Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – I think this bizarre Christian claim deserves a post of its own

My adversary on Kaleidoscope has come out with this curious thing as an answer to my comment “It is, of course, no surprise at all that our author here won’t answer these questions either: “For some reason this god wanted to keep humans ignorant of what good and evil are. Why? Your god wanted Hitler to do what he did, since Christians claim that *everything* is their god’s will. This god repeatedly uses horrible means to do what *it* wants, a completely selfish being. This god works with evil repeatedly, intentionally releasing Satan to corrupt the christians left after this god kills everyone else (Revelation 19-21). Is this a good act? one would hope you would say not.””

“Vel:

I’ll answer that last question. You throw so much out that it’s hard to answer it all. God wanted to keep humans “ignorant” of good and evil so he could become their good and evil. But in deciding to “become like God,” they can now make their own decisions about good and evil. Unfortunately, they do that with their limited understanding, and someone like Hitler arises, disobeying God’s commands at every turn, threatening the world, and still you blame God for what he did because God didn’t stop him. It is not selfish: it’s God allowing you and me and Hitler to have free will.

And I affirm that all God’s acts are good. He has warned us about the end of the world. It’s our choice to obey or not. Yes, I know. You don’t believe the God of the Bible allows us to have a choice. Another topic on which you and I disagree.

Have a nice day, Vel.”

This, in the most curious nutshell, is why I stand against religion, the acceptance of tyranny, harm and the spread of lies that it engenders.  The above claim is weirdly like Christian Gnosticism but from Bizarro World.

This was my response

Then answer what questions you want to answer, author.  I see you are trying yet more excuses. 

So, you say that “God wanted to keep humans “ignorant” of good and evil so he could become their good and evil.”
So, the good and evil that the fruit would give knowledge about isn’t the same as the actions of this god which wants to be a good and evil unto itself?   that’s what your claim means.  Wow.  And your god is evil too.  that’s interesting to know. 
Per your invented story, this god knows a good and evil that is not what he wants humans to know.  There is a good and evil beyond your god and humans now have the truth and we can see that your god isn’t quite what it claims.
I know the history of Hitler pretty well.  If you compare it to the actions of this god described in the bible, Hitler does what this god does and what this god wants.  Hitler was a Christian, author.  He cites the bible when this god claims that the Jews deserve death for not accepting this messiah. Per your bible, Jesus Christ says that anyone who doesn’t want him as king should be brought before him and killed (Luke 19).  yes, that’s part of a parable, and the parable is about Jesus being the king of kings.  You can offer another interpretation if you can come up with one. 
Again, no free will in the bible.  “20 For it was the Lord’s doing to harden their hearts so that they would come against Israel in battle, in order that they might be utterly destroyed, and might receive no mercy, but be exterminated, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.” – Joshua 11  another good example.  We don’t just disagree, author, you intentionally lie about what your bible says and I can support my position with chapter and verse. 
You claim you confirm that all of this god’s acts are good.  Your opinion is meaningless, coming from someone who would accept any action from this god.  If your claim is right, I know good and evil and I know your god is evil; I don’t accept its attempts to insist it is a good and evil separate from the good and evil from the tree. 

33 thoughts on “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – I think this bizarre Christian claim deserves a post of its own

  1. This makes me think I really ought to write an article (I’ve been planning to write for some time now) about what I think about the story about the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

    I’m certain some of the commands in the Bible are not good and did come from God (maybe they came from prejudiced or evil men, maybe they came from demons, I don’t really know). For example, there’s one that says that the man in charge of her is able to release a woman from her vow: men are not superior beings to women and do not belong being set over her. In a society where men act like they are superior and own the women, I could understand God giving the command that, “If a man hears of a vow made by a woman in his house and forbids her to keep it, she shall be free of the guilt of breaking it, but the guilt of breaking it shall lie on his hand and accursed shall he be until he repents and strives to repair his wrong,” but to tell men they have the right to determine whether or not a woman may keep her vow – that’s not right. So, I don’t believe in the inspired infallibility of the entire Bible, but when I read the story about the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil it seems to me that, whether it is a myth or not, there is a very basic truth in it. Whether what I see in it is what the author meant to say or not (and I haven’t yet seen anyone else publish the idea I see in the story) I cannot help but see what I see. It has to do with people fearing and judging what isn’t theirs to judge (like a man thinking it’s right for him to judge whether or not his wife or daughter’s vow is good) and evil and death coming into the world because of that.

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    1. So you cherry pick what you like and don’t like about your bible and only want the parts you like to “really” come from your god. that’s what all Christians do so I’m not surprised at all.

      I’m not following your idea about the garden story. Please give more details.

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      1. The way I see it: If someone puts together a bunch of different ideas into a book, why should I not believe some of the ideas but not others? We all can (and, what is more, must) “cherry pick” from the Bible what we like and leave what we don’t like because the Bible is a compilation of different works and different ideas, indeed, of contradictory ideas. To my mind, it is frustrating when people hold up the Bible and say, “I believe everything in this book,” – No, that’s not possible – but I think “cherry picking” is a natural part of life and should not have the stigma associated with it that it often does.

        About the Garden Story: the serpent comes to Adam and Eve and tells them that God is withholding from them something that will make them like gods, “the knowledge of Good and Evil.” It seems to me that much of the evil in the world is because people think they have and want to have the knowledge of Good and Evil: they want, not merely to know what is the right or good to be done by themselves in the moment, but to be able to judge the goodness or evil of all the actions and attitudes of others: what others do in the bedroom, how others raise their children, how others keep their houses, and so on, and so on. So I feel like the story captures what is gone wrong with the human race in general: the desire to be ‘as gods’ and to judge each other diminishes life and brings about many acts of evil.

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      2. I think some of the presentations of God in the Bible are real and I think others of the presentations of God in the Bible are devilish and disgusting and if any gods are like that, they should be defied! As I’ve said, there’s a lot of contradictory stuff in the Bible (being compiled much later from works by very different people). Some passages of Isaiah claim that God really does not care for burnt offerings and sacrifices but wants the poor, widows, and orphans to be treated justly – I believe in that God. I believe Jesus Christ is that God, and the ‘justice’ He comes to bring is not the ‘justice’ of eternal damnation but of restoring the same right order of things in which the God of Isaiah chapter one is interested. Obviously, this means I don’t believe in the god who creates creatures to be eternally damned or who cares more about killing enough lambs for him that who you treat the poor or aliens, or a host of other dark and evil things. I do agree that such a god is presented in the bible, and, as I said, such a god it would be wrong to worship (I’m working on a novel where one of the characters says exactly that to another who comes from a society where she’s taught to worship such beings).

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      3. So, again you pick and choose what you like and don’t like and you seem to want to declare that as the truth, even though it is completely based on opinion and nothing more.

        You’ve invented your god in your image, just like every other theist and Christian.

        Which passages in Isaiah are you talking about?

        Jesus Christ is the character that murders all non-christians in the supposed “end times”, Raina (Revelation 19-21). This Jesus says that everyone who doesn’t want to accept him as king should be brought before him and murdered (Luke 19). There is no justice in the bible, only a god that wants obedience and nothing else.

        I’m no more impressed by your attempts to claim some god agrees with you than I am with people like Westboro Baptist Church. You both do the same things when it comes to baseless claims about gods.

        Your religion still fails, still no prayers answered etc.

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      4. Something that I dislike is the tendency to think of the Bible as one cohesive work. If anything, it gives the power to those who compiled it to stain some people’s ideas by associating them with the ideas and actions of other people, even if those ideas and actions are plainly contrary.

        I don’t think of it ‘relate these actions to the Bible.’ I have certain beliefs – which I came by without ever hearing about the Bible – but when I read, see, or hear anything, if there’s something in it that interests me or rings true to me, I am interested in it, no matter where I find it or with what intellectual or moral sewage it has been surrounded.

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      5. Christians present it as one cohesive work, especially when it comes to claims of fulfilled prophecies. Do you consider yourself a Christian, Raina?

        You appear to be a female living in California so I doubt you came about beliefs without hearing about the bible. You seem to want to claim that your beliefs are divine in origin. Is this correct?

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      6. so, you heard them from your parents? A Christian? You seem to think you can figure out what parts of the bible are “true”. How do you think you can do that? Just because you like them?

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      7. Vel, I don’t think she’s claiming anything. It seems to me she’s just saying her beliefs came from a variety of sources. I don’t get the impression the bible is her go-to. And she hasn’t, in fact, made any claims related to being a Christian.

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      8. I’ve asked her some direct questions and they’ve been ignored. She claims that “some” of the bible is true which isn’t any different than what many christians claim.

        This is why I find her claims of “understanding” questionable.

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      9. I wouldn’t dream of telling you, “You must think this. You must be convinced of this. I can convince you of this.” And I don’t think of it as ‘figuring out which parts of the Bible are true’. It’s more that I have this understanding of the world which feels as deep & old as my existence: that at the root of everything, there has to be Love: that, eventually, through everything, Love is strongest & will win: that’s why I believe in a God of Love: that’s why I believe God became Man & fought with & beat death.

        I always want to learn: to grow in, develop, & correct my understanding of reality: and I try always to be open to truth wherever it can be found, no matter what lies or other rubbish might be found around it. I mean that. Anywhere. I’m open to seeing truth in Buddhism, or Hinduism, or the mythologies of the ancient world, or a compilation of religious works with rubbish and lies & out-right evil laws thrown in, or scientific fiction/myths or science itself or… anything, really.

        So, when I see something: Could this be true? Could something I think I know be wrong? Could I think one tenet follows from another, but it really doesn’t, and my understanding needs to be refined?

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      10. So you are a Christian? “Love is strongest & will win: that’s why I believe in a God of Love: that’s why I believe God became Man & fought with & beat death.” that you believe the jesus story in the bible?

        why would something fight with what they established in the first place?

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      11. I wouldn’t say that God made or established death in the first place. Death is something that went wrong.

        I believe that the man Jesus is God and that he was killed on a cross and rose from the dead afterwards. If that’s the ‘Jesus story in the bible’ then, yes, I believe that.

        Am I a Christian? I do call myself one. I sort of know someone who doesn’t like to call herself one because of the judgmentalism and hypocrisy and other evil things associated with religion in general and with Christianity, and I understand where she is coming from, but, personally, I care about the etymology and structure of words, and since I believe in the Christ and Christian is ‘one who follows Christ,’ yes, I am a Christian. But that means to mean that I follow Love – that I follow One whose love embraces all, that would go to a cross to die for his enemies, that teaches us to do unto others as we would like done to us and to lay down our lives for others, the One who would make all mankind one family of love. It means that I yearn and aspire to be like that – like him.

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      12. If you believe in the bible, your god did establish death. However, you’ve stated you pick and choose what you want to claim is true.

        There is no reason to believe the stories about Jesus for the same reason that you don’t want to believe in the story that your god cursed humans with death. They are nonsense.

        No surprise you do call yourself a Christian. Christians make up their god in their image just like you. Your version is a little better than most but spreading belief in the imaginary does no one any good.

        You just ignore where your Jesus is a horrible being. Even in the bible, this god/man never went to the cross for his enemies; only those chosen by him to be able to accept him were supposedly saved. JC says this when he is explaining why he uses parables to confuse anyone he doesn’t like. This god/man murders anyone who doesn’t except him, in that bible you pick your way through.

        The golden rule was around for far far longer than your christian nonsense. You aren’t being a Christian by thinking about others, you are just being a decent human being. No religion has the right to claim that the golden rule is theirs and theirs alone.

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      13. How about this for loving His enemies? “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.”

        I don’t mean to imply that I’m a Christian for thinking about other human beings! I just brought that up because it is claimed in the Gospels that Jesus taught that. You bring up parables as statements that He taught the opposite in some form. So I’m just pointing out that there’s more to what He’s reported to have taught than “I will murder anyone who doesn’t accept me.” I don’t think that was the point of the parable at all, and that one cannot analyze Middle Eastern parables in that way. But, be that as may, he is definitely reported to have taught the opposite.

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      14. I know that the bible has him saying that.

        We also have:

        ““To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 13 The reason I speak to them in parables is that ‘seeing they do not perceive, and hearing they do not listen, nor do they understand.’” – Matthew 13

        “26 ‘I tell you, to all those who have, more will be given; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and slaughter them in my presence.’”” Luke 19

        “11 Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse! Its rider is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in[h] blood, and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, wearing fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule[i] them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, “King of kings and Lord of lords.”

        The Beast and Its Armies Defeated
        17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of the mighty, the flesh of horses and their riders—flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.” 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against the rider on the horse and against his army. 20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed in its presence the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. 21 And the rest were killed by the sword of the rider on the horse, the sword that came from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.” Revelation 19

        how are middle eastern parables supposed to be analyzed and how do you know? If we cannot take these words at face value, your god has failed.

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      15. “The Bible is our core religious work, the basis of our faith” has never been a tenet I believed. I don’t think it would be a surprise, if there were a God and he did become man and walk among us, if people should fail to understand him fully, or paint their own expectations on him, or put together a collection of works that has both truth and falsehood in it. So I don’t know what you mean by ‘your god has failed.’ Failed in what?

        As for analyzing parables: have you ever come up with a story or comparison before that had a point but in which someone took the comparison too far and more literally than you had intended? I’m also of the opinion that if someone says something clear, and then someone makes a story or comparison or analogy, that one should interpret the story or parable in light of the clear statement. But, of course, it’s always possible the Gospels aren’t a perfectly accurate account of what Jesus said, and that some of the statements attributed to him are false (I’m not saying this possibility is on “my” side, simply that it is a possibility.)

        As for the first quote you have here, from Matthew 13, my understanding of it is the following: those who have knowledge can receive more knowledge. Those who have no knowledge but think they know something must first learn that they do not know before they can start to know properly. Thus, Jesus speaks to those who do not have enough knowledge to perceive and listen and understand in parables in order to save them from mis-perceiving and mis-listening and mis-understanding.

        My opinion on Revelations is that it’s a very wierd piece of literature. It’s all-over-the-place, and I’m not sure what I think of some of it, and it’s difficult to interpret. (Also, for your information, there was something of a debate about whether it belonged in the canon in the first several centuries. It is still not read in the liturgies of at least some of the Liturgical Rites.)

        You ask me regularly: how do I know God exists and is like I claim him to be?

        I will not claim that I know in such a way that I can point out how I know and expect other people to understand and know, too. It’s hard to go a lot deeper than that I’ve always had this sense that the world has to be made by goodness and love: that goodness and love must inherently be more real than evil and hate. Or, one might say, I believe the best is true. Someone once said to me something on the lines of, “How can you think you, of all the people who have ever lived, know everything about God?” The answer is: I don’t. I think I know some things, and if I find something better than what I know, then I will believe that also. I’ve been asked, too: “How do you know Zeus and Odin and Thor and all the rest don’t exist? How do you know to choose Jesus and not them?” The answer is: I don’t know that things very like Zeus or Odin or Thor don’t exist. I just know that love is what made the worlds and what is ultimately strongest, and thus that the God of Love is the King of the Gods and will have the final victory in all things. I choose to believe the best I know and to believe that, if I am wrong, that, too, will be revealed to me in good time. But I suspect this is a poor answer.

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      16. if your god can’t make itself clear and, being omnipotent and omniscient, can’t keep humans from screwing what it supposedly wants up, then it has failed. You might claim free will, but if you want to believe your bible, even partly, this god has repeatedly interfered already, so why not make things clear and not have people dying over its evident impotence?

        Matthew 13 says nothing of the sort. You have entirely rewritten it to fit with your invented god. This “Thus, Jesus speaks to those who do not have enough knowledge to perceive and listen and understand in parables in order to save them from mis-perceiving and mis-listening and mis-understanding.”

        is not this “Then the disciples came and asked him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 He answered, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 13 The reason I speak to them in parables is that ‘seeing they do not perceive, and hearing they do not listen, nor do they understand.’ 14 With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah that says:

        ‘You will indeed listen, but never understand,
        and you will indeed look, but never perceive.
        15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
        and their ears are hard of hearing,
        and they have shut their eyes;
        so that they might not look with their eyes,
        and listen with their ears,
        and understand with their heart and turn—
        and I would heal them.’”

        Jesus is saying the exact opposite of what you wrote. He uses parables to make sure that people won’t understand so he doesn’t have to heal them.

        “Also, for your information, there was something of a debate about whether it belonged in the canon in the first several centuries. It is still not read in the liturgies of at least some of the Liturgical Rites.”

        So, if it is not to be in the canon, again, why has this god done nothing? It seems to be part of liturgical rites: http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Liturgy%20of%20the%20Mass%20in%20the%20Book%20of%20Revelation.htm

        I can understand why priests and pastors avoid it. It makes this god out to be a lunatic, just like the other parts of the bible they never read out loud. They depend on ignorance to shape their god the way they want.

        It seems that you do like to think that your version of god is the best one and he’s in charge.

        I’m not omnipotent but if I loved something or someone, I wouldn’t cause it pain out of inaction.

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      17. In some fields, for example, weather, there’s this understanding that none of us understand what’s going on very well, or what the far-off ramifications of even the gentlest change might be.

        Someone once asked me why God doesn’t make His existence hopelessly obvious to everyone, and I think this is why: God want humans to have the choice to believe in Him or not to believe in Him, to accept Him, or to reject Him.

        Also, when I say that all power belongs to God, I don’t mean what some people seem to mean. He can’t perform contradictions. For some reason, my mind doesn’t seem to be thinking about how to write this very well, but I’ll say one thing anyways: I recently saw a tweet that said that the greatest evidence against God is the cruelty and deaths suffered by so many children. I might almost be able to understand where this is coming from. I mean, no evil has ever cast doubt on my understanding of God – something I’ve come to realize the more disturbed I have become by evil. I cannot make evil make sense. I wrote a poem once that goes, “Where can I find the answer/The resolution/To earth’s unfathomed horror?” Yet I would have no easier a time explaining or understanding or accepting evil if, by a thousandth chance, I didn’t believe in God.

        I am really bad at saying what I mean today, but I will say this: with regards to the canon, I know several larger Eastern and Oriental rites are like that. There are so many, I do not know very many details about all the rites, but I do know their rites are oldest, while the Latin Rites (Roman Catholic, Anglican, Episcopalian) are much newer and have changed much more recently (and often).

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      18. Yep, in some fields there are indeed reasons to think we don’t quite understand what is going on. That is what happens with humans and vastly complex systems. This doesn’t work with theist claims since they claim that there is something omnipotent, omniscient and all-loving that supposedly is in control.

        Your reason why your god is playing hide and seek doesn’t work if you believe your bible, Raina. If it doesn’t dare want anyone to know it exists “for sure”, then the whole OT is a lie since this god is constantly showing itself to believers and they have no problem with doubting it (see the Israelites during the exodus). Indeed, if one believes the bible, then Satan had no problem at all in doubting this god and it was best buddies with this god. JC says that one should believe in the miracles if one doesn’t believe in any other way. Again, seems that this god has no problem in presenting evidence to remove all doubt (see Thomas).

        When you say all power belongs to god, what else can you mean what you literally said? Why can’t your god perform contradictions? It’s all-powerful, right? Why would it be limited by logic? It isn’t logical that it can raise the dead either, but that seems to okay for Christians to accept.

        That you don’t think that this god’s inaction when it comes to allowing children to die is evidence against its existence is disturbing. It is certainly evidence against it being a loving being. That no evil has impacted upon your need to believe in this entity is alarming. If I were omnipotent, I’m damn sure I wouldn’t let kids die. And I am doubly sure I wouldn’t kill a child for the actions of its parents like your god supposedly has done per the bible. Evil is not hard to explain at all without a god. It is what comes of a world with limited resources and the selfishness of humans when it comes to their tribes. No god or satan needed. Us humans have to get ourselves out of our own problems. The claims of a merciful and loving god fail from Eden on out.

        The various orthodox rights are little older than the Latin ones..maybe. Christians wanted the insanity of Revelation added to the bible. They got it and you are stuck with it, including where this god kills everyone not a Christian, and then has to let Satan loose to corrupt believers to have one more blood bath.

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      19. No, I’m not stuck with it. I’ll probably come back and reply more later, but, as I told you before, I have no problem thinking parts of the “Book” are false. You may think it’s inconsistent for me to think that some of the ideas or events recorded in a compilation of works have some truth to them and that others of these ideas and events have no truth to them, but it is what I think. As for God having “all power” I mean by that the power to do consistent, actual things: perhaps other people define power differently than I do and I should stop using the word, but I have never thought that God is capable of what I call “non-things” such as logical contradictions, for example. I don’t understand where that notion comes from.

        To address “inaction when it comes to allowing children to die is evidence again it” – I suppose I understand – I do understand, in a way – where you are coming from. I think I don’t have the understanding of “omnipotence” you think I do – it’s hard to say what I think very well. I don’t think this world is all that exists. I think God loves all His creatures, including the ones who do the most horrible things, and wants to provide them with a way to be good and happy forever. And, perhaps one of the reasons the evil in the world doesn’t make me doubt God is this: my God or no god, the evil is still completely inexplicable and unacceptable. It must not reign supreme. So, I believe evil will be destroyed – that all will be made right – that justice will be done. I suppose I could say that I believe that Love and Justice are Supreme, and therefore God: and the evil in the world does not make me doubt this confidence, does not make me doubt that Love and Justice are best and must, someday, have the final victory over all: and this is why it does not upset my belief in God, in Justice and Love. I don’t think this world is all there is, but my notion of Justice isn’t throwing unbelievers into the fiery hell forever and ever. It might constitute in letting those who defend or commit atrocities suffer a “fiery hell” of “This is what you would do or have done to others” until they can see how evil and bad that is and want to change: want to love and do justice.

        As for what you say about “Evil is not hard to explain at all:” I don’t contest your explanation as a description of facts, but it does not cause it to make sense to me. Maybe my ingrained core belief in Justice is too deep and all-pervading for it to make sense: nonetheless, evil is simply not acceptable – to me. It must be made right.

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      20. foundational means fundamental. There is nothing to say that foundational beliefs are always “unfounded”. There is also nothing to say that first axioms are “always” unproven. Axioms, depending on the context, are what are taken as true, either for the sake or discussion or that are considered self-evident.

        and again, why not now?

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      21. Did you take a class in Philosophy or Geometry or Numbers Theory or something like that? Wasn’t one of the first things covered that you have to start with an axiom or first principle that you don’t prove? Otherwise you go around and around in a circular argument. So, yes, axioms are what is taken as true, either for the sake of discussion, or that are considered self-evident, or that are proved, but first axioms are those axioms from which you start but which you do not prove; you simply assume.

        As for, why not now for Justice?

        That’s a question I can’t answer and which I regularly ask myself. But I don’t throw out my foundational belief because there are things about it I don’t understand – questions I wouldn’t even think to ask if I didn’t believe it that I do not yet have answers for. It’s a question I wrestle with in my writing and fiction; a question sometimes I think I see glimpses of the answer, but which has never yet been fully, finally satisfied – but I know I don’t know everything. The fact that I don’t yet have a full answer as to why not now is no proof that there will not be Justice for and to all.

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      22. I went back and looked at what we’ve been taking about. I also did some more digging about axioms.

        So, “”A proposition that commends itself to general acceptance; a well-established or universally conceded principle; a maxim, rule, law” axiom, n., definition 1a” which the OED has as the definition of an axiom. I’m using the word in this way, that an axiom is considered as part of reality. I don’t consider it as something that could be true for sake of argument.

        So in logic, axioms are the premises one begins from. They have to be true to end up with an true answer at the end of a syllogism. If one begins with axioms that you must only assume are true, then you have no idea if the answer is true or not.

        As I pointed out your claim here “. A foundational belief is always “unfounded,” just as first axioms are always unproven.” Isn’t true. I found the following to be helpful:
        “Deductive reasoning runs into something called the Münchhausen trilemma, which says that if you keep asking for justification over and over (why? why? why? why? why? why? …) you will end up with one of three possible fates: either you will get an infinite regression of justifications (the “whys” never end), you will end up going in a circle (circular reasoning) (why X? Because Y? Why Y? Because Z. Why Z? Because X), or you will get a “self-evident” truth (why X? Because X is so obviously true, just look at it!) at which (backwards) deduction stops.
        The last option is what the original meaning of an “axiom” was — something self-evident. This makes sense when we’re talking about truths about the real world, and it may have been how Euclid approached axioms: his postulates of geometry were things that seem “self-evidently” true about real lines and figures (which is part of the reason why his fifth postulate received so much attention after him, because it is not necessarily self-evident: it depends on the behavior of lines under extension to infinite distance, something we have no intuitive experience with, and even today we are not sure what happens, as it touches on deep issues in cosmology related to the geometry of the universe). In mathematics now, though, our theories are taken as creating or defining abstract worlds/entities, so our axioms are said to be true by fiat, but they serve the same role as taking that arm of the trilemma: to provide a base so that our deduction neither infinitely regresses (we cannot write down infinite justification) nor goes around in a circle (we can make anything go in a circle), a starting point to develop our theory.”

        So, no I haven’t taken a class that said “the first things covered that you have to start with an axiom or first principle that you don’t prove” I can understand you don’t have to prove something but as I indicated above, this leaves you without an answer you can use. And I know that all axioms aren’t supported.
        I know you can’t answer my question “why not now?”. For you, it appears to be easier to make up excuses or just say “I don’t know” rather than consider your god doesn’t exist at all which explains things tidily. You have a need to believe this: “justice has to be given”, but you have no way how it is given or why it would be given or by what it would be given.

        You’re right, that you don’t know everything doesn’t mean that somehow somewhere by something justice will be meted out. We have no proof. However, we have evidence and probability, which do indicate that there won’t be justice for and to all. This god has done nothing yet, so there is a steadily increasing probability it does nothing at all.

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