Well, this week, the Christian Scientists here in Harrisburg mailed out fliers about how they were going to have a healing talk down at their church, by Josh Niles (a supposed veteran which make me wonder why the local VA hospital isn’t empty). There are few things I find more disgusting than theists making baseless claims on how they can heal people when hospitals are full, especially veterans’ hospitals and children’s hospitals. The deceit that is involved is amazing for a religion that supposedly cares about the truth.
I shot them an email and asked for evidence of this healing, and why they can’t heal anyone who actually has been hurt. They unsurprisingly directed me to the party line, and offered no reason why they haven’t healed amputees, people with documented cancers, etc. The claim was “Christ Jesus had a remarkable healing record and Christian Science has an excellent record too.” Directly me at this “excellent record.” I pointed out that they had no evidence, and I received this in reply “You may recall that there was a multitude of sick people at the Pool of Bethesda and only one was healed by Jesus. That man was receptive to what Jesus said to him and was obedient and was healed. The rest were “waiting for the moving of the waters”, a material approach of hope for healing and then only for some that made it to the pool.” The problem with this is that JC only talked to one fellow at the pool, who was just like the others. Why not speak to the others and heal them? And why doesn’t JC say “hey man, illness is an illusion, and only prayer in this certain way will heal you”, like the CS leader Mary Baker Eddy?
Well, how about we look at that “excellent record”? As a background, Christian Science, aka the Church of Christ, Scientist and The First Church of Christ, Scientist, is a sect of Christianity invented by various people and Mary Baker Eddy is the most famous of them. She claimed that sickness is an “illusion”, is the result of thinking “wrongly” (aka blame the victim) and can be cured by prayer alone. They also think that only their claimed spiritual world is real and that reality, this place that we inhabit is illusion. I do have a lovely ladle of molten steel they might take a dip in if they are sure of this. We also have the claim that CS is getting back to the “real” Christianity, a claim that many many sects make.
Incidentally, a word to advice to Christians (and other theists) who are reading this, ready to insist that CS isn’t “really” Christianity: think about how your sect compares with this one and how all of you have no evidence for your claims. However, I will admit that Christian Science is only slightly less silly and bizarre than Scientology in my estimation ( just read about malicious animal magnetism, which is hard to distinguish from spiritual warfare, imprecatory prayer and thetans).
What is amusing about this is that the religion doesn’t say you can’t use modern medicine, but they claim that their prayers are better than it. So, it isnt’ surprising that these are the stereotypical Christians who praise their god when it was the hard work of medical professionals who actually helped them. Of course, they’ve managed to also murder children and kill themselves with this ignorance. One might counter my claim of murder with claims that these people don’t know what they are doing, however, if their religion allows going to medical professionals, then they know that they have an alternative and one that works. Either that, or they are truly delusional (delusion: a belief that is: certainty (held with absolute conviction), incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary),impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre, or patently untrue) and should be considered as mentally ill as the next person who has delusions. You’ll note that the common definition of a delusion has religion or culture as an out for such beliefs, which doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, other than to protect the sensibilities of those particular beliefs.
So, we have a religion that claims that they can heal, much like how evangelical Christian preachers who claim they can heal, practioners of other religion and practioners of various types of spiritual or energy healing. We also have record of MBE making claim that she was not healed in order to attempt to seek damages from the city.
In 1898, MBE made this claim “”After my discovery of Christian Science, I healed consumption in the last stages, a case which the M.D.’s, by verdict of the stethoscope and the schools, had declared incurable, because the lungs were mostly consumed. I healed malignant diphtheria and carious bones that could be dented by the finger, saving the limbs when the surgeon’s instruments were lying on the table ready for their amputation. I have healed at one visit a cancer that had eaten the flesh of the neck and exposed the jugular vein so that it stood out like a cord. I have physically restored sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, speech to the dumb, and have made the lame walk.” – New York Sun, December 16, 1898
That’s quite a claim. No evidence for it at all, but quite a claim. Then we have her make this claim “Until the advancing age admits the efficacy and supremacy of Mind, it is better for Christian Scientists to leave surgery and the adjustment of broken bones and dislocations to the fingers of a surgeon, while the mental healer confines himself chiefly to mental reconstruction and to the prevention of inflammation. Christian Science is always the most skilful surgeon, but surgery is the branch of its healing which will be last acknowledged. However, it is but just to say that the author has already in her possession well-authenticated records of the cure, by herself and her students through mental surgery alone, of broken bones, dislocated joints, and spinal vertebræ” – Eddy, Science and Health. Pretty damn convenient, isn’t it? And so very reminiscent of a con artist’s classic claim that the “real magic” will be taught last, after they’ve squeezed the money from the mark. She also blamed the aforementioned “malicious animal magnetism” for her healing failing, and when her healing failed to cure contagious diseases, well, it was the thing to take the vaccine and pray about later.
We also have the Canadian Journal of Medicine and Surgery (circa 1899, starting on page 236)giving many quotes from Ms. Eddy, and their considered opinion of her nonsense (not that medicine was that much more coherent at the time). “Ignorance of hygiene is a blessing.” is only one of the choice bits of ignorance Christian Science advances.
The folks at the local CS church gave me links to their publications and claimed that this was evidence of their “excellent record” of healing. All of the stories are anecdotes. They “verify” these by the following : “Include names, telephone numbers, and e-mail (or post office) addresses of three people who would be willing to verify your testimony. Verifiers should be people who know you well and have either witnessed the healing or can vouch for your integrity in sharing it.”
Hmmm, almost as good as what the Catholic Church does. Now, I wonder, do Catholics and Christian Scientists agree that each other’s healings have happened or do they question them for the same reasons that I do: that there is no evidence at all for them? One can see the testimonials at the CS website and in the Science and Health book by Eddy. It is most curious that no one is identifiable and that no evidence is given to corroborate such miraculous claims. Now, compare this to the claims of healing by a certain Indian fellow, Mohan Joshi. Update: I do have a name, Margaret McCain La Grange, and that hallelujah, a “black spot” was miraculously removed. Pish and tosh about the people who have had limbs blown off by IEDs, when Ms La Grange had a “spot” removed.
The CS did claim to have done an “empirical” study on their healing methods and released this paper: “An Empirical Analysis of Medical Evidence in Christian Science Testimonies of Healing, 1969-1988” Unsurprisingly, the research was at best….questionable. There are no medical records offered as evidence and claims of medical follow up to confirm the healings are no where to be found. In addition to this, there was no data on how many healings failed to compare with the claims of success. This, as my alert readers know, is simply confirmation bias written as a paper. This review of the paper underlines this quite well. One example is that the CS claimed 5 healings of pneumonia over the period of 20 years. There is no information on how many healings failed, which would at least give a total population that was supposedly treated by the CS method. Considering that UNICEF has that 920,000 children died from pneumonia in 2015, one can be relatively comfortable that quite a few more died in that 20 years before better treatments. And we have 5 supposedly healed out of what a generous guess would be 18.4 million? And still no evidence that it even occurred. The report also points out that they mentioned no successes in known fatal diseases and plenty of dead children to show that the healing fails. ( it is no small irony that MBE died of pneumonia herself)
These believers are at best simply willfully ignorant and selfish, at worst con artists who make their money making false claims and getting people dead. That nice lady at the Christian Science Reading Room is pedaling trash.
I asked my correspondent at the local CS church this in response to his claim here “Perhaps you or a loved one is seeking healing. You may be interested to know that Christian Science healing is written down in “Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures” by Mary Baker Eddy and is available in bookstores and online, and will be available at the lecture along with the Bible.”:
Now, I have no one who needs healing, but I will ask you this: heal Charlie Gard, the dying child in England. I will hope that I am greeted by the wonderful news that he is happy and healthy and his parents are not grieving. I’m not paying you money to do so, but if you are decent human being, you’ll do this anyway.
Here’s betting a thousand quatloos that nothing will come of this.
Addendum: 7/27/2017 This was the pathetic response from my CS correspondent to my above request ““Wow.Best wishes for peace, harmony, and happiness. C Palenz”
What a complete failure.
47 thoughts on “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – Christian “Science” and the art of the con”
“By an act of will we can alter facts!”
This belief seems to be the unspoken rallying cry not just of religious wingnuts but a growing sentiment throughout the Left about all kinds of issues.
It is worrisome.
Why wasn’t Mary Baker able to will herself to lengthen her stay here on earth? It should be easy, right?
That Jesus, who Christians claim is god, could only heal one person when he didn’t require any material resources but words points to a failure in proportions that I don’t want to imagine.
one does have to wonder about that. She evidently couldn’t heal herself, couldn’t pay the fee to be healed by one of her “students” or they didn’t want to heal her.
or it was simply bullshit all the way down.
I will go with bullshit all the way down
Well, she lived to be almost 90, soooo… I think she did alright. 🙂
Well considering my grandma lived to 93 and didn’t do any of the nonsense that CS claims works, it shows your claim to have no causation.
My mother in law – a die-hard atheist – is currently 101, living at home, and remains brighter than most, including me. Maybe she has a closet CS ‘practitioner’ keeping her going from afar.
That generation is amazing, ain’t it? My dad turned 99 this summer – he was born at the end of World War I – born before women had the right to vote, born before “talking pictures” and television and man landed on the moon. He and Mom celebrated and cried with joy when they saw the first African-American become President – they never thought they’d live long enough to see that. I’m really hoping Dad will live long enough to see our current President leave office. But I digress…
Anyway. I brought up Eddy’s age in response to someone who seemed to think she should have lived forever or something. My own feeling about longevity is… I’ve lived almost long enough to be considered an “old fart” now… long life is not my goal. I want a life that means something – I want to do what I can to leave this place better than when I arrived, and I look for opportunities to do that. I helped build a home for Habitat for Humanity; I teach in an alternative high school (non-religious) that serves a mostly minority population (7/8 of our students are Latino); I contribute to the ACLU, Southern Poverty and Law Center, World Wildlife Fund, Doctors Without Borders, and etc.; I went as a delegate for Obama at the 2012 State Convention; I’ve written and spoken out against bigotry towards gays, racial and ethnic minorities, atheists, and… well, yesterday I tried to address some bigotry towards my own way of life – but that one did not go over so well. 🙂
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Nice try to ignore the point made that your nonsense about Eddy living to “almost”” 90 had something to do with CS was silly since plenty of non-CS people live that old and older. Now, you invent the excuse that you aren’t “really” interested in a long life, even though this doesn’t track well with what you claimed before the flaw in your reasoning was pointed out. Again, we get to see your excuses for when your nonsense doesn’t work.
Plenty of us do exactly like you do, contributing to charities, helping the poor, etc. We’ve also written and spoke about bigotry against ourselves, race, LGBTQ, etc. Again, you are no better than us.
However, You are indeed pathetic when you claim that anyone here is a bigot, when all you are whining about is that people hold you accountable for your baseless claims and your failed religion which claims healing that doesn’t happen. I don’t accept lies from anyone, be it a female CS practitioner or a Nazi. Is it bigotry to point out that your religion has killed quite a few people, Karen? You make a promise and you can’t follow through with fulfilling that promise. You are no better than Benny Hinn with his begging for money so he can keep on “healing”, just like any charlatan. I don’t believe him and I don’t believe you or the same reason. It isn’t bigotry to stand against baseless nonsense. Many Christians will claim “but it isn’t hurting anyone” but we know that in the CS case, it has.
Now, we are expecting you to support your claims with evidence and explain why CS claims of healing fail. Rather than making false claims of bigotry, why not show us why we should believe you? You were the one who came here with claims that you insist are true. The burden is upon you to show that they are. One way you could do this is have every kid in my local children’s hospital, Penn State Health Children’s Hospital or all of the wounded vets in my local VA hospital healed. You don’t even have to be near by for it to work per your religion and considering what Eddy claimed possible, it should be no problem at all.
Let’s remind you and everyone else what Mary Baker Eddy claimed her method would cure ““”After my discovery of Christian Science, I healed consumption in the last stages, a case which the M.D.’s, by verdict of the stethoscope and the schools, had declared incurable, because the lungs were mostly consumed. I healed malignant diphtheria and carious bones that could be dented by the finger, saving the limbs when the surgeon’s instruments were lying on the table ready for their amputation. I have healed at one visit a cancer that had eaten the flesh of the neck and exposed the jugular vein so that it stood out like a cord. I have physically restored sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, speech to the dumb, and have made the lame walk.” – New York Sun, December 16, 1898”
i am hoping you can answer questions honestly put to you, Karen and explain why you are trying to call anyone who does not agree with your claims which you present no evidence for, bigots. If you cannot, there is little reason to consider your claims true. You seem to be like so many other claimants to Christianity, willing to bear false witness against others and running away when the hard questions start. You should read some of the claims in comments here by a person calling him/herself “scientific Christian” and reflect on why their claims and yours are both unbelievable.
My local Christian science church sent out another flyer to try to convince others that their claims are true. It’s a shame that Ms. Kari Mashos, yet one more pay for pray practioner can’t use her magic powers at my local VA hospital or children’s hospital. There at also hospices around. Surely Ms. Mashos can do something for them. But alas, maybe they just don’t pay enough or pray the “right” way.
You asked for experiences of healing, and I gave you some. It’s your choice, of course, whether you choose to believe these experiences or not. But I think you would agree with me that when someone chooses not to believe what you’re sharing with them, it’s kind of silly to waste your time in continual dialogue with that person, right? It’s like banging your head against a wall. Not helpful to the other person, and certainly not helpful to yourself. Regarding hospice care – I actually provided hospice care to Mom in my home – I administered the drugs and so forth. I was really glad I was able to do that for her, and she was able to pass on in my home, rather than some institution full of strangers. Anyway. Here’s a blog post that might help you better understand where I’m coming from in regards to CS healing and traditional medical care – if you’re genuinely interested: https://madcapchristianscientist.com/2014/03/22/radical-reliance-on-truth/
If anything, I asked for evidence for the claims made by you and other Christian Scientists, not anecdotes aka “experiences” or baseless opinions. It’s no surprise that you have tried to misrepresent what I have said. You have again failed to produce any evidence that CS healing claims are true and that this method claimed by you and Ms. Eddy works. You’ve also evidently ignored my replies to you since you still can’t figure out that “Club Schadenfreude” is the name of the blog, not me.
You have ignored my questions and requests, so again there is still no reason to believe your claims, Karen. Like my local CS church which is having yet one practitioner come in, there is no evidence to be seen, but a lot of baseless nonsense to be heard.
Your religion’s leader made claims like this “After my discovery of Christian Science, I healed consumption in the last stages, a case which the M.D.’s, by verdict of the stethoscope and the schools, had declared incurable, because the lungs were mostly consumed. I healed malignant diphtheria and carious bones that could be dented by the finger, saving the limbs when the surgeon’s instruments were lying on the table ready for their amputation. I have healed at one visit a cancer that had eaten the flesh of the neck and exposed the jugular vein so that it stood out like a cord. I have physically restored sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, speech to the dumb, and have made the lame walk.” – New York Sun, December 16, 1898”
And then we have many children and adults dying now because this nonsense doesn’t work and has never worked.
Your claims are that of a charlatan, Karen, because you cannot offer one scrap of evidence that your religion is any more real than the next. You are quite right, I can discount your nonsense because you offer nothing to support it.
You are the one who has chosen to provide nothing which would allow this discussion to progress. Why do you refuse, Karen? Is it that you have nothing and you are loathe to admit it? It would not be “banging your head against a wall” if you actually had evidence, would it, Karen? Now, imagine if we were discussing penicillin. I could provide evidence for it working, and provide evidence that it makes some people very sick. The discussion could go on because I could provide evidence and we could discuss that. So spare me the wannabee martyrdom when your claims are addressed as any claim should be.
It certainly isn’t helpful to your faith and your religion when you realize that your claims are simply nonsense. It would be helpful to millions if your claims were true and I wish they were to save so many from misery. But they aren’t.
I know quite well what hospice care is and my sister-in-law provided it to my mother-in-law when she was dying from colon cancer. Yep, you used drugs, those drugs that you falsely claim that are so dangerous. You couldn’t heal her nor could any of your supposed CS practitioners could do anything, so you relied on modern medicine. You have shown that you have no faith in your supposed CS healing.
I have no interest in your blog since it is only your hypocrisy write large, with your attempts to gain external validation for your beliefs in healings that don’t work, and your attacks on modern medicine that you end up using. I am always genuinely interested, but again you try to lie about me and claim I am not. So, I’ll prove you a teller of false tales and read the link you gave.
Now, let’s look at what you said in your post and what I found the most important claim you made.
“Whatever means a person chooses to use for healing – whether it’s naturopathy, traditional medical science, Christian Science treatment, or something else – that’s the form, the means, the method. The morale, or essence, of spiritual healing is Love – Love is the power that heals and transforms us. The God I follow – Love, Truth, Life, Principle, Mind, Soul, Spirit (synonyms Mary Baker Eddy, the discoverer of Christian Science, gave for “God”) – isn’t concerned with what kind of treatment we choose to use – Love is going to remain unchanging Love, and Truth is going to remain unchanging Truth, no matter what form or method we use for physical healing.”
All it is appears to be is a Christian Scientist trying to claim modern medicine as really part of her religion and trying to claim that it “really” comes from this god you’ve invented so of course you can use it. How convenient, and just like when a theist cherry picks their religion so they can enjoy the things that they want. All you are doing is giving yourself an excuse to use whatever you want, and attributing everything to your magical imaginary friend, rather than to the hard work of humans. Funny how you can invent a god that really wants you to use modern medicine and not just trust in what Eddy said, but other people who claim the same religion as you are certain that this god doesn’t want them to use modern medicine at all. Which version of this latest schism shall we believe? Eddy claims illness is an illusion. What are you doing treating what you claim to believe is an illusion?
You’ve just invented your own version of CS and ignored what was inconvenient about what Eddy said. “The author has attenuated Natrum muriaticum (common table-salt) until there was not a single saline property left … and yet, with one drop of that attenuation in a goblet of water, and a teaspoonful of the water administered at intervals of three hours, she has cured a patient sinking in the last stage of typhoid fever. The highest attenuation of homœopathy and the most potent rises above matter into mind. This discovery leads to more light. From it may be learned that either human faith or the divine Mind is the healer and that there is no efficacy in a drug.”
The problem with this is that people still die from your nonsense, something you are loathe to admit even when their names are shown to you. There is no reason to think you care about those children whose names I related.
Oh and per Eddy “Christ, Truth, gives mortals temporary food and clothing until the material, transformed with the ideal, disappears, and man is clothed and fed spiritually.- Mary Baker Eddy” from your blog post.
Now what about those starving people in Somalia, South Sudan, etc? Where are the quail and the manna? It’s rather hard to explain these claims of Eddy and her followers when this god of theirs fails constantly.
Club/Vel – here’s what I suggest you do – I suggest you gird your loins and gather up your courage and go to this CS lecture and hear what the lecturer has to say. Right now you’re talking about him and about the lecture and about CS – and it seems to all be based on your own prejudices and biases, rather than what you’re hearing from people who are actually living this way of life.
If CS hadn’t worked for me all these years, I would not be a CS. I ain’t no martyr to a religion. But it HAS worked for me – it has brought me healing.
The stories I hear from my friends about surgeries gone awry, surgeries that leave people crippled, or – a friend just told me about the botched surgery that left a big, gaping hole in her father’s back that never healed and that eventually killed him – and the friends and family members who have died from the treatment for cancer rather than the cancer itself – and the colleague who died from a liver damaged by medical treatment – medical treatment is STILL the third-leading cause of death in this country – but people just seem to blindly accept it – without question – what the heck?! So when you write: The problem with this is that people still die from your nonsense…” – I’m, like, hello?!!!
I found this post on the sciencebasedmedicine.org site:
snoopdavidnivenon 19 Apr 2010 at 11:05 am
“If you’re going to be ruthlessly realistic about cancer death without conventional treatment, you ought to be just as unsparing to what it looks like under a doctor’s care as well. When my wife died six years ago, after undergoing the maximum allowable rounds of chemo and radiation – when her oncologist informed her there was no more point to any further treatment – we got to watch her experience “horrific cachexia….. Think Nazi concentration camp survivor. think starving Africans. Think famine. Think having cheeks so sunken that your face looks like the skull underlying it” ANYWAY. The poor dear thing was, by your lights, the ideal patient – she would have no truck with `quackery’, and came to rely upon her doctor with the same quasi-religious fervor that the booboisie (according to you) foolishly place in alternative practitioners. She’d believed that, so long as she was receiving treatment, she had a hope to cling to; so that when he told her `no more’, it was as if God Himself had washed His hands of her. Just the way she’d’ve felt upon learning that the coffee enemas or the ph-corrective diet or the Chinese magnets were worthless after all.
“Only last month, I lost my mother to liver cancer, ten days after her gastroenteologist misdiagnosed her with an ulcer(!). When it became obvious that her stmach pains were no ulcer, she too wanted only proper medical care in a hospital….where she was toild that nothing could be done, that she was terminal. Thereupon they starved her for two days with ice chips when she was begging for food and fluids. Why, you ask? Well, they were prepping her for more tests, you see. A second catscan….a bronchoscopy….a liver biopsy…and, oh yeah, a colonoscopy, too. Presumably that last one was just for good luck. When I asked if any of these tests could possibly result in either a different diagnosis or some kind of a treatment regimen, I was told no, she was too far gone, but that, as doctors, they were driven to find out as much about the precise nature of her cancer as possible.
“Now, maybe I’m a cynic, a crank and a Luddite all rolled up in one, but I got the distinct impression I was watching a bunch of vultures trying to shoehorn in one last billable procedure while the body was still warm, and the insurance still valid. Because they made it a habit to meet with her before visiting hours, when her family couldn’t be there to protect her interests, and tryu to get her to sign off on these wholly-unnecessary procedures anyway…. AFTER we’d stridently insisted they treat her pain and nothing else. One thing is certain: not a single procedure they proposed was going to in any way treat or palliate her “belly filled with ascites fluid due to a liver chock full of tumor”. Which she died writhing beneath, seven days after being (correctly) diagnosed.
“Incidentally, I don’t blame doctors for their patients’ cancers, nor their deaths. I know they’re doing the best they can…most of the time, anyway. I just thought you ought to tell the whole truth here: that those horrible, degrading cancer deaths people suffer without proper medical treatment? Most of the time, they suffer those exact same deaths WITH proper medical treatment.
“Go on; tell me my data sampling is faulty, my accounting of events unreliable, and my experience apocryphal. I’ve done so much crying lately, frankly I could use the laugh.”
So, to follow your logic, KMT, how do explain that over the last 40 years, the overall survival rate for children’s cancer has increased from 10% to nearly 90%?
Love? The memory of water?
No evidence based medicine.
Look, if you’re going to claim a cause with a chosen effect, then you have to show how the connection between them is such that if you remove the connection the effect is severed form the claimed cause.
This is science 101.
You’re not doing it.
This is where all alternative medicine jumps the shark, leaves the tracks, sets course for Crazy Town: it’s alternative BECAUSE it fails to meet this basic scientific requirement. Alt-medicine fails to produce the necessary connection that is needed to link a claimed cause with a claimed effect.
This means you are making shit up.
You are making shit up because it suits you to do so, because you make the causal claims and – like all alternative medicine – utterly and absolutely fail in your task to demonstrate the link. You believe there is a link but you don’t classify your causal claim as a faith-based belief. If you did, then fine. It’;s just another batshit crazy belief.
But you don’t admit this truth.
You don’t respect this truth.
You make causal claims and then try to avoid the burden of proof – providing that evidence that demonstrates independent of your belief the link you presume is there – by telling us how horrible a particular medically treated result may be. You do this for one reason only: to create a false equivalency that assigns to medicine only the kind of results that you think best bolsters the necessary doubt and distrust needed against the scientific method itself in order to sell your snake oil in its place.
That’s what you’re doing: selling doubt on the one hand while making magical claims on the other supported only by your faith that your causal claims are true in spite of overwhelming contrary evidence. Only the most credulous and gullible and vulnerable are ripe for your kind of deceit and dishonesty because if you were honest, you would admit modern medicine really is based on evidence of efficacy – demonstrations of how a cause is linked to an effect – that all alternative medicine fails to meet. You would champion the best of modern medicine rather than seek out the worst possible results. But doing so would undermine your real desire: to sell your woo.
The dishonesty is selling your magical thinking as if it was in some way equivalent to evidence adduced treatments. Well, it’s not and you know it’s not. And the cost to those who buy your snake oil replacement is both real and pernicious for it advises people on the one hand to turn away from real medicine that is efficacious, and on the other hand to the magical thinking you rely on that is not (or you provide compelling evidence rather than anecdotal bullshit). You are selling harm and calling it love, sowing doubt and calling it care, selling woo and calling it science. That is why what you are doing is in fact and deed deplorable.
And that speaks to your moral character that you seem able to submerge in the name of uplifting your self-inflated sense of pious concern for others that is patently untrue or you would stop doing it.
Well, you’re absolutely right, of course. I am deplorable, self-inflated, pious, and etc. I should be, like, locked-up for the good of society. Interned in a camp maybe. I should never have been allowed to marry – and certainly not to a nice, decent liberal man raised by his decent God-loving Methodist parents. I should never have been allowed to have children, and certainly never been allowed to raise them – it’s a miracle that they survived to adulthood and turned out to be such intelligent, healthy, whole, well-adjusted young men, considering their mom was a Christian Scientist. I should not be allowed to share in the rights of citizenship of this land – it’s far too good for the likes of me. I should certainly never have been allowed to vote – and never been allowed to participate in the democratic process. I should never have been allowed to be elected delegate to our state Democratic convention, and should never have been allowed to write letters and donate in support of environmental causes, the ACLU, gay rights, Habitat for Humanity, atheists, Amnesty International, and yes, universal health care (I don’t believe anyone should be denied the health care they feel they need just because they’re poor – health care should be considered a basic human right). I am, of course, just a cardboard cutout of a person – like every other Christian Scientist in the world.
My children , by the way, were vaccinated (edit: the topic of vaccinations is probably worth a whole ‘nother blog post), and were taken by me to doctors, when the need arose – which wasn’t often – they were mostly healthy. They also were raised by their parents – as I was raised by mine – to not be quick to make judgments on others, to try to approach the world without bigotry, and to question political and religious dogma, and those in authority (including those in the medical profession).
You have got a mighty fine echo chamber going on here. Please don’t let me waste any more of your time.
Life bless you.
And here we go with the false martyrdom again. Still no evidence for your claims and still no healed people per your religion.
Nice try with the strawmen you’ve invented, Karen, but all that shows you to be is someone who intentionally bears false witness against others. You certainly are a lovely example of Christian love, making false claims about others when they point out how your claims fail. No one has said you shouldn’t be allowed to marry or have children, quite unlike many of your fellow Christians, and no one has said you should be in a concentration camp, again quite unlike many of your fellow Christians. No one has said you shouldn’t have citizenship or be unable to vote either, again quite unlike many of your fellow Christians say about non-Christians.
Now, why would someone like you make such false claims about others, Karen? Why did you choose to lie like that? Your bible says that your god hates liars and lies. The fact that you may have married a nice guy and had nice kids doesn’t absolve you from your baseless claims and now your lies about others. Your actions have shown what you really think and that certainly isn’t anything nice at all. And all of this because someone dared to point out your claims can’t be shown true just like any claim by a Catholic at Lourdes, a reiki practioner, a Hindu guru, or a Zimbabwean shaman.
I’m guessing you are angry and frustrated. Angry because no one is accepting your claims blindly on how great your religion is and how great you are when you claim to know something special about the universe. Frustrated because you know you can’t provide the evidence we ask for and that you are indeed no better than another theist who claims such things. You’ve discovered that the universe doesn’t support you and we aren’t impressed by your claims. So you lash out impotently and intentionally lie about others because you aren’t the special snowflake you want everyone to acknowledge you to be. The mere existence of atheists threatens people like you since we are just as good and cared for as you.
Again, plenty of us and others have donated to the ACLU, have voted Democratic, have protested Trump, have worked for Habitat for Humanity, etc. I’m terribly curious on how you donated in support of “atheists”. And yep, a lot of us are for universal health care.
What myself and my friends aren’t for is lying to others that some magic will heal them and ignoring the fact that many have died because of the claims of your religion. You are held accountable for your claims and when you can’t support them, then there is no reason to think you are telling the truth or that your religion heals anyone. Your beneficial actions do not excuse the harm you and your religion has done. You are not a cut out at all, and funny how NO ONE said this, my dear wannabee martyr. I know you are a CS and you ignore a good part of your religion because it’s inconvenient. It is no surprise that you have gotten your kids vaccinated because you don’t trust CS claims of prayer healing what Eddy claimed any more than I do.
You are a liar when you accuse myself and others here of being bigots because we dare to doubt your baseless claims. Questioning you and expecting you to be able to support your claims is what open minded people do, giving you the opportunity to tell us the truth and support your claims. That you refuse to do so is not our problem. We are questioning you and you are throwing a fit by trying to lie about us, showing that you want to question others but not be questioned yourself. You again are the worst kind of hypocrite, wanting to claim that you question religious dogma but you can’t take your own dogma being questioned.
Please do go away, Karen. You refuse to answer questions and you don’t give a damn about the people your religion has killed. You have taught us nothing other than a Christian who is questioned has no problem lying about others if she feels cornered. You have nothing to show your religion is true, that healings have happened or that your claims are any different from any other Christian who claims that only their version works. You can’t even conceive that you could be wrong, so much for your claims of being so open. However, if you decide that you can show evidence to support your claims you are always welcome to post them.
and life has been pretty nice to me. Your blessings aren’t needed either. I don’t find blessings from someone who lies about me worth much.
again, a failure of a theist to show that their claims of healing work. I should come up with a graphic that shows how many failures I’ve encountered in my comments. Perhaps something like the graphics that fighter pilots put on their planes to document those that when down in flames. And in this case, lies.
When Jesus was called to heal the child that was dying, Jairus’ daughter, see Mathew 9:18-26 and Mark 5: 21-43 the first thing he did as retold in both accounts, was to put the people who were ‘laughing him to scorn’ out of the room. The point is we could argue if this healing is real and happened as per the accounts in those chapters or say it is impossible to prove therefore possibly a fairytale. But its interesting to note that in his day, it seems his claims that he could heal and that healing was possible were regarded as laughable. Jesus claimed in tbis instance that the girl was not dead but simply sleeping – why did he say that? He couldnt face that fact? He couldnt bare it? He was looking at the glass as half full? Or perhaps he knew death was the illusion? I dont know, i dont have a direct line to ask him but she was healed. He proved them wrong.
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In that the bible and the New Testament make repeated false claims and contradictory statements, there is no reason to believe one myth over another. Now let’s look at what was said in the parts you mentioned:
“18 While he was saying these things to them, suddenly a leader of the synagogue[a] came in and knelt before him, saying, “My daughter has just died; but come and lay your hand on her, and she will live.” 19 And Jesus got up and followed him, with his disciples. 20 Then suddenly a woman who had been suffering from hemorrhages for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe of his cloak, 21 for she said to herself, “If I only touch his cloak, I will be made well.” 22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well. 23 When Jesus came to the leader’s house and saw the flute players and the crowd making a commotion, 24 he said, “Go away; for the girl is not dead but sleeping.” And they laughed at him. 25 But when the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took her by the hand, and the girl got up. 26 And the report of this spread throughout that district.”
21 When Jesus had crossed again in the boat[a] to the other side, a great crowd gathered around him; and he was by the sea. 22 Then one of the leaders of the synagogue named Jairus came and, when he saw him, fell at his feet 23 and begged him repeatedly, “My little daughter is at the point of death. Come and lay your hands on her, so that she may be made well, and live.” 24 So he went with him.
And a large crowd followed him and pressed in on him. 25 Now there was a woman who had been suffering from hemorrhages for twelve years. 26 She had endured much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had; and she was no better, but rather grew worse. 27 She had heard about Jesus, and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28 for she said, “If I but touch his clothes, I will be made well.” 29 Immediately her hemorrhage stopped; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. 30 Immediately aware that power had gone forth from him, Jesus turned about in the crowd and said, “Who touched my clothes?” 31 And his disciples said to him, “You see the crowd pressing in on you; how can you say, ‘Who touched me?’” 32 He looked all around to see who had done it. 33 But the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came in fear and trembling, fell down before him, and told him the whole truth. 34 He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”
35 While he was still speaking, some people came from the leader’s house to say, “Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the teacher any further?” 36 But overhearing[b] what they said, Jesus said to the leader of the synagogue, “Do not fear, only believe.” 37 He allowed no one to follow him except Peter, James, and John, the brother of James. 38 When they came to the house of the leader of the synagogue, he saw a commotion, people weeping and wailing loudly. 39 When he had entered, he said to them, “Why do you make a commotion and weep? The child is not dead but sleeping.” 40 And they laughed at him. Then he put them all outside, and took the child’s father and mother and those who were with him, and went in where the child was. 41 He took her by the hand and said to her, “Talitha cum,” which means, “Little girl, get up!” 42 And immediately the girl got up and began to walk about (she was twelve years of age). At this they were overcome with amazement. 43 He strictly ordered them that no one should know this, and told them to give her something to eat.
Interesting that the stories don’t quite track and do contradict each other. Was the child dead or at the point of death, which indicates she was still alive? We also do certainly have people laughing but at the silliness of someone claiming to be able to bring the dead back to life, not that healing was laughable. They laughed before they saw the healing, and I’m sure you would do the same if some non-Christian made the same claim of healing with no evidence. So you make a false claims already, Kate. We also have the strange contradiction between Mark and Matthew where one said that the report of this spread through the district, and in the other, where JC says that they were to tell about this to no one. Which is it, Kate? Which fairy tale shall we believe?
The reason that an imaginary character says something is because of what the author wants them to say. There is nothing to show that JC or this girl or her family ever existed much less that healing was done. You assume it was and then make a false claim that someone was healed. And you of course ignore every other instance where claims of healing were made and were no more than lies, and you ignore every prayer that was said in desperation and then ignored by your imaginary god, where there is no Christian that can be shown to be able to do miracles like JC supposedly did, as promised in Mark.
Christian Scientists are liars who make promises of healing, but when they are asked to heal someone, like the British boy who died from the genetic defect, they make excuses and run away despite the claims that Mary Baker Eddy made about curing cancers, tuberculosis, etc. They fail, and there is no reason to believe charlatans. You certainly have no “direct line” to ask any god and no one was healed. It’s just a story that is spread and costs people their lives, told by the ignorant and the gullible who are selfish and desperate for external validation.
Karen, you do seem to have an issue with admitting you are wrong. “Club/Vel”? Really, can’t possibly use my name? What a petty person you seem to be.
There is no reason to waste my time with baseless claims made by CS practitioners, Karen. I’ve read Eddy’s book, “Science and Health” that is touted as the end all and be all, so why would anything else be worthwhile? When the basic book of a religion fails, there is little reason to hear the excuses why it fails, especially from someone like you who ignores her religion when convenient. Again, Karen, why do you go to physicians when your religion says that isn’t necessary at all and that illness is an illusion? Your own words assure me that wasting time going to a lecture that speaks the same nonsense you do is not worth my time. I can simply go to the doctor just like you do!
All theists make the same claim, Karen, that if it didn’t work, why would they still be practicing? Well, it’s because a lot of people can’t accept that they are wrong and make excuses as you have by going to the doctor but insisting that it was your prayers that “really” healed you, again ignoring the hard work of doctors in favor of pretending that you have some magical method to be healed. Now, since you insist that I go to the lecture, tell me what he would say that would be different from what you have said? Surely there would be a difference, right? You are indeed a martyr to a religion, you just decide what to ignore and how you can explain away why you can just go ahead and act just like me.
Again, more baseless claims and no evidence. What kind of surgery leaves a “big gaping hole” in someone’s back, Karen? You give more anecdotes and still no evidence that any of your claims are true. You need to provide names, hospitals, medical records, etc. But you can’t. You whine about these supposed horrible things that happen from modern medicine (and be assured, screw-ups can happen) but then you use that modern medicine yourself with no problem. Such hypocrisy. And you don’t mention all of the screw-ups that Christian Science has caused, all the deaths that failed promises have caused. You want to point to failures in one things but do your best to hide and lie about failures of your religion. People do not blindly accept modern medicine, but surprise, it works the vast majority of the time. Your nonsense doesn’t. Yes, dear, hello? Do you realize how many people Christian Science has killed? If you are so concerned, why do you keep spreading your nonsense when it doesn’t work?
Oh wow, you found a post on a site that is full of baseless claims and expect me to believe it. Really, Karen? Do you not get the concept of evidence is needed to show that your claims are true? Ol’ “Snoop” here has nothing to show his claims are true. Not one scrap but golly, Karen will believe you as long as you agree with her nonsense. Now, funny how no prayers worked at all and the cancer patient died just as often as cancer patients do.
One doesn’t starve in two days, Karen, so why are you trying to lie to me about it posting these baseless claims? Why can’t you even give your own evidence for your own claims? There is no more reason to believe these stories than to believe you. You, and these people you quote, think they know more than doctors, and it’s pretty amusing that the one about liver cancer whines that surprise, once they found the cancer, then they did the tests to see how far it may have grown, which can indeed be into the colon, the lungs, etc if it metastasizes. You want to accept modern medicine but then attack it out of pure ignorance.
Doctors do rounds before visiting hours because they don’t want to bother the family. Are you really this stupid, Karen? All of your claims of some horrible conspiracy are nothing more than regular medical procedures, again medical procedures you have no problem with using,, unless of course it shows your religion to be a lie. You are a crank like so many conspiracy theorist and yep, you have no evidence for your claims, just like they do. And hmmm, if other treatments were going to work why all of the sudden your quote about the liver cancer insist that nothing would work. Oh yes, ascites is just fluid built up in the abdomen. It can be treated by simply draining it away. So again, we see someone who is ignorant about medicine making a false claims that “not a single procedure they proposed was going to in any way treat or palliate” the condition.
Again, Karen, we have you trying to spread false information in order to make your baseless claims sound more palatable. What is your excuse?
Do you think I need to say more after the responses from my friends?
Your insight is always welcome 🙂
Makagutu – Oh gosh no. Don’t ever feel like you ever have to read or respond to any of my stuff. Since the Club seemed to be asking for experiences people have had with Christian Science healing, I thought I’d share my experiences. But, of course, no one is ever obligated to actually listen to other people, or try to see a new perspective, or maybe learn something new. No one is ever obligated to face and progress beyond his own biases, bigotry, and prejudices. This is America, after all. We’re all allowed our prejudices here. 🙂
Life bless you.
The children who suffer and die from treatable diseases and injuries because some people believe prayer is sufficient are not produced from the “biases, bigotry, and prejudices” of those who criticize CS for promoting and inflicting an appalling ignorance. These victims are produced by you, by people who do not ‘believe’ in materia medica. That belief kills. And you want to pretend it’s reasonable, simply a “new perspective,” a means for other to ‘learn’ something new.
No, it’s not.
Your belief in this matter is an appalling ignorance that when put into practice kills real people in real life needlessly in the name of your piety. It’s unconscionable stupidity.
For a person who believed sickness is an illusion, telling me she lived to be 90 is ridiculous. Many people have lived past that age without such a silly belief. Additionally for one who believed they had a direct line with god, they died to early. I would think she would have tried to match Methusellah.
Your snarky post is expected. The problem with your claims is that you offer nothing new at all. All you have claimed is the same stuff that theists have claimed for thousands of years and still have no evidence for. We do actually listen to your claims but when they are nothing new and you can’t show that they happened at all, there is no new perspective to see and nothing at all new to learn. We already know there is no reason to believe someone who has no evidence to support her claims, just as if you claimed fairies were real or the illuminati controlled the earth. Your religion is no more true than Hinduism where claims of healing, and weeping gods abound or any other religion. I’m still waiting for your evidence. Surely you have some, right? Or is this just like Mary Baker Eddy who also had no evidence? She claimed to heal cancer so bad veins were sticking out, TB that was end stage, etc. Where are the amputees healed by CS, Karen? Why can’t your practioners do what Eddy promised?
Reality is what is prejudiced against you, by it showing that your claims are nonsense. You of course try to pull the martyr card, trying your best to attack others when they show there is no reason to believe you or to consider you special because you try to claim to know something special and secret about the universe. There is no bias, bigotry or predjudice to hold you accountable for your claims and to point out when you make false ones.
Now, Karen, as you could see on my blog post, assuming you actually read it and didn’t just assume you could answer me, we have this problem where CS practitioners were unable OR unwilling to heal a dying child when I asked them to. Now why did this child die if your claims of healing are true, Karen? Or will you ignore this question too because it demonstrates how entirely unpleasant and untrue your religion is?
Not to mention dangerous to all of us (think preventable outbreaks like measles) and directly fatal to some. It’s not a question of some vague god-is-love belief; it’s a question of an intentional disregard for public health and, therefore, criminal culpability.
Yes, why are the hospitals full?
Because people aren’t putting the crucifix in the right orifice. Don’t you know how Christian Science works? You have to turn the crucifix upside down and then push it up your nostril. Then you have to keep pushing, and pushing. If you push hard enough, at one point you’ll stop feeling pain.
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I see Jesus!
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heh. I will have to admit, when I saw crucifix and orifice, I had a hell of a flashback to when I read The Exorcist. Yuck. 🙂
These people do act as if they’ve had lobotomies. This is the answer to my poor little CS when he couldn’t provide any evidence or heal that child in England: “Wow.
Best wishes for peace, harmony, and happiness.
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well, when the answer from the CS is “Wow.
Best wishes for peace, harmony, and happiness.
C Palenz ”
you know why.
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more claims and of course no evidence offered by my corrrespondent: “When one of our sons was fourteen, he saw how realizing what God would not say to His child can lead to healing. He was high jumping and fell, with obvious evidence of a broken arm. A coach ran out to attend to him and told my son to stay still while he got a vehicle to transport him.
As our son lay on the ground, he closed his eyes and turned to God in prayer. He said his prayer began something like this: “God, what am I supposed to think?” The message immediately came: “You know I didn’t do that.”
To our son, that was a response to his prayer. So he reasoned, “If God wouldn’t say I am hurt, nor cause such a thing, what would He say?” The answer came that he couldn’t ever be separated from the spiritual perfection God made him to reflect.
The next day, a surgeon’s X-ray showed that while two bones in our son’s arm had been severely broken in several places, all the fractures had been perfectly set and were rapidly healing. No surgery was required. The surgeon remarked that he didn’t know anyone who could have set all the fragments like that.” https://journal.christianscience.com/shared/view/1uexsnecxm0?s=e
hmmm, what hospital? What’s the surgeon’s name? Where are the xrays?
It’s a shame that people are so very very gullible and who have no problem lying to others.
Hi, Club Schadenfreude –
Now and then I’ve been asked to share evidence and proof of “God.” Now, for me, “God” is not a supernatural anthropomorphic being who throws thunderbolts from the heavens and sometimes chooses to help us and sometimes chooses to not. For me “God” is supremely natural – simply another name for Love, Truth, and Life – the power of Good. And I experience healing by drawing close to Love – by filling my thoughts up with Love, joy, hope, and courage, and so on. Here are some of the healings I’ve experienced:
– I witnessed my little brother healed of doctor-diagnosed mastoiditus when he was 7 – the doctor said he was a “very sick boy” and might lose his hearing, would probably need surgery – and might even die – but none of that happened. When my mom got home she called a CS practitioner. That night – and I still remember this part very clearly – I could hear my little brother screaming in pain one moment, and the next he was snoring. Healing confirmed by the medical doctor the next day. That kind of thing is hard to ignore, discount, or forget once you’ve seen it.
– A couple years ago my optometrist found a melanoma on my eyelid – he showed me a picture of it and had me set up an appointment with a surgeon right then. I was scared –
and when I get scared I start cracking jokes – I had the surgeon’s receptionist cracking up on the other end of the line. Being able to laugh at the thing that scared me was really helpful to me. I felt the fear lift, and as I left the optometrist’s office I felt sort of buoyed up with joy and hope. I felt like I was in a bubble of Love. Which… that probably sounds weird… but that’s what I felt. I went to the eye surgeon two weeks later. He kept getting out stronger lenses to look at my eye. He wasn’t sure, for a while, if he was even looking at the right eye. Finally took a random clip of my skin where the melanoma should have been, and sent it out for testing. It, of course, came back negative.
– After my hand inflated to twice its normal size, I went to the family doctor. The doctor told me I probably either had a serious infection or rheumatoid arthritis. The doctor sent me in for blood tests. The doctor suggested I start taking drugs – one for a possible infection, one for RA. I declined the drugs – told him I’d make that decision once we knew better what we were dealing with – and went home to call a CS practitioner for prayerful support. By the third morning my hand had completely deflated and I was fine. The blood tests came back. One of the markers indicated rheumatoid arthritis. They wanted to set me up with an RA specialist, but I told the nurse I was fine. She was shocked and said that she guessed I didn’t need to do anything else right then, but to let them know if the symptoms appeared again. That was six years ago. No return of the condition.
– I was taken to the OR to have an emergency c-section with my second son. I asked my mom to call a CS practitioner for support. Just before they were going to slice me open, the surgical team got surprised looks on their faces, and starting telling me to push. The baby was born naturally. One of the OR nurses was crying because it was all so beautiful, and she’d never been able to see a natural delivery before. The midwife told me they don’t know what happened. It was a surprise to all of them.
The response I get from friends after I share these experiences is really fascinating to me. Some friends – those who are open to the evidence I share with them, will celebrate and rejoice with me. But there are others – often friends who were raised as children with a different kind of a “God” than mine and rebelled against that thunderbolt-throwing god (and who can blame them?) – who seem unable to accept what I’m sharing.
I’m told by these friends that I can’t just go around making up my own definition for “God.” I tell them I didn’t come up with this concept of God on my own and that it’s not a new concept – that in the Bible we’re told “God is love” (I John 4) and that as far back as the late 19th century Mary Baker Eddy listed these synonyms for God – “Principle, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Life, Truth, Love.”
Okay, but these healings are not proofs of a supernatural being, these friends tell me – my body would have healed itself naturally, anyway. I agree with them – as Mary Baker Eddy writes in the Christian Science textbook, Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures: “Now, as then, these mighty works (healings) are not supernatural, but supremely natural.” Later she writes, “God is natural good… Truth should not seem so surprising and unnatural as error, and error should not seem so real as truth. Sickness should not seem so real as health.”
At this point my friends will often tell me that, although I am, of course, a very nice person, I’m also completely cracked to trust my health to this power of good, rather than depending on the laboratory-tested workings of medical science.
Ahem. Soooo… do I go there or do I not? If I go there…
I might point out that, according to the American Medical Association, traditional medical health care is the third-leading cause of death in this country. I might share the countless stories of people who have died from medical treatment, rather than the original malady that brought them to the medical doctors. I might point out ta Newsweek story about the unsafe care Americans receive in our nation’s hospitals. Author Marty Makary writes: “Bad doctors. Prescription errors. Surgical slips. Medical mistakes injure or kill hundreds of thousands of Americans every year… When I was a medical student medical science began to seem as dangerous and dishonest as it was miraculous and precise. The defining moment came when I saw a sweet old lady I cared about die after a procedure she didn’t need and didn’t want.” (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/09/16/are-hospitals-less-safe-than-we-think.html) I might point out all the side effects (nausea, vomiting, dry mouth, depression, thoughts of suicide, weight gain, liver damage, heart attacks, death) listed on those drug commercials we’re all familiar with on television don’t instill in me an urgent desire to race to the nearest pharmacy. And then I might ask them, after all this, if it really seems logical or reasonable to question the sanity of thinking people who choose not to see medical science as the panacea for their health challenges.
But because my world view is so different from theirs, these friends often experience a “cognitive dissonance” – an inability to recognize the healings I’ve experienced through my understanding of the power of God, Good, and the flaws in the system that they’ve come to depend on. The idea of not turning, first, to medical science and, instead, trusting in the power of Love, Truth, and Life, is so foreign and alien that they simply can’t seem to grasp the idea of it, or to acknowledge my healings as proof of God.
I am not averse to visiting optometrists, dentists, and doctors when I feel the need to do so – I have no worries about being ex-communicated from my church or raising the wrath of God or anything – and I’m grateful for my doctors’ training, intelligence, and humor (all my doctors have a sense of humor – it is one of my requirements). But I have also proven, for myself, the constant, unchanging power of God when I’m able to draw near to Love and Truth – and I have found this power to be a dependable and effective one in my life.
Well, I think the facts speak for themselves: you are worthy of god’s love far, far more than the 21 children who died while you read this, 17 of whom died from either diarrhoea, malaria, neonatal infection, pneumonia, preterm delivery, or lack of oxygen at birth… all of which can occur if treated by prayer alone – even the right kind – rather than real medicine.
Gosh, if only someone had called the CS ‘practitioner’ for the 34 kids who just died… because God needs a ‘practitioner’ from CS to know about spreading the love, obviously.
Good grief. Do you even hear yourself or think about what it is you’re really saying? The self-absorbed arrogance – which is what makes you really special – is just astounding.
for many theists, that self-absorbed arrogance, and a terribly selfishness, is all they get from religion.
Because they’re special, you see, although they know they really shouldn’t be and won’t claim it outright but, you know, God has chosen them even though they’re not worthy, but, hey, if God says so, then, well…
Oh the humbleness. To be so very special to the Creator of the Universe, no less. Not to themselves. Not to advertise, of course, but so very, very special nonetheless. Not their choice at all, you see. God’s. And who can argue… unless they’re just jealous, of course.
The arrogance and victim-blaming (rarely spoken straight up but understood to be present in every CS ‘testimony’ that fails to ‘earn’ God’s love) is reprehensible. And yes, children die because of this kind of self-promoting hubris.
You may call me Vel. Club Schadenfreude is the name of my blog.
Your claims are simply unsupported anecdotes, just like every other claim by a Christian Scientist as I demonstrated in my blog post. Now, you expect me to believe them, but I’m guessing you’d never accept the same claims from someone of a different sect or religion that made the same claim that their prayers or spells to whatever gods healed them.
You also make the same nonsense claims about what you think your “God” is as many other theists. You don’t want the inconvenience of the god in the bible with its repeated failures so you make up one of your own that is supposedly “love truth and life” but again have no evidence that this entity exists or that it does anything at all. If this is the power of Good, then why does it fail so much and let people die, Karen? What excuse will you give when CS fails as it has repeatedly and people die? Will you try to blame the victim, playing pretend that it was their fault for not praying in the “right” way or not believing “enough”? Did they not draw close “enough” to Love? It’s also quite sad that you try to impugn that others aren’t thinking of love, joy hope and courage.
Mastoiditis is treated by antibiotics. I know because I had it and my eardrum burst thanks to it, which suddenly reduced the pain. I’m guessing that if this happened at all, since you went to a doctor, and not just to a CS practitioner right off, your brother got antibiotics. If this is true, then you should be able to give me the name of the physician and I could contact them. Certainly they would remember such a supposedly miraculous healing. But funny how these supposed miracles are never touted and no medical records can be found nor any statement by a physician. I would also point out that you saw nothing if you only heard your brother screaming and then he was snoring.
One diagnoses a melanoma by a biopsy, not a picture, as you know. Other people also use humor to relieve fear. Nothing is special about this. Again, where is this picture, who was the surgeon and who was the optometrist? Moles come and go, so again, nothing to show your claim is true.
Again, it seems you go to the doctor with no problem, get treated and then attribute everything to your magic. Why don’t you just call up the CS practioner, Karen? Why bother going to a physician if you are so sure your magic works? And why doesn’t this magic work immediately as it should? Most ailments do clear up on their own in a few days. It seems your “Love” is nothing more than coincidence. I’ve also had the RA test done when I was around 12 and had painful hands and while it came back up mildly positive for RA, I’ve never had RA.
If they were just about to slice you open for a c-section, then you would have been under anesthesia and would not have seen these supposed surprised faces. You would not have heard them tell you to push. You would not have seen anyone crying nor saying it was all so beautiful. If they weren’t just about to slice you open, then your story is false and it is no surprise that women can give birth naturally even if they were scheduled for a c-section.
Your evidence is not evidence at all, Karen. All you have are unsupported claims. Evidence would be testimony from a physician, giving the name of the physician, photos, and medical records. I am open to evidence and expect you to provide some if you think I should believe you.
You also repeat that sad old claim that people rebel against some god and that is made only to make yourself feel superior. Perhaps some atheists got disgusted with the false claims about a god, but most of us don’t believe because theists have no evidence for their claims, as you do not. There is no evidence to show that anyone is healed by any god, and plenty of evidence that people die because they believe the false claims spread by you and others. Robyn Twitchell, Shauntay Walker, Andrew Wantland, Ashley King, Ian Lundman, etc have died because your claims fail and fail and fail. The CS church released a supposed “study” that claimed that their prayers worked, but funny how they never could produce the data where they succeeded or where they failed.
You may want to read this: https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/unbound/flashbks/xsci/suffer.htm to see just how badly people have suffered from the false claims of CS.
People have made up their own gods for years, Karen, and yep, back in the bible and in the 19th century when Mary Baker Eddy made up her own and invented her own religion.
I find it amusing when you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to claim that the magic spells invented by Eddy work but heck, natural healing works too. And there is no way for you to show a difference.
I know you are not a nice person because you spread nonsense. It is no surprise that you try to bastardize actual research with your false claims. The AMA did not say that “traditional medical health care is the third-leading cause of death in this country”. There was a report that medical errors were, and that report was done by these folks: http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139 There was also a commentary, in the JAMA by Dr. Barbara Starfield http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/192908 which points out the complicated nature of medical error. Medical error is not the same as medical care. It is a shame that you would choose to misrepresent information, but I am used to that since creationists to this all of the time. It’s also pretty amusing that you avail yourself of this medical care constantly and never seem to only go for a CS prayer.
I also happen to know quite a bit about medical error since I work for a state agency that regulates hospitals and nursing homes and we see the results of errors all of the time.
As for the side effects of medicine, yep there are quite a few. However, they work and have evidence. CS has no evidence that it works at all. Again, Karen, you go to the doctor. Why if you claim it is so bad? All I see is a hypocrite.
Your supposed friends don’t experience cognitive dissonance, they simply don’t believe in things with no evidence, just like you don’t believe the claims of other people. Not even you turn to your CS prayers first by your own stories. Yep, you have no problem in visiting doctors and then claiming that they are wrong. That’s the excuse you make for yourself so you can do whatever you want and still cling to your religion. It is this pious nonsense that makes me disgusted with so many theists, when you want to attack something but then avail yourself of it when convenient.
Your claims fail as much as the claims of someone who went to Lourdes, someone who had one of the evangelical pastors supposedly heal them like John Hagee,, Peter Popoff or Benny Hinn or someone who had a reiki practioner balance their energy. Indeed you use the same tactics they do for trying to claim their healings were real.
I Read your article and would like to bring a few things to your attention. I am aware of the certain aloofness that Christian Science and its adherents may have to people outside their church but there are a few assertions made here that are a bit editorially sensational on your part.
Firstly- illness is not an illusion in the wordy sense . In Christian Science, they base their understanding of illness and other ailments of man from the standpoint that God in Genesis Chapter One made man in His image and likeness , good. No sickness , death etc constituted his being in Genesis Chapter One and Christian Science aims to affirm this. Christian Science is aware of the man in Chapter 2 who sinned and this is acknowledged however did not Jesus Christ come to tell his followers that you must “be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is’ and so forth. Did he not also say that “ye will perform these works and greater ” . Christian Science again aims to assert this too.Whether you are a Christian or not -these words have been said in theological texts and therefore are sacred to Christians just as the Vedas are sacred to the Hindus and the Qu’ran to the Muslims.
When it comes to healing the masses, again , Christian Science does not discriminate and it has been shown that those not receptive in the 10 Beatitudes sense may not receive but that does not mean they can not. As Jesus Christ said in the New Testament- ‘seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things shall be added onto you” is in the same vein .What good is water to someone who does not need it or think they need it? We were given dominion and free will and it is no ones right to infringe on it. Just look at Mother Teresa and the Dalai Lama. In their own sense – they echoed these sentiments too. This is why it looks like they may not ‘heal’ masses .However Christian Scientists always aim to give a ‘cup of cold water in Christian service” and I understand how this sense may have been lost to human sense.
I see your frustration but your citations have not been given any context to what the aim seems to be in the writers sense. The Bible is supreme in true Christian Science and your quotations must be cited with the Bible too. I hope you see what I mean.
As for my context in writing this – I am a deeply spiritual person who has read all various texts deemed spiritual by man including the Science & Health and the Prose Works. I personally do not subscribe to religion as I believe man kind has thwarted its use in war gains, exploitation and subjugation of man kind . I do however believe in an omnipotent Creator and his Love.
It is not any “aloofness” of Christian science, but their outright lies and failed claims that I find disgusting. Now, please do explain why the CS who have comment on my blog were unable to cure a dying child when I requested it. Why would *you* choose to let a child die if you had the magical power to save them?
I’ve read the claims by Eddy, and she made claims that were lies and got people hurt. She claimed illness was illusion and your attempt to try to rewrite what she said to excuse her is curious at best. Her claims were indeed in the “wordy sense” which I assume you mean by the actual definition that people use so they can understand each other.
Christians, Scientists or not, can’t agree on what their bible means, and have hated each other for years over it. This god had a hissy fit in Genesis and condemned humanity because it was too stupid to either keep an evil force out of its garden, or was evil itself and allowed a nigh unto omnipotent being, the second strongest in the universe, in with ignorant beings that it decreed be that way.
Yep, JC did indeed say that a believer could perform works like his and greater. Can you? The problem is that there is no evidence for this at all, only lies that Christian Scientists tell to get people killed. I’ve asked Christian Scientists to perform the miracles they claim they can do. And what happens, yep, the people simply die, no magic happening at all.
I’m sure you’ll make up some excuse why you and all of those others fail. Those claims of being able to do magical healing are just lies, and it’s sad that so many Christians, including Christian Scientists, have to be so ignorant and so pathetically selfish that they keep spreading such lies just so they can feel special.
Christian scientists use the same excuses as any other charlatan healers. It’s always the fault of the sick person, not the liar who claims to be able to heal. Oh darn, they just didn’t believe “enough”, isn’t that convenient? It’s disgusting that you would claim this when often it is children who are the victims of your lies, for children believe more purely than anyone.
And it is pure bullshit that the bible ever says anything about “free will”. That is something invented by Christians who want to excuse their and their god’s failures. The bible states that this god allows people to accept it by a whim, and prevents others from doing the same, though no fault of their own (Romans 9). This god repeatedly controls people’s minds, from the pharaoh to the Egyptians that had their wealth stolen from them. This god sends lying spirits intentionally to make them believe something wrong and then gets its jollies by destroying them. And finally, in Revelation, we have this god working with Satan intentionally. This god, after murdering all non-Christians, intentionally frees Satan to intentionally corrupt more people, those good believers that Christ and the apostles ruled over for an aeon. You might want to read your bible rather than just accept being told what it says.
Christian Scientists heal *no one*. There is no evidence and plenty of dead children that can show this. You may consider yourself a “deeply spiritual” person but so does everyone else who claims to be a believer. You just can’t do what you promise, for if you could, then the VA and childrens’ hospitals would be empty. You want to be considered special, that you know some secret to the universe. But funny how most of you just use the same modern medicine that I do, and show that you are just hypocrites with no magical powers at all.
You claim to know the “Context’ of the quotes I’ve cited. Well, fo, then explain this context, and show how I’m wrong. If you can’t, then you are just one more Christian who makes a claim and hopes that someone just believes you with no evidence whatsoever. And if you can’t heal anyone, then your claims are simply nonsense . You might also explain why Christians who drink poison and who get envenomed just die like everyone else, no magic saves their lives. Will your excuse be that they weren’t “TrueChristians™”?
You subscribe to religion as much as any other theist. You just run away from the word since you don’t want the baggage of the failures of religion, which applies to yours too.
I’d be happy to see you heal someone, fo. I’ll even meet you with a camera crew to tape the whole thing. I want to see an amputee in a VA hospital or a children’s hospital regrow a limb if this is just illusion as Eddy claimed. Surely, you can do that, right?
I’m waiting for your response and evidence. IF you have none, then please explain why should I believe you any more than every other theists who has made the same claims you do, and who has failed to show that their claims were true, to the point even you don’t believe them either.
Thank you for your reply and insight. I greatly appreciate it.I hope this reply is not too late . I was obtaining permission from people to recount their accounts.
As I write and form my reply – I would like to ask a personal favour that if you oblige- I would be greatly honoured. May you please look at this response as something of my own personal experience without the connotations and thought boxes of “religion” , ‘Christian Science” or “spirituality. ” I will do likewise as this will ensure justice to the discourse.
As for the question first question posed to me when you asked if *I* would let a child die. The answer is no I would not and before I divulge – may I add some personal context.
I have a younger sister who went to a sleep over at her cousins house and came back home with the signs of chicken pox.( if you wish to corroborate with her- you are quite welcome to) Upon later investigation , we found out that indeed one of my cousins was recovering from the disease that my sister unfortunately contracted. She was greatly under the weather and was displaying subtle signs of the disease. I was greatly worried. She later went to sleep and without telling anyone – I took up my personal Bible and went to study it. I read the passage that consisted of Jesus talking about how one needs to have faith as great as a mustard seed and that he can move mountains with such conviction. I pondered on it and took it to mean that I myself need a personal truth to exemplify in this manner. This reminded me of a citation in Science & Health where Mrs Eddy says that “just as a drop of water is one with ocean so is man with God.” Again- I did some more pondering and turned all this inside out, upside down until I was satisfied .
My sister later woke up and proceeded to watch The Regular Show on the Cartoon Network. My mother came back home surprised to see my sister’s mood changed . My mother asked if she was feeling better to which my sister replied that she thinks she was just tired and that she was fine in that moment. Towards the week end – we found out that the cousin had chicken pox and my sister clicked and realised that she was suffering from it the previous week. I later divulged to her the personal “reading” I had undertaken and she was greatly moved and expressed deep gratitude.With the permission of my sister – I can tell you that she never had full blown chicken pox . She is alive . She is well.
Did I heal her ? Christian Scientists will say I did but I think the affirmation of a great truth already there with nothing of my doing made her whole .
In regards to the “magical power” I think otherwise. I believe that these things are supremely natural .
As for the assertion that I attempted to ‘rewrite’ Mrs Eddy -you may have it . However I will stand by my understanding of her works that has worked out for the good for me. In terms of the ‘wordy’ sense – I say that to stress the importance of demonstration and not just words and claims . Everything to me must be proven and demonstrated to be true.
I find that Christian Scientists here in Africa (as that is my context ) actually universally asseverate the goodness of Genesis Chapter 1 and they all weirdly discount Genesis Chapter 2 as an allegory though I am on the fence about that personally. So this statement is not my reality however with different sects of Christianity -this is very true. “Christians, Scientists or not, can’t agree on what their bible means, and have hated each other for years over it”. They also say that the God in the Old Testament is a Jehovalistic God in keeping up with Mrs Eddy’s sayings. And this seems to be unanimous from the depths of Southern Africa to the Horn.
In terms of the “making up for excuses” well I have not failed . The Zimbabwean and Zambian Christian Scientists have not . They do wonderful works and go to the orphanages to spread their healing message. There’s this account of a Christian Scientist (I have obtained his permission to recount this) whom was walking down the street with his wife who is non Christian Scientist and an omnibus was speeding heavily across whilst a young girl was just turning the bend . Anyone who could see from behind the bend were sure a calamity was sure to ensue. However this man ( the Christian Scientist) apparently discounted that any harm can constitute this young girl. She did get hit but she got up and proceeded as if nothing happened to her. Everyone was of course amazed and the wife later asked him if he had anything to do with it and he simply said- “its the acknowledgement of God’s kingdom.” The branch Church of First Church of Christ , Scientist , Harare , Zimbabwe has made it their mission to spread their healing message in the country and they employed a camera crew too. I will obtain the videos as evidence to satisfy you.
As for the comment of the charlatan healers- this seems to be a subjective approach and I will not delve in fear of sounding disrespectful of the experience , experienced. It is my aim to always dignify experiences and in that vein all I can convey is sympathy and that I am sorry. You have put it quite aptly. It is disgusting that those Christian Scientists say its the fault of the sick and quite frankly – they are the wrong ones.It is no fault of the sick.I am actually ticked off that that has been said. I agree wholeheartedly with this statement of yours “…for children believe more purely than anyone.”However if I may digress – I find that the Christian Scientists in America are curious at best. Very cold and shifty in my personal experience.
In regards to the the “free will ” that you contested – I asseverate that I meant the dominion that man was divinely promised in Genesis where man was given dominion over the fish of the seas and the birds of air etc.. The reiteration in the New Testament to work out your own salvation and the allusions that Jesus gave in his various parables like the one of separating the wheat from the tares.In terms of the excuse for the ‘barbaric’ acts of God in the Old Testament; well that is a theological discussion .We know God because of man and man knows God because of creation. These two are interlinked and can not be spoken of empirically as mutually exclusive. Man in the Old Testament especially the man accounted for by Moses in Genesis as he wrote the whole book – were simply put : not very good. This here is a situation of cause and effect and the fundamental laws of the universe as stated by Sir Isaac Newton in his third law of physics states that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. The actions of the world are not and have quantum never been exempt from this law. I expect to hear a resounding rebuttal on this one.
As for the Romans 9 you cited- I have personally been pondering this for myself lately. I have wondered why did Jesus thank God for the son of perdition to betray him and if so why did he not stop him? Would that not lead to Jesus and his heavenly Father leaving an opening for man to sin? What about the story of Job where God and Satan made a bet ? Even more curious the Children of Israel taking forty years to cross a stretch of land that could have been done in two weeks . With breaks and all. That heavenly war with Lucifer being a former angel then thrown out?The whole account of the Book of Revelation by the only apostle not martyred ? Suppose he was suffering from PTSD as all his comrades were dead ? And the icing of the cake – THAT tree in the Garden.Surely you can not say that low blow of assumption statement you so pompously made -“You might want to read your bible rather than just accept being told what it says.”
As I have divulged at this point- I’m sure you can ascertain that I do not agree that “Christian Scientists heal *no one*. ” The ones you know may not but not what I have seen and personally have done for myself. I will say no more of the matter.
As for having “secrets of the world” it is no secret of mine.The Bible as far as I know is free scripture. You can go to any synagogue and get the Talmud or any Hindu Temple and talk about the Vedas . There are Buddhists too that are willing to converse. These ” secrets” are not only exclusive to Christians and Christian Scientists and those that claim otherwise are intolerant bigots that you should not even be dignified in speech or writing .
As for the remaining three paragraphs – for my personal sanctity I will not dignify your discourse that veered on pettiness and guilt tripping with the talk of dead children. I am from Africa and I SEE DEAD CHILDREN EVERYDAY .I always help whenever I can. There are so many accounts of healing and humanitarian work I have done in the name of goodness that it would take a PDF to list. My family and friends are all very closely related with the Zimbabwean Red Cross Society , Nyaradzo Chldren’s Home etc. They are mostly Christian Scientists and yes – they appear in local newspapers .
As for me “running away from religion” I have a very personal empirical account. My education in theology and quantum physics and the inconsistencies in religion have informed this standpoint. I have come to see that only that which can be demonstrated is the only truth. I suppose that is why I am drawn to Christian Science. Its very name states demonstration.
I can personally guarantee the validity of the claims written. If I had an Affidavit -I would sign it in a heartbeat. Please let me know which channels would be most suitable for you to receive my evidence.
well, let’s first discuss what you consider evidence. What would you accept as evidence for another religion’s claims? I’ve run into very many believers who don’t understand what evidence consists of, and a discussion can go awry very quickly if we don’t share the same understanding. I’m a bit busy today thanks to real life, but I’ll respond to your other post as soon as I can.
this essay by Carl Sagan might help you understand how I consider claims: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm
May this find you well..
Okay – I appreciate this empirical and fair approach.
Well- I consider “evidence” generally speaking to be a visible sign of something proposed. Something that definitively shows that something exists or is true and even better ,when it does both. And for the law student in me- evidence is material that is presented to the court to help find the truth about something.
As for the other question- “What would you accept as evidence for another religion’s claims?” I would say all the above demonstrated fully and is conclusive with your aim and hypotheses and is carried out to concur with your claim and therefore conclude.Aim could be to be one with God so to speak and the hypotheses would be to carry out the instructions listed by Prophet Mohammed to be good and submissive . Conclusion would be after following the hypotheses ,one comes to see that indeed one is loving , just and reflects their Maker. Unfortunately this is not always the case in the name of religion.Religion is curiously subjective. However yes- that is what is evidence.
Or even better yet and what I feel comfortable with- when one carries out the aim and hypotheses fully and goes to the doctor and finds their disease completely gone – a disease that was seen with scans and medical equipment and such. That is pure evidence because evidence is only reputable when it concurrently annihilates another factor.
Thank you for the link of the Carl Sagan essay. I am vividly informed by your approach to claims .He and Neil de Grasse Tyson are personal heroes of my little sister who wants to be an astrophysicist. I feel like I know them as she always recounts her obsession with me. Anyways – all that Sagan is saying is validating to the core. It is very true and substantiated . He gives a prime example of the many delusions of the world.
I think I’may’ agree with you in your vein of thinking more than you would care to admit. My responses can be your “evidence” and if you disagree- please indulge me on how.
Have a pleasant day ..
It’s never too late to reply. I don’t expect anyone to drop real life just to chat online. Feel free to correspond when you like.
I don’t quite understand what you want me to do when you ask that I look at your claims without considering the terms religion, Christian Science or spirituality. You have used those terms yourself in describing yourself and what you believe. What would I gain by ignoring your own words? I am familiar with theists who do not want to be held to those words because those words require the theist to use terms familiar with others and recognize that those terms have baggage thanks to the actions of theists. I’ve noted that many theists have gone to a much vaguer religion since their religions are fraught with questionable actions by their supposed gods and their fellow believers.
I am glad that you would not let a child die if you could stop it. However, that is what the Christian Scientists have done, either by not using their supposed magical power to heal if those power exist, or their lies about such powers if they do not exist. As you can see above, I asked the participating Christian Scientists to heal the poor child in England who was going to die because of a genetic defect. Christian Science claims to be able to heal from a distance, and to heal horrifying illnesses and disease, per Ms. Eddy. Charlie, the child, died. If I am to believe in your claims, you would need to explain why.
What are the “signs” of chicken pox, Fo? You want to claim “subtle signs”, but what does that actually mean? Per the CDC, it takes at least 12 days after infection to symptoms. Many children do not have any other symptom than the rash, and those who do have a fever/malaise present that a day or two before the rash. Your story doesn’t match with the facts about chicken pox.
I am familiar with the mustard seed story in the bible; I actually had a necklace with a mustard seed in it when I was a Christian. Considering that prayer fails constantly, there is no evidence that faith, the size of a mustard seed or not, works. This is again a theist’s attempt to blame the believer, not the god.
Your claim of healing doesn’t work with how chicken pox actually works. There is no evidence that your sister ever had chicken pox at all or of any “great truth” as you try to claim. Now, have you tried your healing with someone who is demonstrably sick? How about someone with cancer or an amputee? Also, very few people ever die of chicken pox, so plenty of people are alive and well after having it, including myself. Your claims are very much the same of any other supposed supernatural healer, who claimed to have healed people but not from diseases that they can show existed prior to the supposed healing, and these healings are always for illnesses that no one can see.
There is nothing “natural” about these healings because they cannot be shown to have occurred in the first place. Eddy claimed this “After my discovery of Christian Science, I healed consumption in the last stages, a case which the M.D.’s, by verdict of the stethoscope and the schools, had declared incurable, because the lungs were mostly consumed. I healed malignant diphtheria and carious bones that could be dented by the finger, saving the limbs when the surgeon’s instruments were lying on the table ready for their amputation. I have healed at one visit a cancer that had eaten the flesh of the neck and exposed the jugular vein so that it stood out like a cord. I have physically restored sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, speech to the dumb, and have made the lame walk.” – New York Sun, December 16, 1898” And it is no surprise that she had no evidence of these supposed healings and that you and others sharing your believe also have no evidence. If these claims were true, then those who have these powers are either supremely selfish or they have no powers at all since there are still millions of people in hospitals and nursing homes.
I refer to the claims of theists for healing as magical powers because they are no different from the claims of spells of shamans or the prayers of any other religion. They require powers not found in nature.
Your standing by your claims is nothing surprising. All theists do the same, Fo, and all of you have no evidence to support those claims. You claim that demonstration is important. I agree. Why is it that no theist like you is willing to give a demonstration?
I also wonder, what do you consider “goodness”? In Genesis, we have a god that either intentnionally allows evil into the garden, or was too ignorant to know it was there. Is it good to allow someone who doesn’t understand good and evil to be exposed to it with no help? Genesis in its entirety is at best a metaphor since there is no evidence for any of the claims within it. The two creation stories don’t match, and there is nothing to show that any magical flood ever happened.
Like most believers, you have invented a religion in your own image. You pick and choose what you like about Christianity and Christian Science but ignore what isn’t appealing. You are a humane person so your religion reflects that.
The Zimbabwean and Zambian Christian Scientists have failed for they heal no one. They may go to orphanages but so do those of many other religions and those with no religion at all. You have no evidence for your claims about the girl who supposedly got hit by a bus. Looking at the history of Zimbabwe, your country has a horrible problem with AIDS. Now, where is the healing of that, so that many children don’t have to grow up without parents? The country has an awful child and mother mortality rate. Why is this the case if Christian Scientists can heal as Eddy claimed?
Evidence is not your personal claims, Fo. Evidence is something that is objective. A story passed from a believer to a believer is worthless. What is needed is medical records, a witness who was not a believer, etc. Your personal affadavit only tells me that you believe the story, nothing more. A video can be evidence but it must show details. You well know that videos can be faked.
Many theists claim experience of healing, however, each religoin doesn’t believe in the healing of the other religions. As I have asked before, what evidence would you accept that a religion that you do not believe in has done healings? You have made comments about American Christian Scientists as “very cold and shifty”. Does this mean you doubt their claims of healing? If so why, since their claims are the same as yours?
You may asservate what you will but free will is not this god giving dominion over the earth to humans, that is something else entirely. Free will means that god would allow humans to make decisions free of its influence and the bible repeatedly says that this god does not do this. Perhaps it is a problem in translation but there is no place in the bible where it says work out your own salvation.; if there is, please cite it. Jesus Christ says that this salvation is to be earned in only one way, acceptance of him as savior. He also says that the parables are intentionally meant to prevent some people from ever being able to accept him, which is not allowing for free will. Jesus and God indicate that some people will never be allowed to accept him and thus are damned through no fault of their own. Romans 9 also repeats this, and the interference of this god in both the OT and NT support this.
Most, if not all, religions claim that people should believe in their god because of what they see in the universe. However, they cannot how that their god is the creator god and that others are not, nor can they show a creator god is required.
Newton’s Third law has nothing to do with religion. It describes how matter interacts, and in some instances, it can be violated ( https://phys.org/news/2015-05-newton-law-broken.html ) . There is no evidence that Moses existed or wrote Genesis or any of the other books of the bible. To appeal to baseless myths does not consist of evidence either. Since we don’t have the evidence to show that the basic assumptions of your religion are true, there is no reason to base anything else on those assumptions.
I do not know where Jesus ever thanked God for the son of perdition to betray him. Can you cite that? I do know that the bible states that this betrayal was required by this god to give salvation to mankind, a bloody murder for no reason at all. The passion story in the bible is not consistent from gospel to gospel, with JC wondering why he was betrayed by this god in one, and in the Gospel of John, having no problem with it. Romans 9 has that this god intentionally damns some people and allows some people to believe, showing that there is no free will. The story of Job is also indeed curious since this god allowed people to be murdered for no more reason than a bet, but then admits he was wrong and gives Job a new family, as if that would make him feel better after this god allowed his first family to be killed. Would you accept such a “gift”, Fo, in place of your original family?
And yes, the exodus makes no sense and there is no evidence it ever happened at all. All current archaeology shows it to be a story, nothing true. The book of Revelation was not written by an apostle, there is no evidence for that at all, and plenty that it was written long after any date claimed as the dates Jesus or his supposed apostles existed.
The bible is indeed free, one of my favorite websites is biblegateway.com because it shows how many different versions there are of it. I can indeed also get the talmud, the vedas, the books of the Zoroastrian faith, etc, and out of all of them, none of them has any evidence that their gods exist or that any miracles have been done by them.
I am not surprised that you have nothing to show that your faith does what it claims. It is no surprise that you see dead children every day since your healing doesn’t work. If it did work, why would you be seeing all of these dead children, Fo? I’m sure you help where ever you can, just like any decent human being would, but that is your work, not some god’s. Read again what Eddy claimed that her believers should be able to do and then look at that next dead child.
What education do you have in quantum physics and theology, Fo? Do you have degrees? The name Christian Science means nothing since again, you cannot demonstrate that it works. Eddy used this term to try to get validation for her claims, but she could not and did not use the scientific method to show that her practices actually worked. She could not heal herself, nor can her followers heal anyone.
Thank you for offering me an affidavit, but again, that would only tell me you believe in something, not that this something happened.
I agree, evidence is a visible sign that something happened. Now, can you provide this for your claims? IF you ae a law student, then you know that a person’s claims don’t mean much at all without physical evidence to support them. Do you think your claims come up to that standard?
Per your claims and other religious believers, religion isn’t subjective at all if miracles do happen and the events of the holy books happened. There would be evidence that could be found. However, there is not. The actions of a believer are also not evidence for a god since most, if not all, religions claim that the actions of a believer reflects their maker and that is defined as good. But as you know, Christians don’t agree on what their god wants, and therefore we have no idea who is accurately reflecting their maker, if any at all. For example, many African Christians hate and fear homosexuals, but many American Christians have no problem with homosexuals. Who is right? How can you demonstrate this?
Okay, now that we’ve established that you would accept medical records as evidence, that someone had a disease before and that the disease vanished, can you provide that evidence for your claims, Fo? If this was the case, Christian Scientists should be happy to provide this. They are not and have gone out of their way to refuse such information to the point of excluding it from a supposed research paper they wrote (mentioned above in my prior posts and blog post).
The above indicates why your personal claims are not evidence. I hope you might be able to provide some evidence for your claims. At this point, all we have are your claims about your “dragon”.
I would feel much comfortable replying to your latest message systematically, paragraph by paragraph , thought by thought as I did previously. However if I delve into that preferred discourse – I am afraid all we would accomplish is going round in circles and proliferating terms that have already been filled.
I am sorry to say -but I have given my evidence . My person and my experience is my evidence. How can I prove to you why was I born? How can I prove to you that I exist? The evidence you seek is a physical manifestation that I am afraid I have annihilated to nothingness.Clearly you do not trust any ‘theist’ as you put it. And its none of my business to convince you to believe me . Hence I said previously that I would say no more of the matter.I have broken my toe before and got x rays and with thought my toe went straight. I threw away my x rays because why do I want to be reminded of something that is not my reality? And you will believe this to be a cop out, that my toe was never broken or what not and like I have always asserted – you may have that sentiment.
As for the dragon that Carl Sagan illustrated – the dragon can only exist so long as it is in your reality. We cannot be intolerant of others realities as their are of their mind.Who are we but mere specks of dust in this vast multi verse to judge what a ‘theist’ ,’atheist’ or Scientologist believes . I hope I am not wrong that I am encountering in a discourse with an intelligent person that runs Club Schadenfraude. A club devoted to deriving pleasure from ones misfortune as that is what the word means. Schaden in German means ‘damage’ and “freude’ means joy.That is your reality. A reality of duality in the perversion of two words and sentiments. And that is how you connect in this multi verse therefore you too are no different from the Pentecostal who speaks in tongues in order to get to their Trinity. You believe this dragon does not exist. You are employing a belief none the less and your club is a system affiliating to that belief. This is why I asked you to remove the thought boxes affiliated with ‘spirituality’ religion and so forth because the very name of your platform suggests that a thought box is being vividly and illustriously employed by yourself.
And look – your reply is testament to this fact. You can not say anything after this that can suggest you are objective. You did not once ask why was this my experience , you were not inquisitive as to why this person who said they would swear by a legal document that this was their experience. I implore you to ponder the definition of ‘experience’- which is practical contact with and observation of facts or events. Nowhere in ‘experience’ does it say things about beliefs and claims.This is so curious since you affiliate your ideology to a man who was practical ,conscious, inquisitive and dare I say , scientific.
How is religion not subjective? The Roman Empire twisted Christianity to suit their interests. Jihadists who swear on terror twist the Qu’ran to justify their actions . How is this not subjective? How is this not subjective to their interpretations? Amazing and strange indeed that you- an avid opponent of theists does not agree. And no- you can not rebut with ‘miracles of the Bible” . We were talking of the various interpretations that come forth . You would make more sense if you faulted Jesus Christ himself with these various interpretations and laid all blame at his door.He did say that if the right hand sinneth then it must be cut of. Then hold him to it .
Again I have said that you must give me viable channels to forward this ‘evidence’. You seem to not want it since you do not quote me on my first message where I said the very same thing. However- now that I think of it you would discount it as you said ‘videos can be faked’ and the word experience goes over your schadenfreude outlook . So what do you propose we do? Are you objective like a judge in a court of law? Or schadenfreude so you can be content? Objectivity in a court of law states the one presumably the judge can employ reasonable outlook that evidence is conclusive with the facts observed and events that took place. I told you the various demonstrations so instead of saying we did not demonstrate instead say you do not believe . Do you actually think that billions of theists sit around making up stories and living delusions just so we can give you material. So billions of theists in this world are lying to you because of what ? I am all bewilderment.
How is you seeing a degree going to affect how you sleep at night . Be objective and see my qualifications or lack thereof of if that is what you believe manifested in my replies. May that be my testament to you.
I do not claim . I lived this . I will say no more as I fear repeating myself.
You have provided no evidence. You came here trying to convince me of your nonsense, and now that you have failed, you lie and you try to tell yourself that that wasn’t your intent at all. It is simply a lie that it is not your problem to convince me, when that is exactly what you tried to do. You are nothing more than a liar, Fo. Why do Christians lie so much? I don’t need to ask you about why you would swear on a legal document, when that is meaningless, Fo. You have shown already that you are not trustworthy, so why should I believe you? What is important is that you have no evidence, and that is not surprising at all. Again, Fo, your swearing about something with no evidence, just tells me you believe something. Would you accept the claims of someone else if they just swore that that it was true? IF so, then you must believe me when I claim that I am an alien from Zeta Reticuli IV and have lived a thousand years on this earth. However, I’m pretty sure you won’t believe me at all, and that makes you nothing more than a hypocrite.
Your person and your “experiences” aka stories are not evidence, they are the stories that you need to support with evidence. For example, the bible is full of stories and claims; those are not evidence. A criminal case is a set of stories from each side, and each side needs evidence to support their claims. In a criminal case, this would be physical evidence, weapons, hair, blood, powder burns. In the case of the bible, we would need the sediment layers from a supposed worldwide flood, animals and humans remains all mixed together, evidence of civilization that could support the building of a huge boat as described in the bible. For your claims, we would need medical records, before and after, etc as evidence. I hold you to your claims, Fo. Jesus Christ never existed, so why would I think I can blame your failure on him?
You can provide evidence that you exist by your posts here. Those posts are not hard to believe that they came from someone who may live in a country in Africa, that believes in certain things, and has a computer. The probability of this is high. The claims of magical healing, when there are no records, no independent witnesses, is very low. And you yourself don’t believe in the claims of others who make similar claims, which also indicates that the probability of such things is very low. You can post links to your supposed evidence on my blog. That is a perfectly viable channel. But not surprisingly, you refuse to do so. Why is that, Fo? I can act like a judge in a court of law since I require evidence. Show it and explain why I should accept it, Fo. If you won’t, then there is no reason to think you have anything at all.
It is no surprise that you have no degree, and are not as educated as you tried to claim. I have no reason to need to believe you when you have nothing to support your claims. This won’t bother my sleep at all, because I know that theists often intentionally make false claims, or their self-worth is so bound up in the delusion that they and only they know the secrets of the universe that they cannot accept that their claims are nonsense. AT this point, you are one more Christian who has made baseless claims, and when asked for evidence, you have nothing.
I can certainly be intolerant of a false claim made by you, in your attempts to claim you have another reality. Your religion’s claims of healing are lies, and they harm people. I have no problem in being disgusted by someone who lets children die just so he selfishly feels important.
Yep, I do actually think that billions of theists lie and do sit around making up stories and live delusions to support their need to feel special in the universe. You all contradict each other, so why should I think any of you is telling the truth, Fo? You aren’t doing this to give anyone “material”, nor are you lying to me directly, you need external validation to feel special, and you need others to believe you and to confirm to you that you are right. Again, you came here to try to claim that your nonsense was true. You still are trying to do that. However, you didn’t realize that I don’t believe you for the same reasons you don’t believe others. And when you failed to convince me, you intentionally lied to excuse your failure.
I’ll be happy to consider your evidence. Now that you know what it is, you can provide it. Nothing shows you “lived” anything, it’s just one more myth in a pile of others that have been dismissed and added to the dustbin of history.