Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Christian “Science” and the art of the con

Well, this week, the Christian Scientists here in Harrisburg mailed out fliers about how they were going to have a healing talk down at their church, by Josh Niles (a supposed veteran which make me wonder why the local VA hospital isn’t empty).   There are few things I find more disgusting than theists making baseless claims on how they can heal people when hospitals are full, especially veterans’ hospitals and children’s hospitals.  The deceit that is involved is amazing for a religion that supposedly cares about the truth.

I shot them an email and asked for evidence of this healing, and why they can’t heal anyone who actually has been hurt.   They unsurprisingly directed me to the party line, and offered no reason why they haven’t healed amputees, people with documented cancers, etc.  The claim was “Christ Jesus had a remarkable healing record and Christian Science has an excellent record too.” Directly me at this “excellent record.” I pointed out that they had no evidence, and I received this in reply “You may recall that there was a multitude of sick people at the Pool of Bethesda and only one was healed by Jesus. That man was receptive to what Jesus said to him and was obedient and was healed.   The rest were “waiting for the moving of the waters”, a material approach of hope for healing and then only for some that made it to the pool.” The problem with this is that JC only talked to one fellow at the pool, who was just like the others. Why not speak to the others and heal them? And why doesn’t JC say “hey man, illness is an illusion, and only prayer in this certain way will heal you”, like the CS leader Mary Baker Eddy?

Well, how about we look at that “excellent record”?   As a background, Christian Science, aka the Church of Christ, Scientist and The First Church of Christ, Scientist,  is a sect of Christianity invented by various people and Mary Baker Eddy is the most famous of them.  She claimed that sickness is an “illusion”, is the result of thinking “wrongly” (aka blame the victim) and can be cured by prayer alone.   They also think that only their claimed spiritual world is real and that reality, this place that we inhabit is illusion.  I do have a lovely ladle of molten steel they might take a dip in if they are sure of this.  We also have the claim that CS is getting back to the “real” Christianity, a claim that many many sects make.

Incidentally, a word to advice to Christians (and other theists) who are reading this, ready to insist that CS isn’t “really” Christianity: think about how your sect compares with this one and how all of you have no evidence for your claims.  However, I will admit that Christian Science is only slightly less silly and bizarre than Scientology in my estimation ( just read about malicious animal magnetism, which is hard to distinguish from spiritual warfare, imprecatory prayer and thetans).

What is amusing about this is that the religion doesn’t say you can’t use modern medicine, but they claim that their prayers are better than it.  So, it isnt’ surprising that these are the stereotypical Christians who praise their god when it was the hard work of medical professionals who actually helped them.   Of course, they’ve managed to also murder children and kill themselves with this ignorance.  One might counter my claim of murder with claims that these people don’t know what they are doing, however, if their religion allows going to medical professionals, then they know that they have an alternative and one that works.  Either that, or they are truly delusional (delusion: a belief that is: certainty (held with absolute conviction), incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary),impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre, or patently untrue)  and should be considered as mentally ill as the next person who has delusions.  You’ll note that the common definition of a delusion has religion or culture as an out for such beliefs, which doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, other than to protect the sensibilities of those particular beliefs.

So, we have a religion that claims that they can heal, much like how evangelical Christian preachers who claim they can heal, practioners of other religion and practioners of various types of spiritual or energy healing.  We also have record of MBE making claim that she was not healed in order to attempt to seek damages from the city.

In 1898, MBE made this claim “”After my discovery of Christian Science, I healed consumption in the last stages, a case which the M.D.’s, by verdict of the stethoscope and the schools, had declared incurable, because the lungs were mostly consumed. I healed malignant diphtheria and carious bones that could be dented by the finger, saving the limbs when the surgeon’s instruments were lying on the table ready for their amputation. I have healed at one visit a cancer that had eaten the flesh of the neck and exposed the jugular vein so that it stood out like a cord. I have physically restored sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, speech to the dumb, and have made the lame walk.” – New York Sun, December 16, 1898

That’s quite a claim.  No evidence for it at all, but quite a claim. Then we have her make this claim “Until the advancing age admits the efficacy and supremacy of Mind, it is better for Christian Scientists to leave surgery and the adjustment of broken bones and dislocations to the fingers of a surgeon, while the mental healer confines himself chiefly to mental reconstruction and to the prevention of inflammation. Christian Science is always the most skilful surgeon, but surgery is the branch of its healing which will be last acknowledged. However, it is but just to say that the author has already in her possession well-authenticated records of the cure, by herself and her students through mental surgery alone, of broken bones, dislocated joints, and spinal vertebræ” – Eddy, Science and Health.  Pretty damn convenient, isn’t it?   And so very reminiscent of a con artist’s classic claim that the “real magic” will be taught last, after they’ve squeezed the money from the mark.  She also blamed the aforementioned “malicious animal magnetism” for her healing failing, and when her healing failed to cure contagious diseases, well, it was the thing to take the vaccine and pray about later.

We also have the Canadian Journal of Medicine and Surgery (circa 1899, starting on page 236)giving many quotes from Ms. Eddy, and their considered opinion of her nonsense (not that medicine was that much more coherent at the time). “Ignorance of hygiene is a blessing.”   is only one of the choice bits of ignorance Christian Science advances.

The folks at the local CS church gave me links to their publications and claimed that this was evidence of their “excellent record” of healing.  All of the stories are anecdotes.  They “verify” these by the following : “Include names, telephone numbers, and e-mail (or post office) addresses of three people who would be willing to verify your testimony. Verifiers should be people who know you well and have either witnessed the healing or can vouch for your integrity in sharing it.”

Hmmm, almost as good as what the Catholic Church does.  Now, I wonder, do Catholics and Christian Scientists agree that each other’s healings have happened or do they question them for the same reasons that I do: that there is no evidence at all for them?  One can see the testimonials at the CS website and in the Science and Health book by Eddy. It is most curious that no one is identifiable and that no evidence is given to corroborate such miraculous claims. Now, compare this to the claims of healing by a certain Indian fellow, Mohan Joshi.  Update: I do have a name, Margaret McCain La Grange, and that hallelujah, a “black spot” was miraculously removed.  Pish and tosh about the people who have had limbs blown off by IEDs, when Ms La Grange had a “spot” removed.

The CS did claim to have done an “empirical” study on their healing methods and released this paper: “An Empirical Analysis of Medical Evidence in Christian Science Testimonies of Healing, 1969-1988”  Unsurprisingly, the research was at best….questionable. There are no medical records offered as evidence and claims of medical follow up to confirm the healings are no where to be found. In addition to this, there was no data on how many healings failed to compare with the claims of success.  This, as my alert readers know, is simply confirmation bias written as a paper.  This review of the paper underlines this quite well.   One example is that the CS claimed 5 healings of pneumonia over the period of  20 years.  There is no information on how many healings failed, which would at least give a total population that was supposedly treated by the CS method.   Considering that UNICEF has that 920,000 children died from pneumonia in 2015, one can be relatively comfortable that quite a few more died in that 20 years before better treatments.  And we have 5 supposedly healed out of what a generous guess would be 18.4 million?  And still no evidence that it even occurred.  The report also points out that they mentioned no successes in known fatal diseases and plenty of dead children to show that the healing fails. ( it is no small irony that MBE died of pneumonia herself)

These believers are at best simply willfully ignorant and selfish, at worst con artists who make their money making false claims and getting people dead.  That nice lady at the Christian Science Reading Room is pedaling trash.

Addendum:

I asked my correspondent at the local CS church this in response to his claim here “Perhaps you or a loved one is seeking healing.   You may be interested to know that Christian Science healing is written down in “Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures” by Mary Baker Eddy and is available in bookstores and online, and will be available at the lecture along with the Bible.”:

Now, I have no one who needs healing, but I will ask you this: heal Charlie Gard, the dying child in England. I will hope that I am greeted by the wonderful news that he is happy and healthy and his parents are not grieving. I’m not paying you money to do so, but if you are decent human being, you’ll do this anyway.

Here’s betting a thousand quatloos that nothing will come of this.

Addendum: 7/27/2017  This was the pathetic response from my CS correspondent to my above request ““Wow.Best wishes for peace, harmony, and happiness. C Palenz”

What a complete failure.

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36 responses to “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Christian “Science” and the art of the con

  1. “By an act of will we can alter facts!”

    This belief seems to be the unspoken rallying cry not just of religious wingnuts but a growing sentiment throughout the Left about all kinds of issues.

    It is worrisome.

  2. Why wasn’t Mary Baker able to will herself to lengthen her stay here on earth? It should be easy, right?
    That Jesus, who Christians claim is god, could only heal one person when he didn’t require any material resources but words points to a failure in proportions that I don’t want to imagine.

    • one does have to wonder about that. She evidently couldn’t heal herself, couldn’t pay the fee to be healed by one of her “students” or they didn’t want to heal her.

      or it was simply bullshit all the way down.

      • My mother in law – a die-hard atheist – is currently 101, living at home, and remains brighter than most, including me. Maybe she has a closet CS ‘practitioner’ keeping her going from afar.

      • That generation is amazing, ain’t it? My dad turned 99 this summer – he was born at the end of World War I – born before women had the right to vote, born before “talking pictures” and television and man landed on the moon. He and Mom celebrated and cried with joy when they saw the first African-American become President – they never thought they’d live long enough to see that. I’m really hoping Dad will live long enough to see our current President leave office. But I digress…

        Anyway. I brought up Eddy’s age in response to someone who seemed to think she should have lived forever or something. My own feeling about longevity is… I’ve lived almost long enough to be considered an “old fart” now… long life is not my goal. I want a life that means something – I want to do what I can to leave this place better than when I arrived, and I look for opportunities to do that. I helped build a home for Habitat for Humanity; I teach in an alternative high school (non-religious) that serves a mostly minority population (7/8 of our students are Latino); I contribute to the ACLU, Southern Poverty and Law Center, World Wildlife Fund, Doctors Without Borders, and etc.; I went as a delegate for Obama at the 2012 State Convention; I’ve written and spoken out against bigotry towards gays, racial and ethnic minorities, atheists, and… well, yesterday I tried to address some bigotry towards my own way of life – but that one did not go over so well. 🙂

      • Nice try to ignore the point made that your nonsense about Eddy living to “almost”” 90 had something to do with CS was silly since plenty of non-CS people live that old and older. Now, you invent the excuse that you aren’t “really” interested in a long life, even though this doesn’t track well with what you claimed before the flaw in your reasoning was pointed out. Again, we get to see your excuses for when your nonsense doesn’t work.

        Plenty of us do exactly like you do, contributing to charities, helping the poor, etc. We’ve also written and spoke about bigotry against ourselves, race, LGBTQ, etc. Again, you are no better than us.

        However, You are indeed pathetic when you claim that anyone here is a bigot, when all you are whining about is that people hold you accountable for your baseless claims and your failed religion which claims healing that doesn’t happen. I don’t accept lies from anyone, be it a female CS practitioner or a Nazi. Is it bigotry to point out that your religion has killed quite a few people, Karen? You make a promise and you can’t follow through with fulfilling that promise. You are no better than Benny Hinn with his begging for money so he can keep on “healing”, just like any charlatan. I don’t believe him and I don’t believe you or the same reason. It isn’t bigotry to stand against baseless nonsense. Many Christians will claim “but it isn’t hurting anyone” but we know that in the CS case, it has.

        Now, we are expecting you to support your claims with evidence and explain why CS claims of healing fail. Rather than making false claims of bigotry, why not show us why we should believe you? You were the one who came here with claims that you insist are true. The burden is upon you to show that they are. One way you could do this is have every kid in my local children’s hospital, Penn State Health Children’s Hospital or all of the wounded vets in my local VA hospital healed. You don’t even have to be near by for it to work per your religion and considering what Eddy claimed possible, it should be no problem at all.

        Let’s remind you and everyone else what Mary Baker Eddy claimed her method would cure ““”After my discovery of Christian Science, I healed consumption in the last stages, a case which the M.D.’s, by verdict of the stethoscope and the schools, had declared incurable, because the lungs were mostly consumed. I healed malignant diphtheria and carious bones that could be dented by the finger, saving the limbs when the surgeon’s instruments were lying on the table ready for their amputation. I have healed at one visit a cancer that had eaten the flesh of the neck and exposed the jugular vein so that it stood out like a cord. I have physically restored sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, speech to the dumb, and have made the lame walk.” – New York Sun, December 16, 1898”

      • i am hoping you can answer questions honestly put to you, Karen and explain why you are trying to call anyone who does not agree with your claims which you present no evidence for, bigots. If you cannot, there is little reason to consider your claims true. You seem to be like so many other claimants to Christianity, willing to bear false witness against others and running away when the hard questions start. You should read some of the claims in comments here by a person calling him/herself “scientific Christian” and reflect on why their claims and yours are both unbelievable.

        My local Christian science church sent out another flyer to try to convince others that their claims are true. It’s a shame that Ms. Kari Mashos, yet one more pay for pray practioner can’t use her magic powers at my local VA hospital or children’s hospital. There at also hospices around. Surely Ms. Mashos can do something for them. But alas, maybe they just don’t pay enough or pray the “right” way.

      • You asked for experiences of healing, and I gave you some. It’s your choice, of course, whether you choose to believe these experiences or not. But I think you would agree with me that when someone chooses not to believe what you’re sharing with them, it’s kind of silly to waste your time in continual dialogue with that person, right? It’s like banging your head against a wall. Not helpful to the other person, and certainly not helpful to yourself. Regarding hospice care – I actually provided hospice care to Mom in my home – I administered the drugs and so forth. I was really glad I was able to do that for her, and she was able to pass on in my home, rather than some institution full of strangers. Anyway. Here’s a blog post that might help you better understand where I’m coming from in regards to CS healing and traditional medical care – if you’re genuinely interested: https://madcapchristianscientist.com/2014/03/22/radical-reliance-on-truth/

      • Karen,

        If anything, I asked for evidence for the claims made by you and other Christian Scientists, not anecdotes aka “experiences” or baseless opinions. It’s no surprise that you have tried to misrepresent what I have said. You have again failed to produce any evidence that CS healing claims are true and that this method claimed by you and Ms. Eddy works. You’ve also evidently ignored my replies to you since you still can’t figure out that “Club Schadenfreude” is the name of the blog, not me.

        You have ignored my questions and requests, so again there is still no reason to believe your claims, Karen. Like my local CS church which is having yet one practitioner come in, there is no evidence to be seen, but a lot of baseless nonsense to be heard.

        Your religion’s leader made claims like this “After my discovery of Christian Science, I healed consumption in the last stages, a case which the M.D.’s, by verdict of the stethoscope and the schools, had declared incurable, because the lungs were mostly consumed. I healed malignant diphtheria and carious bones that could be dented by the finger, saving the limbs when the surgeon’s instruments were lying on the table ready for their amputation. I have healed at one visit a cancer that had eaten the flesh of the neck and exposed the jugular vein so that it stood out like a cord. I have physically restored sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, speech to the dumb, and have made the lame walk.” – New York Sun, December 16, 1898”

        And then we have many children and adults dying now because this nonsense doesn’t work and has never worked.

        Your claims are that of a charlatan, Karen, because you cannot offer one scrap of evidence that your religion is any more real than the next. You are quite right, I can discount your nonsense because you offer nothing to support it.

        You are the one who has chosen to provide nothing which would allow this discussion to progress. Why do you refuse, Karen? Is it that you have nothing and you are loathe to admit it? It would not be “banging your head against a wall” if you actually had evidence, would it, Karen? Now, imagine if we were discussing penicillin. I could provide evidence for it working, and provide evidence that it makes some people very sick. The discussion could go on because I could provide evidence and we could discuss that. So spare me the wannabee martyrdom when your claims are addressed as any claim should be.

        It certainly isn’t helpful to your faith and your religion when you realize that your claims are simply nonsense. It would be helpful to millions if your claims were true and I wish they were to save so many from misery. But they aren’t.

        I know quite well what hospice care is and my sister-in-law provided it to my mother-in-law when she was dying from colon cancer. Yep, you used drugs, those drugs that you falsely claim that are so dangerous. You couldn’t heal her nor could any of your supposed CS practitioners could do anything, so you relied on modern medicine. You have shown that you have no faith in your supposed CS healing.

        I have no interest in your blog since it is only your hypocrisy write large, with your attempts to gain external validation for your beliefs in healings that don’t work, and your attacks on modern medicine that you end up using. I am always genuinely interested, but again you try to lie about me and claim I am not. So, I’ll prove you a teller of false tales and read the link you gave.

        Now, let’s look at what you said in your post and what I found the most important claim you made.

        “Whatever means a person chooses to use for healing – whether it’s naturopathy, traditional medical science, Christian Science treatment, or something else – that’s the form, the means, the method. The morale, or essence, of spiritual healing is Love – Love is the power that heals and transforms us. The God I follow – Love, Truth, Life, Principle, Mind, Soul, Spirit (synonyms Mary Baker Eddy, the discoverer of Christian Science, gave for “God”) – isn’t concerned with what kind of treatment we choose to use – Love is going to remain unchanging Love, and Truth is going to remain unchanging Truth, no matter what form or method we use for physical healing.”

        All it is appears to be is a Christian Scientist trying to claim modern medicine as really part of her religion and trying to claim that it “really” comes from this god you’ve invented so of course you can use it. How convenient, and just like when a theist cherry picks their religion so they can enjoy the things that they want. All you are doing is giving yourself an excuse to use whatever you want, and attributing everything to your magical imaginary friend, rather than to the hard work of humans. Funny how you can invent a god that really wants you to use modern medicine and not just trust in what Eddy said, but other people who claim the same religion as you are certain that this god doesn’t want them to use modern medicine at all. Which version of this latest schism shall we believe? Eddy claims illness is an illusion. What are you doing treating what you claim to believe is an illusion?

        You’ve just invented your own version of CS and ignored what was inconvenient about what Eddy said. “The author has attenuated Natrum muriaticum (common table-salt) until there was not a single saline property left … and yet, with one drop of that attenuation in a goblet of water, and a teaspoonful of the water administered at intervals of three hours, she has cured a patient sinking in the last stage of typhoid fever. The highest attenuation of homœopathy and the most potent rises above matter into mind. This discovery leads to more light. From it may be learned that either human faith or the divine Mind is the healer and that there is no efficacy in a drug.”

        The problem with this is that people still die from your nonsense, something you are loathe to admit even when their names are shown to you. There is no reason to think you care about those children whose names I related.

        Oh and per Eddy “Christ, Truth, gives mortals temporary food and clothing until the material, transformed with the ideal, disappears, and man is clothed and fed spiritually.- Mary Baker Eddy” from your blog post.

        Now what about those starving people in Somalia, South Sudan, etc? Where are the quail and the manna? It’s rather hard to explain these claims of Eddy and her followers when this god of theirs fails constantly.

      • Club/Vel – here’s what I suggest you do – I suggest you gird your loins and gather up your courage and go to this CS lecture and hear what the lecturer has to say. Right now you’re talking about him and about the lecture and about CS – and it seems to all be based on your own prejudices and biases, rather than what you’re hearing from people who are actually living this way of life.

        If CS hadn’t worked for me all these years, I would not be a CS. I ain’t no martyr to a religion. But it HAS worked for me – it has brought me healing.

        The stories I hear from my friends about surgeries gone awry, surgeries that leave people crippled, or – a friend just told me about the botched surgery that left a big, gaping hole in her father’s back that never healed and that eventually killed him – and the friends and family members who have died from the treatment for cancer rather than the cancer itself – and the colleague who died from a liver damaged by medical treatment – medical treatment is STILL the third-leading cause of death in this country – but people just seem to blindly accept it – without question – what the heck?! So when you write: The problem with this is that people still die from your nonsense…” – I’m, like, hello?!!!

        I found this post on the sciencebasedmedicine.org site:

        snoopdavidnivenon 19 Apr 2010 at 11:05 am
        “If you’re going to be ruthlessly realistic about cancer death without conventional treatment, you ought to be just as unsparing to what it looks like under a doctor’s care as well. When my wife died six years ago, after undergoing the maximum allowable rounds of chemo and radiation – when her oncologist informed her there was no more point to any further treatment – we got to watch her experience “horrific cachexia….. Think Nazi concentration camp survivor. think starving Africans. Think famine. Think having cheeks so sunken that your face looks like the skull underlying it” ANYWAY. The poor dear thing was, by your lights, the ideal patient – she would have no truck with `quackery’, and came to rely upon her doctor with the same quasi-religious fervor that the booboisie (according to you) foolishly place in alternative practitioners. She’d believed that, so long as she was receiving treatment, she had a hope to cling to; so that when he told her `no more’, it was as if God Himself had washed His hands of her. Just the way she’d’ve felt upon learning that the coffee enemas or the ph-corrective diet or the Chinese magnets were worthless after all.
        “Only last month, I lost my mother to liver cancer, ten days after her gastroenteologist misdiagnosed her with an ulcer(!). When it became obvious that her stmach pains were no ulcer, she too wanted only proper medical care in a hospital….where she was toild that nothing could be done, that she was terminal. Thereupon they starved her for two days with ice chips when she was begging for food and fluids. Why, you ask? Well, they were prepping her for more tests, you see. A second catscan….a bronchoscopy….a liver biopsy…and, oh yeah, a colonoscopy, too. Presumably that last one was just for good luck. When I asked if any of these tests could possibly result in either a different diagnosis or some kind of a treatment regimen, I was told no, she was too far gone, but that, as doctors, they were driven to find out as much about the precise nature of her cancer as possible.
        “Now, maybe I’m a cynic, a crank and a Luddite all rolled up in one, but I got the distinct impression I was watching a bunch of vultures trying to shoehorn in one last billable procedure while the body was still warm, and the insurance still valid. Because they made it a habit to meet with her before visiting hours, when her family couldn’t be there to protect her interests, and tryu to get her to sign off on these wholly-unnecessary procedures anyway…. AFTER we’d stridently insisted they treat her pain and nothing else. One thing is certain: not a single procedure they proposed was going to in any way treat or palliate her “belly filled with ascites fluid due to a liver chock full of tumor”. Which she died writhing beneath, seven days after being (correctly) diagnosed.
        “Incidentally, I don’t blame doctors for their patients’ cancers, nor their deaths. I know they’re doing the best they can…most of the time, anyway. I just thought you ought to tell the whole truth here: that those horrible, degrading cancer deaths people suffer without proper medical treatment? Most of the time, they suffer those exact same deaths WITH proper medical treatment.
        “Go on; tell me my data sampling is faulty, my accounting of events unreliable, and my experience apocryphal. I’ve done so much crying lately, frankly I could use the laugh.”
        http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/chemotherapy-versus-death-from-cancer/

      • So, to follow your logic, KMT, how do explain that over the last 40 years, the overall survival rate for children’s cancer has increased from 10% to nearly 90%?

        Love? The memory of water?

        No evidence based medicine.

        Look, if you’re going to claim a cause with a chosen effect, then you have to show how the connection between them is such that if you remove the connection the effect is severed form the claimed cause.

        This is science 101.

        You’re not doing it.

        This is where all alternative medicine jumps the shark, leaves the tracks, sets course for Crazy Town: it’s alternative BECAUSE it fails to meet this basic scientific requirement. Alt-medicine fails to produce the necessary connection that is needed to link a claimed cause with a claimed effect.

        This means you are making shit up.

        You are making shit up because it suits you to do so, because you make the causal claims and – like all alternative medicine – utterly and absolutely fail in your task to demonstrate the link. You believe there is a link but you don’t classify your causal claim as a faith-based belief. If you did, then fine. It’;s just another batshit crazy belief.

        But you don’t admit this truth.

        You don’t respect this truth.

        You make causal claims and then try to avoid the burden of proof – providing that evidence that demonstrates independent of your belief the link you presume is there – by telling us how horrible a particular medically treated result may be. You do this for one reason only: to create a false equivalency that assigns to medicine only the kind of results that you think best bolsters the necessary doubt and distrust needed against the scientific method itself in order to sell your snake oil in its place.

        That’s what you’re doing: selling doubt on the one hand while making magical claims on the other supported only by your faith that your causal claims are true in spite of overwhelming contrary evidence. Only the most credulous and gullible and vulnerable are ripe for your kind of deceit and dishonesty because if you were honest, you would admit modern medicine really is based on evidence of efficacy – demonstrations of how a cause is linked to an effect – that all alternative medicine fails to meet. You would champion the best of modern medicine rather than seek out the worst possible results. But doing so would undermine your real desire: to sell your woo.

        The dishonesty is selling your magical thinking as if it was in some way equivalent to evidence adduced treatments. Well, it’s not and you know it’s not. And the cost to those who buy your snake oil replacement is both real and pernicious for it advises people on the one hand to turn away from real medicine that is efficacious, and on the other hand to the magical thinking you rely on that is not (or you provide compelling evidence rather than anecdotal bullshit). You are selling harm and calling it love, sowing doubt and calling it care, selling woo and calling it science. That is why what you are doing is in fact and deed deplorable.

        Deplorable.

        And that speaks to your moral character that you seem able to submerge in the name of uplifting your self-inflated sense of pious concern for others that is patently untrue or you would stop doing it.

      • Well, you’re absolutely right, of course. I am deplorable, self-inflated, pious, and etc. I should be, like, locked-up for the good of society. Interned in a camp maybe. I should never have been allowed to marry – and certainly not to a nice, decent liberal man raised by his decent God-loving Methodist parents. I should never have been allowed to have children, and certainly never been allowed to raise them – it’s a miracle that they survived to adulthood and turned out to be such intelligent, healthy, whole, well-adjusted young men, considering their mom was a Christian Scientist. I should not be allowed to share in the rights of citizenship of this land – it’s far too good for the likes of me. I should certainly never have been allowed to vote – and never been allowed to participate in the democratic process. I should never have been allowed to be elected delegate to our state Democratic convention, and should never have been allowed to write letters and donate in support of environmental causes, the ACLU, gay rights, Habitat for Humanity, atheists, Amnesty International, and yes, universal health care (I don’t believe anyone should be denied the health care they feel they need just because they’re poor – health care should be considered a basic human right). I am, of course, just a cardboard cutout of a person – like every other Christian Scientist in the world.

        My children , by the way, were vaccinated (edit: the topic of vaccinations is probably worth a whole ‘nother blog post), and were taken by me to doctors, when the need arose – which wasn’t often – they were mostly healthy. They also were raised by their parents – as I was raised by mine – to not be quick to make judgments on others, to try to approach the world without bigotry, and to question political and religious dogma, and those in authority (including those in the medical profession).

        You have got a mighty fine echo chamber going on here. Please don’t let me waste any more of your time.

        Life bless you.

      • And here we go with the false martyrdom again. Still no evidence for your claims and still no healed people per your religion.
        Nice try with the strawmen you’ve invented, Karen, but all that shows you to be is someone who intentionally bears false witness against others. You certainly are a lovely example of Christian love, making false claims about others when they point out how your claims fail. No one has said you shouldn’t be allowed to marry or have children, quite unlike many of your fellow Christians, and no one has said you should be in a concentration camp, again quite unlike many of your fellow Christians. No one has said you shouldn’t have citizenship or be unable to vote either, again quite unlike many of your fellow Christians say about non-Christians.

        Now, why would someone like you make such false claims about others, Karen? Why did you choose to lie like that? Your bible says that your god hates liars and lies. The fact that you may have married a nice guy and had nice kids doesn’t absolve you from your baseless claims and now your lies about others. Your actions have shown what you really think and that certainly isn’t anything nice at all. And all of this because someone dared to point out your claims can’t be shown true just like any claim by a Catholic at Lourdes, a reiki practioner, a Hindu guru, or a Zimbabwean shaman.

        I’m guessing you are angry and frustrated. Angry because no one is accepting your claims blindly on how great your religion is and how great you are when you claim to know something special about the universe. Frustrated because you know you can’t provide the evidence we ask for and that you are indeed no better than another theist who claims such things. You’ve discovered that the universe doesn’t support you and we aren’t impressed by your claims. So you lash out impotently and intentionally lie about others because you aren’t the special snowflake you want everyone to acknowledge you to be. The mere existence of atheists threatens people like you since we are just as good and cared for as you.

        Again, plenty of us and others have donated to the ACLU, have voted Democratic, have protested Trump, have worked for Habitat for Humanity, etc. I’m terribly curious on how you donated in support of “atheists”. And yep, a lot of us are for universal health care.

        What myself and my friends aren’t for is lying to others that some magic will heal them and ignoring the fact that many have died because of the claims of your religion. You are held accountable for your claims and when you can’t support them, then there is no reason to think you are telling the truth or that your religion heals anyone. Your beneficial actions do not excuse the harm you and your religion has done. You are not a cut out at all, and funny how NO ONE said this, my dear wannabee martyr. I know you are a CS and you ignore a good part of your religion because it’s inconvenient. It is no surprise that you have gotten your kids vaccinated because you don’t trust CS claims of prayer healing what Eddy claimed any more than I do.

        You are a liar when you accuse myself and others here of being bigots because we dare to doubt your baseless claims. Questioning you and expecting you to be able to support your claims is what open minded people do, giving you the opportunity to tell us the truth and support your claims. That you refuse to do so is not our problem. We are questioning you and you are throwing a fit by trying to lie about us, showing that you want to question others but not be questioned yourself. You again are the worst kind of hypocrite, wanting to claim that you question religious dogma but you can’t take your own dogma being questioned.

        Please do go away, Karen. You refuse to answer questions and you don’t give a damn about the people your religion has killed. You have taught us nothing other than a Christian who is questioned has no problem lying about others if she feels cornered. You have nothing to show your religion is true, that healings have happened or that your claims are any different from any other Christian who claims that only their version works. You can’t even conceive that you could be wrong, so much for your claims of being so open. However, if you decide that you can show evidence to support your claims you are always welcome to post them.

        and life has been pretty nice to me. Your blessings aren’t needed either. I don’t find blessings from someone who lies about me worth much.

      • again, a failure of a theist to show that their claims of healing work. I should come up with a graphic that shows how many failures I’ve encountered in my comments. Perhaps something like the graphics that fighter pilots put on their planes to document those that when down in flames. And in this case, lies.

      • Karen, you do seem to have an issue with admitting you are wrong. “Club/Vel”? Really, can’t possibly use my name? What a petty person you seem to be.

        There is no reason to waste my time with baseless claims made by CS practitioners, Karen. I’ve read Eddy’s book, “Science and Health” that is touted as the end all and be all, so why would anything else be worthwhile? When the basic book of a religion fails, there is little reason to hear the excuses why it fails, especially from someone like you who ignores her religion when convenient. Again, Karen, why do you go to physicians when your religion says that isn’t necessary at all and that illness is an illusion? Your own words assure me that wasting time going to a lecture that speaks the same nonsense you do is not worth my time. I can simply go to the doctor just like you do!

        All theists make the same claim, Karen, that if it didn’t work, why would they still be practicing? Well, it’s because a lot of people can’t accept that they are wrong and make excuses as you have by going to the doctor but insisting that it was your prayers that “really” healed you, again ignoring the hard work of doctors in favor of pretending that you have some magical method to be healed. Now, since you insist that I go to the lecture, tell me what he would say that would be different from what you have said? Surely there would be a difference, right? You are indeed a martyr to a religion, you just decide what to ignore and how you can explain away why you can just go ahead and act just like me.

        Again, more baseless claims and no evidence. What kind of surgery leaves a “big gaping hole” in someone’s back, Karen? You give more anecdotes and still no evidence that any of your claims are true. You need to provide names, hospitals, medical records, etc. But you can’t. You whine about these supposed horrible things that happen from modern medicine (and be assured, screw-ups can happen) but then you use that modern medicine yourself with no problem. Such hypocrisy. And you don’t mention all of the screw-ups that Christian Science has caused, all the deaths that failed promises have caused. You want to point to failures in one things but do your best to hide and lie about failures of your religion. People do not blindly accept modern medicine, but surprise, it works the vast majority of the time. Your nonsense doesn’t. Yes, dear, hello? Do you realize how many people Christian Science has killed? If you are so concerned, why do you keep spreading your nonsense when it doesn’t work?

        Oh wow, you found a post on a site that is full of baseless claims and expect me to believe it. Really, Karen? Do you not get the concept of evidence is needed to show that your claims are true? Ol’ “Snoop” here has nothing to show his claims are true. Not one scrap but golly, Karen will believe you as long as you agree with her nonsense. Now, funny how no prayers worked at all and the cancer patient died just as often as cancer patients do.

        One doesn’t starve in two days, Karen, so why are you trying to lie to me about it posting these baseless claims? Why can’t you even give your own evidence for your own claims? There is no more reason to believe these stories than to believe you. You, and these people you quote, think they know more than doctors, and it’s pretty amusing that the one about liver cancer whines that surprise, once they found the cancer, then they did the tests to see how far it may have grown, which can indeed be into the colon, the lungs, etc if it metastasizes. You want to accept modern medicine but then attack it out of pure ignorance.

        Doctors do rounds before visiting hours because they don’t want to bother the family. Are you really this stupid, Karen? All of your claims of some horrible conspiracy are nothing more than regular medical procedures, again medical procedures you have no problem with using,, unless of course it shows your religion to be a lie. You are a crank like so many conspiracy theorist and yep, you have no evidence for your claims, just like they do. And hmmm, if other treatments were going to work why all of the sudden your quote about the liver cancer insist that nothing would work. Oh yes, ascites is just fluid built up in the abdomen. It can be treated by simply draining it away. So again, we see someone who is ignorant about medicine making a false claims that “not a single procedure they proposed was going to in any way treat or palliate” the condition.

        Again, Karen, we have you trying to spread false information in order to make your baseless claims sound more palatable. What is your excuse?

      • Makagutu – Oh gosh no. Don’t ever feel like you ever have to read or respond to any of my stuff. Since the Club seemed to be asking for experiences people have had with Christian Science healing, I thought I’d share my experiences. But, of course, no one is ever obligated to actually listen to other people, or try to see a new perspective, or maybe learn something new. No one is ever obligated to face and progress beyond his own biases, bigotry, and prejudices. This is America, after all. We’re all allowed our prejudices here. 🙂

        Life bless you.

      • The children who suffer and die from treatable diseases and injuries because some people believe prayer is sufficient are not produced from the “biases, bigotry, and prejudices” of those who criticize CS for promoting and inflicting an appalling ignorance. These victims are produced by you, by people who do not ‘believe’ in materia medica. That belief kills. And you want to pretend it’s reasonable, simply a “new perspective,” a means for other to ‘learn’ something new.

        No, it’s not.

        Your belief in this matter is an appalling ignorance that when put into practice kills real people in real life needlessly in the name of your piety. It’s unconscionable stupidity.

      • Karen,
        For a person who believed sickness is an illusion, telling me she lived to be 90 is ridiculous. Many people have lived past that age without such a silly belief. Additionally for one who believed they had a direct line with god, they died to early. I would think she would have tried to match Methusellah.

      • Your snarky post is expected. The problem with your claims is that you offer nothing new at all. All you have claimed is the same stuff that theists have claimed for thousands of years and still have no evidence for. We do actually listen to your claims but when they are nothing new and you can’t show that they happened at all, there is no new perspective to see and nothing at all new to learn. We already know there is no reason to believe someone who has no evidence to support her claims, just as if you claimed fairies were real or the illuminati controlled the earth. Your religion is no more true than Hinduism where claims of healing, and weeping gods abound or any other religion. I’m still waiting for your evidence. Surely you have some, right? Or is this just like Mary Baker Eddy who also had no evidence? She claimed to heal cancer so bad veins were sticking out, TB that was end stage, etc. Where are the amputees healed by CS, Karen? Why can’t your practioners do what Eddy promised?

        Reality is what is prejudiced against you, by it showing that your claims are nonsense. You of course try to pull the martyr card, trying your best to attack others when they show there is no reason to believe you or to consider you special because you try to claim to know something special and secret about the universe. There is no bias, bigotry or predjudice to hold you accountable for your claims and to point out when you make false ones.

        Now, Karen, as you could see on my blog post, assuming you actually read it and didn’t just assume you could answer me, we have this problem where CS practitioners were unable OR unwilling to heal a dying child when I asked them to. Now why did this child die if your claims of healing are true, Karen? Or will you ignore this question too because it demonstrates how entirely unpleasant and untrue your religion is?

      • Not to mention dangerous to all of us (think preventable outbreaks like measles) and directly fatal to some. It’s not a question of some vague god-is-love belief; it’s a question of an intentional disregard for public health and, therefore, criminal culpability.

    • Because people aren’t putting the crucifix in the right orifice. Don’t you know how Christian Science works? You have to turn the crucifix upside down and then push it up your nostril. Then you have to keep pushing, and pushing. If you push hard enough, at one point you’ll stop feeling pain.

      • heh. I will have to admit, when I saw crucifix and orifice, I had a hell of a flashback to when I read The Exorcist. Yuck. 🙂

        These people do act as if they’ve had lobotomies. This is the answer to my poor little CS when he couldn’t provide any evidence or heal that child in England: “Wow.

        Best wishes for peace, harmony, and happiness.

        C Palenz”

        Quite pathetic.

  3. more claims and of course no evidence offered by my corrrespondent: “When one of our sons was fourteen, he saw how realizing what God would not say to His child can lead to healing. He was high jumping and fell, with obvious evidence of a broken arm. A coach ran out to attend to him and told my son to stay still while he got a vehicle to transport him.

    As our son lay on the ground, he closed his eyes and turned to God in prayer. He said his prayer began something like this: “God, what am I supposed to think?” The message immediately came: “You know I didn’t do that.”

    To our son, that was a response to his prayer. So he reasoned, “If God wouldn’t say I am hurt, nor cause such a thing, what would He say?” The answer came that he couldn’t ever be separated from the spiritual perfection God made him to reflect.

    The next day, a surgeon’s X-ray showed that while two bones in our son’s arm had been severely broken in several places, all the fractures had been perfectly set and were rapidly healing. No surgery was required. The surgeon remarked that he didn’t know anyone who could have set all the fragments like that.” https://journal.christianscience.com/shared/view/1uexsnecxm0?s=e

    hmmm, what hospital? What’s the surgeon’s name? Where are the xrays?

    It’s a shame that people are so very very gullible and who have no problem lying to others.

  4. Hi, Club Schadenfreude –
    Now and then I’ve been asked to share evidence and proof of “God.” Now, for me, “God” is not a supernatural anthropomorphic being who throws thunderbolts from the heavens and sometimes chooses to help us and sometimes chooses to not. For me “God” is supremely natural – simply another name for Love, Truth, and Life – the power of Good. And I experience healing by drawing close to Love – by filling my thoughts up with Love, joy, hope, and courage, and so on. Here are some of the healings I’ve experienced:

    – I witnessed my little brother healed of doctor-diagnosed mastoiditus when he was 7 – the doctor said he was a “very sick boy” and might lose his hearing, would probably need surgery – and might even die – but none of that happened. When my mom got home she called a CS practitioner. That night – and I still remember this part very clearly – I could hear my little brother screaming in pain one moment, and the next he was snoring. Healing confirmed by the medical doctor the next day. That kind of thing is hard to ignore, discount, or forget once you’ve seen it.

    – A couple years ago my optometrist found a melanoma on my eyelid – he showed me a picture of it and had me set up an appointment with a surgeon right then. I was scared –
    and when I get scared I start cracking jokes – I had the surgeon’s receptionist cracking up on the other end of the line. Being able to laugh at the thing that scared me was really helpful to me. I felt the fear lift, and as I left the optometrist’s office I felt sort of buoyed up with joy and hope. I felt like I was in a bubble of Love. Which… that probably sounds weird… but that’s what I felt. I went to the eye surgeon two weeks later. He kept getting out stronger lenses to look at my eye. He wasn’t sure, for a while, if he was even looking at the right eye. Finally took a random clip of my skin where the melanoma should have been, and sent it out for testing. It, of course, came back negative.

    – After my hand inflated to twice its normal size, I went to the family doctor. The doctor told me I probably either had a serious infection or rheumatoid arthritis. The doctor sent me in for blood tests. The doctor suggested I start taking drugs – one for a possible infection, one for RA. I declined the drugs – told him I’d make that decision once we knew better what we were dealing with – and went home to call a CS practitioner for prayerful support. By the third morning my hand had completely deflated and I was fine. The blood tests came back. One of the markers indicated rheumatoid arthritis. They wanted to set me up with an RA specialist, but I told the nurse I was fine. She was shocked and said that she guessed I didn’t need to do anything else right then, but to let them know if the symptoms appeared again. That was six years ago. No return of the condition.

    – I was taken to the OR to have an emergency c-section with my second son. I asked my mom to call a CS practitioner for support. Just before they were going to slice me open, the surgical team got surprised looks on their faces, and starting telling me to push. The baby was born naturally. One of the OR nurses was crying because it was all so beautiful, and she’d never been able to see a natural delivery before. The midwife told me they don’t know what happened. It was a surprise to all of them.

    The response I get from friends after I share these experiences is really fascinating to me. Some friends – those who are open to the evidence I share with them, will celebrate and rejoice with me. But there are others – often friends who were raised as children with a different kind of a “God” than mine and rebelled against that thunderbolt-throwing god (and who can blame them?) – who seem unable to accept what I’m sharing.

    I’m told by these friends that I can’t just go around making up my own definition for “God.” I tell them I didn’t come up with this concept of God on my own and that it’s not a new concept – that in the Bible we’re told “God is love” (I John 4) and that as far back as the late 19th century Mary Baker Eddy listed these synonyms for God – “Principle, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Life, Truth, Love.”

    Okay, but these healings are not proofs of a supernatural being, these friends tell me – my body would have healed itself naturally, anyway. I agree with them – as Mary Baker Eddy writes in the Christian Science textbook, Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures: “Now, as then, these mighty works (healings) are not supernatural, but supremely natural.” Later she writes, “God is natural good… Truth should not seem so surprising and unnatural as error, and error should not seem so real as truth. Sickness should not seem so real as health.”

    At this point my friends will often tell me that, although I am, of course, a very nice person, I’m also completely cracked to trust my health to this power of good, rather than depending on the laboratory-tested workings of medical science.

    Ahem. Soooo… do I go there or do I not? If I go there…

    I might point out that, according to the American Medical Association, traditional medical health care is the third-leading cause of death in this country. I might share the countless stories of people who have died from medical treatment, rather than the original malady that brought them to the medical doctors. I might point out ta Newsweek story about the unsafe care Americans receive in our nation’s hospitals. Author Marty Makary writes: “Bad doctors. Prescription errors. Surgical slips. Medical mistakes injure or kill hundreds of thousands of Americans every year… When I was a medical student medical science began to seem as dangerous and dishonest as it was miraculous and precise. The defining moment came when I saw a sweet old lady I cared about die after a procedure she didn’t need and didn’t want.” (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/09/16/are-hospitals-less-safe-than-we-think.html) I might point out all the side effects (nausea, vomiting, dry mouth, depression, thoughts of suicide, weight gain, liver damage, heart attacks, death) listed on those drug commercials we’re all familiar with on television don’t instill in me an urgent desire to race to the nearest pharmacy. And then I might ask them, after all this, if it really seems logical or reasonable to question the sanity of thinking people who choose not to see medical science as the panacea for their health challenges.

    But because my world view is so different from theirs, these friends often experience a “cognitive dissonance” – an inability to recognize the healings I’ve experienced through my understanding of the power of God, Good, and the flaws in the system that they’ve come to depend on. The idea of not turning, first, to medical science and, instead, trusting in the power of Love, Truth, and Life, is so foreign and alien that they simply can’t seem to grasp the idea of it, or to acknowledge my healings as proof of God.

    I am not averse to visiting optometrists, dentists, and doctors when I feel the need to do so – I have no worries about being ex-communicated from my church or raising the wrath of God or anything – and I’m grateful for my doctors’ training, intelligence, and humor (all my doctors have a sense of humor – it is one of my requirements). But I have also proven, for myself, the constant, unchanging power of God when I’m able to draw near to Love and Truth – and I have found this power to be a dependable and effective one in my life.
    – Karen

    • Well, I think the facts speak for themselves: you are worthy of god’s love far, far more than the 21 children who died while you read this, 17 of whom died from either diarrhoea, malaria, neonatal infection, pneumonia, preterm delivery, or lack of oxygen at birth… all of which can occur if treated by prayer alone – even the right kind – rather than real medicine.

      Gosh, if only someone had called the CS ‘practitioner’ for the 34 kids who just died… because God needs a ‘practitioner’ from CS to know about spreading the love, obviously.

      Good grief. Do you even hear yourself or think about what it is you’re really saying? The self-absorbed arrogance – which is what makes you really special – is just astounding.

      • Because they’re special, you see, although they know they really shouldn’t be and won’t claim it outright but, you know, God has chosen them even though they’re not worthy, but, hey, if God says so, then, well…

        Oh the humbleness. To be so very special to the Creator of the Universe, no less. Not to themselves. Not to advertise, of course, but so very, very special nonetheless. Not their choice at all, you see. God’s. And who can argue… unless they’re just jealous, of course.

        The arrogance and victim-blaming (rarely spoken straight up but understood to be present in every CS ‘testimony’ that fails to ‘earn’ God’s love) is reprehensible. And yes, children die because of this kind of self-promoting hubris.

    • Karen,
      You may call me Vel. Club Schadenfreude is the name of my blog.

      Your claims are simply unsupported anecdotes, just like every other claim by a Christian Scientist as I demonstrated in my blog post. Now, you expect me to believe them, but I’m guessing you’d never accept the same claims from someone of a different sect or religion that made the same claim that their prayers or spells to whatever gods healed them.

      You also make the same nonsense claims about what you think your “God” is as many other theists. You don’t want the inconvenience of the god in the bible with its repeated failures so you make up one of your own that is supposedly “love truth and life” but again have no evidence that this entity exists or that it does anything at all. If this is the power of Good, then why does it fail so much and let people die, Karen? What excuse will you give when CS fails as it has repeatedly and people die? Will you try to blame the victim, playing pretend that it was their fault for not praying in the “right” way or not believing “enough”? Did they not draw close “enough” to Love? It’s also quite sad that you try to impugn that others aren’t thinking of love, joy hope and courage.

      Mastoiditis is treated by antibiotics. I know because I had it and my eardrum burst thanks to it, which suddenly reduced the pain. I’m guessing that if this happened at all, since you went to a doctor, and not just to a CS practitioner right off, your brother got antibiotics. If this is true, then you should be able to give me the name of the physician and I could contact them. Certainly they would remember such a supposedly miraculous healing. But funny how these supposed miracles are never touted and no medical records can be found nor any statement by a physician. I would also point out that you saw nothing if you only heard your brother screaming and then he was snoring.

      One diagnoses a melanoma by a biopsy, not a picture, as you know. Other people also use humor to relieve fear. Nothing is special about this. Again, where is this picture, who was the surgeon and who was the optometrist? Moles come and go, so again, nothing to show your claim is true.

      Again, it seems you go to the doctor with no problem, get treated and then attribute everything to your magic. Why don’t you just call up the CS practioner, Karen? Why bother going to a physician if you are so sure your magic works? And why doesn’t this magic work immediately as it should? Most ailments do clear up on their own in a few days. It seems your “Love” is nothing more than coincidence. I’ve also had the RA test done when I was around 12 and had painful hands and while it came back up mildly positive for RA, I’ve never had RA.

      If they were just about to slice you open for a c-section, then you would have been under anesthesia and would not have seen these supposed surprised faces. You would not have heard them tell you to push. You would not have seen anyone crying nor saying it was all so beautiful. If they weren’t just about to slice you open, then your story is false and it is no surprise that women can give birth naturally even if they were scheduled for a c-section.
      Your evidence is not evidence at all, Karen. All you have are unsupported claims. Evidence would be testimony from a physician, giving the name of the physician, photos, and medical records. I am open to evidence and expect you to provide some if you think I should believe you.

      You also repeat that sad old claim that people rebel against some god and that is made only to make yourself feel superior. Perhaps some atheists got disgusted with the false claims about a god, but most of us don’t believe because theists have no evidence for their claims, as you do not. There is no evidence to show that anyone is healed by any god, and plenty of evidence that people die because they believe the false claims spread by you and others. Robyn Twitchell, Shauntay Walker, Andrew Wantland, Ashley King, Ian Lundman, etc have died because your claims fail and fail and fail. The CS church released a supposed “study” that claimed that their prayers worked, but funny how they never could produce the data where they succeeded or where they failed.
      You may want to read this: https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/unbound/flashbks/xsci/suffer.htm to see just how badly people have suffered from the false claims of CS.

      People have made up their own gods for years, Karen, and yep, back in the bible and in the 19th century when Mary Baker Eddy made up her own and invented her own religion.

      I find it amusing when you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to claim that the magic spells invented by Eddy work but heck, natural healing works too. And there is no way for you to show a difference.

      I know you are not a nice person because you spread nonsense. It is no surprise that you try to bastardize actual research with your false claims. The AMA did not say that “traditional medical health care is the third-leading cause of death in this country”. There was a report that medical errors were, and that report was done by these folks: http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139 There was also a commentary, in the JAMA by Dr. Barbara Starfield http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/192908 which points out the complicated nature of medical error. Medical error is not the same as medical care. It is a shame that you would choose to misrepresent information, but I am used to that since creationists to this all of the time. It’s also pretty amusing that you avail yourself of this medical care constantly and never seem to only go for a CS prayer.

      I also happen to know quite a bit about medical error since I work for a state agency that regulates hospitals and nursing homes and we see the results of errors all of the time.

      As for the side effects of medicine, yep there are quite a few. However, they work and have evidence. CS has no evidence that it works at all. Again, Karen, you go to the doctor. Why if you claim it is so bad? All I see is a hypocrite.

      Your supposed friends don’t experience cognitive dissonance, they simply don’t believe in things with no evidence, just like you don’t believe the claims of other people. Not even you turn to your CS prayers first by your own stories. Yep, you have no problem in visiting doctors and then claiming that they are wrong. That’s the excuse you make for yourself so you can do whatever you want and still cling to your religion. It is this pious nonsense that makes me disgusted with so many theists, when you want to attack something but then avail yourself of it when convenient.

      Your claims fail as much as the claims of someone who went to Lourdes, someone who had one of the evangelical pastors supposedly heal them like John Hagee,, Peter Popoff or Benny Hinn or someone who had a reiki practioner balance their energy. Indeed you use the same tactics they do for trying to claim their healings were real.

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