Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Gaslighting, theist style

The Christians at GotQuestions? (self-described as “Christian, Protestant, evangelical, theologically conservative, and non-denominational” aka Christians who have also invented their own nonsense) have a video on gaslighting. What is gaslighting? | GotQuestions.org – YouTube Now, gaslighting is when an abuser tries to convince their victim that they are wrong in someway.   The gotquestions folks have it like this (the quotes are from the autogenerated transcript on youtube):

“Gaslighting has three main components: First) Convincing the victim that the abuse  she suffers is her fault, Second) Convincing the victim that she did not experience what she  thinks she did, and Third) Separating the victim from people who support her. The tone of the victimizer can alternate between being concerned and kind and angry and abusive. The victim slowly learns to mistrut her own judgement, perception and even sanity  until she relies on the abuser to define reality for her.”

Not a bad set of examples.

The problem for the Christians is that their religion does *all* of these things to its followers.  

“Not all gaslighters are aware of what they are  doing. Some have so deceived themselves they actually believe the lies they’re telling. Others  are so afraid of the truth that they do anything they can to hide it”

Hmmm. 

“gaslighting is sin and comes from a place  of selfishness and a desire to control.In fact, gaslighting was utilized in the  first temptation mentioned in the Bible. Satan first prompts Eve to question what she  heard God say about the tree of knowledge, and then he asserts that her account  is wrong. That is gaslighting,”

Actually, it’s not.  The snake doesn’t say her account is wrong.  The snake, either allowed in intentionally by this god or this god was unable to keep it out, points out what this god said exactly.  Let’s look at what was written for this scene:

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.””

and then we have, Eve, who didn’t hear the above since she wasn’t in existence and this god thought aarvarks and zebras would make suitable mates for Adam.  The snake chats her up and says “Now the serpent was more crafty than any other wild animal that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God say, ‘You shall not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, nor shall you touch it, or you shall die.’” But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not die; for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves.”

Eve actually gets the story wrong.  She doesn’t mention the whole dying the day you eat the fruit part.  The snake points out that this god’s claim is false, and it is since, nope, they don’t die and the fruit worked just as it said.  There is also a couple of problems: the first version of the genesis story has this god saying *everything* in the garden is for Adam and Eve; no mention of the magic trees at all; and if being naked is a sin *and* there is objective morality, then being naked is always a sin and this god has no problem with sin, until he wants to throw a tantrum. Eve became wise and decided to give the fruit to Adam too. This god appears to be terrified of wisdom.

Who does the gaslighting here?  God.
 
“Gaslighting is also common in cults and abusive  “churches,” as well as politics. It can be seen in abusers who convince children they deserve  or desire their abuse. In preachers who tell  questioning parishioners that their request  for clarification on spiritual matters is  

sinful mistrust of God and disrespect of the  pastor. Or in parishioners who criticize and  then vaguely praise their pastor in an attempt  to control him. In the political arena,  when a leader or even a country flatly denies  doing or saying what they publicly did or said, others may find it extremely  difficult to counter the lie,  especially if the media provides cover, or  to address the issue in a meaningful way.”

Gaslighting is indeed common in cults and religions, and as we see above, right from the beginning it needs gaslighting to keep control over others, by misinformation and by fear. 

Chistianity is built on the idea that everyone deserves death and worse.  Christianity is built on not asking questions but obedience.  Christianity is built on assuming someone else is your only path to being “saved”. Christianity is built on being told to believe in things that aren’t in evidence.

The bit about leaders denying things is pretty rich from conservative Christians that we can pretty much know supported known liars.   

“For by the grace given me  I say to every one of you:  Do not think of yourself more highly than  you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God  has distributed to each of you” (Romans 12:3).

“Be devoted to one another in love. Honor  one another above yourselves” (Romans 12:10).

If you realize—or you’re told—that you are  manipulative and controlling, please seek counseling. It’s likely there is a deep-seated  wound that only Jesus can heal. And He is willing!”

“For the Abused – God made us to be interdependent  on others in the church, but He did not make us to abandon all reason and rely solely on another’s  judgment. God wants us to live in the truth.“Guide me in your truth and teach  me, for you are God my Savior,  and my hope is in you all day long” (Psalm 25:5).”

“Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is  true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely,  whatever is admirable—if anything  is excellent or praiseworthy—think  about such things” (Philippians 4:8).

“For the Spirit God gave us does  not make us timid, but gives us power, love, and  self-discipline” (2 Timothy 1:7).

“If you suspect you are being gaslighted, please  seek counseling. Do not isolate yourself from godly friends. And, if need be, keep a journal  so you can remind yourself of the facts.  If the gaslighter is a partner in a  dating relationship, seriously consider  ending that relationship. If you  feel gaslighted in the church and  discouraged from finding answers to your  spiritual questions, visit GotQuestions.org!”

Amazing how the recommendations above are *exactly* what a gaslighter would say.  Others are to be listened to, for the only “counselors” would be pastors for these people. Only be around those who agree with me.  Only accept manipulation.  Believe only me. 

No wonder they don’t allow comments.

48 thoughts on “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Gaslighting, theist style

      1. Clubschadenfreude wrote: “Happily, poor dear SOM is wrong again. He must claim that all humans must self-deceive since they dare not to agree with him.”

        That is a personal opinion expressed as malicious, abuse, nothing more. You are proof of the fact that self-deception is the human condition. Such has nothing to do with agreement or disagreement with anyone.

        The Bible teaches mankind about the human condition. Therefore, it is not surprising that you hate it so; along with hating others as you hate yourself. Loose the hate and you will allow yourself to benefit from biblical wisdom.

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      2. and more tantrum throwing by SOM. The bible does indeed teach some about the human condition, the very common need by humans to try to pretend some magical being agrees with them so that they may feel special. Alas, poor SOM, who wants to histrionically claim “abuse” if someone shows that his claims are wrong. Such a wannabee martyr.

        There is no wisdom in the bible that cannot be found somewhere else, without the ignorance that the bible’s many authors recorded.

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      3. Club, Why do you characterize a statement of fact as a temper tantrum? I think that you not being able to express coherent arguments and instead resort to insults, would be a cause for shame.

        Would it not be more beneficial to have a civilized conversation? I love the pursuit of the truth through dialogue. That is the way Socrates and Plato did it 2400 years ago.

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      4. Still no evidence, still no statements of fact and yet more desperate attempts to convince me to agree with him. SOM has demonstrated that he does not love the pursuit of truth through dialog nor able to hold a “civilized” conversation.

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      5. Pink, my good man, thank you for noticing my absence! I live a quiet life free of everything COVID-19. I don’t care about vaccines or mask mandates. Neither does my employer. The US courts have ruled federal mandates illegal, so life goes on happily and freely.

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      6. Why is my yearning for freedom a sign of ignorance and selfishness? The survival rate from the Wuhan flu is just shy of 100%. There exist all sorts of safe, effective remedies in addition to the vaccines, which we all know now, are not really vaccines, but remedies.

        The science clearly supports freedom, not slavery to authoritarian governments.

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      7. you don’t “yearn for freedom” at all. You yearn to force your lies on others. I also love how a poor lil’ bigot like you keeps on lying.

        Your lies harm others, SOM. The survival rate for covid is not “just shy of 100%” You are such an incompetent liar.

        Hmm, slavery like your god approves of? “18 Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. 19 For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. 20 If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God’s approval. ” 1 Peter 2

        Tsk, poor SOM, ignoring his god’s requirement.

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      8. So, SOM do show where I’d done any gaslighting. This should be fun to watch him thrash around and whine. Let me guess, he’ll do the usual christian thing and claim that “everyone” can see it, since he won’t be able to support his claim.

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      9. clubschadenfreude, where did all your hate come from? I could only tolerate evangelical Christians for 6 weeks before I had to bug out. Stupid you, must have stayed much longer and allowed your teeth to be kicked in. Lose the stupid so you can pursue happiness once again. And lose the hate, too. It is unhealthy.

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      10. Oh dear, and more drama queen antics. Alas for SOM, he’s just like those Christians he hates. He’s so terribly upset that I’m happy and others are too; no one needs or wants SOM.

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      11. Club, All the drama is yours as seen by the hateful sadism in your comments. I do not hate Christians. I disagree with Protestantism because it, like atheism, is 100% faith-based. I prefer to have a brain of my own and work on teaching it how to think rationally. Nevertheless evangelical Christianity is a major force for good.

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      12. Christianity is based on claiming those who disagree with you deserve death or worse. That is hate. His version of Christianity is no less faith based than all of the others. Evangelical Christianity is not a major force for good. It is major force for spreading bigotry and lies, including those about the covid virus. Happily, “good” means far more than just being a certain kind of Christian.

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      1. Bill, you wrote, “Got it. One man’s freedom fighter is another’s terrorist. 🙂”

        That sort of relativism is deadly. The American Way of thinking is the pursuit of truth through dialogue, not fortune cookie philosophy. Or in clubschadenfreude’s case, sadistically abusing anyone who does not agree with her.

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      2. Deadly? I’ve never seen that in a fortune cookie. The idiom I wrote applies to different points of view. We have them.

        If you don’t like how she conducts her blog, that is up to you. Don’t read it.

        Please, do not try to school me on “The American Way” of anything. It’s condescending and I will ignore your ass.

        Liked by 1 person

      3. Bill, It is my job as an American to school leftists like you on what it means to be American. You folks enjoy all the fruits of liberty and like the universe, you think they just happen all by themselves.

        The universe has a cause. That cause is God. America has a cause based in “the Laws of Nature and Nature’s God.”

        Like Saint Paul and the early Christians, people like me are venturing out into a collapsing civilization bringing truth, healing and a new civilization built on the ashes of the old one.

        It took Christians 1500 years to build Christian Western Civilization on the ashes of the old Greco-Roman civilization. Today’s Americans can do that much more quickly because we already know what to do.

        Liked by 1 person

      4. Ok then. The fruits of the Universe? Well, damn, Sam, that is BIG! It is your job? No shit?

        Now you see, I asked you not to do that. You think it’s your job. I’m gunna have to cut you loose Mind Man.

        And, BTW, this is gaslighting: “You folks enjoy all the fruits of liberty and like the universe,” Or at least you tried.

        A lefty? No one has ever said that about me. Thank you. 🙂

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      5. SOM has no idea what it means to be an American. He stands against every American ideal which is liberty for all. He would much prefer a theocracy.

        I do love how he quotes deist ideas in his delusion. It’s even better that he claims to bring healing when that is not the case, demonstrating that even per his own bible, he is not a Christian at all since he can’t heal as promised. As per the usual wannabee nazi aka Christian nationalist, he makes false claims about “Christian western civilization”.

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      6. Club, The 1st Amendment to the US Constitution demonstrates that America was founded on the idea of religious liberty, not religious theocracy. A real Americans believe in religious freedom not a government-run theocracy.

        Further, the idea of God is not religious, but simple common sense. Atheism, the idea that everything just happened all by itself, is a 100% faith-based idea, just like evangelical Protestantism.

        Even further, I can prove the existence of God with science. Can you do the same with your precious 100% faith-based religion of atheism?

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      7. ROFL. Oh my. Yep, the US was indeed founded on the principle of religoius liberty, not the ravings of a wannabee theocrat like you.

        I do love how religous people like you try to claim that your god isn’t a religous idea. That’s all it is. Every theist claims that their god is “simple common sense”. You also offer the desperate claim that atheism is religious, a common theme when the theist has to pretend that everyone “really does” agree with them.

        You cannot show that your version of your god exist with the scientific method nor any process within the sciences. But do try, dear. This should be hilarious.

        It’s not hard at all to show that your god doesn’t exist: no evidence for the events you claim it caused, adn evidence for entirely other things happening. Evidence of absence and absence of evidence. Tah-dah.

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      8. Club, Your comment about me being a “theocrat wannabe” is a false statement. You offer up a lie and then base the rest of your comment on that lie. That means your entire comment is false. Your tactic here is to rig the argument in your favor with a lie, instead of engaging in a discussion that pursues the truth.

        Just a free and simple lesson in logic for you courtesy of Silence of Mind. I usually charge $500 an hour for my private teaching services.

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      9. and finally, we have our wannabee theocrat complaining that he is outed. we see his support for a theocracy based on his particular version of Christianity, evidently a bastardized version of Roman Catholicism, on his own blog, in his need to claim that homosexual and transgender people need to be considered less than human and not be afforded equal rights.

        I do love the false claim that anyone would pay him for teaching something.

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      10. Poor SOM, his whines are no more than the usual Christian complaint that how dare someone show how they fail and how impolite it is. SOM’s version is quite a bit more histrionic. Unsurprisingly, he can’t actually address my points, but just throws his usual tantrum.

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      11. Club, insulting people you disagree with is a failure on your part. It demonstrates mental illness, and a head devoid of good ideas. Stating facts is not whining. You know that, but you are driven by hatred, so out come the insults.

        Atheist leftists are driven by hatred and thus reject the ideas of truth, beauty and the good.

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      12. SOM is on moderation now since he refuses show any evidence for his claims. If he chooses to give evidence, rather than making vague claims hoping I’ll do his work for him, his comments will be released.

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  1. The scriptural quote used here supposedly from the Book of Genesis is an example of gaslighting. It is the same thing as Democrat Representative Adam Schiff fabricating a dialogue between President Trump and the President of Ukraine before the Congress of the United States. Agents of evil like Clubschadenfreude and Representative Schiff must lie because for them, the truth simply gets in the way.

    Clubschadenfreude will respond to this comment with the usual lunatic asylum, frothing at the mouth hatred. But she will never admit to fabricating a demented, fictional version of Genesis that is clearly a lie. Why lie about something that is so easily exposed as a lie?

    Lying comes easily to atheists because atheism itself is a lie. For atheists meaning is always found in a cheap, dirty worldly objective. Whereas, the Silence of Mind seeks the truth.

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    1. oh look what crawled out of the woodwork. Silence of Mind has one of the best inadvertently appropriate screen names.

      As usual, he makes claims and is completely unable to support them. It’s even funnier that he claims that the verses from Genesis are only “suppoesdly” so. It’s always such a shame that a Christian either has no idea what is in his bible or has found he must try to lie about what it says.

      I also love to see the poor lil’ trumpee whine. Do show where I’ve “fabricated a demented fictional version of Genesis”, SOM. Indeed, why lie about something so easily exposed as a lie? SOM evidently forgets that there are plenty of places on the internet that one can check out what the bible says. One of my favorites is biblegateway.com. One can compare versions of the same set of verses. Here’s a link comparing the verses in Genesis 2:15-25 using the NRSV, NIV and KJV. And here’s a link to the verses in Genesis 3:1-7

      As usual, SOM accuses others of his own flaws, e.g. projection. Nothing new here.

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      1. Yes, Dark passions. Aristotle teaches that we must control our passions and appetites with the virtue of temperance. I have a passion for tasty food as do all animals. Appetite for food is natural. But temperance limits our passion for something natural to what is healthy and beneficial. Thus, I enjoy eating very much, but I limit my consumption.

        Dark passions, on the other hand, are 100% negative and unnatural. Rage, sadism, the dark passions you display in your comments kill healthy and enriching relationships, strangle dialogue, and are a primary cause for foolishness and ignorance.

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      2. This is but one of your lies concerning scripture: “There is also a couple of problems: the first version of the genesis story has this god saying *everything* in the garden is for Adam and Eve; no mention of the magic trees at all.”

        First version, second version, millionth version. There is only one version of the Bible. The stories and books must be taken together and understood as a whole.

        Like your Protestant tormentors you express a personal opinion as if it were the Gospel truth and then cut out snippets of scripture which you interpret yourself, to support your personal opinion.

        That is gaslighting. Classically educated people call what you do, circular reasoning for the specific purpose of deception.

        Happiness is found pursuing the truth. Intentionally lying as you do in each one of your posts, is a symptom of deep discontent and psychological disorder.

        As you comment, be aware of how you maliciously abuse the person to whom you aim you comment. There is no reason to do that, only mental illness and a black heart.

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      3. Unsurprisingly, SOM cannot show that there are not two versions of the creation story in genesis, stories that contradict each other. He helpfully quoted me and was unable to show that I’m wrong.

        There are also quite a few versions of the bible, with many claims of the “right” translation by humans who all claim that this god has guided them. I agree, the stories and books should be taken together and understood as a whole. Doing this shows that it is a compilation of many books written by ignorant humans that often contradict each other, make demonstrably false claims, and are no different than any other set of religious myths.

        SOM then commences to do more projecting and baseless claims. He can’t grasp what gaslighting is nor can show that I’ve done that. The same holds true about his accusations of “circular reasoning”.

        Happiness is indeed pursuing the truth, and not making baseless claims like SOM. Again, he is upset that people will dare to show that he is wrong and that no one needs or wants him or that god he’s invented in his image.

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      4. It is well known that there are two biblical stories concerning Adam and Eve. My point is that all scripture must be taken as a whole. Otherwise, the result is what you do: take scripture out of context so that it supports one of your personal opinions which you try to pass off as the Gospel truth. Opinion is not truth. Using the bible to support a personal opinion is what Protestants do. As an atheist don’t you find what you do shamefully hypocritical.

        I mean, it is not the lowest of the low to use the same logical fallacies and rhetorical tactics that evangelical Christians use?

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      5. Unsurprisingly, SOM now has to admit that there are indeed two stories and I have not done what he has accused me of here “First version, second version, millionth version. There is only one version of the Bible. The stories and books must be taken together and understood as a whole.”

        He of course cannot show that I’ve taken anything out of “context” or that I’ve used any logical fallacies. All he is doing is throwing shit at a wall hoping some of it will stick.

        He is right, opinion is not truth and all of his claims are simply baseless opinion. Every Christian, including SOM, uses the bible to support their personal opinion aka version of Christianity.

        Like

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