Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – two questions answered

In my last post, I wrote about abortion rights. I haven’t heard anything from any abortion opponents yet to answer my questions. However, I did note that the pastor I addressed has two questions for health choice advocates to answer on his blog. Unsuprisingly, Pastor Dave does not allow comments on his website. You can contact him through his contact page (complete with false claims about commenters being “aren’t so much interested in engaging thoughtfully” and bearing of false witness as commenters are not “genuine”, offered as excuses) , but it’s random if he bothers answering or not. I find it telling that I have no problem in allowing comments and that a pastor does.

The pastor has these two questions.

  1. When does human life begin?
  2. Who has the right to take life?

Dave believes that life begins at conception. Why? Because the bible tells him so. He also claims that “science and ethics point us”. Ethics has nothing to say about when life begins. And science doesn’t support his claim either. The concept of when life begins is still debated. Why he chooses to make unsupported claims is beyond me, other than to spread misinformation for his own benefit.

A fertilized egg cannot live on its own without support. Indeed, myriads of fertilized eggs never make it to the implantation stage and are simply expelled from the body. Myriads are aborted later by the failure to be viable. If it is killing when a fertilized egg is expelled, then this god is responsible for a very very large number of killing “children” as the anti-abortion folks want to claim per their own argument.

Dave, along with a lot of people against healthcare choice, quote the following: ““The scientific answer is that the embryo is a human being from the time of fertilization because of its human chromosomal constitution. The zygote is the beginning of a developing human.” Keith L. Moore, T.V.N. Persaud, Mark G. Torchia, Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology, 8th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2013. p.327 (happily Amazon’s look before you buy has this excerpt)

What they don’t quote is the information around this, demonstrating the usual intent to spread misinformation: “There are differences of opinion on when an embryo becomes a human being because opinions are often affected by religious or political views. The scientific answer is that the embryo is a human being from the time of fertilization because of its human chromosomal constitution. The zygote is the beginning of a developing human. Some people think that the embryo becomes human only after birth”.

Now, this is not true. There is no consensus that the embryo is a human being; in the literature it is called a human embryo, not a human being. It is considered a potential human being even by anti-abortion activists in their propaganda, not a human being. (see here) Acorns aren’t any more oak trees than a human embryo is a human being.

This god doesn’t even consider them human beings, considering its commands here:

“When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine.” – the punishment for killing a human being is not applied.

If the age is from one month to five years, the equivalent for a male is five shekels of silver, and for a female the equivalent is three shekels of silver.” – there is no value assigned for a child less than one month old, and it is not considered

15 Enroll the Levites by ancestral houses and by clans. You shall enroll every male from a month old and upward.” Males less than one month old are not considered human beings to be counted in a census and females aren’t to be counted at all.

Now, Dave goes on to excuse this god because of the classic “might equals right” argument. It’s okay for this god to murder children for the sins of their parents. It’s fine to kill women who are with child during this god’s genocides.  So much for Dave’s claim of “The Christian Gospel points to a God who unconditionally loves us and through Jesus’ death on the Crosstakes away all our guilt and covers our shame.”  Quite a few conditions given by this god, and it certainly doesn’t love those who don’t obey it.

And it’s mighty fine to harm a woman and her fetus if the husband is jealous. No evidence, just jealous.

“The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 12 Speak to the Israelites and say to them: If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, 13 if a man has had intercourse with her but it is hidden from her husband, so that she is undetected though she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her since she was not caught in the act; 14 if a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of his wife who has defiled herself; or if a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of his wife, though she has not defiled herself; 15 then the man shall bring his wife to the priest. And he shall bring the offering required for her, one-tenth of an ephah of barley flour. He shall pour no oil on it and put no frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of remembrance, bringing iniquity to remembrance.

16 Then the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord; 17 the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 The priest shall set the woman before the Lord, dishevel the woman’s hair, and place in her hands the grain offering of remembrance, which is the grain offering of jealousy. In his own hand the priest shall have the water of bitterness that brings the curse. 19 Then the priest shall make her take an oath, saying, “If no man has lain with you, if you have not turned aside to uncleanness while under your husband’s authority, be immune to this water of bitterness that brings the curse. 20 But if you have gone astray while under your husband’s authority, if you have defiled yourself and some man other than your husband has had intercourse with you,” 21 —let the priest make the woman take the oath of the curse and say to the woman—“the Lord make you an execration and an oath among your people, when the Lord makes your uterus drop, your womb discharge; 22 now may this water that brings the curse enter your bowels and make your womb discharge, your uterus drop!” And the woman shall say, “Amen. Amen.”

23 Then the priest shall put these curses in writing, and wash them off into the water of bitterness. 24 He shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings the curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter her and cause bitter pain. 25 The priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy out of the woman’s hand, and shall elevate the grain offering before the Lord and bring it to the altar; 26 and the priest shall take a handful of the grain offering, as its memorial portion, and turn it into smoke on the altar, and afterward shall make the woman drink the water. 27 When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall discharge, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become an execration among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be immune and be able to conceive children.

29 This is the law in cases of jealousy, when a wife, while under her husband’s authority, goes astray and defiles herself, 30 or when a spirit of jealousy comes on a man and he is jealous of his wife; then he shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall apply this entire law to her. 31 The man shall be free from iniquity, but the woman shall bear her iniquity.

This god has the right to kill anyone and anything because Dave believe it created them and creators have the unquestionable right of destruction. I suspect he might disagree with this when it comes to the church he preaches from, a hospital, the roads through his local town, etc. It becomes no more than special pleading on Dave’s part. It is only hypocrisy when these self-declared “pro-lifers” insist how bad abortion is. Might equals right is all they care about. Funny how even this god doesn’t believe that the fetus is made in its image, or it doesn’t care. Yep, Dave, you don’t get much more vulnerable than a fetus. Now, why does your god destroy so many if we are to believe your bible? So much for your plea for “struggling emotively”.

Considering the vileness of what you claim to believe, Dave, I know that I am far more committed to improving medical care for women and indeed everyone than you are, when you have made false claims about how allowing abortions somehow interferes with medical progress.

I am far more committed to protecting women from the bullying, abuse, sexual violence than you are since you have chosen to lie to women about abortion.

I am far more committed to standing up for asylum seekers who come to escape abuse, torture, rape and FGM from people who concur with the vile laws in your bible that you claim your god came up with.   Your god repeatedly approves of the murder of women, the murder of women who are raped and who didn’t scream lough “enough”, and forcing women to marry their rapists. It approves of enslaving people if the father doesn’t want to abandon his enslaved wife and children. We also hear little to nothing about parents who after they have had children, and who have murdered them on the pyre of their religion when they don’t get them treated for curable diseases. We only hear demands for “religious freedom” in those cases.

Such are the crocodile tears of a TrueChristian(tm).

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19 thoughts on “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – two questions answered

  1. When can a child survive on it’s own without support? If anyone is to make the argument that a fetus cannot survive without support then murder of young children you no longer want or feel you can provide for should be acceptable…right?!

    1. Length of Pregnancy Likelihood of Survival
      23 weeks 17%
      24 weeks 39%
      25 weeks 50%
      26 weeks 80%
      27 weeks 90%
      28-31 weeks 90-95%
      32-33 weeks 95%
      34+ weeks Almost as likely as a full-term baby

    2. funny how abortions don’t happen when the child can live on its own without support. Are you that ignorant or are you that desperate to lie to people in order to make them afraid and listen to your false claims? Neither speak well of you. There are quite a few people who have tried to murder their children when they decided they don’t want them anymore. That is not acceptable to me, and it’s a shame you have to try to invent a strawman that no one here believes. Why do you feel you must do that? Bearing false witness is not very christian.

      1. When did I lie? I don’t think others have to make the same choices, but in my opinion killing an unborn child is murder.

      2. that abortions are performed on children who can survive without support. You claim people are murderers, so it does seem that you think people who do not do as you are wrong, and in the legal sense. now, do you consider that women’s bodies constantly remove fertilized eggs. Is this “killing” them?

        and considering these posts on your blog, you certainly seem like a Christian, albeit a nontrinitarian one: https://seekinghisplanforme.wordpress.com/?s=jesus would you care to clarify?

      3. I have been a Christian, felt more Jewish at times, been Atheist, been agnostic and Desist. I really don’t know where I fit at this moment, so I do not choose a label for myself or wish someone else to put one one me. I leave my posts past and present active on my blog to show the journey I have been on.

        I did not say abortions are preformed on children who can survive without support.. although some may be. What I said was that young children can’t survive without support, so what is the difference between killing a young child you no longer want or feel you can support? I don’t value the unborn life less than the young child who has already been born.
        People are murderers, and yes I find murder to be wrong. I choose not to murder. A fertilized egg that is released from a woman’s body because it did not attach to the uterine wall is nothing anyone can avoid…unless you are taking morning after pills which specifically make the womb uninhabitable.

      4. Tracy, you said this “When can a child survive on it’s own without support? If anyone is to make the argument that a fetus cannot survive without support then murder of young children you no longer want or feel you can provide for should be acceptable…right?!”

        I may be wrong, but this reads as if you wish to compare children and fetuses, and try to claim that an abortion is comparable to a parent murdering a child that already exists. Is this accurate of what you meant? If so, you are indeed claiming that children who do not need support in the womb are having abortion performed on them. Now you try to double down and claim that “some may be”. If you want to spread that baseless claim, you need evidence. If you don’t have any, then you are just spreading lies and fear again to try to convince people to agree with you. This a common tactic with people who want to control others’ healthcare.

        If you can’t comprehend development, then you would ask a silly question like “what is the difference” when it comes to an abortion and a parent killing a child who exists. Do you understand the difference between an acorn and a oak tree?

        Hmmm, now you claim that a fertilized egg that doesn’t implant is something that nothing anyone can avoid, although many anti-abortion activists dont’ believe that and want a woman to be charged as a criminal if they have a miscarriage they can’t prove was an “accident”. That’s correct that people often have no control if the egg doesn’t implant, is defective, etc. However, it’s the same exact process as an abortion. Is it that you have had pregnancy problems and do not want to be thought of as a murderer? Is it more acceptable that your body does the deed and not your mind? And Tracy, atheist isn’t capitalized, so I do have my doubts that you were one since that is usually an affectation by a theist.

        I’d like ot ask you another of my questions: Do you want to help support these children and families with everything from good nutrition, good education, safe housing, counseling, etc? If not, then why not?

      5. My last reply was posted accidentally before I had completed it. I was trying to write before my commute home using my cell phone, and thought my response was lost and that I would have to start over. thankfully I don’t , but I do have to clarify things. Using my cell phone I have auto correct, but not on the tablet I am using now… I’m sure you will find plenty of grammar and spelling mistakes to call me out on. I may not know whether to capitalize certain words, but I absolutely know that at one point in my life I had no belief in any god. I may lean towards Deism now, since I think this world is too complex to believe it was all random.
        When I responded by saying some abortions may be performed on children who can survive without support I simply meant that I am not in the room during these procedures and there may be cases where that child could have survived if born at that gestation without much medical intervention. I am not naive enough to think that some women don’t come to the conclusion that abortion is their only option late in pregnancy, and therefore find a way to make it happen.
        To clarify further, I do not think any fetus, infant or young child can survive without support. There are basic necessities that need to be provided. My two young boys could not survive long without support. I feel when people make the arguement that the unborn is not a life because they can not survive on their own it is a poor one. I do see that they might just mean that they couldn’t breathe or regulate body temperature without assistance, but they are just as helpless as any other infant or young child when you are talking about survival. I believe a fetus has the same rights as any infant or child to be protected and nurtured when they can not provide for themselves. I personally feel once egg and sperm combine it is the responsibilty of all to ensure that the life created is supported as best as possible and given a chance to reach its potential.

        Now, to address your question of the difference between an acorn and an oak tree….. an acorn is the seed of the oak tree which if allowed to grow will become a tree. An acorn has everything it needs to become a tree. Given the right conditions without being disturbed it will be able to reach its potential of becoming that tree.

        I don’t agree with anyone who says a woman should be charged with a crime for having a miscarriage. I do believe there are women who would attempt to cause a miscarriage, and being caught in the act might warrant some kind of action. In most cases I would assume it would be very difficult to prove a woman caused her own miscarriage.

        Maybe I should avoid the word murder, and just say ending a life as my husband has suggested. I guess murder evokes too much emotion and gets people defensive. Hard to deny ending a life though.

        I do believe in support with nutrition, education, housing, counseling etc.

        I will end with this, I have been pregnant 7 times now, including my current pregnancy. How many were planned? 2
        Do I feel my pregnancies have occurred at the ideal time? Nope
        Will I struggle having 3 young children and a teenager? Absolutely
        Did I ever consider abortion? Not once
        Do I believe in birth control? You bet I do. I would prefer people abstain if they truly want to avoid pregnancy, but when you can prevent with 99%+ effectiveness I think that’s a wonderful thing.

      6. It’s not a spelling mistake persay to capitalize atheist. It is not a title, so it is not capitalized, like a religion is. This is why many theists capitalize it, in a rather strange attempt to equalize the two stances e.g. “you aren’t any better than us”. I never understood that.

        In that life evolves over billions of years out of trial and error dependent on environmental pressures, why do you find this complex?

        You are right, you aren’t in the room with anyone, and you have no evidence at all that fetuses that could survive outside the womb without help are aborted. That is a common lie told by abortion opponents. You are naïve enough to believe such nonsense. Could a woman “find a way to make that happen”? Sure. Have they? That’s where you need to provide evidence. And remember, your attempts to eliminate safe abortions will make sure that will likely happen since it will be that hard to get an abortion early on.

        Again, you try to conflate children with fetuses, zygotes. No one thinks that a young child can live without support of an adult. And you have brought up that strawman that no one believes to try to make children and fetuses equivalent. That is dishonest, and the constant dishonest claims by anti-abortion activists destroy any validity that they might have. It shows that they aren’t concerned with children or women or families, but with control. To claim that a woman’s rights are the same as a lump of cells that are as often as not destroyed naturally is ridiculous.

        You say that you think everyone should be responsible for all life created and support them as soon as egg and sperm are connected. This can go from just supporting laws to fund such things to strapping a woman to a bed to make sure that nothing can threaten that fertilized egg. Where do you fall on this spectrum and why? Yep, it’s an extreme position but I’ve heard anti-abortion people say it; women are no more than brood animals to them.

        That you feel that way about an acorn makes sense with your belief that as soon as an egg and sperm are connected is equivalent to a human being. Like human fertilized eggs, many are made, and not all survive.

        I’m glad that you don’t agree with those anti-abortion activists who want to consider a woman a criminal for having a miscarriage. However, those are the people who want their beliefs as law.
        When you obviously mean murder, there is little reason to not use it, especially if used to hide your real intent. Again, your opinion is that life starts at a certain time, and that is still up for debate.

        I did note that your pregnancies were later in life. You miscarried. Now, taking that risk, was it your intentional choice to possibly murder a child (I don’t know if you used birth control or not)? A harsh thing to say but it follows from the arguments of anti-abortion activists.

        You are a rare one, a thoughtful person who is against abortion. I wish there were of more of you and you were more often heard.

  2. When does life begin? Never. At no stage does “life” magically appear in a zygote, a blastocyst, embryo, or foetus. Life began on earth 3.8 billion years ago and hasn’t been interrupted since. A foetus was never inorganic and suddenly becomes organic.

  3. It’s funny that you complain about others who don’t allow comments but then you don’t post the opposing view that you say you aren’t getting nice work.

    1. well, tracy, if you had read the bit above the comment section, you’d know that comments aren’t automatically posted sometimes. In any case the first comment from a new person is always held for moderation. Now, will you apologize for your attempt to make a false claim about me or will you refuse?

    2. now, tracy, since you’ve posted once, you can post anything you’d like. Will you answer my questions? I’ve looked over your blog and see that you’ve had problems with pregnancies in the past. Do you think you have the right to tell someone to risk their lives because of your personal opinion?

  4. Their entire argumentation depends on deception. Particularly this dubious line about the “moment” of conception. Conception isn’t a moment, nor does it occur during the sexual act. It’s a process that begins with ovulation. That means that technically, every menstrual cycle is an abortion.

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