Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – a discussion with a Catholic

I’ve recently been crossing swords with a Roman Catholic, Christina Chase. She has a blog and I commented on a poem she wrote. Then we ended up chatting in the comments. This gave me a chance to become more familiar with Roman Catholicism and Roman Catholics. This is evidently the last of the discussion (her prior response). Ms. Chase is under a deadline for her next book.

It took some research that I wanted to keep, so I’ve plopped it up here. As usual, much of this is a repeat of tearing apart of the usual apologetics.

And thus it commences:

So, Christina, what did happen if you weren’t just one more Christian who went back to her religion when she realized she was mortal?  It seems that you left your religion, perhaps because of your illness, realized that it wasn’t any different and decided that you needed an afterlife since one wasn’t that great.

And nice attempts to claim you are trying to be “fair” to me when you also try to claim that I’ve lied e.g. “made crooked”.  It is no surprise at all that you will pick and choose what to reply to.  That is typical for Christians when hard questions are answered and is your right.  If subjects are addressed in your books, then you should be able to tell me where. 

You did claim that atheists only make emotional choices.  Shall I quote you?  “I do sense that you may have experienced some real pain or grief, and if that is so, you have my sympathy. Pain and grief can easily make us angry. I’m sure that you must be aware that you are coming across as a stereotypical angry and embittered atheist, but you may not understand that this is not productive to your cause. I won’t treat you like a stereotype, however. You are a unique, individual, unrepeatable human being.” 

Indeed, Christina, you repeatedly make false statements about atheists “ I enjoyed being an atheist because it was so simple, and because, with no meaning to life, I could simply do as I please.”

“Then, something unexpected happened that caused me, as a lover of truth, to no longer be an atheist. “

Unsurprisingly, you do again try to claim that I’m just another “angry and embittered atheist”.  Funny how that is repeated even when you claim that you are sure I’m not.   Why is this?  For me, it seems to be this is all you have to try to imply that atheists never can have any other reason.  And yep, atheists do have to often tell theists tht they didn’t become an atheist out of anger because people like you keep trying to spread that lie.  You are one of the atheists who finds she must make that assumption. 

Do explain how a being that harms others as your god is described do to in the bible is not a “vicious bastard”?   Does genocide qualify? Does drowning animals to get revenge on humans qualify?  I use words to have impact not because of my feelings.  I knew that you would find the term vicious bastard applied to your god to be questionable.  I did it to ask you these further questions.  What would you call someone who committed genocide, killed children for what their parents did, allowed a family to be killed so he could show off to an enemy?   Since none of this happened, I cannot be emotional about it.  But I can certainly look at it as an empathic human, much the same as I can empathize with characters in things like Star Wars where genocide happen. 

I have corrected you.  Did you listen?   Well, you repeated the same nonsense about atheists. 

Let’s look at your words about love “You and I know that you can’t scientifically prove the nonexistence of a personal God. You may believe that the burden of proof falls on me, but do you use a method of doubt in every aspect of your life? I don’t think so, because if you did, you would not have written that you can see love through the actions of human beings. Humans can lie, humans can even lie with their actions. I’m sure you don’t have loved ones in your life get a brain scan to make sure that the right parts of their brain are lighting up to give evidence of what we call affection before you believe that they love you. Maybe you do want to do that, I don’t know. Like it or not, sane, intelligent, normal human beings go by faith quite often in our daily lives — not blind faith. Faith based in reason.” 

So we have you claiming that people who love me can lie to me, and that I somehow have to have faith that they don’t to believe them.  I do not, since I can see that they love me. It is not faith, it is evidence.   I never said cannot, Christina as you claimed “I believe what I see,” you continued. “and one can not see love easily.” “   Go back and read it again “Humans can lie. Per the bible, so can your god. And nice to see you try to claim that people are lying to me if they say they love me. It’s not faith, it’s trust. I believe what I see. And one can see love easily. If you can’t tell if someone loves you, that is your problem, not mine. Your belief aka faith in a magical god is not based on reason. It is based on hope and desire for something better than you have now.”

Did you intend on misrepresenting what I said?  I hope not. 

You have said this directly “As I told you, I was briefly an atheist. I was a thorough, true atheist for less than a year. Then, something unexpected happened that caused me, as a lover of truth, to no longer be an atheist. “  The “as a lover of truth” doesn’t need to be in there.  Why is it?  No, my love of truth didn’t lead me to atheism.  Evidence did.  I followed the evidence; I didn’t have a presupposition of some “truth” to fit the evidence to.   The claim of a “lover of truth” implies baselessly that others aren’t concerned with the truth aka if this happened to you and you didn’t accept it, then you aren’t a “Lover of truth”. 

Many theists of all faiths claim what you do, feelings of some “infinite”.  Now, do you believe them if they do not agree with the source?  Why or why not?  I do have to wonder that this feeling does seem to be assigned to your god, since that is what is familiar with you.  What shows that this feeling is from the version of the Chrsitian god you grew up with rather than some other god? 

Feelings of awe seem to happen to most people.  Why think it is from some entity?  Humans can make feelings appear with just electrical current.  No god needed.  And now you try to claim this “do not expect you to understand this or to even want to understand this in your current state.”

What is my “current state”, Christina?   Your assumption of anger and bitterness? 

I did not contradict myself, Christina.  I do not do what I want, because I do not believe in free will, and I know that somethings I want aren’t the best for me or society.  I don’t think you know what I mean at all.  Penn Jillette contradicts you, and the Christian nonsense that non-chrisitans just don’t want to obey their god, that we are ravening thoughtless creatures.

“So to continue, you also wrote: “We are just as compassionate, law-abiding and caring as any theist.”That’s a good point and I do not disagree. “

Do you agree with me on this?  You said this “I enjoyed being an atheist because it was so simple, and because, with no meaning to life, I could simply do as I please.”   You seem to think again that only you have real love, Christina “ I did what pleased me (thankfully, it pleases me to be generally good) without thinking about any kind of eternal me or what it actually means to love divinely.”

If you think I need the benefit of the doubt, then I have to again wonder about your assumptions about atheists. 

Atheists aren’t nihilists, Christina.  Many Christians feel that they need to claim that to vilify us.  Humans do give meaning to life.  Our worldviews that we’ve created do.   No gods needed.  Yes, I do mean that me, as an atheist who has meaning, shows that your claim that meaning only comes from your god is wrong.  You have yet to show that there is “divine love” or that your god supplies it.  You seem to be only inventing that term to feel special and superior.   Yes, I do think that it does take arrogance and a neediness to declare that I need you or your god to love and be loved.  You are doing it right where you claim “God is needed to know the depths of divine love” 

I am here to demonstrate that Christians aren’t above reproach, and that they make harmful and false claims and to confront them about those claims.  Society has mistakenly assumed that gods are true and that if someone claims worship something, that makes them better than anyone else.  Religions have encouraged this by making baseless claims on how they are the source of all love, truth, goodness, etc.  I aim to kick the legs out from under those false claims.  Will I be successful?  Well, religion is losing ground because people can speak out now, and not be completely terrified that some theist will try to kill them, lock them up, etc for being “heretics”. 

I have shown that the claims of Christians about having some objective truth are false.  I believe that you need to hope that some magical afterlife exists.  You are rather like Joni Eareckson Tada whom I read about when I was young.  I can very much understand that you must hope that there is a reason for you being disabled.  I think you would be better off dealing with reality than a forlorn hope.  However, I can understand that it is a harsh reality and a hope is very appealing. 

No, no help or harassment needed.  Only an example to push against. 

If we are limited, then what makes you think you have the right answer when claiming a god exists?

I think Rumi is a very interesting poet. I’m also interested mysticism but alas have yet to see evidence that any of the claims of theistic humans are true.  It’s all humans trying to convince others that their opinions are supported by some powerful being. 

There is no evidence of your god or that it is outside of space/time so we don’t need to consider human confusion evidence or not.  We just have to see that as soon as humans can’t show evidence, then their gods immediately become mysterious and vague.  Just how does an entity be outside of space/time, know when to start something, Christina?  Christians just try to say “we don’t understand but my god has to exist”.  A non-christian has to point out “no your god doesn’t have to exist and why shouldn’t we understand?”

Saying you are a member of the Catholic Church doesn’t mean much anymore since schism is there too.  Every Christian wants to claim that they are the “catholic” followers of Christ.  None can show this to be true. 

“We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,”615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”616”

Seems like your sect is indeed saying what you say it is not “Contrary to the common belief that you expressed as nonsense, the Catholic Church does not teach that everybody who isn’t Catholic is absolutely going to Hell. (See Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 846-856.)”  For most of its existence, the RCC claimed “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” Then Vatican II came along and evidently God was mumbling at some point, since it was declared “though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.”” 

Then we have Roman Catholics saying this “Can only Catholics go to heaven? – The Leaven Catholic Newspaper”  “I think we would still say there is no salvation outside the church,” he continued, “but what we mean by that is that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, as he said.“He’s it. So, if there’s salvation, it’s in him.“If I am saved, I am saved by Jesus Christ and no one else.” 

The problem here, as I’ve mentioned before, is that Christians do not agree on how JC is “the way, the truth and the life”.  Each of you has your belief that your version is the only way to correctly follow Christ and you define “grave sin”.  “But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves”.  Christians do show that they hate each other when they say that they deserve eternal torture.     

The Lumen Gentium also says “Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”   This is also interesting “THE HOLY SPIRIT’S PRESENCE AMONG OTHER CHRISTIANS Eleuterio F. Fortino” on the vatican’s website. 

Your claim that you haven’t made a study of miracles seems very strange for someone who said she prayed for her god to heal her miraculously.  To not want to know why it fails seems unusual.  Why does one need to be a specialist in miracles to discuss them?   You seem to be trying to take refuge in the “sophisticated theology” idea, that there has to be some truth in baseless claims, if one just studied it “enough”

I find it quite specious when you say you don’t know if you’d be happier in a whole body.  It’s rather like someone saying “I don’t know if I’d be happier if I won a million dollars”, when that person has no chance of willing a million dollars.  It’s a fox and the grapes argument. 

Your life is easy thanks to human ingenuity.  And one can know about patience and empathy without suffering constant UTIs, etc.  I used to work for an an agency that regulated nursing homes and have read many case histories on people who are afflicted as you are.  

Yes, Christina, with no exceptions.   As I have already stated, it does have be for believers and surprise, that doesn’t happen either.   And there is not one place where JC says these prayers have to be per this god’s will aka plan aka reason to know that there is no free will in your bible. 

This is one of the big reasons I do take the time to show how ignorant Christianity is.  You must always blame the victim for this god’s failure.  Someone doesn’t have the “right” faith, prayer, sect, etc and this god won’t heal them.   Consider this, if I was omnipotent, and omniscient, I would heal them.  I’d heal you.  I wouldn’t need misery or pain to teach people.

Yep, there is indeed that story where JC, like any charlatan, cannot do miracles because people don’t believe enough.  I’ve had plenty of Christians claim that their god needs powered up and I’ve also had plenty of wannabee mystics claim that they can’t do their  magic with unbelievers around.   They ran away too, just like JC. 

So much for omnipotence.   And do read your bible, Christina:

Then Jesus said to them, “Prophets are not without honor, except in their hometown, and among their own kin, and in their own house.” And he could do no deed of power there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them. And he was amazed at their unbelief.” Mark 6

and the same story in “57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “Prophets are not without honor except in their own country and in their own house.” 58 And he did not do many deeds of power there, because of their unbelief.”

still doing miracles in both.

I’m finding it amusing that you now only seem to have complaints about how I cite verses.  I’ve read the chapters too and yep, they are still about healing physical problems.  Yep, the chapters mention other things, but not in the context of what is being claimed about physical healing and answering every prayer with what is prayed for.  Those verses in John 14 are still about healing and any prayer being answered: “Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; but if you do not, then believe me because of the works themselves. 12 Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If in my name you ask me[e] for anything, I will do it.” John 14. 

No one has said you must respond to me or respond quickly.  You are responsible for what  you do.

66 thoughts on “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – a discussion with a Catholic

  1. You find Rumi to be an interesting poet, too? I’ve seen quotes by Rumi, and they’re quite interesting, but I’ve never seen anything more than quotes.

    (By the way, I, personally, do not think that ‘thinking’ and making decisions emotionally is any more likely to lead one wrong or anymore to be looked down upon than most any other method of thinking or deciding.)

    Like

    1. “(By the way, I, personally, do not think that ‘thinking’ and making decisions emotionally is any more likely to lead one wrong or anymore to be looked down upon than most any other method of thinking or deciding.)”

      Making emotional decisions can lead to thoughtless decisions made out of passion, not consideration. If you make decisions made on baseless nonsense, then people die. Witness the stupidity of the anti-vaxxers, anti-mask people and those who want to pretend the covid virus doesn’t exist since their personal opinions are then found wrong.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Passion can also lead to right decisions, like saving a child from being run over by car. And deliberated reason can lead to making wrong decisions. I’m not saying emotional thinking and decision-making is better than a more logical approach. I think both have strengths and weaknesses.

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      2. It’s not. It’s just a one word for intense emotion of various sorts. And I think people can make good decisions as well as bad ones based off intense emotions and I think the same is true for any method of thinking/decision making.

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      3. okay. However, I do not see emotion being the only reason that someone would save someone else.

        where has someone made a “bad decision” based on facts, Raina?

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      4. I’m not saying it’s the only reason someone might save someone’s life. I’m saying it is a reason, and a reason which so-to-speak act quicker.

        Where the facts are misunderstood or misinterpreted, very often.

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      5. so it’s only if the facts are “misinterpreted”. And no it’s not “very often”. All decisions must be made on facts or they will not be the right answer.

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      6. Yes, and no. All decisions are made on facts; it’s a fact to be able to run or for a child to be in a street. But deliberated reasoning and logic can definitely lead one to wrong conclusions or actions, just as emotions can be mis-oriented.

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      7. “Yes, and no. All decisions are made on facts; it’s a fact to be able to run or for a child to be in a street. But deliberated reasoning and logic can definitely lead one to wrong conclusions or actions, just as emotions can be mis-oriented.”

        give an example of this “But deliberated reasoning and logic can definitely lead one to wrong conclusions or actions, just as emotions can be mis-oriented.”

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      1. it’s a great source to find all sorts of books. You can find old science fiction and fantasy, books by various philosophers, etc. I read most of the Edgar Rice Burroughs books on project gutenberg.

        Liked by 1 person

  2. Alan needs attention: https://christianapologeticsministry.wordpress.com/2021/05/31/atheists-at-it-again

    Well, this looks like fun. Yep, I replied to the claims of Christine Chase. I’ve also responded to Alan before. He uses the same failed arguments here too. But I’m bored and this can fill some time.

    “Always be wary of someone who’s commenting on something that they’re becoming ‘more familiar’ with; never respond to something that you aren’t totally familiar with, you may end up creating a lot of straw man arguments. Also, slightly offended, Club has replied to me, a Catholic, several times. Unfortunately, Club decided not to post Christina’s responses on her own post- frustrating.”

    Poor Alan, he can’t take the time to read his fellow Catholic’s posts. Darn. Alas, I’ve not created any strawman arguments, though Alan really wishes I had.

    “It’s always a writers choice in regards to who they respond to. Not having a response, or not providing a response, isn’t the same as there being no response that can be given.

    Alan seems to have missed this bit “That is typical for Christians when hard questions are answered and is your right “ In this case, there is no response that can be given. If there was, one would assume that the Christian would give it if it were an answer. To claim otherwise is rather childish, “but but, I have an answer, but I’m not going to tell you.” Of course, Alan wants an excuse to avoid the problems his religion has.

    Again, Alan does seem to need to lie, and claim that when Christine claimed I have only emotional reasons, there was no “hint” of this. That’s very funny considering what Christine said ““I do sense that you may have experienced some real pain or grief, and if that is so, you have my sympathy. Pain and grief can easily make us angry. I’m sure that you must be aware that you are coming across as a stereotypical angry and embittered atheist, but you may not understand that this is not productive to your cause. I won’t treat you like a stereotype, however. You are a unique, individual, unrepeatable human being.”

    The attempt to “interpret” what Christine said is quite a lovely example of how Christians are poor interpreters. It does explain their bible interpretations. It’s grand to see such excuses being made. Christine does nothing more than claim she somehow “senses” something to find an excuse to try to ignore my points.

    Unlike what Alan is trying to cover up, theists always claim that atheists don’t want to follow their god since they want to do what they want. Christine used that exact stereotype in her claim about being an atheist. She was not sharing a “subjective truth” about herself. Alas, Alan, theists themselves have shown you to be a liar in your own right.

    Christine did repeat the claim, but alas Alan finds he must claim otherwise. How strange.

    I do love Alan’s usual apologetics for his god. “God caused life, God has sovereignty over life- it’s that simple. If no life would exist without God, what right do we have to try to convince God that we deserve a greater extent of it? I always find at strange when an atheist suggests that God is objectively evil, but cannot provide evidence for objective morality in atheistic materialism. Why is killing bad? Where in science do we find the notion of a right to life? Let me expand: what makes humans, above all of creation, valuable? Sentience? Emotion and intelligence? Creativity and will? Whatever it is, the reason can’t be provided as an objective fact, only that particular atheists opinion.”

    He tries the claim that his god can kill since it created. Hmm, nothing more than might equals right there. I don’t claim that this god is objectively evil. It is evil, and evil and good are indeed subjective. We see that since poor Alan has no morals except might equals right, that his god can do anything that it says a human shouldn’t do. That’s a subjective morality, dependent on what something is rather than the objective action. Humans aren’t valuable above all “creation”. That’s Alan’s opinion. Morals come from humans, the ones that don’t help civilization work are tossed, the ones that do are kept. Humans have had morals long before the nonsense invented by some ignorant people in the eastern Med.

    I love Christians who are apologists for a genocidal character. They are no more than sycophants to a tyrant. It’s even better when Christians can’t agree on what morals their god even wants.

    Faith and trust are not complete synonyms. They have different connotations. In this context, faith is believing without evidence. Trust : assured (characterized by certainty or security) reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something and faith: belief and trust in and loyalty to God(2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion – Merriam-webster.com

    Alas, Alan can’t show in my words a circular reasoning. He had to make one up on his own, a lie. I never said this “- I trust people that love me, they love me and so I trust them.” It is great to see yet one more Christian who can’t see love. His analogy is indeed cheap and fails. It’s rather easy to tell the difference between a actor and real life. I’m sorry that Alan can’t seem to do that. He has to pretend everyone has an ulterior motive it seems. That’s sad. He has to pretend only his god “really” loves him.

    Unsurprisingly, Alan doesn’t understand yet something else that would show that not only Christians are lovers of truth. Like Christine, he wants to play the game of comments that only lovers of truth are Christians. In this context, that one should believe in Christine’s experience without question, Alan and Christine would indeed think that atheists, muslims, Sikhs etc aren’t loving the truth. They both believe that they and only they have the truth aka the Catholic Church. It’s also fun to watch someone try to claim that there is some objective truth but somehow we might not “interpret” it correctly. As I expected, Alan does gives lie to his own claim: “So the Sikh can interpret the truth his way, I my own- we aren’t both correct, but we can both claim to love the truth subjectively, even if we don’t have that objective truth.”

    Again, we have following the evidence, and finding out where it ends, and Alan and Christine who assume that they have the truth and loving only that.

    The existence of multiple religions doesn’t disprove all religion. That one religion has a hundred+ different sects and can’t show that any of them are true, disproves Christianity quite nicely since neither Alan or Christine can do what their messiah promised every Christian can do.

    Most, if not all, religions claim the same thing Alan tries. “The Bible says that creation declares God’s glory”. Nice to see that Alan points out how missionaries damn people, if this god is real. “and those who never heard the Gospel will be judged by their own conscience” and Um, yes it does “Assigning these feelings of wonder and awe to a different deity doesn’t suggest that there’s no one divine source.” Since Christians can’t show that their god is any more real than the next. Alan is indeed arguing for his version of his god at this point. I love the disingenuousness.

    Alas, Alan’s usual willful ignorance bites him again. Humans can cause emotions with electrical current. A quick search results in papers and articles “The modulating effects of brain stimulation on emotion regulation and decision-making”, “Brain Stimulation’s Complex Emotional Effects” (Discover Magazine), “Subthalamic Nucleus Deep Brain Stimulation Alters Prefrontal Correlates of Emotion Induction”, “Brain stimulation may increase control of emotional actions”, “Is deep brain stimulation effective and safe for patients with obsessive compulsive disorder and comorbid bipolar disorder?“, etc. It’s hilarious to see Alan lie about how the brain works. It’s those neurons that make the mind and the thoughts/emotions within it. There is no objective standard of regality, majesty or beauty. Alan fails again. And if there were? We are all humans with brains, no magic god or soul needed. No brain, no mind. If there were a “soul” that interacted with the brain, then we should be able to sense it with other electrical apparatuses. We can’t. Despite a couple of hundred years of searching, no soul.

    I do not believe in free will and yep, I may not be entirely freely rejecting Alan’s and Christine’s and every other theist’s god. Alas, Alan and Christine and every other theist can’t show a god exists at all, they don’t even agree with each other. However, I have the scientific method that helps cut through any biases and gives facts. Alan and Christine have none. Per their bible, their god has already chosen who can accept this god and who can’t, those who can’t damned through no fault of their own. No free will there either. Tsk. Alan and Christine aren’t really Christians, they are just puppets of their god, a way to masturbate.

    Alas, Alan keeps on lying. He agrees that atheists have meaning to live, but he lies when he says that we need his version of his god to love and be loved. Happily, that’s not the case. That’s just a greedy Christian needing to pretend his god is responsible for everything and not being able to show it. “Still, God is required in order for my lungs to ‘be’, faith in God is not.” Nope, not at all. Again, a selfish greedy theist saying this, that’s all. The meaning to life for a Christian is stroking off their god. It’s not “the” meaning to life; here isn’t a single one. We all have our own.

    Christians do wish to think they are above reproach when they try to spread their false claims. Alan is right here “It isn’t harmful to claim that God exists, unless we’re talking about some subjective view of harm that atheists don’t like us saying it.” Yep, what they claim will happen to people from their god is indeed subjective. There is no evidence for it at all. So their lies that some god will punish someone does harm them by making them think that they are wrong.

    Then we have more lies from Alan. No, his god isn’t the source of love. No evidence for that at all. And yep, other religions make that claim too, with the same lack of evidence. Suicide isn’t wrong, so of course religious countries have less since they have the lie of hell to keep people from doing it. No one will go to hell for taking their own life. And funny how plenty of Christians commit suicide. I guess this god doesn’t help you through all things.

    Religion is losing ground and that is why Christians are desperately trying to convert people even other Christians. Yep, is truth based on how many people believe something? Most Christians think yes it does. They always trot out the billions of Christians. Funny how most of them are sure that most of those Christians aren’t Christians at all. I would affirm if Christianity gained ground. And Alan is right, the number of believer is meaningless on how true the religion is. So as soon as Islam over takes Christianity, he has a problem. The number of Christians has decreased every year for a while now. We still have the problem in the US where people like Alan and Christine lie about atheists and make them out to be less than trustworthy. Happily, that will eventually end. Nice appeal to popularity, Alan.

    “As a disabled person myself (CP), I can tell you that disability doesn’t cause us to hope for Heaven. In fact, it should do the opposite. I should hate God for intending to create me with disability, but I don’t. God created me with CP in order that able, successful atheists are left without excuse when they claim they had no reason to believe.”
    Hmmm. Alan does have a point, if he is right, his god made him this way. What a pathetic god. I certainly have no reason to believe in a god like that ,and if it were real, I wouldn’t worship such an ass. So, Alan’s god hurt him *and* Alan’s god failed to provide evidence of itself.

    Religion, as I stated, is humans trying to convince others that their fantasies are true. Alan and Christine failed to do that, and atheist still have our reality. Yep, a reality with no need for a god and that does not exist by “chance”. Alan just can’t get past that lie. He also, well, let him say it “I’ll take my belief that my logic and reason rests upon my mind being created by an omnipotent, omniscient God for the sole purpose of understanding the reality He caused, thanks.” Funny how he abuses that mind and spreads lies.

    Here, Alan shows that he can’t show his claims are true: “What would evidence for a being that exists outside of time/space look like? Would the evidence also be external of time and space? Could we even find it?” Indeed, what would evidence for that be? Yet, Alan and Christians claim that they do have evidence.

    Alan himself has no evidence that his god exists or is outside of time/space. His bible does put his god right here in time and space. If there is no time, then there is no time no sequence of events to do anything. Again, the incoherence of a god fails the believer. That the bible doesn’t say anything about a trinity, well, that was made up by incompetent translators and Christians are stuck with it in their cult.

    Since we see no evidence of god, then yep, it does mean that said thing doesn’t exist in actuality.

    Finally, we come to Alan claiming that Catholics aren’t exclusive (they are and claim no salvation outside theh church), and that Catholics don’t disagree. We know that just from TrueCatholics™ disagreeing with the Pope. Yep, the dirty laundry of the RCC got exposed when they got a pope who didn’t agree with the conservative Catholics. Bummer.

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      1. It seems the site owner/admin is off somewhere with a Bishop, so there seems little to no moderation. For now!
        It’s a case of making hay while the sin(sic) shines, for as sure as Mary was not knocked up by a ghost I will eventually be banned.,
        However … ’til then!

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  3. I wandered into this post. I can see why a Christian apologists would eventually step away from correspondence with you. Unfairly, I do not have her side reflected, but if it is equal In rhetoric and tangential conversation, it maybe safe to say both of you walked away without any gain. So many Catholic-Atheist conversations start out with false hubris that genuine communication is impossible. Science and theologians have failed to convince me of man’s ability to define evolution with any certainty. Psychology, sociology, archeology and all the soft sciences have provided retrospective pieces of applied human experiences. The collective shows us massive moral and spiritual failings amongst both faithless men and men of great faith. I will comment on one theme which interested me regarding freedom. Who is freer, the atheist or the Catholic? Neither. Both have to find there way in an amoral world confronting spiritual or moral challenges along the way…whether concerning the temporal or the eternal, both have to at the end of the day look themselves in the mirror. The Bible itself is in my view the most misunderstood and abused book in history. Context and literary devices ignored and superficial generalities left quoted with reckless abandon, perhaps supported by equally fragile google search references. Without lived experience – atheist and believers will struggle to stop the carnage of toxic dialogue. Catholicism as it once was is dead. It has never stopped evolving…despite attempts to cling to man made absolutes. Atheist have unproven faith statements as well when probed – some more well grounded then other. Life for this Catholic has been better then life without faith. Life for this Catholic has also been better when my faith goes beyond the rigid confines of Catholic traditions and accepting of no religion or man can idolized. True freedom…moment by moment, discernment, evaluation, decision, action….perhaps even some principals refinement along the way. The benchmarks…to judge oneself…will always be tricky….talk about tangents! May your atheist or faith driven life fulfill your life and those around you with love and meaningful purpose.

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    1. You do have her side. Just go out to her blog. I linked to it so you have no excuses. If she removed my posts, well, then we know the character of a certain Catholic.

      I did not walk away nor did I end up with no gain. I was able to show that, yet again, Christians make excuses for their god in order to keep clinging to their belief that they are special.

      Hubris is “exaggerated pride or self-confidence” (merriam webster). And no one cares what you have been convinced of or not. Your argument from personal ignorance is nothing new. Evolutionary theory has been defined with no problem.

      Unsurprisingly, you seem to be the one with the hubris, in your need to try to pretend you are better than anyone else. Not impressed with that or your attempts to be “deep”.

      You are a Christian, just like the others, sure that you and you alone know what it “really” means. Yes, I’ve seen the nonsense about how the context is ignored, literary devices ignored, and alas, no Christian agrees on what is what. You all make up your own version of what should be taken literally, what should be considered metaphor, etc. You ignore the context when convenient. You juat make up what you want in a religion in you own image. Nothing surprising about that at all. Then you prance around looking down your nose at everyone.

      This is little more than the “sophisticated theology” argument, Ret. That no one except you knows the deepity of the bible. You try to claim that no one has ever researched things as deeply as you, with your attempts to lie and claim no one has done more than a google search.

      You are the only “true” Catholic, just like the billions of others.

      Sorry, dear, you aren’t the only one with “true freedom”. You just need to pretend you are.

      And poor thing, for all of your claims, you can’t show any of these “unproven faith statements” you accuse others of having.

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      1. It seems your “gain” was taking down rhetorically two Christian bloggers within a bubble of internet space that will not move the meter in any visible manner one way or the other. I am by know means making claims of theological grandiosity. It is well known that the public and the internet take superficial knowledge out of context in all fields: politics, religion, science, medicine, etc. I by far am a neophyte in Christian mysticism. Yes, I shared my subjective experience based on my lived experience. While yours rallies against a “supreme creator” and mine rallies for an “unknowable God” neither of us has a scientific method to firmly explain the Big Bang, the universe beyond our vision, and at the most granular level, the smallest denominators of what is matter. I do see a tendency for your responses to be overly attacking and a tinge of self-righteousness poorly masked in what you believe to be rigorous intellectualism and science. You must have realized decades ago that he scientific method is limited by our scientific advances and much is to be revealed for as long as this planet provides us a habitable environment. You made so many biased assumptions about my friendly visit to your blog. I will make some about you…no, that would be a serious waste of time. I don’t mind at all a shrinking Christianity, especially if what is left in its wake is a more just, hopefully, and equitable world. Whether it be by people exercising atheistic ethics and morality or people truly living a divine life (to the best of their ability), I don’t care what the driving motivation is for each individual. Every argument you have lodged is well known terrain, nothing original or new this dialogue. The biggest of them all is the presence of indiscriminate suffering and its random viciousness. The magnificent universe ever unfolding pitted against terrible human tragedies and human suffering have always served as polar camps for disbelief or belief. About the only thing we could debate is the historical Christ. He did walk this earth and spread a political/religious belief. The formation of Catholicism over the centuries portrays mankind struggling decade after decade to carry the message right down to today.
        Do I need a God? Whether I do or not is irrelevant. My need for one or not would not make it so. My denial of one for a time did not threaten my existence or self-confidence, nor create an unbearable identity crisis. It did, however, for me, provide comparison periods. Life for me is better with belief in so many ways. I do not wear Christianity on my arm and publicly proclaim Christ in my circles. However, my response to people in good times and in bad is bricked for the better with my personal belief as a guiding principle and inner strength. I would say, if you had the pleasure of meeting spiritually grounded and humble believers of any faith, you might witness glimpses of the beauty of living a spiritual life. If I wished anything for you, it would be for people with that gift to be in your orbit, regardless of religious affiliation. I love science, philosophy, and psychology. They simply are incomplete for my understanding of life and it’s meaning. Take care and may your dialogue with other Christians and atheist be mutually kind and understanding despite dialectically opposed positions on the issue of what cannot be seen…the leap of faith that separates believers from non-believers.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. RG, your Christianity hates believers of any other kind; your god says kill believers of any other religion. So don’t give me this bullshit of how you are so interested in meeting believers in any faith.

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      3. and yet one more Christian chooses to lie about what their bible says. Congrats, RG. You manage to ignore your god’s saying don’t lie too.

        I do love Christians who lie about their religion. Catholicism claims that everyone else has a lesser version of their supposed “truth”. And we can’t forget what the bible says. As always, a Chrsitian will whine about how dare anyone mention the OT, but alas they forget that their Jesus has no problem with it.

        “Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)”

        “Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)”

        “Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)”

        “The Beast and Its Armies Defeated
        17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of the mighty, the flesh of horses and their riders—flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.” 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against the rider on the horse and against his army. 20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed in its presence the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. 21 And the rest were killed by the sword of the rider on the horse, the sword that came from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.” Rev 19

        “26 ‘I tell you, to all those who have, more will be given; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and slaughter them in my presence.’”” Luke 19

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      4. I would point you to the Beatitudes and blessed are the peace makers. A really good Jewish scholar can walk you through the Old Testament mix of political and religious writings and the context of the time. Clearly you understand that me and you can twist the Bible to our liking the way statisticians can dress up numbers. The New Testament is both a continuation and a break from Judaic traditions and the prophets. And Revelation you know is a mixture of genre and not a literal writing. If your basing your violent God on Revelation you maybe missing the influence of Judaic tradition on John and the style of apocalypse writings. The Luke quote falls into the style of Jesus parabolic teachings, using references the people expected as they expected a new king, not a suffering messiah. Read on to Luke 41 to 44 the reference of these things have to do with piece. We both know the errors of rigid fundamentalism and cherry picking quotes. I don’t blame you for calling me a liar or anyone who engages with you. You said we need to believe, I am coming to understand you have a need to affirm your disbelief and attack others that is perhaps equal to my good will for you.

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      5. Yep, there are some parts of the bible that mention peace. alas for you, RG, there are all of those vicious verses too and your supposed messiah is the one responsible for murdering every non-christian per Revelation.

        Now, you try to claim that some mysterious person could “really” explain the bible to get away from the murderous god you have. alas, there is no one like this since your bible is quite clear in what it says.

        Christians can indeed twist the bible to mean what they want, we have evidence of this in the hundreds of sects that humans have invented, each insisting that theirs is the only “right” one.

        I love how you wnat to have your cake and eat it too “The New Testament is both a continuation and a break from Judaic traditions and the prophets.”

        This is quite a lovely contradictory claim. You also try to claim that your version is the only right one here: “And Revelation you know is a mixture of genre and not a literal writing. ”

        There is no evidence of this and as always each Christian makes up their bible with their own magic decoder ring on what should be considered literal, metaphor or just ignored since it would be inconvenient.

        You want to claim revelation is not literal, alas other christians claim it is and none of you can show that your version is the right one. You also can’t show that you are even Christians, since you cannot do what your supposed god/messiah promises in Mark 16, John 14 and James 5.

        You claim that the command that the king aka JC gives in the parable of the minas is “parabolic” aka is a parable. Yep, it is and do explain what the king really means when he says “26 ‘I tell you, to all those who have, more will be given; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and slaughter them in my presence.’””

        In other parables, we have this character repeating many of the points here, that this god will punish those it doesn’t like. Luke 19 is the only place where this king commands its followers to do the killing. Now, since you are quite sure you know what this really means, do explain. I will predict you won’t since you have no idea, other than what it literally says.

        All you have, RG, is the usual “sophisticated theology” excuse, that your nonsense *must* mean something else since you want it to, and you use vague handwaving to insist everyone else is wrong. So, explain all of your claims or be considered just one more fraud.

        Yep, I do know the errors of rigid fundamentalism and cherry picking. I point them out every day when Christians do it.

        Yep, you do need to pretend some magical being agrees with you. You’ve shown that so well here. You came here to lie and I called you on it. Now, my poor dear, you have to lie and play the martyr. YOu have no good will for anyone. You desperately desire my approval.

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      6. Hysterical. I already gave you context and explanation for the stated text. When you throw out vague interpretations of your take on the Bible without contextualism and serious literary and theological reference, it is you who profits (egotistically) from claiming a higher intellectual ground while demonstrating the opposite. I neither seek your approval nor wish you ill will despite your repeated animosity and expressed hostility towards me. That being said here is a pretty good list of resources for you to delve deeper into Catholic theology: https://researchguides.ben.edu/c.php?g=261716&p=1747757. I myself prefer writings of early Christian writers, Vatican historical documents, and lived experiences. As far as have my cake and eat it too – I am confident you have been exposed to non-dualistic thinking and situations where two opposing thoughts can hold validity at the same time. I will not go down your rabbit hole of endless platonic questioning only to receive no substance in return. No one can in my mind can prove or disprove God. That being said, what guides your moral and ethical life choices? Are they driven primarily by Darwinism? What guides your principles? Your actions? Your intentions? How do they inform your life, this blog, and relationships with others? Why am I still here after your shallow abuse towards me? You ask interesting questions (well more accusations) that any Christian should wrestle with – the greatest danger to religion is in uninformed and unaware base. More importantly, you provide a window of opportunity for others who may be looking for something more than what life gives them through science, philosophy, and other soft sciences. Our pointed dialogue gives them two opposing views and styles to weigh and perhaps resources along the way: Jordan Peterson, God, and Christianity: The Search for a Meaningful Life is the first systematic analysis, from a Christian perspective, of both Peterson’s biblical series on YouTube and his bestselling book 12 Rules for Life, with an epilogue examining its sequel, Beyond Order.

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      7. and poor RG is back here needing attention and approval from atheists because his fellow Christians aren’t impressed with him and his lies.

        I do enjoy when a Christian chooses to lie, RG. it does show that you have no more interest in your god/religion than I do. It’s also always grand fun to see the christian insisting that one has to agree with his lies to be considered “serious” in theology and literary reference.

        A shame for him it doesn’t work like that.

        And yet more “sophisticated theology” from a Catholic who wants to pretend his version is the true one but has no evidence his god even exists. RG prefers authors who agree with him, alas those authors can’t show they are any more correct than RG can. They have their baseless claims just like he does.

        this is sweet “s far as have my cake and eat it too – I am confident you have been exposed to non-dualistic thinking and situations where two opposing thoughts can hold validity at the same time. ”

        hmmm, nope this doesn’t happen. It’s another lie from a Christian who needs to pretend this can work since his religion is nonsense.

        “No one can in my mind can prove or disprove God.” Who caresw what ignorance is in RG’s mind? It is more than easy to show that RG’s god doesn’t exist: no evidence of the supposed events it caused and evidence entirely different things happened, no matter what date is invented for poor RG’s nonsense.

        Oh and now RG tries so hard with the argument from morality, which also fails. Alas, poor RG’s god never gave humans morality per his myths. That was done by Eve. This god wanted everyone ignorant of morality. Happily, humans have morality because of needing work together. It changes over time, and generally what sticks is what helps civilization work. So we have slowly but surely gotten better. I’m not stuck with the ignorance of some fellows from a couple of thousand years ago. RG also has no idea what “darwinism” is, so his attempts to damn by association shows he must lie to try to make people believe he and only he has some truth.

        “Why am I still here after your shallow abuse towards me?” nice lies again, RG.
        You are still here, and there is no abuse toward you, because you desperately want my approval and attention. No one cares about your opinions. I just show them to be wrong so your lies don’t afflict anyone.

        Jordan Peterson? why isn’t it a surprise that someone so petty finds him interesting. I do love a Christian misogynist and wannabee fascist who makes money from his gullible fellows by claiming to be an atheist/agnostic. Oh, seems I’ve just defined a conservative Catholic. Darn.

        oh and one can see what an idiot Peterson is in his own words: https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/blog-posts/sunday-times-unedited-interview-transcript/

        and more about the fraud Peterson: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson

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      8. Still hysterical responses from you, but I do find them mildly entertaining and a form of self-indictment by projection onto others…almost parabolic. May the force be with you…

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      9. aka one more Christian inventing a new version to supplant the vicious ignorant god that they are stuck with. So much for truths that can be discarded as the humans feel necessary.

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      10. And the evidence provided…as club just cuts and paste away with superficial attacks and insults. Gave it my best Club…it is evident there is no honest give and take here. Regards and wishes for a fulfilling life here as we move forward on our different paths.

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      11. and RG now tries to ignore how their bible shows that their claims about how accepting their religion is false. they do this by trying to claim that it is “just” cutting and pasting.

        Thanks, RG, for showing just how some Christians find it easier to lie rather than discuss how their personal versions of Chrisitanity do not reflect what they claim to believe in. I am glad to have your nonsense recorded here.

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    1. “Dude”, nobody hurt me.

      Sigh, one more Christian who has to pretend that the only reason someone doesn’t agree with them is that they were “hurt”. Such pathetic fantasies to support your need to feel special.

      So, Hetty, which version of Christianity do you follow or have you invented one of your own?

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      1. No surprise that Hetty is just one more Christian needing to lie. I guess she’s just one more who hasn’t read her bible and saw that her god hates liars, even if they claim that they are lying for this god, Romans 3.

        No surprise either that Hetty won’t mention what type of Christian she is. I’d be embarrassed if I believed in one of the many many sects of that nonsense too.

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      2. hetty eliot, a rather amusing amalgamation of a thoughtless character with the authors name.

        “Hetty Sorrel is a major character in George Eliot’s novel Adam Bede (1859).

        Beautiful but thoughtless Hetty lives in the fictional community of Hayslope — a rural, pastoral and close-knit community in 1799. Her home is on Mr. Martin Poyser’s dairy farm as she is his niece. Because she is an extremely pretty girl, she is admired by Mr. Craig and Adam Bede as well as Captain Arthur Donnithorne. Aside from her great physical beauty, George Eliot takes care to make it clear that she does not have many attractive personal qualities. She is spoiled, cold, insensitive, indifferent to other people’s problems, and almost comically vain and selfish.” wikipedia entry on Hetty Sorrel

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      3. nothing surprising. Typical from a whiny brat.

        I like to be well informed of failures like you, Hetty. Such a poor Christian. Needing to be the martyr since she has nothing else at all.

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      4. oh and thanks for mentioning my comments and not being able to show one instance of something supporting your claims. Such a pity. Your cut and paste abilities gone?

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      5. Lmao this is what I mean by you debating yourself. You now believe I’m copying and pasting and making claims. I never made any claim. You are hilarious

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      6. and Hetty also shows she has limited reading comprehension. That can be fixed. The rest? Doubtful.

        let’s try again dear. Here’s what I wrote: “oh and thanks for mentioning my comments and not being able to show one instance of something supporting your claims. Such a pity. Your cut and paste abilities gone?”

        This is in response to your comment “😂 read your comment section” This is a claim: “an assertion open to challenge” (merriam-webster)The typical vague claim of a failed theist that there is something that supports them when there is not. My reply mentions nothing about you copying and pasting yet. It is noting that you can’t produce anything to support your claims. If I have done what you claim, you could support your claims with cutting and pasting the appropriate pieces from my comments into yours.

        and here are explanation of some of your other comments:

        “Dude who hurt you” – a baseless assertion

        “Lol look how angry you are. It’s not good for your health.” – another baseless assertion

        “Lol you’re debating yourself for me. You pick the denomination and run with it.” – and another baseless assertion where one has to wonder if Hetty has a clue on what the term debate means.

        “Nah, it’s more fun to watch you triggering yourself over nothing” – another baseless assertion and one has to wonder if Hetty knows what triggering means since she cannot explain her claim.

        all in all Hetty is a typical christian, that when she failed in her initial claim about me being “hurt” she finds she must double down in her need to convince herself that she was right all along. Alas, that does nothing but serve as more fail to amuse me.

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      7. Good grief, what a piece of work “Hetty” is!

        (hands Vel the fabled Clue-By-Four™) Feel free to use egregiously with lots of sound effects. 😀

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      8. Hetty certainly is incompetent. She’s of that subclass of Christian who, after failing with one false claim, she just can’t quit me. 🙂 I gladly take the fabled Clue-By-Four(tm) from my goddess 🙂

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