Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – nothing new, a Christian apologist fails

Many of my blog visitors will recognize the failed apologist SpaniardVIII.  He, in the typical apologist arrogance, offered to answer any questions about his version of Christianity.    I asked him some questions about bible verses to see what excuses he would offer, and I wasn’t disappointed, getting a great set of examples of how Christians respond when their bible is inconvenient in its contradictions and in its less than admirable god.

The first  question I asked was about the contradictory claims in Exodus 20 and Ezekiel 18 where this god is described as punishing descendants for the actions of their ancestors and where it says this god will never do that.    

Unfortunately for span, it doesn’t just “seem” like this god will punish descendants, it says that quite literally.  We also have that confirmed in the Christian claims of “original sin”.    These are the verses:

“⁴ You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. ⁵ You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, ⁶ but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation^[b] of those who love me and keep my commandments.”  Exodus 20 NRSV

Span uses the Berean Study Bible for his translation.  That is claimed to be “. An interlinear Bible to directly follow the Greek and Hebrew texts.2. A literal translation to take the reader to the core of the Greek and Hebrew meanings.3. A modern English translation, effective for public reading, memorization, and evangelism.4. An annotated translation to bring out the full meaning and intensity of the original texts.”  Funny how all bibles claim to be exactly this, with the exception of the good ol’ KJV since it is still in Elizabethan English. Christians still can’t agree on what version is the “right one”, and it seems that not a one of them can get their imaginary god’s stamp of approval. 

This is what the BSB has “ 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above, on the earth below, or in the waters beneath. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing loving devotion to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments. “

If we look at the underlined words, the father’s descendants are cursed since they are continuing to practice their father’s wickedness which in this case is idolatry. If a son imitates his father’s sins, he will be found guilty in God’s eyes. However, in Ezekiel 18, God makes it clear that if the son sees all of his father’s wickedness but decides not to do them but rather, obey the LORD, he will not pay for his father’s sins. God judges everyone’s personal decisions either to believe in God and follow His Word or to disobey Him and live in sin.

The LORD’s desire is for people to repent from their sins and change their ways and obey His Word.

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn’t I prefer that he turn from his ways and live? -Exodus 18:23 BSB”

His bible doesn’t say that the children of the parents who disobey are also disobeying at all.  This demonstrates either Span’s ignorance about how grammar works or that he is attempting to lie.  What the sentence says is that the children will be punished because of the actions of the parent, not their own actions.  If one writes this out without the clauses, it comes out like this “You shall not bow down to them or worship them.  I am a jealous God and I visit the iniquity of the fathers who hate me on the third and fourth generations of their children.   I show loving devotion to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments.” 

there are actions by this god in these sentences.  This god “visits” (in this context meaning “to afflict with; to avenge (to exact satisfaction for (a wrong) by punishing the wrongdoer – merriam webster which uses this verse as an example)” the iniquities of the parents on the children for the actions of the parents.  There is no hate shown by these children toward this god.  This god also acts on those that love him, all of them.  

Unsurprisingly, span is also wrong about Ezekiel 18.  It mentions nothing about a son seeing the actions of his father.  “ ¹The word of the Lord came to me: ² What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? ³ As I live, says the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. ⁴ Know that all lives are mine; the life of the parent as well as the life of the child is mine: it is only the person who sins that shall die.” Ezekiel 18 NRSV

This goes on to mention a son who does bad things, and says that a father wouldn’t be held accountable, and that if a father does bad things, a son would not be held accountable. And again, it repeats “²⁰ The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own.” 

span tries to mention Ezekiel 18, where this god claims to be interested in people coming to it.  “²³ Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord God, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live? ²⁴ But when the righteous turn away from their righteousness and commit iniquity and do the same abominable things that the wicked do, shall they live? None of the righteous deeds that they have done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which they are guilty and the sin they have committed, they shall die.”

Now, consider this “³ David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ Nathan said to David, ‘Now the Lord has put away your sin; you shall not die. ¹⁴ Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord,^[a] the child that is born to you shall die.’ ¹⁵ Then Nathan went to his house. The Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became very ill. ¹⁶ David therefore pleaded with God for the child; David fasted, and went in and lay all night on the ground. ¹⁷ The elders of his house stood beside him, urging him to rise from the ground; but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. ¹⁸ On the seventh day the child died.” 2 Samuel 12

hmmm. Span still has a contradiction in his bible and we also get to see this god lie when it comes to David’s son.

The second response is even better.  

“The second question:

“If this god hates Satan, why does it show off to satan like a [the phrase was removed for being disrespectful] and allow a family to be murdered?”

God gives all of His creatures free will. For example, God has allowed you (clubschadenfreude) to mock and malign God without being judged immediately for your contempt. You and the rest of the atheists are very fortunate.”

the phrase removed was that this god shows off to satan like a besotted schoolgirl.   Poor god, just so impotent and fearful, it can’t take being described accurately.  My question here is referring to events in the book of Job.  It’s no surprise that span didn’t quote that here, since it shows he’s wrong again.  There is no mention of free will, and a complete disregard for free will when this god says that satan can do whatever he wants with these humans “ The Lord said to Satan,^[g] ‘Very well, all that he has is in your power; only do not stretch out your hand against him!’” Poof goes their free will.  And alas, for span, this god doesn’t allow me to do anything at all.  This imaginary god can’t do anything, and all poor span has is an impotent threat that will never come true.  I’ll never be judged by his bogeyman at all.   

“The third question:

“If this god hates satan, why did it allow satan into the garden? or couldn’t it keep it out?”

God’s judgment on Satan and his fallen angels will take place at the end of the world when they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire with those who refuse to put their trust in Jesus Christ.

God allowed Satan to test Adam and Eve to see if they would choose to obey God or listen to Satan. It is no different for us today. We are given the choice to follow Jesus or to follow Satan through atheism, cults, and the occults.”

Span tries to claim that an omnipotent and omniscient being has to “test” people for some reason.  Being omniscient means you don’t have to test someone; you know already what will happen and what people will do.  This depowering of a god isn’t anything new for Christians to do.   They just don’t think their excuses through. 

“The fourth question:

“If this god hates satan, why did it need satan to have its blood sacrifice by torture work?”

I’m not sure what she is trying to say with this question. It doesn’t make any sense. I will try anyways.

I’m assuming she is referring to Jesus’ death on the cross. So what she is asking is, why did Jesus need Satan to put Him on the cross? Jesus didn’t need Satan to put Him on the cross. There is no such reference in Scripture even remotely to that effect. Judas Iscariot opened up the door to Satan by being a thief, see John 6:70-71, giving him access to his life. Satan hated Jesus and wanted to stop Him since Jesus was reclaiming the souls that Satan had captured to do his bidding. When he saw that Judas didn’t give his heart to Christ and was stealing from Him, Satan saw his opportunity and took it.

This is for the second part of her question. The reason Jesus had to die on the cross for the sins of the world was that sin brought about death for all mankind. The payment for our sins was for someone sinless, Jesus Christ, to die in our place and pay our debt in full. God had to deal with humanity’s sins first before He could forgive them. Once God punished sin, forgiveness can now be extended to all.”

Poor span, he can’t grasp what I’ve asked here.  If this god hates satan, why does it need satan’s action for its plan to come true?  In the gospel of Luke, there would be no blood sacrifice by torture of Jesus if there wasn’t a betrayal done by Satan.  No blood sacrifice, no salvation. So, yep, this god needs satan.  Judas didn’t open up anything at all.  That’s a common false claim by Christians who haven’t read their bibles, but believe the mangled version given to them by priests and pastors who don’t like when this god works with its archenemy.  This claim that somehow satan took over also shows that free will is again not in the bible.  If humans can be taken over, poof goes free will. As for why JC had to die, it was to make god happy, nothing more or less.  And there was no payment since there was no loss.   It’s also unsurprising that, again, span must depower his god.  By definition, a god doesn’t have to deal with anything, especially when it put the rules in place. 

Then we get to the most interesting response:

““If this god hates satan, why does it kill all non-christians and then free satan to corrupt the christians that are left?”

“This question is misleading as it is incorrect from the start, assuming that everyone will be a Christian at that time. The question is about the End Times, in the Book of Revelation when Jesus comes down to fight against the Antichrist and his army. The non-Christian she refers to is the Antichrist and his army who will come to fight against Jesus Christ and His saints. So, the non-Christians are Satan worshippers, who received the mark of the beast. After the Antichrist is defeated, Jesus throws him and the false prophet into the Lake of Fire, and Satan is chained up and thrown into the bottomless pit for the time that Jesus rules on earth. When Jesus wins the battle, He comes down and reigns for a thousand years with His saints, and true peace permeates through the world.

When the thousand years are over, Jesus lets Satan loose for a short time, and it becomes apparent in Revelation 20:7-9, that even though Jesus will be here on earth physically, people will still refuse to believe in Him. So not everybody will be a Christian. Those are the ones that Satan gathers up to go to war for the last time. Fire comes down from heaven and devours Satan’s army who came to destroy the people in Jerusalem. Satan is thrown into his eternal place which is the Lake of Fire. Everyone at that time that ever existed will be judged. Everyone in Hades will be brought back to face God’s judgment and will end up in the Lake of Fire which is the second death. The righteous will be judged for the things they did for Jesus while on earth. Those are the ones who will enter heaven.”

Here again, the bible shows that span is wrong and that’s why he doesn’t quote it any longer in this post.

“¹⁷ Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, ‘Come, gather for the great supper of God, ¹⁸ to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of the mighty, the flesh of horses and their riders—flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.’ ¹⁹ Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against the rider on the horse and against his army. ²⁰ And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed in its presence the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur. ²¹ And the rest were killed by the sword of the rider on the horse, the sword that came from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.”

Span chooses to try to ignore what the verse actually says, “the flesh of all” and “the rest were killed”.  So everyone is dead except Christians, per the bible itself.     

then we have “Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. ² He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, ³ and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while.”

So, we have the nations of Christians kept safe from satan so “true peace” will reign.  If there are non-christians, this couldn’t happen per the lies of Christians like span who want to claim we are all just such horrible people.   There is nothing in Revelation 20:7-9 that there are still anyone other than Christians left.  “⁷ When the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison ⁸ and will come out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea. ⁹ They marched up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from heaven^[b] and consumed them. ¹⁰ And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

what we have is that satan is freed to corrupt the Christians who are the only ones left, the ones that are now deceived.  If this weren’t the case, this would mean that Jesus failed to conquer the beast, the false prophet and those who worshiped them in Chapter 19.  Hmm, how does a perfect being fail?

Span also gets it wrong that people will be in heaven.   Alas, only a few humans get to go there, and Christians don’t agree on just how one figures that bit of nonsense out.   the rest get the tacky city of heaven on earth where we see a god obsessed with worldly wealth.