I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'wouldn't it be much worse if life *were* fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. – M. Cole
buzz’s expression when the moron Trump says “‘At some point in the future, we’re going to look back and say, ‘How did we do it without space?” in reference to space exploration.
As often happens, many Christians want to pretend they are martyrs. They have to, their bible says they won’t get the special prezzies unless their prophecies come true. They have to insist that it was magical that their bible predicts they would be ridiculed for their nonsense.
So, on ol’ Banana Man’s youtube channel, he is trying to claim that NASA was up to something they didn’t mention Buzz Aldrin’s wine and cracker on Apollo 11. Alas, for Ray, Buzz wasn’t a Christian who ignored his bible and didn’t shout it from the streetcorners like Ray et all do, since no one would notice they were Christians from their actions. Incidentally, Buzz was a Presbyterian. He sounds like more of deist now from his book. Can you imagine what ol’ Ray would say if a Catholic did this?
As usual, its always great fun to see Christians lie again when they want to pretend that Christianity is everyone’s religion. The world heard the quotation of the bible on the Apollo 8 mission. Madelyn O’Hare protested it and was quite correct to do so since all Americans and all the world aren’t Christians.
Astronaut Aldrin practiced his faith and had no need for it to be advertised (you know, like JC says about not shouting about your faith from street corners like Ray does, Matthew 6). You can read about it in his great book “No Dream Too High” https://www.amazon.com/No-Dream-Too-High-Lessons/dp/1426216491 .
Poor Christians, I do love that they ignore their bible when convenient. Here are a few bits by Buzz in his book:
“In the few weeks prior to launch, when I told Deke Slayton, one of the original astronauts who now ran the Apollo 11 flight crew operations, what I planned to do, Deke balked. “No, that’s not a good idea, Buzz.” He cautioned me, “Go ahead and have Communion but keep your comments more general.” I didn’t agree with Deke at the time but I understood and complied with the instructions. Looking back, he was probably right.”
“I radioed Mission Control “I would like to request a few moments of silence,” I said, “and invite each person listening in, wherever and whomever they may be to pause for a moment and contemplate the events of the past few hours and give thanks in his or her own way.”
“Over the years, I’ve often wondered if I did the right thing, that perhaps I should not have engaged in such an overtly Christian rite, because we wanted to emphasize that we traveled to the moon on behalf of all mankind – Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, agnostics and even atheists. But I cannot deny history. The truth is the first liquid ever poured and the first food eaten on the Moon were Christian Communion elements. ”
“I don’t go around giving testimony to my faith and when anyone asks about the Communion on the Moon, I tell them I wanted to do something that was symbolic and something that was appropriate to the magnitude of what we accomplished. The best way to do that was to encourage everyone to give thanks in their own way. ”
Buzz believes in a higher power, but he acknowledges that there are good people of every kind. A shame that so many Christians find a need to pretend that only they are important.
Buzz also has no problem in punching conspiracy theorists.
After some personal uncomfortableness on my part, listening to my own voice, I have transcripted my chat with Ray Comfort that was recorded by Ray and a copy given to me for my use.
Here is the transcript, since I personally really hate to listen to talking heads. I read much faster than that, and a transcript is my favorite way to see what people say. I didn’t put much punctuation to keep the feel of the chat, but I think it should be pretty easy to read. I started with the autotranscript function on YouTube, and it was better than I thought it would be. But a couple of times, it had issues with Ray’s accent, and evidently mine too 🙂 although I’ve read somewhere that central PA is about as accentless as it gets for an American.
There are some interesting bit that I wanted to comment on since there were some questions unanswered, and some topics we never got back to.
Here’s the bit about creationism (and the start of the discussion about morality):
V: No, well some of that did. I mean after I read it because it’s not very often that the pastors I grew up with would mention anything except for the pretty plain vanilla fuzzy good Jesus parts of it. basically I knew enough science to know that there was no such thing as a 28,000 foot deep flood and you know went on through that then I know after I read the Bible I saw where this God killed David’s son to punish David but you know didn’t care about the child and oh you know the you know the usual stuff that you’ll hear from various you know non-christians
R: so you’re saying that the flood, the noahic flood which was said to cover the whole earth wouldn’t have covered Mount Everest with 29,000 feet do you realize there was no such things as mountains in those days, they hadn’t pushed up
V: there’s no evidence that mountains are that young and there’s you know to try claim that there was no mountains requires quite a energetic geology that would essentially release so much energy that would broil pretty much everyone on earth
R: yeah well that’s kind of what happened in the beginning the mountains pushed up like volcanoes do anyway…
V: those aren’t volcanoes
R; no they’re not but they are made of stone or rock I guess… I don’t know we’re talking about things I don’t know much about well um do you want to use that name Vel or do you want to use your real first name
It’s notable that a creationist admits not to know much about the earth. As I’ve written before, willful ignorance is behind most creationist claims. Creationists, be they Christians, Muslims, etc, all need to either ignore reality or intentionally lie about it. This causes them problems because their claims about creationism are contradictory, since they don’t even start out at the same place. We have contradictory claims about how creation happened by theists, and we have many different claims about how the Noahic flood “really” happened; all dependent on an ignorance of basic science. The folks over at Talk Origins have a good article on the failures of creationists with the bible flood.
After this we get into the morality discussion starting with my question to Ray about his god killing David’s son. Here’s a bit about that:
“R: yes yeah he killed David son okay did God actually kill, is it David son? or yeah David son when he committed adultery with Bathsheba it didn’t bless him with the child he said the child’s gonna die there are repercussions to his actions but he lets solomon live which is wonderful (?)
V: would you be happy if someone killed one of your children and let the other one lives
R: no of course not I love all my kids
V: then why would you accept that from your God
R: oh because he’s the giver of life he’s a giver and the taker of life and he’s the one that blesses with health and and in life itself and a peace if he deems fit to take a loved one what can I do about it I just trust him I trust his integrity so let’s go back to the issue David had a son died and God took him and God says your child’s gonna die did they actually happen
V: did resurrection actually happen
R: no did David have a son that god killed
V: no no I did if that didn’t happen why should I think that the resurrection happened
R: oh no not talking about the resurrection what I’m trying to get you to say is that did God kill the son of David
V: yes that’s what the Bible says
R: yeah but it didn’t happen did it cuz you’re an atheist so you say it didn’t happen because God doesn’t exist so why are you upset about something it didn’t happen it’s like being upset about the fairy godmother turning Cinderella’s coach back into a pumpkin.”
V: (laughter) well let me ask you if let’s just say that it did happen
R: okay
V: and you said that you would have absolutely no problem with a god doing something you would be unhappy with the human doing correct
R: oh yeah I’d be I wouldn’t be the happiest man on earth of one of my children died but I know that God is the giver and the taker of life he created every bone every every drop of blood and my children he gave me the gift of children and if he deem fit that one of my children dies I can’t do anything about it but I can trust him I can trust him in it and say Lord you know what you’re doing you allowed this for some reason it may not be a perfect will but it should permissive will you’re permitted it and in that I rejoice I trust you because that’s what faith is about it’s trusting when often often things aren’t right
V: so you believe you have an objective morality from your religion correct
R: yeah absolutely
V: so if if it’s not moral for a human to do something why is it moral for your God to do it?”
If I were Ray’s kids, I’d be more than a little disturbed by this. I’d do anything to save my kids or anyone’s kids and that includes standing against anything, god or not, that would try to kill them. Heck, I’d do that for my cats. Here, it seems that Ray’s best answer is that I shouldn’t care about some kid since it was long ago. My morals don’t work like that. Injustice and unfairness are forever. He goes on to claim that since everyone is going to die, it isn’t a problem and that I should only be considered with my salvation.
We went back to creationism for a bit, and Ray deflected my request for evidence about which creationism is right.
“V: Christians are all they all have the one real truth but I what need to see is evidence that that is actually the case
R: well that’s it’s provable um now let me ask what’s that
V: how is it provable
R: we’ll come up to that in a few minutes
V: Laughter.”
And of course we didn’t. That was fine with me since I knew at some point he would have to intentionally change the subject from something he didn’t like where it was going.
We discussed the Big Bang Theory a bit and unsurprisingly he intentionally misrepresented it. That also wasn’t a fruitful path for him (get it? Fruit?). So we ended up with the questions that Ray loves and are on more than few of his videos e.g. “Do you think you are a good person? Have you ever lied?” Have you ever stolen anything? etc.
“R: how do you think you’re a good think you’re a good person
V: I’ve heard you do this before yes I do think I’m a good person and I do not use your Bible or your interpretation to define what good is.
R: that’s what we often do that’s what I did before I was a Christian that’s what Adolf Hitler did I no doubt if I talk to Hitler he would say he was a good person because he had his own moral standard he cleaned up Germany got rid of brothels more than full employment got rid of the scum of the earth clean the German race and …
V: know that a lot of Christians think that he did a very good job you can see that on the news with the various Trumpies thinking having no problem with Nazism at all
R: you know what if I were you I wouldn’t cover the whole church with one blanket because Jesus spoke of true and false conversions he spoke of hypocrites he spoke he spoke of fake Christians and they’re the ones that often speak the loudest so don’t sweep with such a broad broom there are genuine Christians that believe the Bible love their enemies that do good they’re kind to other people they’re not nasty and if you find someone who is professing Christian and they they lack love you can say to yourself I don’t believe that person’s a genuine Christian, they are a Jew. “
Now, when he said this initially it caught me by surprise. The auto transcript picked it up as “ they are junius”. I had to rewind this several times and listen because I didn’t want to believe it but this does seem to be what he said.
We ended up at the questions about lies and stealing, oh and taking god’s name in vain later:
“R: let’s get back the question let’s get back to the question because we’re going down a rabbit hole um if you think you’re a good person how do you measure up to those Commandments
V: I don’t care about your Commandments
R: But how do you measure up to them
V: I don’t need to measure up to them
R: well let me ask you let me let me put you on the stand and see how you do how many lies do you think you’ve told in your life
V: I’ve told some and some were for a good reason just like the folks who did Anne Frank were lying to the Nazis”
This was again not working for Ray, and he had to claim I hate his god because I use his god’s name as a cuss word. There was more about how I have to be hating his bogeyman. There is more about morals, and I had a good time pointing out just how evil his god is. That got me told that I was “misinterpreting” the bible, but no explanation on how this was the case.
Then Ray was revved up and his words got faster and faster as he tried to preach at me. That preaching was interspersed with my laughter and refutations. His attempts at sowing fear didn’t work and that did appear to confuse him, leading to more repetition and appeals to how much my parents love me.
After trying to tell me, a former Presbyterian/calvinist, that I didn’t understand predestination “correctly”, we ended up with Ray trying to tell me that this god of his was finally answering my prayers said 40 years ago. That his god is timeless, yada, yada. Which again doesn’t match up with what the bible actually says.
“R: okay let me answer that God sometimes takes his time a day of the Lord is a thousand years to us and God is answering that prayer today and I’m trying to help you to restore your faith so you thank God that he chooses the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe. he speaks through donkeys he’s speaking through me today and telling you that he has no pleasure in your death and he’s answering your prayer and he wants to restore your faith. Okay”
And yes, I was very very hard pressed not to use the obvious joke here. 🙂
This whole thing had a great ending when Ray sent me a signed copy of his book “Banana Man”, and it had two Subway gift cards in it. I guess that’s what happened to the other $7000 went. You can see the saga of the subway cards here.
Yep, thanks to Ray Comfort, oranges are evidence of his version of the Christian god:
Of course no Christian can do miracles like Jesus Christ, Son of God. But heck, we should believe oranges are evidence of this god, just like bananas.
Screw the amputees, screw the cancer patients, oranges are evidence of God. Even Ray will choose a secular hospital rather than trusting that a Christian elder can heal him. Sucks to need evidence, eh? So much for “faith”.
What complete idiots.
and this is the fellow that some atheists claim is a nice guy
Ray Comfort thinks he’s being clever again. He has an attempt to claim his god isn’t a “cruel tyrant”.
My father used to hit me. He would daily leave my mother to raise us kids, and I once saw him kill a helpless animal with his bare hands. With that information you could understandably come to the conclusion that my father was a tyrant.
And of course, there is indeed information missing to explain what Ray is trying to claim.
But listen to some missing information. If I ever lied or stole, my dad cared enough to correct me on the seat of my learning, and for that I greatly respected him and stayed on the straight and narrow. The reason he left my mom each day was to work hard as a carpenter and provide food for our table. And that animal he killed…it was a large bird that had been struck by a car and had been left to die on the side of the road. He put the poor animal out of its misery, and it grieved him to do so.
One has to wonder how many times Ray lied or stole from someone, being a raised as a Christian and all. Must have been often and he still does it. A pity his father isn’t still around. One also has to wonder exactly how Ray’s dad killed an injured bird with his “bare hands”. My father had to kill a hawk that I found; it had been shot and left to die, filled with maggots. He shot it and it died quickly and cleanly.
With that knowledge you can now see that my dad wasn’t a tyrant. He was a loving and kind father.
Yep, we can see that this human wasn’t a tyrant, if somewhat questionable.
Richard Dawkins believes that God is more than just a tyrant. He said:
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
But there’s some missing information he’s not giving you that changes everything…for those who will listen.
Dawkins is right, this god is all that he mentions and more (I can give verses if you’d like). We have a god that either intentionally allows the “serpent” in the garden or was too stupid to keep it out. Then this god punishes humans for listening to and believing the second most powerful being in the universe, if we are to believe the bible. We continue on with this god wandering off and when it comes back, it is upset no one is worshipping it anymore, deeming that to be “evil” and then killing everyone on earth (minus 8 including a drunkard), including children, plus animals and plants that had nothing to do with this.
We then head to Exodus, where this god forgets that its people are suffering, and when it does remember, proceeds to mind control people so it can show off. This showing off kills many. Farther along, we have this god killing a child for its parents actions, being afraid of a tall building, and repeatedly screwing up in choosing kings for its supposed “chosen” people.
Then, finally, this god, having repeatedly trying and failing to get its people to do what it wants, decides it needs a blood sacrifice of itself to apologize for it allowing the serpent in.
This is what Ray claims:
This same morally perfect and holy Creator (whose seeming harsh judgments were always “righteous and true altogether”) became a morally perfect human being. He did this to save us from the same just wrath that spilled upon the wicked nations of the Old Testament. Most of us know that Jesus of Nazareth gave His life as a sacrifice for the sin of the world. What they don’t know is that we violated God’s Law (the Ten Commandments) and justly deserve the wrath of the moral Law, but Jesus paid our fine in full. That means that God can legally dismiss our case. He can commute our death sentence and let us live forever, because our fine was paid by Another who then rose from the dead.
“Morally perfect”? Where? Only if one assumes that anything that this god does is “morally perfect” just because it is this god e.g. a morality based on might equals right. And wrath on the nations in the ancient Middle East? Where? No one noticed.
The verse that Ray is quoting from is this, Psalm 19: The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul; the decrees of the Lord are sure, making wise the simple; the precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is clear, enlightening the eyes; 9 the fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever; the ordinances of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.”
Now we have a problem here for Christians since none of them follow these commandments and laws of this god. Not even every Jew follows them these “perfect laws” or even tries. We also have this psalm that as a great example of the ignorance of bible characters about the universe, assuming that the sun has a tent that this god puts it in. This is also supposedly David singing, to a creature that killed his child. It takes a lot of fear and stupidity to laud a child-murderer (of course many Christians will say it’s not “murder” since this god has the right to do whatever it wants with humans).
You know, like a tyrant.
No, “most of us” don’t know or believe that this magical man gave his life for anything. We have a story, that has this magical man really not wanting to do this, and being forced by this god to be a human sacrifice for something it caused to happen. (the gospel of John of course contradicts this). And Ray, sorry to tell you but there are quite a few more commandments from your supposed god than just 10. Ray also argues that we don’t need those commandments in public buildings since “Jesus paid our fine in full.”
One has to wonder what legality that this god is beholden to, if it can “legally dismiss our case”. That would be something beyond this god.
The same holy God who considers lust to be adultery and hatred to be murder, made provision for His great love and mercy to be extended towards those who repent and trust in the Savior. For the Christian, the cross of Jesus Christ shows that God isn’t the wicked tyrant that foolish and ignorant men make Him out to be. It is the missing information that changes everything.
So, if this god considers even a thought as bad as the act, one has to wonder why this god constantly allows these people to commit their acts, rather than smiting them like he supposedly used to do. He could stop raping priests and pastors, because he let them have their free will in their minds. But this god does nothing at all, not even what a parent would do to correct a child. There is no “love and mercy” toward those who this god intentionally allows harm to come to. Such an incompetent tyrant Ray has as a god.
I’m quite pleased to provide that missing information that Ray chose not to present.
Club Schadenfreude 