believe that you’re human. It’s an unbelief of mine.(There isn’t enough evidence.)”

        are just more false words from a self-professed Christian.

      • As expected, you are running away again, unable to provide any evidence for your claims. I see your dad already left when asked to show his own evidence. I’m sure he’ll be back though.

        See you later, Amanda. I’ll still be here waiting for you to support your claims with evidence and wondering what nonsense you’ll say next time.

      • This is an intriguing theory!

        I’m thinking about what evidence I can present that demonstrates it to be false. I don’t have anything yet…

      • And this, JB, is called bias. I am glad to see that you have joined your daughter in her attempt to consider me less than human. As I have pointed out, those that try to make believe people are less than human aren’t reflected well in history. Do you wish to hitch your cart to that horse aka die on that hill?

  2. Apparently, the Lord smote Ray with a hernia but he’s slowly recovering from the operation.


    Praise be to modern medicine!

    • hmmm, now many of the TrueChristians I know would insist that the injury, if done to a non-Christian, was a sign of their god’s displeasure.

      Indeed, praise be to modern medicine. My husband had a congenital hernia and now has, as he says, a bulletproof groin thanks to the operation.

      • Strange though, that doubting (“if the surgeon blows it”) Ray favored the more risky hospital procedure over the miracle cures (laying on of hands and anointing with oil) prescribed in his holy guidebook.

        And stranger still that his god waited so many centuries prior to “creating” these skilled surgeons.

      • Indeed. Like the Pope, good ol’ Ray has no belief in what is promised in the bible. And one does have to wonder about a god that takes thousands and thousands of years to “create” modern medicine and does it exactly like us poor puny humans would do it.

  3. Oh look a positive claim: You are software. Oh look a lack of positive evidence. How very not surprising.

  4. Wait the positive evidence is an absolute falsehood.

    “You CLAIM [keyword]. Indeed, you are quite dishonest about [keyword]… Lies, lies, lies liar! No evidence for [keyword]!” (Note: The software asks for evidence, even to support general statements like, “I didn’t read your post about Ray.” Thus, no matter how you answer or don’t answer, she concludes you’re lying.)

    Oooooooor, maybe she doesn’t really “conclude” at all…because computers don’t reason. They just recite.

    Because her responses are cogent and understandable. They actually make sense. Yours, however, don’t.

    Well, in a way they do: you refuse to accept anything logical and will do anything to avoid facing up to the fact there is no evidence for a God, and more than ample evidence the god of the Bible is an invention of primitive humans pretending to be more important than they were.

    Furthermore, she contextually and emotionally describes food and drink. Discerning between different sensual experience. No software does that.

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