Unsurprisingly one of the folks over at Answers in Genesis, aka cowards who want to attack other theists and non-theists, have quite a strawman argument over at their website, trying to convince people to agree with them. Of course, they are cowards since they don’t allow comments on their lies.
But we can provide them some here! This is from Bodie Hodge, an mechanical engineer, who thinks he is ever so special. Why do creationists get engineers and scientists who have no grounding in evolutionary theory? I would hazard a guess that it is because they are susceptible to the argument from authority, and think that anyone with a degree, and who agrees with their myths, should be believed. Sorry, dears, it doesn’t work like that. I wouldn’t take my child to a diesel mechanic and I would take my car to a pediatrician, no matter how much I liked them.
This will be an exercise in how some Christians lie, desperate in their need for external validation.
“Are you tired of all the evil associated with the philosophy of atheism — Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, and so on?1 After all, most murderers, tyrants, and rapists are not biblical Christians, and most have rejected the God of the Bible. Even if they claim to believe in the God of the Bible, they are not really living like a true Christ follower (who strives to follow God’s Word), are they?
Do you feel conflicted about the fact that atheism has no basis in morality (i.e., no absolute right and wrong; no good, no bad)? If someone stabs you in the back, treats you like nothing, steals from you, or lies to you, it doesn’t ultimately matter in an atheistic worldview, where everything and everyone are just chemical reactions doing what chemicals do. And further, knowing that you are essentially no different from a cockroach in an atheistic worldview (since people are just animals) must be disheartening.”
Unsurprisingly, we have Bodie starting off with a lie. There is no “philosophy of atheism”. There is also no morality of atheism. Atheism is a conclusion that there are no god or gods (theists are atheists when it comes to gods other than their own). It has no worldview attached to it. Atheists have all sorts of different worldviews. I’m mostly an Epicurean in worldview. Some are far-right idiots, some are far left liberals, some are Randians, etc. And some atheists are megalomaniacs who happen to get into power. Now, since I’m an atheist, and not a megalomaniac, and have no desire to commit genocide, that is not part of atheism. It’s part of megalomania. Bodie tries to claim that all atheists are evil in the moral sense. He has no evidence and thus is ignoring his own religion when it says do not bear false witness, e.g. don’t lie.
We also have Bodie claiming that murders, etc aren’t “Biblical Christians”. Now, you may ask, what exactly is a “biblical Christian”. That is a term used by Christians who want to pretend that only their version is the right version of Christianity. This also allows them to create the circular argument that only biblical Christians don’t do certain things because they are biblical because they don’t do certain things. However, Bodie forgets that his god kills humans, kills children for something they didn’t do, demands genocide and commits it, etc. These must objectively good things if this god does them and if objective good morality comes from this god as many, if not most, Christians claim. If they are not good if a human does such things, then our Christians have a morality based subjectively on who does an action, not the action itself. Since many Christians do claim that that their god has some right to do with humans what it wants, they end up with a morality that is no more might equals right.
So, no, Bodie, we are not tired at all. You have nothing more than lies and strawmen.
“Are you tired of the fact that atheism (which is based in materialism,2 a popular worldview today) has no basis for logic and reasoning? Is it tough trying to get up every day thinking that truth, which is immaterial, really doesn’t exist? Are you bothered by the fact that atheism cannot account for uniformity in nature3 (the basis by which we can do real science)? Why would everything explode from nothing and, by pure chance, form beautiful laws like E=MC2 or F=MA?4”
Atheism is not based on materialism, though they can be often accepted together. Atheism is based on logic and reasoning. If there is no evidence for a claim, there is no logic or reasoning to believe that claim. Bodie disbelieves in other gods very likely because of no evidence. So, is his disbelief illogical and unreasonable? I suspect he would deny that. One often finds arguments like this offered by theists because they have difficulty in considering their claims from an outsider’s point of view. John Loftus has some great books on this idea.
There is plenty of material truth. Theists often get into this problem that they need to claim that their god is “immaterial”, and thus they must claim that “truth” must also immaterial since they have no evidence for their god. By doing so, they end up in solipsism, which is always amusing.
Again, since Bodie has no idea what atheism actually is, he also tries to claim that atheism doesn’t explain the uniformity of nature. Atheism wouldn’t do that; but the sciences can. Physics is fine with the universe being uniform, and the Big Bang Theory provides an idea why it is that way. We have no idea if the BBT was by chance or not. Creationists also terribly ignorant about the most basic science; the BB is not an “explosion” (even a mechanical engineer should known that but willful ignorance and lies do make a man silly). Physics can be as apparently eternal and universal as any god is invented to be. There is no “random chance” as creationists claim in the universe. We don’t have a cat in the hat bouncing around altering reality. And formulas aren’t “beautiful”. They just are. Poor Bodie, he tries to evoke emotion on math and physics to imply some magical god is needed.
So, no, Bodie, not tired of anything you mention since all you claim is false.
“Do you feel like you need a weekend to recoup, even though a weekend is really meaningless in an atheistic worldview — since animals, like bees, don’t take a day of rest or have a weekend? So why should atheists? Why borrow a workweek and weekend that comes from the pages of Scriptures, which are despised by atheists? Weeks and weekends come from God creating in six literal days and resting for a literal day; and then the Lord Jesus resurrected on the first day of the week (Sunday). And why look forward to time off for a holiday (i.e., holy day), when nothing is holy in an atheistic worldview?”
Ah, the appeal to emotion from a cult member. This is nothing new at all. “Come with us, you’ll feel better”. Alas for Bodie, I have had a great weekend. I got to use a chainsaw for the first time since a branch was ripped of our tree by the windstorm. I also had a great steak and was working on my art for a show I was accepted to.
It’s always hilarious when a Christian tries so hard to claim responsibility for things they had nothing to do with. Weeks and weekends do not come from their god, which ever version they believe in. Those came from unions (watch the conservative Christians clutch their pearls). Other religions have days they claim are holy, but no one outside of that religion cares about them. Christians can’t even agree on what their holy day should be, so it’s very silly of Bodie to claim that his god is responsible.
And with his hilarious claim, then I guess we should be thanking the moon, Tyr, Odin, Thor, Frey/Freya, and Saturn on every other day of the week. I of course look forward to any day I can do what I want. No god or Bodie needed.
“For professing atheists, these questions can be overwhelming to make sense of within their worldview.For professing atheists, these questions can be overwhelming to make sense of within their worldview. And further, within an atheistic worldview, atheists must view themselves as God. Essentially, atheists are claiming to be God. Instead of saying there may not be a God, they say there is no God. To make such a statement, they must claim to be omniscient (which is an essential attribute of the God of the Bible) among other attributes of God as well.5 So by saying there is no God, the atheist refutes his own position by addressing the question as though he or she were God!”
No, these “questions” aren’t overwhelming at all for atheists. Bodie relies on ignorance, lies and fear to try to get people to agree with him and give him that external validation he so craves.
Most atheists, except for maybe the aforementioned megalomaniac atheists, do not think we are gods. We don’t pretend that we can affect the universe with magic, like, ahem, some people we know.
It is no problem at all to know that Bodie’s god and all of the other gods that humans have invented don’t exist. There is no evidence to show that the essential events that these gods supposed did happened, and we can show that entirely different things happened on any particular date that a theist might want to claim that these divinely caused events did happen. Bodie’s god is not some worm under a rock on Ceti Alpha V. It has quite distinct attribute per the bible and Christians, so it wouldn’t be hard to miss. I don’t have to be omniscient at all. And considering what the bible says, neither is this god.
“Do you feel conflicted about proselytizing the faith of atheism, since if atheism were true then who cares about proselytizing? Let’s face it, life seems tough enough as an atheist without having to deal with other major concerns like not having a basis to wear clothes, or no basis for marriage, no consistent reason to be clean (snails don’t wake up in the morning and clean themselves or follow other cleanliness guidelines based on Levitical laws), and no objective reason to believe in love.”
Now, Bodie has to repeat the theist claim that somehow atheism is a religion/faith: “a personal set or institutionalized system of religious(relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity) attitudes, beliefs, and practices” Faith: 2): belief in the traditional doctrines(a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief) of a religion – merriam webster He does this to try to convince a non-theist to not show that his beliefs are baseless.
His desperation shows through quite nicely here; “Let’s face it, life seems tough enough as an atheist without having to deal with other major concerns like not having a basis to wear clothes, or no basis for marriage, no consistent reason to be clean (snails don’t wake up in the morning and clean themselves or follow other cleanliness guidelines based on Levitical laws), and no objective reason to believe in love.”” His attempt to claim we atheists also have no reason to wear clothes or get married, or be hygienic, and not to be in love are quite histrionic. Let’s see: frostbite, secular (originally based on religion) laws to follow that silly but still have to be followed, infection and my own delicate sense of smell, and well, love doesn’t depend on Bodie or his god. That’s something we humans seem to have as an emergent property from our brains, and honestly, who cares if being in love is subjective or objective? Bodie and his god aren’t needed since all humans do it (except for the megalomaniacs again, and probably psycho- and sociopaths) Humans care for each other; and we can be pretty sure other animals do too. My cats seek me out even when I don’t have food for them or a warm spot to lay. They like to be around me. I like to be around those I love. Who is to say it’s not the same? Oh and snails clean each other’s shells. Nerite snails are notable for this, but others do it too. It might just be because they are hungry and there is algae there, but they all get cleaned.
BTW, Levitical laws about cleanliness weren’t about hygiene, they were about offending this god (aka pathetic men) with human stuff, like menstruation and poop (we don’t want god to walk in our poop “12 “You shall have a place outside the camp, and you shall go out to it. 13 And you shall have a trowel with your tools, and when you sit down outside, you shall dig a hole with it and turn back and cover up your excrement. 14 Because the Lord your God walks in the midst of your camp, to deliver you and to give up your enemies before you, therefore your camp must be holy, so that he may not see anything indecent among you and turn away from you.” Deuteronomy 23) These were the ignorant people who thought that skin diseases could be cured by bird blood.
“Are you weary of looking for evidence that contradicts the Bible’s account of creation and finding none?6 Do the assumptions and inconsistencies of dating methods weigh on your conscience when they are misrepresented as fact?7 Where do you suppose those missing links have gone into hiding? Surely the atheist sees the folly and hopelessness of believing that everything came from nothing.
In fact, why would an atheist care to live one moment longer in a broken universe where one is merely rearranged pond scum and all you have to look forward to is . . . death, which can be around any corner? And in 467 trillion years, no one will care one iota about what you did or who you were or how and when you died — because death is the ultimate “hero” in an atheistic, evolutionary worldview. Of course, as a Christian I disagree, and I have a basis to see you as having value.”
Bodie does try hard again when he tries to convince people that there are no contradictions in reality about the bible’s two contradictory creation stories. That’s funny since they can’t even keep the order of creation straight in the bible itself. Alas, Bodie is lying again. We have plenty of evidence of evolutionary change and that organisms have gotten more complex as time has gone by, depending on environmental stressors. We do not show animals starting out how they look now. Alas, again, Bodie depend on lies and fear to try to get atheists to agree with him. We have plenty of “missing links”: List of transitional fossils – Wikipedia
Dating methods aren’t wrong, but they do have limitations; and it’s grand fun to see creationists accept them for things they think support their nonsense e.g. the shroud of turin, dates for lumber in Egyptian buildings, etc. Dating methods are often dependent on physics, and if physics is consistent, Bodie’s magic god can’t exist. That’s why theist often get upset with dating, and when the dating methods show that their claims are wrong when they make up a date that their god did something.
Since we don’t know if everything came from “nothing”(and do define that), there is a problem with Bodie’s lies again. It seems that physics has no problem with something coming from a vacuum. And there is nothing morally bad about coming from nothing. Bodie tries so hard to play pretend that the universe is “broken” if it is the way it is which is always funny when creationists also love to claim how perfect the universe is in its “fine-tuning”.
Just because we die doesn’t mean we have no value. Why would it? Death is part of life, we die to make room for others. They have value too. I don’t need to pretend that I somehow deserve to exist forever. It’d be fun if I could, but until I get that titanium body that I can download my brain into, it’s not likely to happen.
As for Christians thinking that humans have value, well, their god certainly doesn’t; so if they support its actions, they don’t. It has no problem in killing humans constantly, either intentionally or by hold back its supposed healing magic. This god only values humans in its need to be stroked.
Now, we get where Bodie thinks that by spewing bible verses, atheists will be so overtaken by their god that we’ll agree with Bodie. His religious book is no more true than any other theist’s. He cannot show that what he has invented from his magic decoder ring is any more true than the next Christians who contradicts him.
He tries so hard to claim that atheists can’t believe in truth or lies. Ummm, why? We can see reality and point out when someone is misrepresenting it along with other humans. Christians don’t agree on what is their truth or what are heresies, so there’s no reason to believe them. They just can’t seem to get that great big stamp of god approval. Some authority that can’t get it through to its believers what it wants.
As usual, our Christian wants to define what a “consistent” atheist is since he knows he is lying about is. He must make an atheist that does what he want, a very classic strawman. Atheists do not tell you that you have no value. That’s a lie from Bodie.
Bodie wants to claim original sin makes you need his cure. But why would a god who promised never to hold children to account for their parent’s sins, hold every human in account for two people who weren’t their parents (and didn’t exist)? Happily, I do not feel that anyone should die for me and what I do.
Bodie is right, he has a need, aka a reason, to proselytize his faith. Not that JC commanded him to, but that he can’t stand to be shown wrong. He must be right in all things, and well, he isn’t. He needs someone to continually tell him he is right.
Atheists have a reason to point out that there are no god or gods. Believe in them causes existential harm because of the ignorance that humans claim to be “objective truth” when it is not. And we have plenty of basis for logic and reason. It’s how the world works. No gods involved that we have to shoehorn into things to invent a job for magical best friends who agree with you and supposedly protect you.
Of course, the last salvo is more fear and ignorance. He must invoke the “end times”. Since Christians have to reup their subscription to the end times ever generation, they aren’t show much luck.
The most logical response is to laugh at Bodie and his complete failure.
I do note that poor ol’ Bodhie doesn’t follow his god’s commandments. They don’t stop at the first ten, dear Bodie. I’ll save you a seat in hell.