Tag: gaslighting

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – oh look, excuses by a Christian on why their god does nothing

A Christian commenter on this blog, “Alexander Phaethon” has written this set of excuses for why his god does nothing at all when it comes to children being killed. I’ve added some paragraphing so it’s not one block of text.

“I am, most likely to annoyance of most, going to cite free will here. It’s very true that multiple times in the Bible God intervened to stop a situation, Jesus’s sacrifice in fact is the best example of this. That being said, the Bible explicitly states that we will face trials and tribulation, so God never said everything would always be sunny and bright.

God gives us free will, that means that some people are going to do the wrong things. God actually does intervene in this though, whether we see it or not. For starters, He told Adam and Eve not to eat the apple. When they did, He gave us, conscience, morality, and a list of rules and commandments with which we can shape our lives in the right direction, and then He sent His Son to die for us so that we might be forgiven when we go astray and have the ability to get to heaven.

It’s not my choice whether or not the atheists here choose to believe this, but I wanted to point two things out here. Number one, a person who writes, according to Nan, a “VERY long” essay attempting to blame a being they, presumably, don’t believes exists, is most likely very bitter about something; I would also question this persons line of thought.

Furthermore, it seems to me that such an endeavor as this essay is such a waste of time; if you don’t believe in God, fine, but at least devote your time to writing something useful. Finally, atheists have long proven that they believe they do not need God, therefore, I cannot understand why they are so upset when He doesn’t intervene; after all, why should an atheist expect God to intervene if they think he doesn’t exist? One final thought, God can intervene miraculously sometimes, but we also can’t foresee how certain acts or situations will effect the future.

As terrible as a shooting is, perhaps God did not intervene because that shooting will profoundly change our world and help us make sure that shootings happen less; in other words, if God had prevented that shooting, maybe He also allowed many future shootings. The point is, we do not have the understanding of God, so why should we blame Him when something bad happens? Rather, we should use tragic events as a means to come together and find solutions to some of these problems, not tear each other down, as some people have tried to do here, and in many places elsewhere.”

Well, he hits all of the classic whines and excuses.

Here’s my response:

Alex, you will cite free will, and I, and most here will just sigh at your ignorance. There is no free will in your bible, and as soon as your god assigned the idiotic “original sin”, free will was done.

The bible also says this god will protect its followers from everything. So all your argument ends up being is a display on how the bible is incoherent.

Let me cite those verses for you.

“7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Is there anyone among you who, if your child asked for bread, would give a stone? 10 Or if the child asked for a fish, would give a snake? 11 If you, then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!” Matthew 7

“19 Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them.”” Matthew 18

funny how no exceptions are mentioned here or in the following.

“22 Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God. 23 Truly I tell you, if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and if you do not doubt in your heart but believe that what you say will come to pass, it will be done for you. 24 So I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.” Mark 11

“17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: by using my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”” Mark 16

unsurprisingly, not a single Christian can do this. Did the bible lie or are you all simply not getting something right?

“12 Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If in my name you ask me[f] for anything, I will do it.” John 14

“7 If you abide in me and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.” John 15

“13 Are any among you suffering? They should pray. Are any cheerful? They should sing songs of praise. 14 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up, and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective. 17 Elijah was a human like us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth yielded its harvest.” James 5

It is not until 1 John where the excuse that one has to pray for what is already this god’s will, which makes prayer useless and it is a lovely excuse for when the aforementioned promises fail.

“Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” Romans 12

” God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.” Psalm 46

“He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will abide in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say to the Lord, “My refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.” For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence. He will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness is a shield and buckler. You will not fear the terror of the night, nor the arrow that flies by day, ” Psalm 91

“Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; you anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life,and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord my whole life long.” Psalm 23 (quite a failure for the “shepherd”)

In Eden, your god said that the entire garden was for humans in the first story, and in the second version it says don’t eat or you will die that day. So we have no mention of magic trees or we have a lie. You get to choose which one is the “real” story, Alex.

This god of yours didn’t want humans to know right and wrong, Alex. It only wanted obedience. The only reason we have a conscience, per your myths, is because Eve ate the apple. The god wanted us ignorant. Eve gave us morality. And then, rather than just resetting things with Adam and EVe, your god throws a tantrum, and blames everyone for what they did, destroying any concept of free will. If I am damned through no fault of my own, there is no free will. Then your god decides, after failing for supposed thousands of years, that it needs a death by torture to make it feel better. That’s simply disgusting.

Then, Alex, you try the usual whine of “oh dear, why do atheists point out how idiotic we are if they don’t believe in it?” It’s because your lies cause real harm, Alex. No one needs to be “bitter” to point out lies. Devoting one’s time to pointing out lies is useful, and happily, here in the US, Chrsitianity is losing followers. From a 90+% belief rate, we are down into the 70s. And in addition to that, Christians all contradict each other, so there aren’t even that many TrueChristians(tm) in existence; they all hate each other.

Your religion depends on victim blaming when its lies and false promises fail. You invent excuses, including that someone didn’t pray “correctly”, wasn’t a “real” Christian, to cling to this harmful nonsense.

You have no evidence that this god intervenes at all, “miraculously” or not. You try to offer the tedious Christian claim of “but but maybe god needs to kill a child for his “plan”” Hmm, if there is a plan, then there is no free will, ifthis god must take the life of someone, the ultimate ceasing of free will.

You are just one more selfish, ignorant Christian, Alex. There is no surprises here with your excuses. You try to claim “but but we can’t understand god” when you claim to constantly understand him when it comes to what morals this god wants, etc. it’s ever so convenient to claim “God’s mysterious ways”. You have no problem at all praising god when something good happens, stealing the honor and responsibility from humans as is the wont of selfish, greedy Christians.

I don’t need kids being literally ripped apart by bullets to “come together” or to “teach”. That you do shows exactly how Christianity is evil. And yes dear, I can say that with my happily subjective morality. I would not accept such atrocities by a human so I certainly wouldn’t from a god.

As for your rules, funny how you and other Christians don’t follow them when you don’t feel like it. You invent reasons why the inconvenient ones don’t apply to you.

The excuses and false claimed used by Alex, and *so* many Christians, are why I stand against Christianity.

Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Gaslighting, theist style

The Christians at GotQuestions? (self-described as “Christian, Protestant, evangelical, theologically conservative, and non-denominational” aka Christians who have also invented their own nonsense) have a video on gaslighting. What is gaslighting? | GotQuestions.org – YouTube Now, gaslighting is when an abuser tries to convince their victim that they are wrong in someway.   The gotquestions folks have it like this (the quotes are from the autogenerated transcript on youtube):

“Gaslighting has three main components: First) Convincing the victim that the abuse  she suffers is her fault, Second) Convincing the victim that she did not experience what she  thinks she did, and Third) Separating the victim from people who support her. The tone of the victimizer can alternate between being concerned and kind and angry and abusive. The victim slowly learns to mistrut her own judgement, perception and even sanity  until she relies on the abuser to define reality for her.”

Not a bad set of examples.

The problem for the Christians is that their religion does *all* of these things to its followers.  

“Not all gaslighters are aware of what they are  doing. Some have so deceived themselves they actually believe the lies they’re telling. Others  are so afraid of the truth that they do anything they can to hide it”

Hmmm. 

“gaslighting is sin and comes from a place  of selfishness and a desire to control.In fact, gaslighting was utilized in the  first temptation mentioned in the Bible. Satan first prompts Eve to question what she  heard God say about the tree of knowledge, and then he asserts that her account  is wrong. That is gaslighting,”

Actually, it’s not.  The snake doesn’t say her account is wrong.  The snake, either allowed in intentionally by this god or this god was unable to keep it out, points out what this god said exactly.  Let’s look at what was written for this scene:

“15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.””

and then we have, Eve, who didn’t hear the above since she wasn’t in existence and this god thought aarvarks and zebras would make suitable mates for Adam.  The snake chats her up and says “3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other wild animal that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God say, ‘You shall not eat from any tree in the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, nor shall you touch it, or you shall die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not die; 5 for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves.”

Eve actually gets the story wrong.  She doesn’t mention the whole dying the day you eat the fruit part.  The snake points out that this god’s claim is false, and it is since, nope, they don’t die and the fruit worked just as it said.  There is also a couple of problems: the first version of the genesis story has this god saying *everything* in the garden is for Adam and Eve; no mention of the magic trees at all; and if being naked is a sin *and* there is objective morality, then being naked is always a sin and this god has no problem with sin, until he wants to throw a tantrum. Eve became wise and decided to give the fruit to Adam too. This god appears to be terrified of wisdom.

Who does the gaslighting here?  God.
 
“Gaslighting is also common in cults and abusive  “churches,” as well as politics. It can be seen in abusers who convince children they deserve  or desire their abuse. In preachers who tell  questioning parishioners that their request  for clarification on spiritual matters is  

sinful mistrust of God and disrespect of the  pastor. Or in parishioners who criticize and  then vaguely praise their pastor in an attempt  to control him. In the political arena,  when a leader or even a country flatly denies  doing or saying what they publicly did or said, others may find it extremely  difficult to counter the lie,  especially if the media provides cover, or  to address the issue in a meaningful way.”

Gaslighting is indeed common in cults and religions, and as we see above, right from the beginning it needs gaslighting to keep control over others, by misinformation and by fear. 

Chistianity is built on the idea that everyone deserves death and worse.  Christianity is built on not asking questions but obedience.  Christianity is built on assuming someone else is your only path to being “saved”. Christianity is built on being told to believe in things that aren’t in evidence.

The bit about leaders denying things is pretty rich from conservative Christians that we can pretty much know supported known liars.   

“For by the grace given me  I say to every one of you:  Do not think of yourself more highly than  you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God  has distributed to each of you” (Romans 12:3).

“Be devoted to one another in love. Honor  one another above yourselves” (Romans 12:10).

If you realize—or you’re told—that you are  manipulative and controlling, please seek counseling. It’s likely there is a deep-seated  wound that only Jesus can heal. And He is willing!”

“For the Abused – God made us to be interdependent  on others in the church, but He did not make us to abandon all reason and rely solely on another’s  judgment. God wants us to live in the truth.“Guide me in your truth and teach  me, for you are God my Savior,  and my hope is in you all day long” (Psalm 25:5).”

“Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is  true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely,  whatever is admirable—if anything  is excellent or praiseworthy—think  about such things” (Philippians 4:8).

“For the Spirit God gave us does  not make us timid, but gives us power, love, and  self-discipline” (2 Timothy 1:7).

“If you suspect you are being gaslighted, please  seek counseling. Do not isolate yourself from godly friends. And, if need be, keep a journal  so you can remind yourself of the facts.  If the gaslighter is a partner in a  dating relationship, seriously consider  ending that relationship. If you  feel gaslighted in the church and  discouraged from finding answers to your  spiritual questions, visit GotQuestions.org!”

Amazing how the recommendations above are *exactly* what a gaslighter would say.  Others are to be listened to, for the only “counselors” would be pastors for these people. Only be around those who agree with me.  Only accept manipulation.  Believe only me. 

No wonder they don’t allow comments.