Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – a new pair of apologists

I found a new blog with a pair of Christian gals who want to address us atheists, agnostics and non-christians. Unfortunately, they don’t seem to be very aware of counter apologetics and may regret what they’ve started. They seem nice enough, but terribly ignorant. We’ll see how this goes.

Here’s a response to one of their posts. :

Sarah and Hannah, the burden of proof does lie with theists.  You all make the claim of some supernatural entity or entities existing.  You have no evidence that your particular god or gods exists.  You all use much the same arguments to try to convince others your particular god/gods exist.  Those arguments fail since they are too vague to be able to find your god.   You also insist that each other’s god or gods don’t exist, disbelieving in your own arguments if they are applied to another god. 

Yes, atheists do make good points for there being no god or gods.  You, as a fellow atheist, also do since I suspect that you would say you don’t believe in other gods since there is no evidence for them.  The argument from evil is potent but even more potent is that there is no actual evidence for these gods and the events they supposedly caused. 

That you don’t like the conclusion that there is no god or gods is immaterial to the fact that there is no evidence for them.  Humans do indeed like to try to pretend that something will take care of them, that they won’t have to die and end forever.  That doesn’t mean that any gods exist or they won’t cease to exist.  You offer the same “reason” to believe that other theists do again. 

The conclusion that there is no god is not there to give you peace or purpose.  That’s up to you to create for yourself.  The only part that you lose is the baseless belief that you are somehow special and important to some magical being.  There are plenty of worldviews that say slow down and listen and give peace.  I suggest Epicureanism or Stoicism.  Read the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius for some rather startlingly good wisdom from a Stoic.   You can find it all over the internet since it is out of copyright 😊    Here are a few quotes from him:

“”Say to yourself in the early morning: I shall meet today ungrateful, violent, treacherous, envious, uncharitable men. All of these things have come upon them through ignorance of real good and ill… I can neither be harmed by any of them, for no man will involve me in wrong, nor can I be angry with my kinsman or hate him; for we have come into the world to work together.” ~ Marcus Aurelius”

“”Don’t be ashamed to need help. Like a soldier storming a wall, you have a mission to accomplish. And if you’ve been wounded and you need a comrade to pull you up? So what?” ~ Marcus Aurelius”

Having been a Christian I agree with you, Christian apologists are embarrassing, for their incoherence and their outright lies.  The first cause argument gets Christians nowhere, since there is no evidence a god of any kind is needed, and Christians can’t agree on the most basic things in their religion: what morals this god wants, what heaven and hell are, how to be saved, etc. 

I’ve read the bible in its entirety as a believer and as not.  The god in the bible is nothing more than a petty human writ large, just like every other god invented by bronze/iron age humans.  It is ignorant, violent, genocidal, kills children and has no problem with slavery.  I can get what little good is in the bible from other sources and don’t have to invent excuses why I should worship such a god. 

Do you want a god that kills a child for no fault of its own as part of your child’s life?  Your god, per the bible, kills David’s son for David’s actions. So much for free will or love.  Do you want a god that says slaves should never seek their freedom (1 Peter 2) in your child’s life?  How about a god that demands that young girls are kept for war booty and given as sex slaves to its temple and to its followers (Numbers 31)? 

There is much more to this world than suffering and its up to us humans to fix it.  We do not need failed prayers and victim blaming when this god does nothing.  You won’t see anyone again, but they will be still in your memories.  Your god, per the bible, doesn’t love each person as an individual.  It kills them and tortures them for eternity if they don’t agree with it.  That isn’t love.  There is no free will, aka “agency” in your bible since anytime it interferes with human action, free will disappears.  As soon as it mind controls someone to get its way, Exodus 4, Exodus 9 and Joshua 11, free will disappears.  Per both Jesus and Paul, this god has already chosen who it will allow to accept it, and then damns the rest for no fault of their own, to be used to keep the others in line (Matthew 13, Romans 9). 

Any set of myths present different characters, so there is nothing special about the bible in that way either.  Those stories also present the god I describe above, violent, ignorant, petty, and not even coming up to the half-decent description of love in 1 Corinthians.  No one needs such a petty tyrant as a god. 

I have no problem in knowing I’ll eventually die.  I don’t need a false story to make me feel better.  I prefer the truth.  The lack of a god is quite comprehensible and palatable, considering the nasty god of Christianity.  I don’t have to fear any sadistic fantasy of hell. That’s quite comforting.

There are many “god believers” who are hateful, who have committed suicide (despite the promise in the bible that this god will never leave someone alone), who don’t get up, who have no purpose in life.  And there are plenty of atheists, and non-Christians who are well-adjusted, get up everyday, have purpose in life and life for something greater than themselves.   

So, since other theists do exactly what you do, does this mean their gods are as real as yours?  Your own words say so, claiming that there is “empirical evidence” in the actions of believers.  Alas, there is nothing that shows that Christians’ lives are better, that they are better adjusted and that they alone give hope to those around them.  

That you try to claim that atheists, agnostics and non-christian theists can’t is rather pitiable that you need to make false claims to make yourself feel superior



18 thoughts on “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – a new pair of apologists

  1. I ran into them too, and left a couple of rebuttals. With names of Hannah and Sarah, I suspected Jewish. 😕
    Hannah left a rambling response, about as firm as marshmallow fluff. I debated engaging in further discussion, but I see that you’ve covered pretty much every point I had. Well done. 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Oh Archon, Hannah Here. We are actually Church of Christ. As I am simply the podcast partner and not the author of the blog, I can’t say empircally what Sarah was thinking when writing this. Nothing we say will ever be 100% fact. I am an atheist. Mostly. I simply will entertain the idea of the possibility of a god cause it doesn’t hurt me. Christians hurt people. I wouldn’t consider Sarah a Christian, either. I would consider her a theist. Anyway. I do hope you day continues as it has already. We are defeinitely not a podcast OR blog for die hard Christians, nor die hard atheists. Because we entertain both ideas. Anyway, thanks so much fior the comment on both our blog post and this one. All comments are welcom.

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      1. trying to use one email for two people is rather silly.

        The actions that people take because they think some magical being supports them hurt many people, especially when that god is the one in the bible that has so much genocide, murder, and hate in it.

        Since you are Church of Christ, you are christians. Unsurprisingly, the term Christian has quite a lot of baggage, thanks to the actions of Christians and the utter inaction of this god. If someone believes in a god, they are a theist.

        Your arguments for your god are mostly, if not only, classic Christian apologetics. I would, again, recommend you actually do some research, rather than making claims and then having to clean up afterwards, wasting everyone’s time.

        Liked by 1 person

  2. Oh, geez. I went, I saw, I commented. Probably relegated to the spam folder lol. But I copied it 😉

    The cosmology argument? Really? Do you know nothing of physics or cosmology? Because that’s the only way that argument makes any sense, if you are completely ignorant on the subject. I suggest you read up on the subject before you hang your hat on it. I’m no expert in the field by any means, but I am familiar with the basics.

    Particles pop in and out of existence all the time. There is no such thing as nothing. To claim absurdly that “whatever exists has a cause” is fallacious. This is claiming to know something you do not. How would anyone know exactly what this cause is? Oh, we just assume it’s god, without any further investigation? Because that makes us feel better? And, “therefore the universe has a cause” Says who? How and why is this statement true? How do you know that? Where do you get your information, and is it reliable?

    People believe what they want to believe. Cognitive dissonance, pretzel logic, circular reasoning, fallacies, and outright lies from those who would keep you ignorant, keep believers in their happy place.

    From what I read on this page, you are closer to understanding than you think. Just don’t stop asking questions. Get the actual answers you are looking for. Don’t settle for ignorant platitudes like the cosmology argument. It is no argument. It is a statement of massive ignorance and blatantly bigoted perspective, all based on the desire to believe. Rather than the desire to know. One of these is based in reality. The other is not. Up to you to figure it out.

    Good luck.

    Oh, also your experiences are not empirical evidence. It is a personal experience, up until you mentioned it, then it became heresay. Probably the worst evidence for anything ever. Next time you want empirical evidence, set up the study, the control group, and concentrate on eliminating your bias.

    What you said of those people you had experience with, how do you know how that translates to non believers? You don’t. Because if you did, you would know there are more options than what you think you know.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. my comment is still in moderation so I suspect yours is too. It seems that these would-be apologists find that their god doesn’t have their back when it comes to spreading their nonsense. So, they must marinate in their willful ignorance.

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      1. Yeah, I’ve been down this road a few times. Cowards hide behind moderation. Belief is so embedded in the psyche they do what they think they must to protect it.

        Caveat about moderation… unless you are just dealing with a troll, in which case moderation is better for society in general.

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    2. Hello Shelldigger, Hannah Here. Sorry as it was spring break and both Sarah and I were spending some much needed time with family, we were unable to get to all of the very insightful comments as soon as I know everyone would have liked. As The post you particularly commented on was written entirely by Sarah, I cannot say anything about it, but you will find she has replied to your comment! Hope your day continues nicely.

      PS: I don’t know what the cosmology argument is, so I can’t say one way or another.

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  3. Hi everyone, Hannah Here from the post on Is God Real Part 1. I truly hope you all get a chance to check out part 2. It seems most of those following are atheists. As I am a budding atheist myself, MY post will be on part two. Again, we have differing views and I think it makes for a better conversation on the podcast. My posts aren’t as eloquent as hers. I usually just type whatever my notes are. I work full time and go to school full time. Usually, any questions regarding “Could this mean God is real?” is just a note for me to refute later in the podcast if that makes sense. Anyway. Part 2 will be much more pleasing. Since we have an experience I think many young Millennials can relate to: Raised in the Christian faith and hate the way Christian beliefs are, we made this podcast to help ourselves sort out our beliefs. I don’t think you would like it too much, but who knows? Have a good day! stay safe if you’re in the south like us. The weather is dangerous today.

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    1. I take it back. Part 1 was me, part 2 is Sarah. Well, I guess I am just never going to have the right response for yall. I believe every word I put in part 1. IF there is a god, he either is a piece of shit or the people who wrote the bible misrepresented him. I don’t believe in God. This whole post is the notes explaining my journey on becoming an atheist. Again, SO MUCH MORE DETAIL in the actual podcast. I am trying to see what the problem is with my particular post in part 1 since I am not saying god exists and yall are atheists? We claim that we are LAYwomen. Not experts. My definitions of atheism, theism and agnosticism are from a book on atheism written in the 70s. I guess our blog and podcast are not something yall should listen to or read. I was hoping otherwise. Oh well. It is what it is.

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      1. you can find counter apologetics all over the internet.

        https://infidels.org/library/

        https://www.debunking-christianity.com/

        https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page

        https://onlysky.media/

        https://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/

        I’ve listened to your podcasts, there isn’t that much more detail there. My advice is to write what you have to say since your podcasts are often hard to follow, especially when you both seem to be agreeing about the same claims of Christianity, which doesn’t make much sense if one of you is an atheist, the other a follower of Christ and both are going to a church. You need to clarify your backstories more to allow people to grasp what you are trying to do.

        You also run into a common thing which apologists do. Many of us were Chrsitians and have been atheists for quite some time. We know our stuff very well. If you want to make claims, but then try to hedge with claiming that we shouldn’t hold you accountable by saying “we aren’t experts” that seems that you want an easy out. That may not be your intent but that is how you appear.

        Finally, you do seem to be doing what a lot of Christians do, trying to make a kinder gentler Jesus/God, by blaming humans for not getting the story “right”. There is no reason to think it is anything but a story, and there is no god that you need to retcon.

        Liked by 1 person

  4. Hey thanks for the shoutout! I really do appreciate the comments. I approved them all 🙂 I think having a space for free speech is imperative for growth and conversation. You have caught us at the beginning of our journey into this space of thinking critically, frameworks, ideologies, truth, atheism and the like. All comments are helpful to point out inconsistencies in our thought patterns so that as we move forward in our journey we can speak more intelligibly about things we want to understand but don’t quite understand. Everyone has to start somewhere!! Thanks for the cognitive dissonance, you’re welcome anytime on the page!

    Like

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