Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – I think this bizarre Christian claim deserves a post of its own

My adversary on Kaleidoscope has come out with this curious thing as an answer to my comment “It is, of course, no surprise at all that our author here won’t answer these questions either: “For some reason this god wanted to keep humans ignorant of what good and evil are. Why? Your god wanted Hitler to do what he did, since Christians claim that *everything* is their god’s will. This god repeatedly uses horrible means to do what *it* wants, a completely selfish being. This god works with evil repeatedly, intentionally releasing Satan to corrupt the christians left after this god kills everyone else (Revelation 19-21). Is this a good act? one would hope you would say not.””

“Vel:

I’ll answer that last question. You throw so much out that it’s hard to answer it all. God wanted to keep humans “ignorant” of good and evil so he could become their good and evil. But in deciding to “become like God,” they can now make their own decisions about good and evil. Unfortunately, they do that with their limited understanding, and someone like Hitler arises, disobeying God’s commands at every turn, threatening the world, and still you blame God for what he did because God didn’t stop him. It is not selfish: it’s God allowing you and me and Hitler to have free will.

And I affirm that all God’s acts are good. He has warned us about the end of the world. It’s our choice to obey or not. Yes, I know. You don’t believe the God of the Bible allows us to have a choice. Another topic on which you and I disagree.

Have a nice day, Vel.”

This, in the most curious nutshell, is why I stand against religion, the acceptance of tyranny, harm and the spread of lies that it engenders.  The above claim is weirdly like Christian Gnosticism but from Bizarro World.

This was my response

Then answer what questions you want to answer, author.  I see you are trying yet more excuses. 

So, you say that “God wanted to keep humans “ignorant” of good and evil so he could become their good and evil.”
So, the good and evil that the fruit would give knowledge about isn’t the same as the actions of this god which wants to be a good and evil unto itself?   that’s what your claim means.  Wow.  And your god is evil too.  that’s interesting to know. 
Per your invented story, this god knows a good and evil that is not what he wants humans to know.  There is a good and evil beyond your god and humans now have the truth and we can see that your god isn’t quite what it claims.
I know the history of Hitler pretty well.  If you compare it to the actions of this god described in the bible, Hitler does what this god does and what this god wants.  Hitler was a Christian, author.  He cites the bible when this god claims that the Jews deserve death for not accepting this messiah. Per your bible, Jesus Christ says that anyone who doesn’t want him as king should be brought before him and killed (Luke 19).  yes, that’s part of a parable, and the parable is about Jesus being the king of kings.  You can offer another interpretation if you can come up with one. 
Again, no free will in the bible.  “20 For it was the Lord’s doing to harden their hearts so that they would come against Israel in battle, in order that they might be utterly destroyed, and might receive no mercy, but be exterminated, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.” – Joshua 11  another good example.  We don’t just disagree, author, you intentionally lie about what your bible says and I can support my position with chapter and verse. 
You claim you confirm that all of this god’s acts are good.  Your opinion is meaningless, coming from someone who would accept any action from this god.  If your claim is right, I know good and evil and I know your god is evil; I don’t accept its attempts to insist it is a good and evil separate from the good and evil from the tree. 

17 thoughts on “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – I think this bizarre Christian claim deserves a post of its own

  1. This makes me think I really ought to write an article (I’ve been planning to write for some time now) about what I think about the story about the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

    I’m certain some of the commands in the Bible are not good and did come from God (maybe they came from prejudiced or evil men, maybe they came from demons, I don’t really know). For example, there’s one that says that the man in charge of her is able to release a woman from her vow: men are not superior beings to women and do not belong being set over her. In a society where men act like they are superior and own the women, I could understand God giving the command that, “If a man hears of a vow made by a woman in his house and forbids her to keep it, she shall be free of the guilt of breaking it, but the guilt of breaking it shall lie on his hand and accursed shall he be until he repents and strives to repair his wrong,” but to tell men they have the right to determine whether or not a woman may keep her vow – that’s not right. So, I don’t believe in the inspired infallibility of the entire Bible, but when I read the story about the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil it seems to me that, whether it is a myth or not, there is a very basic truth in it. Whether what I see in it is what the author meant to say or not (and I haven’t yet seen anyone else publish the idea I see in the story) I cannot help but see what I see. It has to do with people fearing and judging what isn’t theirs to judge (like a man thinking it’s right for him to judge whether or not his wife or daughter’s vow is good) and evil and death coming into the world because of that.

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    1. So you cherry pick what you like and don’t like about your bible and only want the parts you like to “really” come from your god. that’s what all Christians do so I’m not surprised at all.

      I’m not following your idea about the garden story. Please give more details.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. The way I see it: If someone puts together a bunch of different ideas into a book, why should I not believe some of the ideas but not others? We all can (and, what is more, must) “cherry pick” from the Bible what we like and leave what we don’t like because the Bible is a compilation of different works and different ideas, indeed, of contradictory ideas. To my mind, it is frustrating when people hold up the Bible and say, “I believe everything in this book,” – No, that’s not possible – but I think “cherry picking” is a natural part of life and should not have the stigma associated with it that it often does.

        About the Garden Story: the serpent comes to Adam and Eve and tells them that God is withholding from them something that will make them like gods, “the knowledge of Good and Evil.” It seems to me that much of the evil in the world is because people think they have and want to have the knowledge of Good and Evil: they want, not merely to know what is the right or good to be done by themselves in the moment, but to be able to judge the goodness or evil of all the actions and attitudes of others: what others do in the bedroom, how others raise their children, how others keep their houses, and so on, and so on. So I feel like the story captures what is gone wrong with the human race in general: the desire to be ‘as gods’ and to judge each other diminishes life and brings about many acts of evil.

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      2. I think some of the presentations of God in the Bible are real and I think others of the presentations of God in the Bible are devilish and disgusting and if any gods are like that, they should be defied! As I’ve said, there’s a lot of contradictory stuff in the Bible (being compiled much later from works by very different people). Some passages of Isaiah claim that God really does not care for burnt offerings and sacrifices but wants the poor, widows, and orphans to be treated justly – I believe in that God. I believe Jesus Christ is that God, and the ‘justice’ He comes to bring is not the ‘justice’ of eternal damnation but of restoring the same right order of things in which the God of Isaiah chapter one is interested. Obviously, this means I don’t believe in the god who creates creatures to be eternally damned or who cares more about killing enough lambs for him that who you treat the poor or aliens, or a host of other dark and evil things. I do agree that such a god is presented in the bible, and, as I said, such a god it would be wrong to worship (I’m working on a novel where one of the characters says exactly that to another who comes from a society where she’s taught to worship such beings).

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      3. So, again you pick and choose what you like and don’t like and you seem to want to declare that as the truth, even though it is completely based on opinion and nothing more.

        You’ve invented your god in your image, just like every other theist and Christian.

        Which passages in Isaiah are you talking about?

        Jesus Christ is the character that murders all non-christians in the supposed “end times”, Raina (Revelation 19-21). This Jesus says that everyone who doesn’t want to accept him as king should be brought before him and murdered (Luke 19). There is no justice in the bible, only a god that wants obedience and nothing else.

        I’m no more impressed by your attempts to claim some god agrees with you than I am with people like Westboro Baptist Church. You both do the same things when it comes to baseless claims about gods.

        Your religion still fails, still no prayers answered etc.

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      4. Something that I dislike is the tendency to think of the Bible as one cohesive work. If anything, it gives the power to those who compiled it to stain some people’s ideas by associating them with the ideas and actions of other people, even if those ideas and actions are plainly contrary.

        I don’t think of it ‘relate these actions to the Bible.’ I have certain beliefs – which I came by without ever hearing about the Bible – but when I read, see, or hear anything, if there’s something in it that interests me or rings true to me, I am interested in it, no matter where I find it or with what intellectual or moral sewage it has been surrounded.

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      5. Christians present it as one cohesive work, especially when it comes to claims of fulfilled prophecies. Do you consider yourself a Christian, Raina?

        You appear to be a female living in California so I doubt you came about beliefs without hearing about the bible. You seem to want to claim that your beliefs are divine in origin. Is this correct?

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      6. so, you heard them from your parents? A Christian? You seem to think you can figure out what parts of the bible are “true”. How do you think you can do that? Just because you like them?

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      7. Vel, I don’t think she’s claiming anything. It seems to me she’s just saying her beliefs came from a variety of sources. I don’t get the impression the bible is her go-to. And she hasn’t, in fact, made any claims related to being a Christian.

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      8. I’ve asked her some direct questions and they’ve been ignored. She claims that “some” of the bible is true which isn’t any different than what many christians claim.

        This is why I find her claims of “understanding” questionable.

        Liked by 1 person

      9. I wouldn’t dream of telling you, “You must think this. You must be convinced of this. I can convince you of this.” And I don’t think of it as ‘figuring out which parts of the Bible are true’. It’s more that I have this understanding of the world which feels as deep & old as my existence: that at the root of everything, there has to be Love: that, eventually, through everything, Love is strongest & will win: that’s why I believe in a God of Love: that’s why I believe God became Man & fought with & beat death.

        I always want to learn: to grow in, develop, & correct my understanding of reality: and I try always to be open to truth wherever it can be found, no matter what lies or other rubbish might be found around it. I mean that. Anywhere. I’m open to seeing truth in Buddhism, or Hinduism, or the mythologies of the ancient world, or a compilation of religious works with rubbish and lies & out-right evil laws thrown in, or scientific fiction/myths or science itself or… anything, really.

        So, when I see something: Could this be true? Could something I think I know be wrong? Could I think one tenet follows from another, but it really doesn’t, and my understanding needs to be refined?

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      10. So you are a Christian? “Love is strongest & will win: that’s why I believe in a God of Love: that’s why I believe God became Man & fought with & beat death.” that you believe the jesus story in the bible?

        why would something fight with what they established in the first place?

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