Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – another in a long line of typical exchanges between a Christian and me

I’ve had a TrueChristian(tm) on this website, Jedi of Christ, who has made promises of evidence and then ended up doing nothing more than making threats using bible verses.  He has ended with a post that is typical of a TrueChristian and I thought this would be another good example of how to address the baseless claims of theism.  This is of course a long post.  Read at your own peril 🙂

His post is as such (I cleaned it up a bit for coherence) :

“Hmm… You rather believe a lie, than truth? Thier is much philosophical, and scientific observational evidence, to point to an intelligent designer… The best argument is the fine tuning of the world, of the stars and the logicality of life, which logically can only exist from a logical source… Random chance (string theory) and a mass of nothing cannot create the logical fine tuning of existence. To say thier is no evidence for thesim is rather oblivious on your part and makes me question your sincerity for finding truth. If you truly are a person after the 4 fundamental questions, why am I here? What is my purpose? Who am I? Where am I going? You won’t leave any stone unturned.
Science though is not the truth, though it points to a Creator. Any honest scientist would tell you that. Here is an example DNA, we know it is information and that it is a language of it self, it is impossible for information and language to be in any place without logically knowing some one put it there.
You know a human being writes this message because one thier is no other race on earth that does this, and because what I am sharing is understandable to you… But have you asked your self? How can I understand the words on this message the information it entails… You see the word apple and you know it is not nothing, there is information from the word. That word… Such can only come from a logical source.
We need the language to read the information and the information to read the language. And such can only come from an intelligence
Science can never prove GOD, but science truly if its procedure is honest points, to a Creator.
The Bible has scientifical facts in it dating from over 3000 years. Mr Lister the inventor of listeren was under much mockery, my his pairs when he decided to follow what the Bible says about hygien… When he implemted it in his work ethics. But when the scoffers saw that Lister clinical death rates were significantly less than thier own the whole science community implemented his hygien procedures. The medical community literally dates before and after Lister.
The founders of modern science, Kepla, Galileo, Newton and more were all theist, they focused on thier educational field because they knew the Universe was logical and their was a designer the GOD of the Bible.
They are scientist that are Christian… The naturallitic philosophy which is the belief all atheist whole and thus thier religious beliefs in a none Creator but rather that nature is Supreme and made it self, is very unswaying knowing the basic law of cause and effect… Nature is not an intelligence so it can’t make intelligence. Nature is an effect from a cause and I believe you know, it is very much recognized that the Universe had a beginning.
Now I hear people say GOD He is the god of the gaps, and I believe science has done great things to get rid of superstition in Greece zeus was the god of lightning… That is how the Greeks other than Socrates and I believe other Greek philosopher s that oppose the pagan worship of this days. Rationalize how those things happen… Of course now we know it had to do with electrons and protons etc. And that the wind has weight,which interestingly the Bible talks about over 3000. Years ago.
The major difference between those god  Of the gaps, and the Christian theistic GOD who is Infinite and eternal is that He made all things… Now the Bible has scientifically facts in it and Prophecy which wasn’t put in after, dead sea scroll is just one evidence how it wasn’t. The whole source of the Bible is GOD making contact with us, giving us these 4 fundamental questions. If. Some one bakes bread we can see that they did, but we cant know why they bake the bread unless they tell us. GOD is giving us that why, through His written word. GOD isn’t hiding Himself in fact He made Himself known… And to have a Bible in this time with all the cannonize scripture is amazing, because if people know just a little history of the Bible, they will know it wasn’t so easily accessible. And Prophecy speaks of this. The GOD of the Bible isn’t a created god of stone or wood, or imagination. He is Spirit and Eternal and Infinite and we know they must be an infinite they are finite beings and a created universe they must be an infinite or else nothing here could have existed to begin with. And logically thier can only be one Infinite.
John Lennox, Ravi Zachrisas, Creation ministry International are excellent apologetic source for Christianity.
I’ve heard of the athiest side of things, ultimalty… It’s not what a man thinks we should follow, it is what is true. I know GOD is real the Bible has been under much challenge and has come out victorious every time. I will bet my life on the Bible… It is the chief of all studies the difference between everladting life with the CREATOR of all things who is Infinite in wisdom, Holiness, and live in a world made new where thier is no more death and crying, sins. A world of peace and true love for one an other self sacrificing love, humility of heart… And kindness. I will die for that.
The Bible is fundamentally different than all religions but at best superficially similar. People say if thier is a GOD why does He allow all this death and pain and evil? All I can say, is that at the center of the Bible is a cross… Where GOD Himself came into this world of darkness and took part in our suffering.
Jesus Christ did exist many historians even outside the Bible have documented that. YouTube has a video on those historians.
The only way to know the pass is my historical science which is by documented historical facts, by historians. And we have one trustworthy historian who gave us through His written Word that He made the earth and everything in it.
That’s it for me, I won’t be messaging again.I know GOD is real but for you, if GOD is real… You know thier is no excuse for not seeking after His will and knowing what He wants of you and obeying what He wants… Because for you, If GOD is real then as Creator and Savior He has the right to commandments what He wants of His creations. I hope you don read this and end here… I hope you truly search for God, and If you do GOD promises you will find Him.”

 This how I addressed his claims. Baseless information can be written in a small amount of space; evidence does make for a long post.  I’ve also added links to the things the reader might want more information on.

No, there is not “much philosophical and scientific observation evidence” for your god or any god. I am amused that you default to intelligent designer and not your specific god, which would seem to indicate that you also know that your claims aren’t supportable that there is a Christian god and a magical messiah.

The fact that you think that “fine tuning” is the best evidence for a designer does show how lacking the evidence is. Considering that the world is largely uninhabitable by humanity, not to mention the rest of the universe, there is no reason to think that humans are favored by any omnipotent magical being at all. I suppose we could draw the conclusion your god is incompetent for making such vast stretches of universe utterly inimical to humans.

As many ignorant Christians do, you assume that science says that the universe is random. It is anything but (at least on the macroscale and perhaps on the quantum scale too); humans have figured out much of why and how the universe works and surprise, no god has yet been shown to exist or to be needed. This universe is not some Seussian construct where anything can happen. String theory is not “random chance” either. Ignorant theists have a habit of attacking things that they have no knowledge of at all, not even enough to make a cogent argument against those things. However, Jedi, you can show that I am wrong by discussing string theory and what it really is. Can you do so or are you just one more ignorant Christian who can only retain his faith as long as he remains willfully ignorant about everything that shows his god doesn’t exist?

Again, I’m waiting for your evidence for your god, Jedi. Not some vague “force (absolute)”, but the god you worship. You, like so many modern Christians, want to claim a personal god that does miracles and is concerned personally about you, but when it comes down to it, you have no evidence for this god and you run to some vague “force” and insist it exists with the same lack of evidence for the bible god.

I do want to find the truth and I don’t need a god to answer the questions about why I’m here, what is my purpose, who am I and where I am going. I’m here because of physics and chemistry, my purpose is what I choose it to be, I am a human being much more decent and humane than a god you’ve created in your image, and I am going to die eventually and return my constituent elements back to the universe. I don’t need a magic god to give meaning to my life, no more than I need Tezcatlipoca, Amaterasu or Darth Vader to give meaning to my life. Poor Jedi, you lie about me to make believe that only those who are seeking the truth with agree with you and your nonsense, just like so many other Christians who don’t even agree with you.

I’ve turned over many stones and unsurprisingly, neither your god nor any god is under these rocks. I know your claims are lies so those stones are flipped over and kicked to the side. Still no evidence for any of the essential events in the bible. So much for your claims of “much philosophical and scientific observational evidence.”

Science does not point to a “creator” but again, thanks for scuttling to a vague power and abandoning your god, Jedi. Thanks again for lying about how any “honest scientist” would agree with you. No, they would not, Jedi. Scientists have not found evidence for a “creator”, your vague force or your existential god with feet and jealousy. DNA is not evidence for either. It is not a language, it is a pattern of molecules that result in what we know as life. It is not impossible at all for patterns to be created from forces with no consciousness at all. Consider crystals, no little angels assembling them, just the regular laws of physics and chemistry.

It always makes me laugh when someone like you claims that one has to have faith to be a Christian but runs around trying to find anything to support their failing faith, even if they have to lie about it. You do a lovely job in showing that Christianity is a failure.

I know a human being writes this message. We’re a product of chemistry and physics and humans invented language because we evolved to be intelligent Now, if you claim a god wrote this message, you need to show the god. Can you, Jedi? Can you show that nothing else could have? Not another god, not just the laws of physics and chemistry that may simple be and have existed forever? I’m still waiting.

You keep claiming a “logical source”. Show how your god is logical. And again, I’m indicating your god that you worship, not some vague force you’ve retreated to.

Again, Jedi, nice to see you lie and try to claim that the only honest people are those who agree with you. That is such a wonderful fail. Science should be able to provide evidence for a god if a god exists, we should be able to find evidence for the essential events of the bible. Surprise! None found at all.

No, the bible does not have scientific facts in it, no more than any other myth-filled “holy” book from any other culture. There is nothing in the bible about germ theory, so again you are lying. There is nothing that says wash your hands before and after touching a sick person or a wound. What it says (all sorts of idiocy in Leviticus) is that one has to kill an animal and sacrifice it to become “clean” again, which certainly doesn’t work for taking care of bacteria or viruses. The bible says that one is “unclean” if one ejaculates semen, and equates this with having a skin disease, which again shows that your supposedly “scientific” book has not one clue about what goes on with bacteria and viruses, superstitious nonsense insisting that time of day is what is important, not washing at all. We also have your bible saying don’t shit on the ground, not because it can spread disease, but because your god might step in it, a pretty funny idea for a supposedly omniscient being, a being that supposedly knows everything but can’t avoid a piece of poop on the ground. Then in the NT, we have JC saying that washing is meaningless in Mark 7, which again shows that your bible is not teaching anything scientific at all. What does it say about a Christian and the religion when he repeatedly depends on lies that can be exposed to keep his faith in his bible, Jedi?

We also have your idiot god saying that one can cure leprosy with pigeon blood. Now, if this bible of yours is so scientific, why doesn’t that work at all, Jedi? Why do doctors use antibiotics rather than a dead bird? We have some actual effective medicines from ancient Chinese herbal medicine, but strangely enough the Israelites came up with nothing in medicine and indeed in no other science, despite supposedly having the “wisest man in the world” and a magical god.

You are quite correct, Kepler (not Kepla, yet more evidence you have no idea what you are attacking), Galileo and Newton were theists, Christians in fact. They were various kinds of Christians and were attacked by their fellow Christians who were sure that they were wrong. Again, reality shows a TrueChristian™ like you to again be a liar when you try to present Christianity as the basis of science. Galileo was a Roman Catholic, Kepler was a Protestant and refused to become a Catholic and suffered for it. This is an excellent demonstration that Christianity can’t even agree and again, attacked anything it that didn’t agree with it, include sects of itself. Newton disagreed with the sects of both Kepler and Galileo and has his own version, that said the Trinity was nonsense, worshipping Jesus Christ was pure idolatry and had failed calculations of the end of the world. He also said that the universe was flawed and made this way by his god, which had to continually interfere because of the instabilities in the systems. This all of course was in a time where not being a Christian would get you murdered by Christians. So, Jedi, which of these gentlemen was a heretic and which was a TrueChristian™? They certainly don’t agree with your claims, so how can you call them Christian?

You don’t seem to like the idea that physics and chemistry may have always existed and that the universe can come into being without your god. So, please do explain to us why the laws of physics can’t have existed always and how your god somehow can. As always, TrueChristians want to have special pleading accepted for their god but it never dawns on them that those same parameters can be placed on the laws of the universe that they are so afraid of. There is nothing that says non-intelligence can’t give rise to intelligence. You again try to make baseless claims to support your nonsense. Yep, the universe appears to have a beginning but there very well may be a universe that it came from, or it came from nothing, as modern physics seems to indicate. If things have to have causation, then again, from whence did your god come? If you want to claim its always been there, then there is no reason that some kind of universe has always been there.

But let’s say intelligence is needed for intelligence. How does one define intelligence, especially perfect intelligence? Would such an intelligence screw up by making human bodies badly designed, for example placing the esophagus right beside the trachea so hundreds of people choke to death every year? Would an magic intelligence make it so humans can die from too much exposure to our main source of illumination? Would a magic intelligence make humans so that our spines aren’t the best for walking upright and millions of people are in agony from such poor design? Why would such a magic intelligence make worms that kill animals and people? Let me guess, you’ll blame the “fall” which then begs the question, why is your god such a petty little thing that it has to visit punishment for humans on all animals?

I do thank you for mentioning lightning. Why is it that churches have lightning rods or surge protectors, Jedi? Seems that someone is depending on science and not trusting in some god, the same science that shows that the claims of the bible are wrong. Your god was also claimed to be a storm god, appearing in clouds and on mountains just like Zeus. Christians claimed that lightning was its wrath. Not surprising at all since Zeus and the Christian god were both invented by humans. Socrates was not an atheist, nor was he a Christian, so he certainly seems to have been a worshipper of the Greek pantheon, accepting the words of the Oracle of Delphi, which was a major center of the worship of the god Apollo. Socrates invokes Hera in Plato’s Apology (section 24 and onward). And in the Apology, Socrates is accused of worshipping “new spiritual beings”. Since this was circa 425 BCE, it certainly wasn’t the gods of the Jews or the Christians that were being referenced to here. Even Anaxagoras didn’t’ deny the gods but simply said that the sun and moon weren’t the gods themselves. You are of course welcome to cite these supposed “other” Greek philosophers that supposedly agree with you.

The wind has weight? No, the wind has force, and amusingly enough, some bible interpreters have changed the words to reflect reality and not the ignorance of ancient agrarians who believed in demons and gods, abandoning what the bible says in its earliest versions. Air has weight, as we know from the gas experiments by people like Scheele and Priestly. The book of Job has some lovely claims to again show that the bible does not accurately represent the world. It says that lapis lazuli has gold in it. It doesn’t, that’s fool’s gold, aka pyrite, iron sulfide, something any metallurgist several thousand years ago would know. Of course, some versions say sapphires, which also don’t’ have gold dust in them. We have this god claiming to have “storehouses” of snow and hail, which is rather silly since those come from clouds where they are formed and then dropped. We also have this god claiming that it sets limits to where water can go, but shucks, tsunamis seem to ignore this god with abandon. And Job is one of the best places to see where ancient Israelites thought the earth was flat and that one could grasp its edges and is flat like clay beneath a seal. We also have that the “behemoth” is the first of this god’s works, which makes one wonder where humans fit in. And can’t forget the “leviathan” a fire-breathing dragon. Golly, of course, the bible is scientific. For real and honest, you know.

Your god is indeed a god of the gaps since all of the nonsense of the bible has been shown to be false and all you have is a god that is getting vaguer and vaguer. There have been other gods just like your god, Jedi. Aten, the Great Spirit, etc. Your willful ignorance again does you no good. Sicne there are no scientific facts in the bible as demonstrated above, and your god is not unique in the claims about it, there is no major differences at all as you again falsely claim.

Christians claim that the bible is their god making contact, but again no evidence of this at all, for the contact or that this god exists at all. There is no evidence that the prophecies claimed to be in the bible are prophecies at all. We have vague words that are claimed to “really mean” nonsense later. For instance, prophecies in the OT, are claimed to come true in the NT, but when one actually reads them, one sees that they are entirely taken out of context, mistranslated, etc. We also have not one that says clearly when and what will happen and Jews and Christians reinterpret them everytime the time and supposed occurrence fails to occur, to try to make them fit some other event and time.

Since Christians can’t agree on who is telling them what, there is no reason to believe anyone has made any “bread” or that any Christian, or any theist, knows why it did so. You claim that your version is correct and have no evidence for this. Another Christian claims their version is correct, it disagrees with yours and again, no evidence to support it. Another theist claims that their version is correct and again, no evidence. No god, no evidence that any version is correct at all, and plenty of evidence that the claims of the religions never occurred and something else entirely did.

Again, your claims of uniqueness for your religion fail, Jedi. You don’t believe in other religions for the same reasons I don’t believe in yours. Again, you try to lie about the integrity and history of the bible. There still is no agreement on what should “really” be in the bible. Christian sects have different bible, insist that different parts are literal and metaphor, showing that there is no reason to believe any of you.

Nope, we do not know at all that there must be an “infinite” magical being aka your god that you are again trying to make vaguer and vaguer. There can be an infinity, but again that’s not your god at all is it, Jedi? And there can be more than one infinity, infinities are weird like that. Nice try with the ontological argument, but I can always imagine a god much better than yours, but that means having to dispose of the nonsense in the bible, including magic Jesus. Are you willing to do that, Jedi? Your god is such a petty little thing, with being jealous, being unable to do anything at all, promises unkept, and that thing at the end where your god has to release Satan again (Revelation 20-21(actually 19-21, my mistake). My god doesn’t have to do that at all, and no need to corrupt more faithful believers.

Oh my, it’s great to see you mention Ravi Zacharias. Poor fellow, doesn’t even understand basic physics either; his claims about the laws of thermodynamics are just priceless in demonstrating pure willful ignorance. Your other ones are also Christians who present lies without any evidence, so no surprise that you do the same thing. I do love how the Christians at Answers in Genesis are sure that John Lennox is entirely wrong but again neither side has any evidence for its nonsense. Just which TrueChristian™ shall we believe?

You also don’t know that your god is real or that the bible is accurate; you believe it, just like a child believes in Santa Claus. You have evidence for neither god nor accuracy, nothing more than what any theist has, and again, you disbelieve their claims that are exactly like yours. It is a sad lie when you claim that the bible has been challenged and has come out victorious everytime. No evidence for the two genesis stories, the flood, the exodus, the destruction of Tyre, the fabulous palaces and temples, the battles of hundreds of thousands of men, the darkening of the sun/major earthquake/walking dead of the cruxifiction story, any of the miracles, etc.

It’s easy to say your bet your life when you have nothing to lose. You don’t follow your bible when it comes to its claims of how to cure disease, you use modern medicine just like me. You ignore the laws it claims are the only way to be accepted by your god, since it sure seems like heaven and earth are still right here. You are a hypocrite. Your bible condemns anyone who disagrees with it and calls for their eternal torture. That isn’t love, that is control. As usual, you are just like every other TrueChristian who desperately needs everyone to agree with them for if they don’t’, then they should be damned.

No the bible is not fundamentally different. It has no evidence for its claims at all, just like the Qu’ran et al.

Nice excuse for your god. If one is to believe the bible, this god didn’t’ come “into” this “world of darkness”, it created it with intent. Or isn’t your god the creator anymore and isn’t omniscient anymore? In your bible, we have a god who intentionally, or stupidly, allowed its archenemy in with two innocents, and then took a tantrum when they were deceived by a being almost as powerful as this god. Then we had this god vanish for a time and then get angry again when no one cared about it and took another tantrum and caused a flood that killed everyone except a drunkard and his family in a magical boat. Rather than make the supposedly “evil” humans just vanish, this god does pointless collateral damage. Then we get this god getting around to remember his “chosen” people were enslaved (no evidence of this at all) and freeing them and giving laws that he expected that they should be able to follow. His omniscience fails and then after thousands of years depending on this law, this god supposedly gets the idea that what it “really” needed to do is sacrifice itself to itself for a “fall” it could have prevented. Again, quite easy to postulate a far greater and perfect god than yours. So, all of the “suffering” was caused by this god in the first place, if one believes the bible, that is.

You again rely on ignorance when you claim that “many historians” documented that Jesus Christ existed. That is not true in the least. At best, some historians postulate an itinerate rabbi that may have served as the nucleus for the Jesus legend. That isn’t your Jesus Christ at all, is it, Jedi? Your Jesus is the magical son of God and there is not one scrap of evidence for *that* at all. But as usual, show us these “many historians”. Funny how you just claim “youtue has a video on them” but you can’t actually cite it. Why is that, Jedi? Are you praying that someone believes you and doesn’t ask? Show us this video.

We have no trustworthy “historian” in the form of your god since, again, the claims supposedly by it and about it are demonstrably false. Still waiting for evidence, Jedi. We have one book that even Christians can’t agree on what it means and what parts should be considered as literal and what should be considered as metaphor. If your basis for believing something is that an author said it was true, that means that the Qu’ran is true, the Hunt for Red October is true, the Illuminati Trilogy is true, Scientology is true.   Good ol’ Xenu says it’s true so it’s must be true.

It matters little if you respond or not. I’m quite sure that you won’t actually support your baseless claims as usual. You are a typical coward, hoping that people believe you and won’t question your lies, but when asked for evidence, you run away.

Nice attempt at Pascal’s Wager. Now, what will happen if you are wrong, my dear Jedi? If there are other gods,you’ve mightily pissed them off. If there is no god, you’ve wasted your life in fearing something that never existed. If your god exists as your bible and you define it, I happily would not seek its will because it is a vile creature. From your own words, you seem only to worship it because you are terrified of it, that might makes right is all you are concerned with. How sad that your god is no more than a pitiful dictator that gets cranky if it doesn’t get its way. My version of god is so much better than that. Again, tell us again what this god wants, Jedi, and we can see again just how Christians disagree on this over and over again.

 

 

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12 responses to “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – another in a long line of typical exchanges between a Christian and me

  1. No, there is not “much philosophical and scientific observation evidence” for your god or any god

    Bite your tongue! The evidence, when carried to its natural ends, points to malevolence 😉

    Brilliant, as usual, Club. You have the patience of a saint, the wit of Wilde, and the intellect of Mill, Sartre, Epicurus and Russell all rolled together.

  2. This post illustrates in pyrotechnicolor the nanometer thin shallowness with which the atheist perceives reality.

    Yes, there are many patterns in nature. The 4 year old tot can understand that.

    But the point is not patterns. The point is information.

    DNA contains information, coherent, almost infinitely complex information.

    And it is information, not patterns that indicate intelligence.

    Inherent in information is design and purpose.

    And it is design and purpose which prove the existence of intelligence.

    It is the intelligence inherent in biological information that proves that everything just didn’t happen all by itself, and that everything, in fact, was created by God.

    • Still waiting for your evidence, SOM. DNA does have information, again no need for an intelligence to put it there. But one thing we do need to establish is what is “information”. Can you tell us, SOM? Is there information in a random system? Can a non-intelligent entity convey information? What is the difference between “intelligent” and “non-intelligent”? We do need to know how you are defining these words.

      But let’s say that an intelligence is needed. Please do show that it is your god, the one described in the bible and worshipped by TrueChristians(tm) like you. We need to see evidence that this god exists and that the essential events in the bible happened. Where is your evidence, SOM? Or are you following Jedi in the vague nonsense that many modern Christians run to when their god can’t be found under any rock?

      You also might want to explain how your god so screwed up DNA that it often fails. How does that work, a supposed “perfect” being creating something that fails and causes much misery and suffering?

    • Shallowness. You mean seeing what is to where the end of the flashlight reaches, not making up crap that has never been seen before, crap that has no evidence for it and is in defiance with everything known. Yeah not assuming that there are 5th dimentional pink elephants that speak only Mandarin Chinese in a Irish accent are there just beyond where our flashlight can see. Yup that kind of shallow.

  3. FIne Tuning. Um 99.99999999 percent of the universe is inhospitable to life. If you had a beverage that was so poisonous that it killed 99.99999999 percent of people who drank it….I wouldn’t consider it “fine tuned” so much as a fraction of people amazingly resilient. Particularly if they were betting against a Sicilian when life is on the line.

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