Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – part 2 of the Bill Keller saga, where excuses roam free

In my last blog post, I reported on my interaction with Mr. Bill Keller, and/or one of his minions.  In that episode, I had requested that Mr. Keller join me to take the altar challenge he proposed to the leader of ISIL, to show whose god was real.  Unsurprisingly, he has yet to agree to do that.  He has been a very voluble correspondent and has agreed that I may share his emails with you.  So, we have either Mr. Keller or someone who claims to represent him, one of supposedly 700 retired pastors who answer prayer requests and make sure that their god really does hear them evidently.  This exchange is very typical of someone who has been caught in a false claim and has many common claims and attacks made by theists.

My responses are in my usual longwinded, detail-driven, format.  You have been warned 🙂  Thus, this conversation will be in one or two more blog posts.

Notice:  These exchanges are not meant to indicate that all theists or all Christians are exactly the same.  These are the opinions and claims made by one Christian and are similar to those of a certain subset of Christians.   Most Christians are average nice folks, just like most other theists, agnostics and atheists.  The type of Christians depicted here in their own words are the ones that are best countered. 

You can see my response to his initial reply to me here after the break.  Here’s the response to that:

LOL…hate to correct a mensa..but Liveprayer gets 40,000 emails for prayer..EVERY 24 HOURS…we have over 700 retired pastors who work with the minsitry to insure each one is prayed over..and responded to… 

….and hate to break this to you..but Dr. Keller doesn’t waste his time with people like yourself….and really could CARE LESS what you have to say or think..sorry…..his time is far to valuable to waste it in email back and forths…because of his high profile..the fact he is on TV nightly with over 300k viewers..more than MSNBC..CNN..and a host of other “cable networks”..he attracts all kinds of people..most looking for help..many who need help.like yourself….and I’m very sorry but after your first few sentences you have even bored me to tears to the point it isn’t worth reading,….you really should get some help..but know we will pray for you.. 

..oh..and Dr. Keller has debated publicly and in the media numerous times the top atheists of the day..all who ended up looking like the confused foolish people they are to deny the very existence of God..like yourself..spend their lives trying to fight aginst the very God who created them..and sadly..will most likely die and their last moment will be having the God whose existence they deny casting them into hell for all eternity..but don’t worry..a genius like who has it all figured out has nothing to worry about..which is why those like you amuse me as you waste so much time trying to justify to yourself you are right..LOL!!..enjoy..we will pray you wake up before it is too late..Know that I am praying for you, be richly blessed

So, I’m waiting for these prayers to take effect.  Nothing yet.  Our correspondent has asked that I put a link his prayer service site so you all can realize how right he is and give him money.  I have made a nice link in his post.

Here’s my response to the above:

Mr. Keller, 

I am not in Mensa but it is again wonderful to watch you try to insult me personally.  You tried to insult me by calling me a genius.   I have no reason to believe that anyone gets 40,000 requests for prayers a day.  Even if this were true, and I would love to see the email logs to show that it is, the team of pastors can evidently handle the load since you spend time writing to me and making videos.  Again, your claims are demonstrated to be false by reality.   I also see that you cannot provide where you got your doctorate.  That is unfortunate.   

I do love how now you don’t “waste time with people like” me.  I guess that you have decided that the lost sheep and the doubting Thomas aren’t worth your time, as opposed to what your bible claims.   I am so glad to see that you could care less about another human being, in caps no less.  It does make it seem that you did indeed read my whole letter as opposed to your claims that you haven’t.   You have made a claim and you now refuse to honor it, Mr. Keller.    You have done a “stunt” as you claim because you will not accept an honest challenge, the same challenge that you made.  No one forced you to make such a claim, Mr. Keller.  You made it and now you are asked to fulfill it.  You of course refuse because you know you have no chance of your god answering you at all.  

Mr. Keller, there is no evidence you are on “tv nightly” with 300K viewers. Can you provide evidence to support this claim by providing the network and the statistics?   As for the nightly viewership of MSNBC and CNN, that is a little less than a million during primetime nightly for CNN and about 1.2 million for MSNBC (a random day’s stats for you to see through this source: http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2014/08/28/cable-news-ratings-for-wednesday-august-27-2014/297369/)  So, again, your claims are false due to your willful ignorance and attempt to spread that ignorance around to people who you think won’t check.   Your viewership is not impressive when compared to reality.   You may want to do some research before making a claim.   

I know you would claim to not have read my entire missive, Mr. Keller.   It’s the usual tactic of a TrueChristian, trying to keep their ignorance intact so they do not have to admit when they are wrong.   You claim not to have read it so you don’t have to actually answer questions or address what was said.  What does it say about a faith that is so weak that it can stand up to someone you do you best to call stupid by your insults? You baselessly claim I somehow “need help”.   How do I need help, Mr. Keller?  I certainly do need help in finding evidence for your god and you have claimed to be able to provide it.  You have refused.   

I don’t care who you have supposedly debated.  I can find no record of him debating any of these “top atheists of the day” whomever they may be.  Perhaps you can give me a link to one or two?   It’s awfully easy to claim that you won debates but odd that on one can find them.  Please tell me who these supposedly “confused foolish people” are.  I am guessing you will not be able to because these supposed debates with “top atheists” don’t exists.  

I know you very much hope that people do try to convert in the deathbeds.  I know that many TrueChristians like you have made up completely false stories about atheists who have supposedly done so and have been shown to be intentionally lying about that. The supposed deathbed conversion of Darwin is a good one, as is the usual claim that Einstein was a Christian just like the Christian making the claim.   I also know that according to the bible, no one can do this because it claims that what one has done in one’s life is what matters, it is the book of life that will condemn a person to this nonsense of “hell”.  Per the bible, deathbed conversions are worthless.  I wonder, are you the type of Christian who claims that hell is merely the separation from this god or do you think that this hell is a place of fire and pain?  Again, if you hold either idea or another, I can see that Christians can’t even agree amongst themselves on what the afterlife will be.  This again shows that there is no reason to think your version is any more true than another Christians or another theists, especially when you refuse to provide the evidence you claim you have that yours is the “right” one.  I know that your god, as described by Christians and the bible, does not exist.  Even if it did, it is no more than other bronze age gods that impregnate women, have temper tantrums, be unable to deal with humans if they resist and make high buildings, make wagers with their archenemies, and as a rousing finish, having to let the evil being it imprisoned go because it has to do so, and has no choice but to intentionally allow more humans to be corrupted.   

You may pray for me as much as you’d like, Mr. Keller.   What happens if nothing happens because of those prayers? Is it that your god likes me as I am?  That you are ignored by your god?  That there is no god?  What is your excuse to yourself when your prayers don’t work?   I will be sure to email you again in a month or two to tell you that  nothing has happened.   Now, for a god who promises to answer prayers quickly and positively, the mountain will move immediately not in a million years from erosion,  not to give the son a snake if he asks for a fish, I do hope you’ll wonder why your prayers did nothing.   

And shucks, more personal insults. it’s such a Christian thing to do, it seems.  Again, I offer you a chance to show that you weren’t lying when you made the offer to the head of ISIL.    There is no reason to refuse the same challenge made by a atheists here on the east coast of the US.  I am not justifying myself at all. I am giving you a chance to justify yourself and to show that a self proclaimed prophet of God can call the fires of this god down onto an altar as promised.   

As you have not said I may not publish your emails, something I asked you in my letter which you chose to supposedly not read, I will post them verbatim to my blog.  Thank you for that.  Good night, 

This was all during an evening. About the only good thing about working retail is that I get odd days off and can stay up late.

Now we have  the Liveprayer response to mine.

you are right..you are not a mensa..or a genius..since neither would email someone who is not responding to them..LOL!!..obviously you have to live in a fantasy world to deny the existence of God..or to believe you evolved from a drop of pond scum..so I won’t interrupt your ignorant bliss..and skimming..since I would be equally as ignorant to waste time reading your sad attempts at attention..here you go…first..you are right..you are not a mensa..or a genius..since neither would email someone who is not responding to them..LOL!!..obviously you have to live in a fantasy world to deny the existence of God..or to believe you evolved from a drop of pond scum..so I won’t interrupt your ignorant bliss..and skimming..since I would be equally as ignorant to waste time reading your sad attempts at attention..here you go first..Dr. Keller has 2.5 MILLION opt-in subscribers to the Daily Devotional he has written daily for the past 15 yrs..so 40,000 prayer requests daily is a minor fraction of that…and with a little over 700 of us on board..a manageable daily work load..I realize someone who has never built anything..accomplished anything..has difficulty in understanding how things get done in the real world.all large organizations like Dr. Keller’s send out their correspondence under the signature of the organizations head..unless you think those letters you get from Barry O are really from him..LOL!!..
…and when you are SOMEONE IMPORTANT instead of a typical sad person looking to justify their foolish beliefs by emailing us..let me know..I am sure I can get out office to get you all the documents you need as Dr. Keller has routinely done for major media outlets over the years on #s..his education that anyone can find with a bit of research..as well as easy to find info like his TV ratings…oh..and to help you..Nielson is a horrible service..those in the TV industry knows they are bogus..Dr. Keller probably gets FAR more than they say…Chicago has 10 million people in that DMI…and these jokes on CNN and MSNBC far LESS than they say..but when you are owned by COMCAST who owns the industry..you get the #s they ask for..even as pathetic as they are.. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/fox-news-hits-nearly-2-5-million-viewers-friday-with-extended-coverage-of-debt-talks/
…the rest seems to be your typical whining and blather..sorry if it bores me….and Dr. Keller is a public person..so sadly..people like you can write..post..whatever you like..the funny thing is you and your 12 friends who hate/deny God..love animals but are all for slaughtering innocent babies..are all in on those who CHOOSE to engage in unnatural..unhealthy and perverted sex with people of the same sex..as well as perverting God’s plan for marriage and the family..oh..and like you buy the lie they came from a drop of pond scum and are a genetic accident…can all laugh together are the “ignorant Christians”..”blogs” are for children and adults of like mind who need an echo chamber in which to live..and are harmless since nobody of consequence or any great number read what is written..let me know when you have 2.5 million opt in subscribers to your blog..LOL!
..however..the day you die..and even someone who may not be in the mensa category..but with a brain that works..knows that day is imminent for all..you will get to find out if you were right..at least you can’t whine that nobody told you..and you will have lots of company amongst the equally as “intelligent” that ended up in hell..just don’t blame God sicne YOU made your own choices..give Him credit for allowing you to do that..even if it means your eternal doom…blessings..
ps..suggestion..Dr. Keller is on LIVE Mon-Fri from Mid-2am EDT..call his program..may take a few days to get thru..but you can really talk to your hero..and I am sure he will personally pray for you and help your confusion..blessings!

My “hero” hmmm?  Not exactly.

Dear Mr. Keller, 

Thank you for the further responses which belie your claim that no one is responding to me.  I do appreciate the further personal insults.  Your action are a great lesson to show that being a Christian doesn’t make someone a good human being.   

I do not live in a fantasy world to deny the existence of gods.  You inhabit that same world, Mr. Keller, unless you do believe that other gods exist and are just as real as yours.  The evidence supports the evolutionary theory, which says that life on earth has increased in complexity over billions of years. We have evidence of this happening.  Now, if you can provide evidence to the contrary, fossils of higher complexity beneath those of lower complexity for instance, please provide this.   

Again, I see you cannot tell me where you got your doctorate from.  I do know that you have have some 2 million subscribers to your prayer service.  This is an appeal to popularity and does not indicate your claims are true.  40K request per day is indeed a small fraction of this, but you still can’t show that you actually get these requests.   It is great to see you again try to lie about me, Mr. Keller.  I have built things and accomplished things.  I am sorry you feel the need to intentionally lie about me.  I guess that your belief in your god doesn’t include where it says liars are horrible people damned to hell.  If there is a hell, I will save you a seat.  

No, Mr. Keller, you do not have a “large organization” and no, not all “large organizations” sent out their correspondence only under the signature of their organization’s head.  You see, Mr. Keller, I used to work for a non-profit organization and we never did that, nor did any of the organizations I have encountered, including very big nonprofits like the Heinz Foundation, The William Penn Foundation, The Pew Charitable Trusts, The Ford Foundation, etc. Everyone had their own email address and were responsible for their own correspondence.  You are a liar again.  It is a shame that you find it necessary to lie and to lie so badly.  I do not think that President Obama has sent me personal emails, just looking at the email address indicates that.  I am sorry that you were unaware of how to determine the origin of an email.   You just look at the from space and see where it comes from.   I have also run the Exchange server for the nonprofit I used to work for and know that it is no problem in setting up email addresses for all people in an organization, including volunteers.   

You ask if I am “SOMEONE IMPORTANT”.   I do love to see those caps.  I am an atheist who is asking you to make good on your publically stated challenge.  You have refused.  You also cannot cite one of those “top atheists” you claim you have debated as I have asked.   It is no surprise that you cannot provide any single instance to support your claim that you have debated “top atheists”.   

This is very enjoyable.  I have shown you to be a liar and cited independent statistics.  You have replied, making more false claims about people and organizations you cannot support.  Please do show me how the Nieslen service is “horrible.”  Please show me evidence that the “TV industry” knows that they are bogus.  You see, Mr. Keller, you need evidence, not just a claim on your part.  This is why your claims repeatedly fail so badly. You have nothing to back them up but lies.  I do like that now you couch your claims in terms like “probably”.   You have claimed to have 300K viewers but have again refused to tell me on what network.   Please also show that the stats are wrong as you claim.  Or are you lying again, Mr. Keller, with nothing to back your claims up?  I do like how you’ve cited Fox news stats.  Hilariously, those stats that you claim are wrong, match those that you claim are right.   Here is what the tvbythenumbers site says for the same day as the link you cited: http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2011/07/25/cable-news-ratings-for-friday-july-22-2011/98803/   Yep, both sources claim the same numbers.  So, tell me again who is wrong?   

I am waiting for those documents you have now promised.  Thank you for doing that.  It is appreciated that you have put in writing that you can get the evidence you claim to have.   I do wonder how you define “SOMEONE IMPORTANT”.  Please define that so I know exactly whom to contact in case you try to make up an excuse not to supply me with the evidence you claim to have.  You see, Mr.Keller, this is to prevent you from trying to move the goalposts.  Tell me who is important enough for you to respond to.  Then we will both know where we stand. 

I know my letters do not bore you, Mr. Keller.   You again resort to willful ignorance.  Thank you for being so consistent.   It’s also amusing to see you claim that there is, hmmm, 12 atheists in the world.  Another amusing attempt at lying, Mr. Keller.  I do not hate your god as I do not hate Darth Vader.  Both are fictional characters with no evidence for their existence.  But again, if you do have so, please provide it.  You have refused to do so up to now.   I am still waiting and still offering you the chance to provide the evidence you claim to have.  Do you have it, Mr. Keller?   

You also makek more baseless claim about “unhealthy and perverted sex”.  Can you show this to be the case, Mr. Keller?  I am waiting for evidence of your claims.   I know what the bible says about marriage and family.  We have David who had many god approved concubines.  Is this okay since your god allowed it?  We have Abraham who had sex with a slave?  Is this okay, Mr. Keller?  Is it okay for men to take girls who are virgins and have sexual intercourse with them as your god approves of in the bible?  Again, how many people have you killed becaue your god has commanded it?   Or is it inconvenient to go back to prison?   

Many Christians accept evolutionary theory. I am asking you to show that they are wrong, Mr. Keller.  You can do this by accepting the same challenge you made to the leader of ISIL.  You have refused so far. Why?   

I am glad to see you declare that blogs are for “children”.  It’s another great attempt at a personal insult.  You call a blog an “echo chamber”. How is it that when anyone can post to my blog?  By your claims, your website and ministry is just as much an “echo chamber”.  It seems that you have no idea on how a blog works.  One can allow people to post a comment or not. I have a very liberal posting policy.  You can see it in action if you care to look and have your claims be shown to be more lies.  Here’s a good place to start: https://clubschadenfreude.com/2014/05/26/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-pennsylvanias-anti-equal-marriage-rights-law-struck-down-let-the-whining-commence/   and we got a pastor here: https://clubschadenfreude.com/2013/02/25/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-the-history-channel-and-its-new-mini-series-the-bible/   I have no problem in hearing what other people say, again showing your claims about me to be false, Mr. Keller.

Finally, I get to see more threats from you, Mr. Keller.  There is nothing that declares any day of judgement is imminent.  I’ve been hearing those claims since the early 70s when I got to go see “The Late Great Planet Earth”.  In that, one more self-proclaimed prophet like you declared that the world would end in 1984.   And here we are 30 years later, laughing at that nonsense, and the usual claims by TrueChristians that it will happen “real soon now” with all of the attendant excuses on why their claims failed.  Again, Mr. Keller, Christians can’t agree on when the “end times” are at all.  So again, please give me evidence that I should believe you and not, say, some other Christian who makes  the same claims.  Can you tell me that the Calvinists are wrong with their claims that this god of Christianity doesn’t give anyone a choice?  How do you propose to show that your claim is true? 

Oh my, are we comparing size now?  Nope, I have just a bit over 200 sub to my blog.  So, since Islam is more numerous than your particular brand of Christianity, does that mean it’s more true, Mr. Keller?  Roman Catholicism is certainly more numerous than Bill Keller’s sect, so are they right?  By your own claims, more people means more right.  Or do you wish to recant that bit of nonsense? 

I don’t call into talk shows because I have a hearing deficit.  Now, you’ve claimed your prayers are answered, so how about taking care of that?  Indeed, rather than helping me, or even doing the altar challenge, how about going to your local VA hospital and healing some of the folks there since your bible says all of those who believe in JC can do miracles just like him and even greater ones.  Can you do that, Mr. Keller?  It’s not a selfish request of my own, but to help people who were hurt defending our freedoms.   

Again, thank you for your emails.  They are greatly edifying.

Aren’t they, though? 

 

Part 3 here.