There’s a new thing making the Christian circuit, a book and website called “The Doubter’s Club” which is intended to convert non-christian, especially atheists it seems. I’ve listened to an interview with the author and leader, Preston Ulmer, here, and below is my response.
as an atheist, I have some suggestions for Christians who find they need to bother us about their religion.
Christians are indeed certain about a lot of things. They try to claim they are not, but they cannot function as Christians if they do doubt. Even the bible states this, with JC talking to Thomas. This god did give evidence in that case, so the claims from Christians that no one should ask for evidence, e.g. “test” this god is based on apologetics that know that no evidence would be forthcoming.
When a Christian does claim he doesn’t understand something, it is usually when something is an embarrassing point in the bible, like when this god is seen to do something ignorant and violent, where god’s “mysterious” ways are invoked. That is an obvious dodge to an atheist.
It seems that Preston assumes that atheists are dishonest. That is unfortunate. Theists often want to claim that they know why people are atheists, when they ignore what atheists actually say. Don’t do this. You’ll almost always be wrong.
To consider us as prey in a “long play” is also obvious. We aren’t stupid. You want more people in your “tribe” for validation. It’s not right or wrong, it’s just human.
Most of us do know that Christians disagree in the most basic things, so insisting your version is the one truth doesn’t work. We also know that you try to convert each other. A lot of us also know that a Christian, C.S. Lewis, said to hide the divisions from potential Christians (Mere Christianity, preface).
Many of us are former Christians and have read the bible. We are often more familiar with than most Christians. If you try to claim we don’t “correctly” understand it, often sheathed in the claim that we don’t know about sophisticated theologians or Christianity, we will ask you how you can show your version is the “right” one.
Most of us also know that Jesus isn’t all warm and fuzzy. This character kills every non Christian in the end times stories. Luke 19, the parable of the minas, isn’t a great thing either.
If you assume that we are on a “spiritual” journey, you are likely wrong. That is an assumption that we aren’t complete as we are.
Acting like you are doing us a favor is also obvious. We aren’t the “unclean” that you can feel virtuous by daring to associate with. We know you have ulterior motives. We have friends and we do deserve friends, no god or Christian needed.
The “invitation to imitate Christ” bit is probably the most ridiculous and verging on offensive. This assumes that your version of Christ is the true one, that Christ existed, and that we aren’t humane, empathetic people. We know that Christianity, at its base, says that anyone who disagrees with this god deserves death or worse. That isn’t love and that isn’t something a friend would wish for their friend. This ignorance assumes that only Christians are good people. They aren’t.
For me, the whole thing comes off as creepy. Really really creepy.
Club Schadenfreude 
Well, the stats aren’t in their favour 😉
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You speak as though you are knowledgeable and happy, but your words show otherwise. You like to make blanket statements of understanding and as if you know what any follower of Christ thinks or believes about you while at the same time criticizing Christians for doing what you are doing. It seems ironic to me. You seem to want to engage, but you don’t and simply like to make ad hominem attacks. I am sure that you believe that you have the SciEnCe behind your thinking because you are in agreement with much of the current dialogue that is in the anti-Christian world. Your advice to Christians is interesting as if you believe you speak for atheists and the reality is that you don’t really care. I agree that the point of trying to convert you is pointless and there are many theological reasons that this statement could be made. I don’t wish you any ill, which I don’t know that the same would be true for you for me. I, also, don’t see much point in holding a discussion with you about the faith or seek to understand your views.
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No, Rev, I write and it shows that I am knowledgeable and happy, and since I’m using words, they do exactly the same. You simply make a false claim that they don’t. Do show evidence for this claim of yours: “You speak as though you are knowledgeable and happy, but your words show otherwise.” Surely you can, right? A little cutty-pasty?
I know what followers of Christ think, and that is often entirely contradictory to other Christians. I make blanket statements of understand because I can and they are accurate.
You of course cannot show where I’ve used an ad hominem argument and I suspect you don’t understand what one is. Here is a good link to various logical fallacies: http://www.nizkor.com/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html Like many Christians, you seem to think that anything unflattering said about you is an ad hominem argument. It doesn’t work that way.
It’s so sweet to see you weirdly type science. I guess that is all you have. Alas, you rely on that science every single day, and you show yourself a hypocrite when you embrace what makes you comfy but you lie about that which shows your claims to be wrong.
IF there is an “anti-christian” world, Christians are definitely part of it since you all love to claim each other aren’t really Christians. You insist that anyone who disagrees with your particular version are apostates, heretics, Satanists, etc. And that underlines how you have no truth at all.
I don’t speak for all atheists and I never said so; I speak for me. But again, nice false claim there, Rev. It’s expected. I do care since the same incompetent arguments and apologetics of Christians is terribly boring. Why should I want you to waste your time on things that don’t work and bother me and my friends?
Christians like you often insist that it isn’t your problem if you can’t convert me, which is just the poor fox claiming that the grapes are sour.
As a Christian, your religion is based on wishing ill on those who disagree with you, with death or worse. I would simply wish that you would stop causing the harm you do in the world in your ignorance and arrogance. Until that happens, I’ll always stand up and show your false claims to be what they are.
You of course don’t see any point to discuss things with me since you have nothing, Rev. No evidence for your version of your religion. You’ve yet to be able to show I’m wrong in any instance. And you are terrified to talk to an atheist since understanding my view just might show how yours fail.
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Wow Rev, one might argue that your post is a very good example of an ad hominem Author posts an opinion with arguments supporting his opinion, and then you attack the authors credibility.
“I, also, don’t see much point in holding a discussion with you about the faith or seek to understand your views.“ That is a very astute summary of your position. Just posting this alone would have saved you a lot of typing.
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The god that atheists don’t believe to exist is also the god that believers don’t believe. The God that atheists dismiss without knowing is what Christians proclaim. We should not think that creating a false god to reject is reasonable and honest. God has given life, breath, and everything, and everyone lives, moves, and has being by Him, so God is not far from anyone that we cannot seek and find Him. God no longer overlooks such agnosticism but commands all people everywhere to repent because He has set a day that He will judge the world in righteousness by a Man giving assurance of this by resurrecting Him from the dead.
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Scott, I’ve heard that argument many times from Christians. Unfortunately for you, many atheists, including myself, have been Christians of all types and we know what the Christian god is claimed to be, in all of its versions.
Christians, like you, claim what you do, and have no evidence for their claims. There is no evidence any of your versions exist nor that any of them are the creator of reality. I do like how your version contradicts the other versions, destroying the common Christian claims of free will since yours, as you claim “everyone lives, moves, and has being by Him,” Your claims are made also by most other religions. they can’t show themselves true either.
You want to pretend you have the one right version of Christianity, and that your god is what you want it to be, all without evidence. All you appear to be is one more human who wants to be the TrueChristian(tm), and you have impotent threats to try to convince others to give you that approbation. Alas, poor christians can’t even agree on the most basic things in their religion: what sin consists of, what morals this god wants, what heaven and hell are, what born again/born from above really means, free will vs predestination, etc.
I am not impressed with a self-proclaimed Christian who can’t even do what his supposed messiah promised all baptized believers in him as personal savior can do. That lack of ability shows that either you or your bible is making false claims.
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Are you saying that you don’t believe in God and Christ because the believers don’t completely agree with one another with what you think are “basic things”?
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No, I’m pointing out how a supposedly omnipotent God fails to get its “truth” across to puny humans. By that incompetence, no reason to think your God exists.
And dear, those ARE basic things. I love your attempt to claim they aren’t
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We should not think that God failed to communicate but that humanity refuses to listen. We should not think that God would communicate so that no one has the ability to choose and so negate the ability to love. We should not think that the Creator of everything as the source of all goodness would force people to robotically obey. If you wanted, you could think and comprehend. God will not overlook such agnosticism.
Those who seek God find evidence of God everywhere.
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ROFL. Oh my, Scott, quite the excuses you try to give for your incompetent and imaginary god. Of course you don’t want to think of your god being the failure it is, and try to blame the victims as usual.
Every theist tries to claim that other theists refuse to “listen” to their supposed “truth”. Alas, poor Scott, you are as much of a failure as your god, unable to do what this god supposedly promised to all of its baptized believers.
We all have the ability to love, no god or Scott needed. And no reason to think your petty god is the source of “all goodness”. Even per your own bible, this god is the source of good *and* evil, and repeatedly works with its supposed archenemy, even to the point of corrupting Christians so this god gets its bang up bloody battle finale. Revelation is just so much fun to read to see just how idiotic Christianity is.
I already think and comprehend the weak and pitiful humans who have to follow the nonsense of Christianity, and their desperate impotent threats.
Yep, those who are deluded see delusions, Scott. So, every Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, animist, Wicca, all see evidence for their nonsense everywhere. No evidence that nonsense is true.
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Your mockery is self-defeating. How can you set yourself aside from others who are seeking the truth without being a hypocrite? Are you saying that you have not sought what is true? Have you not found evidence for what you believe? What standard have you found to judge what is true? You could present how you reached your conclusions.
We should not think that assuming one’s personal standard for what is true proves one’s conclusions are true. We should not assume that an individual’s reasoning proves that person’s reasoning is correct. You know that is circular. You could thank yourself for telling yourself that you’re not delusional, but what would that prove?
There is no axiom to distinguish reality from delusion except one. Everything else is absurdity.
Now, you have come to where you started by inventing a false god to dismiss that Christians also don’t believe. You have reinterpreted the Bible to reject it. Is that not dishonest?
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Nope, my mockery of liars and failures like you isn’t self-defeating at all. You, and other sad little conservative Christians, aren’t seeking truth at all. You are inventing your god in your image, an ignorant bigoted thing that is as petty as you are.
I’ve sought the truth often. No theist has it. They all either lie or repeat lies in ignorance. I’ve found plenty of evidence for what I trust. I can judge what is true thanks to nifty things like the scientific method. I reach my conclusions by experimentation and observation. I don’t need a bunch of writings from ignorant people from a couple of thousand years ago, writings that Christians can’t agree on what they mean.
Every Christian claims that their personal standard should be accepted as true, that you and you alone have the TrueChristianity(tm). Funny how not a one of you can do what your silly compliation of books promises for baptized believers of Christ as personal savior. You are a fraud, Scott.
I agree, one shouldnt’ assume one’s personal ideas are correct. They should be looked at against reality. Alas, not one theist’s reasoning holds up against that.
all you have is the usual lies that since people supposedly can’t be sure of things being real, they can’t trust their own ideas and must trust in your lies presented as some god. Sorry dear, not going to happen. There is no evidence for your god or any god so there is no reason to think your god is real, much less some way to distinguish reality from delusion. Indeed, since Chrsitians can’t agree about your nonsense, it seems that you all are simply deluded.
Do tell how the bible is supposed to be “interpreted”, dear. Since Christians can’t agree, and as I note above, none of you can do what JC promised to his real followers, there seems to be a problem for you in showing what bible “really” means. I do also love how you try to claim I’m lying and cannot show one instance of that. You are just one more Christian who ignores his god when it supposedly says never lie. You shit on its supposed words with your actions, Scott.
You can’t show your version of the christian god is the “right” one, much less show that it exists at all. You can’t even show you are a Christian. So much for your claims that I have somehow invented a god that Christians don’t believe in. You’ve invented one that at least one person does and it is impotent and evidently imaginary.
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Hey schedenfreude, check out this book. I believe you will find it useful and in favour of your arguments. https://www.amazon.com/Word-Becoming-Flesh-Harry-Thodi-ebook/dp/B09KT2PT4Y
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Harry, you have nothing new, just the same failed lies and apologetics I’ve seen before. It does take a bit of ignorance and arrogance to claim your nonsense is a “treasured work”.
Present me with the entire book and I’ll be happy to review it. You are just one more Christian who has invented his god in his image. And not a one of you can show your version to be true or show that you are a baptized believer in Christ since not one of you can do the miracles JC supposedly promised you could do.
Like in James. James 5 to be precise:
“13 Are any among you suffering? They should pray. Are any cheerful? They should sing songs of praise. 14 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective. 17 Elijah was a human being like us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain and the earth yielded its harvest.”
Apparently you are all frauds.
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I hear you. Send me your email address I should send you the book for a review.
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you can email me at velkyn@comcast.net
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And maybe YOU, Harry, should try this book. 😁
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or this one. https://www.amazon.com/Owner-All-Infernal-Names-Omnimalevolent/dp/1512263524/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=john+zande&qid=1637340435&sr=8-1
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