One of the strangest things about religion is the concept of apologetics. Apologetics is essentially when criticism of a position is answered and rebutted, or at least that’s attempted. It can be used for any position but the term is usually used for attempts to defend religious positions and beliefs. The strangeness of apologetics in religion is that there should be no need for it at all. If religion is truth and if it is from a omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent (e.g. the God is love! nattering) god, it should be self-evident within the words themselves. It should not change from person to person, culture to culture and age to age.
However, it does and many theists know that this is a problem, one made worse with the advent of easy information retrieval. They often say that apologetics is “just” the defense of their faith, but in reality, it is “defense of my version of my faith, the only *right* one”. Those two things are quite a bit different.
Since I know Christianity better, I shall focus on that. However, most points made about it will be applicable to any religion. Here’s a brief overview.
Apologetics started early in Christianity, with JC being called on the spot to defend his version of Judaism against the Saducees and Pharisees, if the story is to be believed. His teachings were different than the other Jews but if one reads the bible, the differences were more about the intent of the law as opposed to the application. For instance, should the draconian law of no one may work on a “Sabbath” be understood as that or should there be some leeway in the interpretation so one isn’t murdering people for tending the ill, milking a cow, etc? And having lived on a dairy farm, I know that cows do not care about the Sabbath. You might think that this god would have “intelligently designed” them so they did. 🙂
Indeed, this concept of interpretation is the basis of religious apologetics everywhere: what does this stuff *really* mean and how can we determine it?
Paul continued on the path of apologetics when he came up with his own versions of what this god really meant and his own defense of it. One can find websites devoted to the idea that JC and Paul did not agree on many things (an interesting one demonstrating the fractioning of Christianity along those lines from Christianity Today notice the “careful nuancing” aka coming up with yet one more “interpretation”. Here’s another and another.). Indeed, you can find websites (here’s one that will burn your eyes by the usual problem that nutty people have with designing a webpage and one about as bad rebutting it) that decry Paul as an anti-christ since he fits the warning JC gave about anti-christs nicely.(Matthew 24).
Perhaps the most famous of Paul’s apologetics is one found in Romans 1, where Paul says that one only has to look around to see evidence for this god of his, e.g. the universe is the “evidence” for his god. Alas for Paul, most, if not all, religions claim this for their gods too. And we have yet to have a way to find out, which if any, are responsible. This is another weakness in apologetics; all theists use the same arguments for *their* god which makes it difficult to find any that have a better argument than the rest.
Apologetics continue for years, through the “early church fathers” (Augstine on who really goes to hell) to Martin Luther. Then we get a big change of mind on what this god really meant, and whether we should go “sola scriptura” (only the book aka Bible) or do we hold with the supposed unbroken line from Peter himself and their writings? There is a change from needing a certain type of baptism to protect our eternal souls and now we have many varieties. What is needed for salvation changes, is it grace, works or belief? Is hell a real place, is it fire, worms and torture?
Taking a big step forward in time, then we come to more modern apologists like C.S. Lewis. Mr. Lewis says that we shouldn’t tell potential Christians about all of these differences:
“And secondly, I think we must admit that the discussion of these disputed points has no tendency at all to bring an outsider into the Christian fold. So long as we write and talk about them we are much more likely to deter him from entering any Christian communion than to draw him into our own. Our divisions should never be discussed except in the presence of those who have already come to believe that there is one God and that Jesus Christ is His only Son” – Mere Christianity
That certainly seems to be an intentional lie of omission. Hell becomes just a “separation from God”, none of that icky torture. We have the prosperity gospel take the stage, where God suddenly wants you to be rich! And some Christians say that everyone will be going to heaven, just a short stay in hell to correct you is all that’s needed.
We also have all of those apologetics for why no one can find any evidence for the bible’s essential events. Those have been covered on this blog before e.g. the flood (my multi-part series), the exodus, the cruxifiction, etc. One can find many good reviews of apologetic books here at Ebon Musings. No reason to reinvent the wheel.
Again, none of these versions are any more “truth” than the next.
Apologetics is an industry created to form excuses when Christians don’t like something that their supposed “holy” book tells them to do or they don’t like the implications of what the book says and have to “correct” it. The mere existence of apologetics demonstrates that the claims of religion to have some magical “truth” are simply nonsense. This is especially amusing when the apologetics of the various sects don’t agree. It does make it seems like this god mumbles a lot, but the same result can come from humans who try to spread myths and then try to make them fit their personal hatreds and desires.
To finish, I found this speech by Red Jacket, a Seneca(one of the tribes of native peoples of the US). He spoke this to the US Senate in 1805. Perhaps theists can gain some understanding of why atheists find their apologetic claims so ridiculous by reading the words of a man who has his own religion and is facing the antics of missionaries. It’s not like the questions are new.
http://www.bartleby.com/268/8/3.html#txt1 Red Jacket’s speech to the US Senate in 1805 about religious freedom.
“Brother, continue to listen. You say that you are sent to instruct us how to worship the Great Spirit agreeably to His mind; and, if we do not take hold of the religion which you white people teach we shall be unhappy hereafter. You say that you are right and we are lost. How do we know this to be true? We understand that your religion is written in a Book. If it was intended for us, as well as you, why has not the Great Spirit given to us, and not only to us, but why did He not give to our forefathers the knowledge of that Book, with the means of understanding it rightly. We only know what you tell us about it. How shall we know when to believe, being so often deceived by the white people?
Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?”
Postscript: Hello Christian readers! There certainly are a lot of you. Glad you like, and evidently agree?, with my posts.
12 thoughts on “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Apologetics, the real alchemy”
Very interesting, I’ve only recently realised what apologetics is. When I first saw reference to it, I assumed it was embarrassed Christians trying to justify and explain the bad bits of their faith … and I guess it kind of is. I really like Paul being the anti-Christ, that could be my favourite interpretation yet!
oh I think you hit it on the head because that’s exactly what apologetics is. 🙂 Some are better than hiding their embarassment than others.
You hit on the central problem: If any religion were true there’d be no need for apologetics.
Boss you are it again, showing christians why they should not believe what they believe.
And that gentleman hit the nail, if there was ever a nail, smack on the head with his address to the senate
Alas, most theists will convince themselves that I am not talking about “their” apologetics”.
C.S. Lewis’ quote kinda makes me furious. It’s like a bait-and-switch. Some TV manufacturer merely puts out the glory of its sets, and then you buy it because they have suppressed the superiority of their competitors or spread outright lies about their products.
That’s no ok with supply-and-demand, and it’s almost evil when you do it for a religion- you know, the right-of-passage to get you either into an eternal heaven or not!
It makes me furious too. I’d say it *is* evil, since it is an intentional lie meant only to benefit the pastors and apologists to line their pockets and get the external validation from one more person.
It is certainly at least “sinful” according to these religions. There is no “God hates lies and liars *unless* it’s for him.” I would also argue that repeated lying with no remorse *or* a constant expectation of forgiveness no matter what (the ol’ false theist accusation of atheists expecting god to be a vending machine) is certainly not what the religions teach either.
I don’t like it even if they simply want me to go to heaven, haha
Christian here, with peace,
Well, about the Spirit thing, I just need to make it straight, that the Spirit won’t dwell on anyone who is not holy. And the criteria of holy is to fully submit into the will of God instead of being reluctant and relying on self. And should God makes himself clear and stand for himself without extending His Will into His messengers, then all things that bear unholiness will be eradicated, for God is holy, and ‘holy’ means separated, it can’t mix with anything that is not from Him.
All the Christian apologists are trying to say, if I’m to conclude: “God is waiting every each of human to open his heart and submit, so that He can forgive him and enter him.”
But yeah, it’s no easy feat. People tend to have some kind of ‘wound’ , either they conscious of it or not, that they are trying to protect it, with or without realizing it . Guess nobody like the taste of alchohol on open-wound?
You have made two baseless claims; first that there is a Spirit, and second that you know what it takes to be “holy”. I have had other Christians tell me that there is a Holy Spirit, but they cannot produce evidence for this entity. They also differ on what being holy requires. I ask you: show that you god/spirit exists. This requires evidence, not claims that one can see your god and only your god in the universe. Most, if not all religions claim this and none can show it to be true and the others false.
You wish to claim that to be holy one must submit “fully” to the will of your god. Unfortunately, Christians disagree on what that will entails. We have Christians who are universalists e.g. that this god will accept anyone as long as they conform to some concept of “good”, and we have Christians who are sure that their personal interpretation is the only “right” interpretation. None of you can show that any of your versions are correct. You all insist that this god has been “clear” to you but there is nothing to support this claim, only wishful thinking.
Many Christians do hope that all things that “bear unholiness will be eradicated”, all smugly sure that they are “holy”. That’s the sadistic fantasy best shown in Revelation. Muslims are all about submission but even they can’t agree on what their god has “really” meant with all of their sects, just like Christians. None of you can agree on what this “submission” entails, what laws to follow, etc. We have Christians who are sure that they don’t have to follow the laws supposedly dictated to Moses by God, and we have Christians who are sure that they do, or at least the parts of them that they like. All of you make up your religion to fit your own hates and desires.
You also seem to be using the tedious theist claim that people are somehow “wounded” and thus don’t want to accept your god. No, Louis, plenty of us aren’t “wounded” at all, and know that there is no reason to believe in the gods touted by the world’s religions. Claiming that we are “wounded” is just you trying to lie about us to excuse your god. Lying does seem to be a bad thing in most religions.
I am guessing you don’t accept any other religion but your own, because you are sure that they have less evidence for truth than your religion. An atheist finds this to be true for all religions. None of them have anything to support them except subjective human-based nonsense. All wish to make believe that they have some magical special knowledge and that this knowledge will get them special treatment from some magical being. Christians want to make believe that they have a “savior”, though no evidence of this man/god exists, and that their god answers prayers. Jews want to make believe that they are a “chosen people”, that there was some worldwide flood, but their essential myths cannot be shown to be real. Muslims want to make believe that their prophet is the last and thus most special, and flew to Jerusalem on a magic pony. Wicca want to make believe that spells work. Shintoists want to believe that they can placate spirits. And all have no evidence that their myths and practices work.
Louis, thank you for commenting. If you can support the claims of your version of your religion with evidence, please do so. If not, you have no more than the usual excuses and baseless claims of every religion. I have no more reason to believe you than I do any other theist. You all fail to show that your particular god is the one to place a wager on, and religion causes far too much harm and wastes far too much time and resources to bother to do so “just in case” (aka Pascal’s Wager).
Again, with peace, humility, and respect.
I must praise you for the term “wager” you put on the last part. It is a very accurate word, because in Christianity, God demands who wish to follow Him to wager their faith, and thus in it, it shall be testified, that He is the one true God.
Seeing how you describe your opinion, you are an agnostic ,in which knowledge and beliefs is bound only to personal experiences, are you not? And also you claim that Christianity or any religions is risky and it cause too much pain to wager your life just to experience it.
I won’t make any rebuttle to your statement, because using the ‘earthly law’ or agnosticsm, your truth and mine has the same level, which means I can’t claim my truth better than yours, but neither do you with your framing that religion cause troubles, while there is a plethora of variables intervening in humanity.
I do must make it clear though: that Jesus, did chronologically exist. You can look for history scientific literatures for it, (Wikipedia “Historical Jesus” would make it for the outlines) , though believing whether He is the Man-God and Savior , or he is just a big liar, or just another madman , or sorcerer, is after all, another thing.
Again, I’m not wedging rebuttles and I am far from what you and I call “holy”.
But I will give some comparison for your statements using the verses of bible. I know, it is far from the kind of proofs you seek and you don’t have to believe me. But please do think it as lens of the sincere believers:
1. “I have had other Christians tell me that there is a Holy Spirit, but they cannot produce evidence for this entity”
(17) And these attesting signs will accompany those who believe: in My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages;
(18) They will pick up serpents; and [even] if they drink anything deadly, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will get well.
2.” I ask you: show that you god/spirit exists.”
(3) My tears have been my food day and night, while men say to me all day long, Where is your God?
3. “You all insist that this god has been “clear” to you but there is nothing to support this claim, only wishful thinking ”
(5) Such hope never disappoints or deludes or shames us, for God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit Who has been given to us.
4. “Many Christians do hope that all things that “bear unholiness will be eradicated”, all smugly sure that they are “holy”
(11) And they have overcome (conquered) him by means of the blood of the Lamb and by the utterance of their testimony, for they did not love and cling to life even when faced with death [holding their lives cheap till they had to die for their witnessing].
5. “….but even they can’t agree on what their god has “really” meant with all of their sects, just like Christians. ”
(32) Now the company of believers was of one heart and soul, and not one of them claimed that anything which he possessed was [exclusively] his own, but everything they had was in common and for the use of all.
2 Corinthians 13:11
(11) Finally, brethren, farewell (rejoice)! Be strengthened (perfected, completed, made what you ought to be); be encouraged and consoled and comforted; be of the same [agreeable] mind one with another; live in peace, and [then] the God of love [Who is the Source of affection, goodwill, love, and benevolence toward men] and the Author and Promoter of peace will be with you.
6. “No, Louis, plenty of us aren’t “wounded” at all, ”
(23) Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives.
7. “If you can support the claims of your version of your religion with evidence, please do so.”
(1) NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].
8. ” I have no more reason to believe you than I do any other theist.”
(33) Either make the tree sound (healthy and good), and its fruit sound (healthy and good), or make the tree rotten (diseased and bad), and its fruit rotten (diseased and bad); for the tree is known and recognized and judged by its fruit.
9. “You all fail to show that your particular god is the one to place a wager on, and religion causes far too much harm and wastes far too much time and resources to bother to do so “just in case” (aka Pascal’s Wager).”
(16) You shall suck the milk of the [Gentile] nations and shall suck the breast of kings; and you shall recognize and know that I, the Lord, am your Savior and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
(16) You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you and I have appointed you [I have planted you], that you might go and bear fruit and keep on bearing, and that your fruit may be lasting [that it may remain, abide], so that whatever you ask the Father in My Name [as presenting all that I AM], He may give it to you.
(7) Again He sets a definite day, [a new] Today, [and gives another opportunity of securing that rest] saying through David after so long a time in the words already quoted, Today, if you would hear His voice and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts.
And thus, this is a little of views on how believers see things. Again, you can say this is baseless. But to me, these words which seemed to be mumbo-jumbo at first, ironically lead me to liberation to another liberation. My God gives me meaning for life, a destiny to be chased.
Again I take no pride in what I deliver to you. Neither do I write these out of ill-feel. But it is because I love my God that I talk about His words and His covenants. Again it is by no mean to force you to believe me.
Joy, love, and grace be with you.
When you come to a person’s blog and make baseless claims, this does not show that you are peaceful, humble or respectful to the person. Christianity is nothing more than a religion based on fear, where people are threatened by hell if they do not believe in claims that cannot be shown to be true. You want me to be afraid, and that is sad that anyone would play on fear. Your religion does not demand wagers, it demands unconditional obedience and ignorant blind faith based on the promises of a god that cannot be shown to exist. If one is to believe the stories in the bible, your god requires horrible actions from its believers. It is sad that people want to believe in a being that demands genocide.
Every theist claims that their god or gods are the only “true” gods. You all fail to show that any of your gods exist, and you also fail to show that everyone else’s god is a fake. You all use the same excuses for your gods. Even in very related religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, the believers are sure that those “others” are wrong, but can’t show that this is the case. Your god is a fantasy, no different than Zeus, Odin, Ameratsu, Anasi, Ishtar, Ra, etc.
I am not an agnostic, Louis. I am an atheist, someone who is sure that there is no good reason to believe in a god/s. I do agree that there is some slim possibility that there is some kind of thing that might be a god but it is not probable, and it is not likely that it is *your* version of your god. I am also not an agnostic about fairies, because I am just as sure that fairies don’t exist as I am that your god does not exist.
You try an amusing tactic, to try to claim that I only have my personal experience to give me knowledge. That is a common excuse by a theist, when they want to pretend that their god can exist. It’s one step from solipsism and that is the only place that a theist can go when playing pretend that their god exists. You have to claim that no one knows anything “for sure”, which is false.
Religion, including Christianity, causes harm. At one point it may have had a use, helping primitive humans survive. Anymore, it has nothing that is not offered by something else without hatred and intolerance that religion teaches.. Here in the US, in my state of Pennsylvania, we have parents who murder their children because they think the Christian god will heal them as promised in the bible. This healing never happens and people die horribly because of religious based ignorance. We also have people killing each other because they disagree on religion and whose god is the “real” one. They also destroy priceless artifacts because they think that some god “disapproves” of them in their religious ignorance.
Your claims are not the same as mine, Louis. You have no evidence for your claims. I do have evidence that supports my claim that your god imaginary. None of the supposed events in the various holy books can be shown to have happened and evidence that entirely other events did happen. You have no truth, Louis, none at all. I can easily claim my facts to be much better than your myths and nonsense. Louis, you with your arrogant assumptions that you are right show that you do try your best to declare that your truths are better than everyone else’s.
If there were no religion, that does not mean that humanity gets magically better. I do not claim that. What I do claim is that religion is one useless thing we can get rid of because it is harmful, and at least we can get humanity that much better.
There is *no* evidence that Jesus Christ existed. It’s amusing that you say that I should go look at the wiki entry about “historical Jesus” as “evidence”. I have looked at that and I know exactly what it says which is not that there is a historical Jesus Christ. You should read it for yourself rather than assuming that it says what you want to make believe it does. At best, there might have been one itinerant rabbi that wandered around the eastern end of the Mediterranean, but there were likely hundreds of those considering all of the claimants to be the “messiah”. But this isn’t your savior at all, is it, Louis? That’s not who Christians claim they worship and claim existed. Without there being evidence of a man/god doing miracles, your religion is worthless, just as much fiction as the religions of the Ancient Egyptians, the Greeks, the ancient Chinese, etc. No one noticed a magical man doing miracles at all, the Romans never noticed a legion’s worth of men gathering just outside of an occupied city, no one noticed the supposed decimation of the kingdom of Egypt when its entire army was supposedly destroyed by a god, leaving it open to conquest. You unsurprisingly try to use the “lord, liar, lunatic” argument, which fails because it is a logical fallacy in it pretends that there are only those three choices. There is at least one more choice: legend. It’s just a story, like the legends about Herakles are stories, the stories about Gilgamesh are stories, etc.
You are “wedging rebuttlals”, Louis, because you are trying to tell me I’m wrong, which is exactly what a rebuttal is. You are not the pious humble being that you wish to pretend you are.
Using verses of the bible is amusing because it’s nothing more than one more TrueTheist who wants to pretend that they and only they know what their god really meant, and they can’t even show that this god exists. I know that “sincere believers” belive in that nonsense, and it’s always great to see theists insist that only their version of their religion is the true one, the only one correct with “sincere believers”. You all think each other is wrong, and there is yet to be any way for you to show that you are right and someone who you are sure isn’t a “sincere believer” is wrong.
So, let’s look at your claims.
1. Where are those people who can do the magic that you promise they can do? Show me real demons exist, Louis. Show me that people can drink a mixture of cyanide that can kill and live, say around 200 milligrams. Most “faithful” ingest far less than is lethal in order to lie to people. Let me see that someone can be struck by a full load of venom from a black mamba and live. Here in the US, we have idiots who practice snake handling and they often die. Now, the usual excuse by a TrueChristan is that if they die, they weren’t faithful “enough” or that it was “God’s will”. Both are hilarious excuses made up since the magic promised by their bible fails.
2. Yep, people have asked that theists show that their god exists. Now, if one read the bible, it used to be no problem for this god to show it exists, the competing magic spells in Exodus, a magical hand writing words, this god actually healing people, and don’t forget the evidence that Thomas required and was given with no problem. You only offer more excuses. You offer the same excuses that all theists give when their gods can’t do what is promised. I’m sure theists do weep because people dare to question their lies.
3. Considering how many people die from the lack of healing from this god, and the failures of its promises, your hope does disappoint. There is nothing that shows that your hope is based on anything but delusion, just like the hope of every other theist. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Wicca, are all failures. You want to pretend you are so much better than everyone else, that some god takes care of you and you can’t show this to be true at all. This hope has also had theists making claims that “real soon now” their gods will come back, that their gods will punish people who speak against them, etc, and those claims all fail.
4. Yep, most if not all theists claim that all things that disagree with them will be eradicated. They claim that they are so favored by their gods that they get miracles but have nothing but delusion and coincidence. It’s great that you quote Revelation because it’s a great one to see just how arrogant and sadistic Christians are. They are desperate for anything to show that their faith isn’t a waste of time, hoping that their god will return and punish those people who said that they were wrong. I like Revelation because it does such a good job in showing what a pathetic character the Christian god is, supposedly killing everyone who disagrees with him and then intentionally allowing his arch enemy to come back, after allowing Christ to rule for an ‘aeon”, to further corrupt humanity so this god can have one last big battle for no good reason.
5. Again, show me that your version of Christianity, or whatever religion you follow, is the only “right” one, Louis. You pick and choose what you want to believe in the bible, just like everyone else, smug in the assumption that you and you alone are correct. The verse from Acts is very nice but does not reflect reality at all. Neither does the verse from 2 Corinthians. All Christians want to make believe that they are the TrueChristians and that everyone else isn’t. And none of you can do the magic that JC promised you’d be able to do (see #1).
6. Ah, and back to your false claim that people are some how “wounded”, the usual theist attempt to make believe that anyone who isn’t like them is somehow less than they are. Yep, Louis, your bible makes claims that everyone is a sinner and “falling short” but you cannot show this to be true anymore than you can show that your god exists. I can’t fall short of something that is imaginary. Your religion must claim that we need to be fearful of sin and hell so we will obey your imaginary god. Sorry, not interested in imaginary gods and their imaginary hells.
7. So, you still can’t support the claims of your version of your religion. How unsurprising. Nope, we just get more vague claims and promises that have not been shown to be true at all. I do like how you use the verse from Hebrews when once upon a time your god didn’t have to hide behind claims that one must believe with no evidence. If one believes the bible, that didn’t used to be the case. This god had no problems in showing it existed. Ah, but when people started to question, then believers had to change the rules so their religion didn’t fail when they couldn’t do what they promised.
8. Yep, I still don’t have any more reason to believe your myths and nonsense than I do the myths and nonsense of any other believer. The fruit of your tree shows me that you are all telling lies because none of your claims can be shown to be true. If you must rely on lies, your fruit is quite rotten.
9. You still have not shown that your particular god is the one to be wagered on, Louis. None of you can show that your gods exist or even do as you claim. Now, you could drink 8 oz of water with 200 mg of sodium cyanide in it and if you survive you will certainly give me a reason to believe. Will you do that, Louis? If you think your bible makes a truthful claim, there should be no problem. I don’t think it does, so I don’t think you should do it because you will die.
More verses from the bible making more baseless claims. Still not seeing the nations of the earth “sucking” anything. More and more people aren’t recognizing your religion as true at all. Christians have been promising that this will happen for 2000+ years now and still nothing. There is nothing to show that any god has “chosen” anything either, Louis. And ah, always good to hear about hardening hearts. Funny how God did that to the pharaoh just to show off, but of course there is no evidence of any of that nonsense happening. The verse from Hebrews is based on the verse in the Psalms, and that has also not been shown to be true.
I know how believers see things, since I once was a believer myself. I know all of the excuses and lies that Christians tell themselves so they don’t realize that their religion is harmful and worthless. I know that these words are believable to you, just as the words of the Qu’ran are believable to a Muslim, the words of the Torah are believable to a Jew, the word of the Avesta are believable to a Zoroasterian. The fact is that no believer can show that what they believe is true.
I have plenty of meaning in my life without having to believe in a being that supports slavery, supports genocide, and now supposedly hides from people. I have a destiny far greater than the destiny that the bible promises, endless praising of a being that does nothing. I am a human that can further the understanding of other humans and help them in real ways, not by folding my hands and “hoping” that prayer and a god does something.
Louis, you think you are right, and I am wrong. If you do believe in the bible, you do believe that I, and everyone else who does not agree with you, somehow deserve being killed and being damned for not believing in something that has nothing to show it’s real. And that’s sad, Louis, for it shows no love or compassion at all, only mindless obedience. You have attempted to present baseless claims to me and expect me to believe them. I find that the most ridiculous part of all. Your belief in your god and its words and covenants are no different than the belief of others and again, none of you can show me that there is any reason to accept such things. The waste of time and resources in believers trying to spread their nonsense is awful, Louis. Through missionaries, through violence, the faithful try to convince others that they are right. We see this again and again with the violence done, the deaths of children, the attempts to make religion law and have people killed and harmed if they don’t follow the religion. This is why I find religion abhorrent, it is action based on falsehoods dependent on making believe one group of people are better than another.