Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – a response to Dale re: prayer and free will

021-you-burnt-us-at-the-stake-650x402(10/20/2016 – I’ve had a lot of Christians follow recently and like this post, as well as other posts about how religion fails.  Not sure why this is, but I’m more than happy to see people approve and agree with my posts.)

I’ve encountered a new Christian apologist on a friend’s website.  I’ll first put up his post and give a little background.  Ark has asked Christians to explain a couple of things in their religion.  SailorDale has said he would do so, with some caveats.  I’m not sure if he will answer or not (and I’m assuming he is a he.)   We went off topic a little and I thought I’d post here to not take up time and space on another’s blog.  Now, for my readers who have been around for a while, this is more making of the pate de cheval and yep, you’ve see the discussion before.

Sailordale writes: OK, First let me say that you have the choice (free will) to accept or reject Jesus. Ultimately, that is your decision, and yours alone. Everyone has some knowledge of God, and thus no one will be without excuse when we are standing before God to give an account for our lives. We will not be able to say “I didn’t know” So I do hope that you will seriously consider Christianity! And I highly recommend the page- http://www.gotquestions.org/ That is a great place to seek answers to your unresolved questions about God & Jesus. And the Bible is the best interpreter of itself. Keep on reading it, the answers are all there. And as for the Prayers- Yes, Prayer DOES work, and all prayers will be answered! But, they may not be answered exactly as the asker is wanting. You are misunderstanding the prayers that you mentioned in your post. Never did Jesus say that all our prayers would be granted as we wish. We must pray according to God’s Will. If we pray for something that is against the will of God, that prayer will always be answered with a NO. God knows us better than we know ourselves, and He will not give us something that will not good for us. And if your mind is set on not becoming a Christian, then God will NEVER force Himself on anyone! That choice is yours. God knows everything, past, present, & future. If He knows that one will never accept Him, and His Son’s payment for all sins, then God will leave you alone. God knows all that are His, and not a single one of His will be lost. God most certainly DOES exist, and He Loves YOU more than anyone can comprehend! He also knows if you will accept or reject Him in the future. (He knows your choice, and He will honor your choice, whatever you chose…”

Free will

Dale, your reply indicates that you don’t know what the bible says and that is not an uncommon thing when it comes to Christians.  Where in the bible does it say one has the free will to accept or reject Jesus?  I’m very familiar with the bible, having read it in its entirety as a Christian and as not, and I don’t recall where it says there is free will.  You are most welcome to show me wrong.  I do remember where it says that God chooses some people to believe and some people not to believe (Romans 9) and where the character JC says that he/his god intentionally makes it impossible for some to accept and understand his words. This would not indicate free will.  There are also the many instances of this god interfering with humans which also indicates no free will (I’m going with the often used definition that we somehow can make decisions and act without influence of any kind or at least no superpowereful divine influences).   Considering that this god controlled the actions of many e.g. Pharoah, and removed the choices from many e.g. David’s son, there is again no evidence for free will. Perhaps you define free will differently. Please do explain.

QuetzalcoatlMy god is the only god

You also use the common claim of many, if not all theists, that “everyone” has some knowledge of your version of your god,  in your instance “God” (Christians usually cite Romans 1).  However, there is nothing to support this claim. There is nothing to show that your god is the only one known nor is there any evidence that your god was the creator.   Since no theist has any better evidence that their claims are any more valid than the next, there is little reason to accept your claims.  This is why Ark, and so many of us ask questions, to see if there is actually anything there to support the claims.   If it is true that there is some god, it’s a piece of important information about the universe.  If it is not true that there is some god,  then that is also important.  It’s not an ulterior motive, it’s what people do when they question the claims of another; they question how the claim is supported. The claim fails or succeeds based on that.

Pascal’s Wager

You offer what is Pascal’s Wager, that I should believe in your god because the alternative is death and destruction.  But per your bible, I have no choice.  I also have the issue that your god is again no more supported than worshipping Vishnu, Tezcatlipoca, Allah, the wiccan Goddess, Bast, or Coyote.  I have been out to the Got Questions website and have found it as lacking in evidence as any other Christian or other religion’s apologetic website.  It also disagrees with other Christians on what the bible “really” means, further cloudying the claim of who are Christians and what do they believe. Also, if the bible is the best interpreter of itself, then why do Christians disagree on what it says and “means” to the point of trying to kill each other when they had power?  Out of all of the hundreds, if not thousands of sects, who is the “right” one?  You seem to think you know the “right” answer, but what I want to know is*how* you know yours is the right one and everyone else, including fellow Christians, are wrong.god-wants-to-flood-us

Prayer

You claim that prayer does work and will work (which seems to indicate that it hasn’t yet).  Evidence for this?  Your claims about prayers are not supported by your bible nor even by other Christians. The bible says that prayers will be answered exactly as the asker is wanting (a father would not give a snake if asked for a fish by his child).  Jesus said exactly that *anything*, no caveats at all, would be given if asked of him.  You are not telling the truth about what your bible says, Dale, and it is always fascinating to me when a Christian does this, when he should know that anyone can read the bible and find out those claims are wrong.   You try to excuse this nonsense by saying we must pray according to this god’s will, which means we have no choice and means prayer is entirely pointless if praying for something has already been determined. It makes JC out to be a liar.  If everything must fit an already determined result, that kills free will…again.

Predestination, free will, and what the bible actually says

why-indeed-shelley-quoteAs a former predestinationalist i.e. Presbyterian, at least I didn’t have the problems of claiming free will, but I’ve long known its failures when used for Christianity.   If prayers work and only work if this god of yours allows it, then what does that say about your god’s opinion about atheists? This god would rather have us around than not? That this god really does intend on damning us for no reason of our own? Your claims are becoming contradictory e.g. is God controlling things or not. Why are you praying for something, when you haven’t a clue if it is approved by god or not?   If God’s will is God’s will, then any prayer is completely pointless.   Mom will die of that brain cancer despite the prayers of millions, and those millions can’t claim that their prayers did squat if she lives.

Again, you are misrepresenting what your bible actually says when you say your god never forces itself on anyone (again see Pharaoh, see David’s son, see anytime God kills a human or alters a battle, see Paul).  Indeed, we have the big wrap-up finish in Revelation, where your god again ignores free will and intentionally allows his supposed archenemy to corrupt whomever it wants of those people who were accepting Christ and this god (all of those who didn’t were murdered by this god, and then damned for having no choice per Romans 9).   We also have the conflicting claim that everyone is judged by the actions listed in their “book of life”, which would mean that JC isn’t for the universal redemption of everyone’s sins if they are still going to be counted.

We have an omnipotent, omniscient god that has supposedly set the rules, and then changes its mind on how to get back in his good graces: methods to follow or else, aka no choices.   A flood that didn’t work.  Commandments that didn’t work.  And we have different ways per the NT how it’s supposed to work depending on the author:  acceptance of JC as savior; and/or doing good works; and/or JC being a blood sacrifice; and/or grace alone e.g. no free will; and/or for women alone, childbirth.  If he already knows that someone won’t accept him, or as per the bible, your god has made someone not to accept him, there is no choice. Indeed, there is no point of allowing such a person to exist, except for sadism.   If one believes the bible, your god leaves no one alone, deeming torture to be what those who don’t accept him get.  As for love, how do you define love?  I think the bible actually has a pretty good definition of it with the whole “love is…”  thing.  Now, the one thing that is peculiar is that your god, as described by the bible, fails at almost everything listed.

Your last sentence can have any god put in the place of “God”.  Now, if that is done, would you simply say “Oh shucks, I believe you.”?   Or would you have questions just like mine?

As an aside to my theist readers, I know that your versions of Christianity vary widely and many of you have indicated you liked my posts attacking another version of Christianity other than yours.  You are invited to post why Dale is wrong and why your version is correct.  My atheist and agnostic readers are always invited to kibitz too.

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332 responses to “Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – a response to Dale re: prayer and free will

  1. A discussion about free will makes sense only if we have the power to alter our thinking as a result of that discussion. You and Sailordale agree that free will exists but disagree on the particulars of how.

    • John, you seem to be making things up. Where have I indicated I believe in free will as I have described it above? And since you have made the claim, please do tell how I “disagree on the particulars of how”.

      Do you believe in free will as I have defined or not? And how does that inform your version of Christianity?

      • I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to presume.
        Do you believe the people who read your blog have the ability to change their opinions? Do you believe your words can cause people to think differently?

        If ‘yes’, then wouldn’t you say that is ‘free will’?

      • They can change their opinions within the framework of what they have experienced before which can include my blog. That influence will always exist. That is not free will as typically defined, where anyone can make any decision no matter what, prior influence not existing.

        the claim that you “didn’t mean to presume” doesn’t match what you did say “A discussion about free will makes sense only if we have the power to alter our thinking as a result of that discussion. You and Sailordale agree that free will exists but disagree on the particulars of how.”

        you make the claim that somehow you knew that I and Dale agreed which indicates you thought you had evidence of this.

        Now, do you believe in free will as I indicated, and do you think it appears in your bible? Or are you a predestinationalist, like I was?

      • I’m not getting notified of responses. And I can’t reply under the most recent comment. Sorry for the delays and out of sync comments…

        I didn’t see a place where you defined free will.

        It is my opinion that humans possess free will. We can ‘choose to make any decision we want’. Laws and edicts are based on that assumption. We give awards for accomplishments because people’s efforts are not mandatory. You choose whether or not to write your blog. I choose whether or not to read it.

        It is possible that we live in a Matrix and free will does not exist. But until we are given the red pill, we behave as if we have choice.

      • An internet search will show free will and you seem to think you already know what it is. Can you support your opinion that humans have free will? How can some one make a decision if they are not using experience to make that decision, consciously or unconsciously? That is what you end up claiming when you say there is free will.

        There is an assumption that humans will act like humans, and that doesn’t mean that they have free will. Humans do act with the assumption we can make any choice, but that isn’t true.

        I write a blog because I have the experience that writing does what I want, get my ideas out there. If I didn’t have that experience, then I wouldn’t bother writing, correct?

        again, JB, I can understand that you believe in free will. How does this work with your religion where the bible says that your god controls people, makes people to be damned from no action of their own and constantly interferes with human action?

      • Experience helps us make choices. And you’re correct that we can’t choose ALL of our experiences. We experienced a tornado a few weeks ago, not by choice. A severe weather alert popped up on my phone and I used free will to head for the basement. Previous experience with storms contributed to that choice.

        To be clear, I cannot prove that we don’t live in the Matrix. It’s possible that every aspect of our conscious experience is controlled.

        Neither can I give you an exhaustive description of how God thinks. There are certainly places in scripture where he ‘controls’ people directly. There are other places where people are invited to “choose this day whom you will serve”.

        If free will is merely an illusion, it doesn’t matter. We can’t have civilization unless we hold people accountable for their choices. We must live as if we believe in choice, even if we don’t.

      • No, JB, you did not use “free will” to head to the basement. You used prior experience, knowing that tornadoes are dangerous, and being told that by people you trust. You did indeed make a decision, but if you had no idea about tornadoes, what would you have done?

        No one cares if you can show if we live in a “matrix” or not. All indications are that there is no free will and that appears what you are trying to claim exists. You’ve made the positive claim, so I’m expecting you to support it. If there is free will, what supports that conclusion? Just like how you tried to claim I believe in free will and that Dale does, you’ve made a claim, and then when its pointed out to you that you have nothing, then you back away from what you initially claimed to have evidence for. This is one of the big problems with theists, so few of you actually think about what you claim is true, that you end up with nonsense and making up more and more excuses.

        Take for instance your new excuse that now you can’t give me an “exhaustive description how God thinks”, though you will insist that your version is the only true one and that you know what it does think, when convenient. You claim your bible is some font of truth but there can’t be a truth in something that directly contradicts itself. Yep, the author of Joshua says “15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” Then the author goes on to say that if you don’t choose this god, this omnipotent being will murder you. Now, if this god wasn’t omnipotent as claimed, and there was another outcome, then you might have an argument for being able to make a choice, but a choice that has only one outcome is not a choice at all. It’s like Eddie Izzard’s routine about cake and death. (at the 5:00 mark) If there is no cake, then there is no choice. Since we have this promise of death, this god claimed to damn people with no fault of their own, that this god/its son intentionally preventing people from beleivign in it, this god interfering with humans repeatedly and this god intentionally allowing its supposed powerful archenemy to corrupt the faithful, there appears to be no free will in the bible?

        Are you content with a god that does this? Some Christians are, sure that they are the chosen ones. Some aren’t, horrified at the idea of a tyrant that will eternally torture people for no reason at all. The problem is that there is no evidence of the various versions of Christianity at all except wishful thinking, and each sect is sure that they are the chosen ones and the others aren’t. Who is to be believed? There is no reason to think any of you are right.

        As for not having a civilization if we don’t hold people accountable, explain to me how that works. All it sounds like is a baseless “chicken little” claim. We already have the idea that mental illness can make someone not responsible and treat them accordingly. Some religions have the idea that it is “demons” controlling people and they aren’t responsible. Humans do act as if they have a choice but why would we lose civilization if we acknowledged that we don’t?

      • if we can’t make some choices, then free will fails. It’s an either or position, rather like saying something is sterile or not. Something can’t be “kinda sterile”, like will can’t be kinda free. Except when its not and being controlled by an omnipotent being.

      • Not in the way I’m guessing you mean that. I followed the information and the conclusion was that there are no gods. I did not go out one day and say “Hey, I’ll become an atheist”. It was a long process of investigation including prayer. I believed in this god because of influences, most particularly trust in those who told me the myths were true. Rather like why I believed in Santa Claus. When I considered the evidence, I ended up not believing in him either, and it is very difficult, if not impossible to rebelieve in something like that.

        Did you decide to become a Christian of a certain sect?

      • Hmmm, I didn’t say that I made a decision, so why did you find you needed to imply that I had, JB?

        As I said, I didn’t decide one day to become an atheist. It was a gradual process, following the evidence and having no more belief. The same for Santa Claus. I didn’t decide to cease believing in Santa Claus or God, that’s the result of the evidence, and belief just isn’t turned on and off.

        Most, if not all, people adopt the belief system they were born into. Did they have a choice in that? Did you?

        As I indicated, there can be choices, but they are all influenced by prior experience. If your claim about free will was true, then you could have chosen to become a Muslim at any time. But you didn’t.

        Now, to repeat a couple of questions to you:

        Since we have this promise of death, this god claimed to damn people with no fault of their own, that this god/its son intentionally preventing people from beleivign in it, this god interfering with humans repeatedly and this god intentionally allowing its supposed powerful archenemy to corrupt the faithful, there appears to be no free will in the bible?

        Are you content with a god that does this? Some Christians are, sure that they are the chosen ones. Some aren’t, horrified at the idea of a tyrant that will eternally torture people for no reason at all. The problem is that there is no evidence of the various versions of Christianity at all except wishful thinking, and each sect is sure that they are the chosen ones and the others aren’t. Who is to be believed? There is no reason to think any of you are right.

        Where is free will in your bible?

      • “For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.”

        You decide to ask, search or knock. Free will.

      • Ahh. . . So it IS Yahweh you worship, even though you try to wiggle out of that fact every time you are asked.

      • That’s actually not a bad point, JB. However, you ignore what JC has already said. How does this claim work in the context where JC says that he is intentionally making it that no one will be able to understand his words and accept those words which say ““For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.”? If you don’t believe in these words because an omnipotent being says you can’t, how can you ask, search or knock? Which part of JC’s words do we ignore for your claim to work?

        And how does it work with this from Paul: “14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
        16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?”

        If everything depends on god, then asking, knocking and searching do nothing. Shall we believe Jesus or Paul? And do we ignore the context of what Jesus made the claim in, that he is not allowing everyone to search, knock or ask?

        Again, are you good with a god that controls people and then damns them to eternal torture through no faults of their own?

      • I said I’m not capable of giving a detailed explanation of how God thinks.

        Paul was struck blind and heard Jesus voice. It seems like that would be unnecessary when God could just take over Paul’s mind to convert him. God has mercy on those He chooses.

        The question ‘Shall we believe Jesus or Paul’ implies that they can’t both be telling the truth. Perhaps there is an angle that you haven’t considered.

        Either way, you have rejected all religious claims for ‘lack of evidence’. If there is no free will and God has hardened your heart, then evidence has nothing to do with your beliefs. You are powerless to choose otherwise.

      • I know you’ve made the expected claim that you can’t give a “detailed explanation of how God thinks”, but again, JB, you give a detailed explanation when it’s convenient, e.g. that God supposedly loves, that certain things get one into heaven, and claim you just don’t know when the questions about your god’s actions become uncomfortable to think about and answer. The same sudden ignorance on why God would do something always appears when theists are asked why their god approves of genocide, why this god would kill children, would intentionally work with its supposed archenemy to damn those who faithfully worship this god after this god murders all non-Christians, etc. If you have no idea why your god would do one thing, this means that there is little reason that you do have an knowledge of why it would to another, or even exists.

        Yep, it would seem pointless if God could just take over Paul’s mind. I have to wonder if you’ve actually read the various versions of Paul’s conversion if you think a person who is intentionally blinded and told what they must do or are assigned to do or “The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth.” Or “. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me” is operating under free will. AS it stands, that’s exactly what happened, your god supposedly took over Paul’s mind because that is what the bible says happened. It does make it curious when this god starts contradicting what it said earlier.

        Yep, your bible says that your god has mercy on whom he chooses and damns the rest through no fault of their own. Is this just and fair, JB, or is it simply a version of might make right?
        Of course the question “shall we believe Jesus or Paul” says straight out they both can’t be telling the truth, no implying needed. They contradict each other, JB, so which shall we believe, if either? IF there is an angle I haven’t considered, what is it, JB? What special way of making up stuff allows you to say that “no one will know when JC will return” equals “I know when JC will return”? Indeed, JC says not to trust anyone who says “the day is at hand” (Luke 21) just Paul does in Romans 13. JC says that the merciful will obtain mercy(Matt 5); Paul says it doesn’t matter what you do, this god gives mercy to whom ever he fancies, the merciful don’t have any better of a chance of getting mercy than anyone else. (Romans 9). JC says that by one’s own words one is justified: 36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.” (Mark 12) and Paul doesn’t sat that at all: “There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Which repeats the claim that this god picks and chooses who will accept the religion and who don’t. Paul says “For though you have countless leaders in Christ ,,,” and JC says “Neither be called leaders, for you have one leader, the Christ.” And this is isn’t all, a Christian did quite a list of them: http://www.voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html

        I have rejected your baseless claims, JB. You reject the religious claims of others for lack of evidence. You have yet to show that there is any free will in your bible. You have certainly done a great job of pointing out that if there is a god and no free will, I’m damned to eternal torture through no fault of my own. I am nothing more than a marionette controlled by a god that seems to be doing this whole thing for what, pleasuring itself? Again, are you good with a god like that, JB? Having no problem that all the morals that you claim are nothing more than might equals right? You have done your best to ignore the question and refuse to answer it. I’m guessing that your answer will be less than flattering to you, our Christian comedian. If you are right, you are powerless to choose otherwise too, my fellow marionette and there goes any idea that your religion is anything special, and that someone died *for* you. The resurrection now means nothing.

        However, happily, your religion is false and we can indeed consider evidence for and against things because we can come to different conclusions and the final arbiter is reality. You and I benefit from that everyday.

      • How interesting that you try to edit what I said. No, I did not say “We are free to come to different conclusions when considering evidence.” Now, why did you intentionally exclude what I have said, which is that we are able to come to different conclusions which are dependent to our prior experience, and reality is the artibiter of what is true, not as you are trying to claim free will to be. We are influenced by our prior experiences. I’m not quite sure why you would try to misrepresent what I’ve said. Perhaps I have not been clear; perhaps I have and you have chosen to do this because you have the prior experience of needing to defend your religion when facts don’t support it.

        It is not a surprise that you would now would seem to try to avoid the point that even Paul evinced no free will. And again, you try to claim that you know your gods intent when convenient and then claim ignorance when considering those problems with your god that are uncomfortable to consider.

        Yep, your bible says that your god has mercy on whom he chooses and damns the rest through no fault of their own. Is this just and fair, JB, or is it simply a version of might make right? Is this free will or not, JB? You seem to have claimed that you to think free will is in the bible and that free will is desirable. IF this is the case, how does this work with your bible and its claims?

        Why do Paul and Jesus directly contradict each other? Why is a book that is supposedly true, have Christians disagreeing on what this god actually means? If there is no free will, what significance does the resurrection have? I’m not expecting answers to my questions, though I still hold out a faint hope. I will take the opportunity to demonstrate what you have chosen to address and what you have chosen to ignore.

  2. Re: No other gods. Dale really *should* read his bible. Or at least the 10 commandments. “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”?! Exodus 12:12, Psalm 82:1-2, the whole Moses and Elijah going old school on the prophets of other gods, i.e. my miracle is better than your miracle, etc.
    Psssh.

  3. Dale wrote

    Yes, Prayer DOES work, and all prayers will be answered! But, they may not be answered exactly as the asker is wanting. You are misunderstanding the prayers that you mentioned in your post. Never did Jesus say that all our prayers would be granted as we wish. We must pray according to God’s Will. If we pray for something that is against the will of God, that prayer will always be answered with a NO.

    to which I must say all those women, children and men who have been raped, killed while praying for their assailants to stop were all doing it wrong. It was against god’s will they continue to live. God answered NO!
    And how on earth are we to know god’s will to pray according to it?

  4. Ultimately man is NOT a free agent. He is first of all enslaved to his depravity. His mind is blind and his heart is deceitful. He has only one desire and that is to sin. His only freedom is the choice of what form of sin in which to engage. Yes, only those who are ordained to eternal life will be saved. Some are chosen and others are not. Yet those who are chosen will choose Christ and exercise faith. How? Because their thinking has been changed by the Holy Spirit, regeneration or the new birth. Ultimately man is lost and damned. Only the grace of God can save and deliver. It is this grace alone which liberates man and gives him true freedom.

    “I am the door, by me if any man enter in he shall be saved and shall go and out and find pasture.”

    “I am cone that they might have life and that they might have it more abundantly”

    Both references from John 10.

    • FFTS, you need to provide evidence for your claims. Your version of your religion seems to depend on your claim that humans are “enslaved to depravity”. IF the question “why is this?” is asked, one ends up with the conclusion that, if the bible is true with its description of its god, this god of yours made them that way, knowing full well what would happen and intending it. The claims of free will by Christians fail since their bible doesn’t support them. You’ve done an excellent argument for no free will at all, thank you. You’ve shown that Christians disagree in the most basic things, and there is no reason to believe any of you since you have nothing to support your nonsense.

    • Same old empty poetic versions of “you are all a piece of crap…unless you buy my magic cure” garbage that is the core of most religions. How about this little thing called evidence? You know the way every modern person distinguishes between false claims and true ones?

  5. Club,
    I can’t believe you haven’t read the zinger, “Oh, but Hell’s locked from the inside!” yet. (I’m sure it’s coming)
    I see by the above poster that his inherent depravity makes him the perfect candidate for the ‘saviour’. What nonsense.
    I also had not read the Grayling quote – it’s excellent. Yes, we’re all such MEEAANIES!! Speaking logic, good sense, and using objective facts are so very insulting, you see. Oh, my.

    • The argument that Hell is locked from the inside is just so silly yet it is so often repeated.

      Not one single person would choose eternal torture if there was an alternative. To argue otherwise strains credibility.

    • Though I do hope that something new will be proffered by the various theists, I am not expecting it at all. It is very likely that we’ll get to see the “hell is locked from the inside” nonsense, another one of those aphorisms that demonstrate that many Christians have no idea what their bible actually says. We’ve already had FFTS demonstrate that Christians disagree on some very basic ideas.

      I do like Grayling’s quote since, in my experience, a fair number of Christians try to hide behind their claims that asking any question doesn’t “respect” them/their religion.

  6. Carmen, Grayling’s quote is deeply flawed. Sadly elements within Christianity, especially Catholicism have been guilty of persecution. This was wrong. The object of their persecution, however, were other Christians, not atheists. The history of the world shows that Christianity has been much persecuted and yet has survived. In the 20th Century the largest single cause of persecution was atheistic regimes. True Christians have nothing to fear from debate and open discussions. Faith has nothing to fear from exposure to criticism or it would not be faith. It seems that those who are at the forefront of limiting free speech and curtailing Christian expression are the atheists. Who is more afraid? The Christians or the atheists? Why is Christianity such a threat to atheism if what Christians believe is nonsense. Nonsense is no threat to anyone. Would it be because the atheist is afraid that there might be some substance to the nonsense?

    • FFTS, you may wish to do some research before trying to make believe only Catholics tortured people to death for disagreeing, including people at the stake. You try to claim that “elements” in Christianity were the only ones guilt of persecution, when your bible says that one should kill anyone who doesn’t believe in its god and supposed savior. Per this philosophy, your religion has killed other Christians, atheists, non-Christian theists, etc. Some Christians do ignore those parts, either because they are humane people or that secular law does make it inconvenient.

      Christians have been persecuted, and often by other Christians who are quite sure that they don’t follow the “right” version of the religion. One part of a religion persecuting another part is quite common; the shia and the sunni is one obvious example. One religion persecutes another quite frequently since most theists must pretend that their and only their religion is the true one. Christians and other religions have also been persecuted by governments led by megalomaniacs, who were sometimes atheists, sometimes not. If you wish to make the claim that they were persecuted because of atheism solely, then show the evidence. If you cannot, I expect you to recant your claim.

      You unsurprisingly invoke the TrueChristian nonsense. Please do show that you, and those who follow your version of Christianity, are the TrueChristians. Per your bible, it should be pretty easy. Per JC himself via your bible, those who are baptized believers will be able to do miracles like him and even better ones. Can you? If not, why not?

      Faith certainly has plenty to fear from criticism, debate and open discussions, despite your claims to the contrary. This is why creationists try to repeatedly have only their myths taught in the school, why books about other religions, and books that question the authority of religion are among the top books in libraries that are requested to be banned. The bible has been requested to be banned. In some ways I agree with this, since it does advocate for genocide. However, it is an important historical artifact and has a few lovely bits in it, so I advocate for keep it in the library as well as other religious books. A read of them often makes an atheist.

      Like many Christians, you wish to claim how persecuted you are. Here in the US, and where you appear to be in the UK, there are how many churches, FFTS? Here in the US, there are hundreds of media outlets for Christianity alone. It’s only when a Christian is prevented from forcing his religion on another when they whine about persecution and devalue the real persecution that some of them indeed experience. You also try your hardest to insist that non-Christians sit down and shut up with your specious argument that since non-Christians find Christianity nonsense we shouldn’t talk about it. Belief in Christianity can cause real harm, FFTS, and that’s why it can be a threat. You fail again with your inability to think a topic through. Hmmm, why do some Christians have a fit about other religions if what those non-Christians believe is nonsense? Again, because those beliefs can harm by the actions they inspire. So, no, FFTS, we don’t believe in your nonsense any more than you believe in another religion’s. As hard as some Christians try to pretend, non-Christians don’t secretly agree with them.

      • As I suspected I have certainly touched a raw nerve. Murder and persecution is wrong whether it comes from a religious or atheistic source. I am sure you would like to be compared to Stalin or Paul Pit because they were atheists. Likewise because religions have been guilty of persecution does not prove faith is wrong.

        Now to get to the main point. Is Christianity harmful. You say it is. Therefore you fear Christianity. You fear children being taught Christian values yet you advocate indoctrinating children with atheistic values. Christian values have given us the free democratic society we enjoy today. Christianity changed the world for good, especially since the Reformation . Christianity gives the world a moral code, s sense of right and wrong. Atheism offers nothing but put of despair in dinking sand with morality except what seems right at a given point on history.

        Judging from the reaction atheism has everything to fear from Christianity.

      • Corrections – “not like to be compared to Stalin or Pol Pot”

        And

        “Sinking pit of despair”

        Apologies, I find not being able to correct comments on other blogs after publishing a torture.

      • FftS-
        There’s no such thing as ‘Christian values’ or ‘atheist values’. Stalin and Pol Pot did not murder people because they were atheists. There have been people whose ‘christian values’ caused them to do harm; men who’ve murdered abortion providers, for instance. Don’t lets get started on the damage being done in the name of ‘christian values’ as per women’s rights, LGBTQ rights, etc. (as roughseas as indicated).

      • the only nerve you touched is my disgust for someone who can’t provide evidence for his claims. Again, FFTS, please do show that atheism caused Stalin to persecute many many different groups in the USSR. Was it atheism or megalomania?

        Christianity can be harmful. You have admitted it by showing that Christians do indeed persecute others, including other Christians. Again, thank you for that. Parents can teach children what they wish, including whatever “Christian values” are (Christians don’t agree). What are “Christian values”, FFTS? For example, is it to be tolerant of others or to insist that no one but Christians have rights? I’ve heard both. And what are “atheistic values” since I know that atheists have many different values?

        It is simply a lie when you claim that Christianity has given rise to democratic society. That was the Greeks, FFTS, not Christians. Christianity has not changed the world for good. Other societies far older than Christian ones have had the golden rule i.e. “do unto others”. You claim that Christians has changed the world for good since the Reformation. Do you mean the same Reformation that was led by a anti-Semite named Luther who spread lies about the Jews and whose words were followed to truly persecute them? Chrianity does provide a moral code but again not for the world and the only worthwhile bits of the bible are cribbed from the cultures that came before that already had the golden rule.

        Atheism is no more than the conclusion that there are no gods. I am sure that some atheists are nihilists but the vast majority are not, so your claims about “dinking sand”[sic) are merely wishful thinking, hoping that no one but you is happy. As for morals being subjective, yep, they are, and for humans they have improved from ignorant agrarians. We know this by watching Christians changing their claims of “moral truth” all through history. As usual, reality shows that you are wrong.

      • Stalin was a Marxist. Marx famously described Marxism as “opium of the people” Marxism cannot exist alongside freedom of religion because Communist ideology deifies the state. The people are the outworking of the state; doing it’s will. Such a system of belief is opposed to Christianity. Therefore all Communist regimes on account of their atheism had to suppress Christianity in order to succeed. Interestingly Christianity continued to exist in those nations as history has demonstrated and after the Iron Curtain came down Communism collapsed but Christianity continues to this day. Christianity has proved to be greater and more powerful than atheism. Yes clubschadenfreude, you do well to fear Christianity, believing as you do.

      • wow, food. Let’s see what Marx actually said and not your ignorant claim:

        “The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

        Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

        The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_of_the_people

        It seems you are as either ignorant or intentionally deceitful about history as you are your own bible. I’ll be back to address your other nonsense later.

      • Yes indeed, Religion is the Opium of the people, according to Marx. This logically was the basis upon which Communism persecuted faith. Atheism was the motivator. Yo deny this is to deny a huge chunk of 20th Century history!

      • Again, wow, Food, you got things entirely wrong with the quote about Marx. I wonder, will you admit you were wrong, or will you hope that no one notices, a hope already gone?

        Unsurprisingly, you also see to have no idea what philosophy Marx advocated. It’s not what Stalin invented and again, he was a megalomaniac. Big C communism makes a very small number of people very powerful. It says that these people are to be obeyed no matter what. People saw it as a savior from the harm that the divine right of kings brought them in the form of the tsars.
        Now, hmm, where have I seen these ideas before? Oh yes, in the bible, where it says that one must obey those in power no matter what with no questions at all (Romans 13) and obey the religion because it will save you from your current woes. So we have two competing institutions that say “You must obey us no matter what. You must obey to be saved”. And you are quite correct, one can’t have two such institutions at once, one must try to destroy the other. That’s what religions do all of the time.

        You are also quite correct in that Christianity wasn’t completely destroyed in those countries. It changed just like it has before, again, evidence of its completely human origins. It became a way for people believe that another savior was coming. And now the Orthodox church has Putin’s blessing. Convenient, isn’t it?

        As for Christianity being greater and more powerful, there is the problem of what Christianity you are talking about. Do you consider Roman Catholics to be Christians? Mormons? Jehovah’s Witnesses? The Westboro Baptist Church? Unitarians? Is sola scriptura the only way to go or not? If you do not find these sects to be Chrisitan, and many TrueChristians don’t, then the Christianity you are talking about isn’t greater or more powerful. It’s more and more fractured. It always is entertaining when a Christian insists how great and powerful his/her religion is but then whines about how persecuted they are. Which is it, Food? The only thing I fear about Christianity is the actions of some of its members. Some are quite nice people and don’t need to threaten others and have sadistic puerile fantasies. Some aren’t nice people at all and are all about the need for fear and ignorance.

      • So Marxism and Communism are two different things? To claim that the Russian Revolution was not inspired by Marx and to write, as you do, that Atheism was not at the heart of this philosophy is revisionism of the worst possible kind. The development of the Russian Revolution saw the emergence of such organisations as ‘The Union of Militant Atheists’, under Lenin, and ‘The Godless Union’ under Stalin. As early as 1918 religion was suppressed with even Christians being banned from teaching. Dissident Soviet author and winner of the Templeton Prize, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, had his own verdict on the ‘ruinous Revolution that has swallowed up some 60 million of our people…Men have forgotten God; that’s why it happened’.

    • Atheists aren’t afraid of christianity or any other religion/voodoo/devil worship etc.

      What atheists don’t like is some people’s views about a bunch of myths affecting other people’s lives: homosexuals, women’s rights, indoctrinating children, invading other countries, do I need to continue?

    • EftS-
      I can’t top Club’s thorough response to you. For me, however, it’s in the definition of faith. Simply put, faith is belief – or ‘spiritual apprehension’ – without proof/evidence. Since I have never seen any evidence of the supernatural, I cannot believe in it. It makes no sense to me. It’s wishful thinking and speculation taken to the extreme.

      What would atheists have to be afraid of, precisely?

      • Carmen, Yes, faith does not require material or scientific evidence or it would not be faith. This does not mean that faith is unintelligent because it is based upon an understanding of Scripture and the message revealed therein. I would argue that as an atheist you too have faith. As I cannot scientifically prove there is a God, so you cannot disprove him by science alone. Even Evolution, a prime tenant of atheism, is a theory belonging to historical science which has never been proved. It requires a certain faith in the unknown to believe in evolution. Therefore we are similar in that we have faith. I believe in God as he is revealed in scripture you believe in the claims of science, some of which have never been proven. Don’t knock the power and reality of faith when you too are a believer in something…

      • I’m not going to go into the problems associated with believing things are true because they are written in the Bible. The Bible was written BY men FOR men, and those men were scientifically-ignorant, primitive, and from a completely different time period. No one knows who wrote the Bible, no one knows what’s true and what’s not, and it can and should be considered myth; definitely not truth. Historical fiction would be a generous description.

        No, I don’t have faith and neither does any other atheist. Unless you’re talking about trust in the scientific method, which has been seen to be a reliable method for establishing scientific facts. Faith is for religious people, in lieu of proof for their imaginings. Your perception is determined by faith. Mine is determined by scientific inquiry.

        You speak of evolution being a theory much like a guess or a hunch. To scientists, a theory is an explanation of some feature of the world that meets three requirements: it is supported by evidence, is testable and falsifiable, and can be used to make predictions. You might want to read through the hundreds of thousands of bits of evidence from biologists, palaeontologists, geneticists, zoologists, and others — evolution is a FACT. It’s how we got here – we evolved. (and are still evolving) To deny it and suggest ‘goddidit’ (which ONE?) is – again – your perception, clouded by wishful thinking.

        One thing I will tell you is that your delusions aren’t unique. I suggest you do some digging, as I did. Education is a wonderful thing. (Of course, I’d say that – I’m a teacher!)

        Internet – where religion goes to die.

      • For a scientific thoroughly modern individual you have made some sweeping general unsubstantiated statements; “No- one knows who wrote the bible.” “The writers were scientifically ignorant”: Really! The bible said the earth was circular long before it was claimed the earth was flat. You should read Isaiah 40. The Bible supports the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics – that matter is running down, that the world will end. I too have weighed the evidence, considered the facts available but my conclusion is different from yours. That there was a man called Jesus who died and rose again. That the witness statements were sufficient to convince a great many people and to enable the preservation of the New Testament Text. You have taken aboard your data to draw the conclusion that Evolution is a fact and that God is a myth. I have taken the data available from Scripture to draw the conclusion that God is a fact. Ultimately God is known because he is experienced. I have experienced his presence and his peace. I pray that you will share in this one day. It has been a delight to share my faith with you Carmen.

      • Food, you have just proven that individual delusion is very powerful, indeed.
        Oh, and someone said,”I’ve never seen faith move mountains, but I have seen what it can do to skyscrapers.” 🙂

      • Food, the bible had no idea that the world was a sphere. You are lying and it’s quite easy to google the information about what the bible actually claims about the world:

        Having a fixed, flat surface and a vault above it, which doesn’t work with a sphere or a heliocentric solar system. Job 9:6, Job 22:14, Genesis 1:6-8, Psalm 148:4, Isaiah 40:22, Amos 9:6, Psalm 104:5, Job 38:14, etc.

        Claims that one really big tree or mountain could see all, and be seen by all of the earth, something impossible on a sphere: Daniel 4:10-11, Matthew 4:8.

        We even have Christians insisting that the earth is flat: http://www.philipstallings.com/2015/06/the-biblical-flat-earth-teaching-from.html Yep, he’s a very silly man. But indeed, so are you Food. Which silly man shall we believe? Neither of you have any evidence for your very ridiculous claims.

        There are some books that no one has any idea who wrote. For example, Genesis and the rest of the Pentateuch. Many Christians claim that Moses wrote it. Nothing to show that all, especially that last part when Moses is dead but we still have the author around noting this.

        The bible supports the Second Law of Thermodynamics because people can observe how energy moves. One wonders why this god couldn’t have gotten the first and third laws in the bible, since those are just as important and surprise aren’t as easy to just observe. For that matter, where’s the information that bacteria and viruses can cause disease? This god can give a ludicrous magic spell to supposedly heal leprosy but can’t just have said “for My’s sake, wash your hands!” Yep, the world will end. Not a way your bible says in its myths. No magical god reigning for an aeon and no colluding with Satan to corrupt faithful Christians.

        Your ignorance of simple facts demonstrates that no, you haven’t considered the evidence at all. You regurgitate nonsense from other Christians and haven’t a clue what facts are out there. You depend on ignorance to retain your faith. There is no evidence that there was a man named Jesus Christ. There is no evidence that this man died and resurrected. Christians can’t even agree on where this supposed emptied tomb is. Funny how one can lose the one major site of your religion. Claims by people can easily get others to believe them, and even get them to die for these beliefs, see People’s Temple and the Heaven’s Gate people. Scientology is being preserved too, Food, does that mean it’s just as true as your bible? Per your own logic, yep it is and we can all believe that Xenu brought people to the earth in space going DC9s and blew up volcanoes with H-bombs. I would hope, that if you did think about these things, you would have come up with the reasons why your claims don’t work on your own. However, you’ve unfortunately bought into the nonsense of “”Hey, the religion I just happen to have been taught as a kid, that’s believed by the people I’m closest to, that I like the best is infallibly true because it’s what I choose to believe, and I can’t ever, ever be wrong about it!” –kcrady (all of you heathens, I think you’ll love kcrady, if I haven’t introduced him to you before. Here’s another one of his posts on the Why Won’t God Heal Amputees forum)

        Again, Food, you have yet to show that your version of Christianity is the right one. Dale has yet to do the same. You offer the same excuses as the theists of other religion and I don’t believe them either. You’ve retreated to the “experienced” claim because you know you have nothing else, but again neither do the other theists who say that one has to experience their god too.
        And one more Christian who is praying for us atheists. Hmm, Food, we have Christians who say prayers are answered, getting what you want, and we have Christians who say that prayers might not be answered, or something else might happen, or that no prayers are really needed since predestination is the actual truth, etc. Hmmm, who is right this time?

      • “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,”, a circle is a sphere is it not, Isaiah 40v22, or is my geometry worse than my grammar (at least when I responding in WordPress. The bible does not say there was a fixed flat surface above the earth. If the earth is round the firmament which covered the earth was also round. I don’t see the problem. I have read the references you quote, it is doubtful you even read them because there is not a shred of evidence that the bible teaches a flat earth. As for the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. I am glad you admit the Bible got this right. You dismiss this because you imply this law is common sense. If it is so common sense why was this law not formulated until 1852 when William Thompson, Lord Kelvin, set forth his 3 propositions. This law, to which no exceptions have been observed, indicate that the universe is running down and that it will die as the Bible prophesies. Furthermore Lord Kelvin was a devout Christian who wrote: ” When we comprehend the vastness of the dimensions of that part of creation of which we know a little, and yet consider what an infinitesimal portion that is of the whole universe, how insignificant a being we must feel that , man is and how grateful ought we to be that God should still be mindful of him and visit him, and for the gifts and the constant care bestowed on him by the Creator of all.”. I thank you for taking the time to respond to my points and for correcting my grammar; tenet and tenant: I had a laugh at that too😀

      • Food, for all of the claims that Christians don’t require evidence, why are so many of you so desperately looking for evidence to show that your religion is true? Why do apologists spend huge amounts of time trying to convince non-TrueChristians that their version is true with bastardizations of science, attempt at logic, archaeology, etc?

        Faith, in the religious context, is belief in things that have no evidence for them. Most, if not all, theists have this kind of faith since they have no evidence for their gods. As my compatriots here have pointed out, we do not have that kind of “faith” in science. We have reason to trust it because it works e.g. evidence. One can indeed use the scientific method to support or not support your version of the Christian god. The bible claims that this god can be tested e.g. Ezekiel, Gideon, and God says to test him in the OT. This god has defined characteristics. Now, we can apply the scientific method, which is (grossly simplified) ask a question, do research, construct a hypothesis, test/observe. Results match hypothesis? Great, you’ve got a theory. Answers don’t? Start again. So, we have a question: does the god of the bible exist? Then we can do research like is there any evidence for the claims made about this god. If not, why? This is where the hypothesis comes in. Mine is: there is no god as in the bible. This is based on the evidence found so far. I look for more evidence. Still nothing. It seems my hypothesis is holding very well. Now, contrast that with a Christian approaching this. We start with the same question, and there is no evidence. Christians come up with many many different reasons why there is no evidence. And the hypothesis is “there is a god as in the bible *and* fill_in_the_blank_with_excuse”, just like most, if not all, other theists. So, Food, your claim fails. You can’t show your god exists in anyway at all. It’s just a baseless claim just like the claims of other theists.

        You realize the value of the scientific method because you benefit from it everyday. Of course you are a hypocrite. Evolutionary theory is not a “tenant” of atheism (btw, the correct word is “tenet”. A tenant is someone who rents an apartment, among other things). It is a known effect and you benefit from it everyday too. It’s hilarious that you use the claim “historical science”, a common silliness used by creationists who want to claim we can’t know anything we didn’t see personally. Funny how they forget that applies to their claims about their god and its supposed activities too. Alas for you, we can see the results of evolution, and thus have evidence it has happened. It requires no faith at all, only the scientific method. Unless, of course, you want to play the “last Tuesday” game, where we can all pretend that nothing existed before last Tuesday and all of the evidence we have that it did is to be ignored because we don’t want to believe it because someone told us we were special if we did believe it. You believe in a god you invented from what you picked and chose from a pile of books written a thousand or more years ago. Every other Christian does the same and funny how you don’t agree or can show that your version is the correct one.

        It always fascinates me that Christians commonly try to “but but you have faith too” which does nothing more than show you find the concept silly too, if you find it something to criticize.

      • Hahaha! Faith is smart becuz we haz a majick book!

        Yep, that will win us all over… Faith is a con, a sham, an afterlife insurance policy with no guarantees of the payoff. Some buy it all. Hook, line and sinker.

        Evolution, unlike faith, has no need of belief. It only need be understood. There is quite a difference there, the likes of you will never see. To understand the realities of this world it often helps to shed your superstitions first. You have yet to achieve step one.

  7. It is funny that uphold “Faith” as a positive attribute(and when called on it, they try bendy definition games) Faith, in the context of all supernatural claims is just a polite term for ” doesn’t care what is actually true”

    • No, you’re not the only one. I did a double take, as well. And for some weird reason, my mind always parses ColorStorm as Colostrum.

  8. “So Marxism and Communism are two different things? To claim that the Russian Revolution was not inspired by Marx and to write, as you do, that Atheism was not at the heart of this philosophy is revisionism of the worst possible kind. The development of the Russian Revolution saw the emergence of such organisations as ‘The Union of Militant Atheists’, under Lenin, and ‘The Godless Union’ under Stalin. As early as 1918 religion was suppressed with even Christians being banned from teaching. Dissident Soviet author and winner of the Templeton Prize, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, had his own verdict on the ‘ruinous Revolution that has swallowed up some 60 million of our people…Men have forgotten God; that’s why it happened’.”

    Man you have no shame in your lying, do you? Well, of course you have no shame in your lying…you keep doing so and don’t seem to get why its wrong.

    Marxism and Communism ARE two different things, just as religion, Judaism, Christianity, and Catholicism are different things. Even Communism has two differing meanings. Communism, as practiced by late 2nd century Christians is different that Communism of Soviet Russia in the 1970s. To write as YOU do that Atheism is a the heart of his philosophy is to not actually pay attention to both the writings of Marx, because religion or lack thereof is a minor point compared to the economic aspect, and that “Liberation Theology” which is a Christian variation on Marxism. Why atheism was emphasized fairly strongly in the early aspects of the Russian revolution has everything to do with the church being generally supportive of the Czars and was pushed further under Stalin as a possible threat to his absolute power, just like every other institution he didn’t control. As far as I am concerned, any philosophy that puts dogma above evidence is, in essence, a religion. And Stalinist Communism certainly qualifies.

  9. Rather than answer each of your posts, I’m making one large one. Food’s words are in italics. Doug has already shown the nonsense of Food’s claims about communism.
    Yes indeed, Religion is the Opium of the people, according to Marx. This logically was the basis upon which Communism persecuted faith. Atheism was the motivator. Yo deny this is to deny a huge chunk of 20th Century history!

    Food, just because you claim something is “logical” doesn’t make it magically that way. Please do show how you came to your conclusion. And nice attempt to try to pretend you didn’t try to lie about what Marx actually said, which invalidates your claim. You just invented another bit of nonsense to try to cover your mistake up. We have you insisting that Marxism is the opium the people and trying to build an argument on that and now trying to build an argument on another bit of nonsense. Your claims contradict each other so which is the one you want to go with?

    So Marxism and Communism are two different things? To claim that the Russian Revolution was not inspired by Marx and to write, as you do, that Atheism was not at the heart of this philosophy is revisionism of the worst possible kind. The development of the Russian Revolution saw the emergence of such organisations as ‘The Union of Militant Atheists’, under Lenin, and ‘The Godless Union’ under Stalin. As early as 1918 religion was suppressed with even Christians being banned from teaching. Dissident Soviet author and winner of the Templeton Prize, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, had his own verdict on the ‘ruinous Revolution that has swallowed up some 60 million of our people…Men have forgotten God; that’s why it happened’.

    Again, Food, yes, Marxism and big C communism are indeed different things. They do have some common points but that doesn’t prevent them from being different ideas. I did not claim that the Russian revolution wasn’t inspired by Marx and what is communism, something different from what Stalin invented aka big “C” communism, with the attributes of persecution, megalomania, etc. If you want to attack Marx, then you attack the philosophy of communism (see, no capital C) that Jesus Christ advocates, the sharing of wealth, helping the poor, etc. I don’t care what Solzhenitsyn claimed (lots of people have won that prize for doing nothing) . What I am asking for is evidence for what you have claimed. Incidentally, the Templeton Foundation does little more more than try support its particular version of Christianity by wasting money funding such things like trying to pretend that science and religion are compatible.

    “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,”, a circle is a sphere is it not, Isaiah 40v22, or is my geometry worse than my grammar (at least when I responding in WordPress. The bible does not say there was a fixed flat surface above the earth. If the earth is round the firmament which covered the earth was also round. I don’t see the problem. I have read the references you quote, it is doubtful you even read them because there is not a shred of evidence that the bible teaches a flat earth. As for the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. I am glad you admit the Bible got this right. You dismiss this because you imply this law is common sense. If it is so common sense why was this law not formulated until 1852 when William Thompson, Lord Kelvin, set forth his 3 propositions. This law, to which no exceptions have been observed, indicate that the universe is running down and that it will die as the Bible prophesies. Furthermore Lord Kelvin was a devout Christian who wrote: ” When we comprehend the vastness of the dimensions of that part of creation of which we know a little, and yet consider what an infinitesimal portion that is of the whole universe, how insignificant a being we must feel that , man is and how grateful ought we to be that God should still be mindful of him and visit him, and for the gifts and the constant care bestowed on him by the Creator of all.”. I thank you for taking the time to respond to my points and for correcting my grammar; tenet and tenant: I had a laugh at that too

    A sphere is not a circle. You can know this easily by asking one question: which one has volume? V=4/3 pi r (cubed). Your ignorance of so very many subjects is indeed breathtaking. The bible does say that the earth has a fixed flat surface, and I quoted the verses. Let me guess, you didn’t even try to look at them, depending again on ignorance to keep your baseless claims believable to yourself. Why you would bother lying about something that anyone can read in the bible is beyond me, especially when websites like biblegateway.com exist that you can search on keywords. The bible says the firmament was a vault, which is not round but a form of arch. And arches have flat bottoms. It’s no surprise you don’t see a problem since you have no clue what the bible actually says, and make up nonsense wholesale. But let me show what the verses did say since I was sure you’d try to pull a stunt like this. You’ve gone from being given the benefit of the doubt and simply considered ignorant to being a liar who has been presented with the evidence and making up false claims about it in order to benefit. For a TrueChristian, it seems you also haven’t a clue what your bible says about lying and liars. You might want to read Romans 3.
    Job 9:6 – He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble.
    Kjv: 6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

    Pillars make something quite fixed. I suppose you could put them on a sphere, sticking out like a ball with feet. Again, it’s fixed in place. I added the KJV version since I suspect you may be a KJV-onlyist.

    Job 22:14 – Thick clouds veil him, so he does not see us as he goes about in the vaulted heavens.
    Kjv: 14 Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.

    A vault is a term that indicates a roof over something with a floor. Again fixed and flat. A circuit is a line, no volume.

    Genesis 1:6-8 – And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
    Kjv: And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day
    Same here.

    Psalm 148:4 – Praise him, you highest heavens and you waters above the skies.
    Kjv: Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

    If the bible was considering a spherical world, then above is not the correct word. The correct word would be “around”.

    Isaiah 40:22 – He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
    Kjv: It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

    Again, a circle is not a sphere (that volume thing, you know). One doesn’t spread a canopy over a sphere like a tent, something that has a covering and a flat floor. One can envelope a sphere, if you want to have the “heavens” on all sides. That’s not what the bible says.

    Amos 9:6 – he builds his lofty palace in the heavens and sets its foundation on the earth;
    Kjv: 6 It is he that buildeth his stories in the heaven, and hath founded his troop in the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name. (honestly, I have no idea what the heck this is supposed to mean or how Christians translators get such completely different results).

    A foundation is dependent on a fixed site.

    Psalm 104:5 – He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
    KJV: “Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.”

    Never be moved. Sure sounds rather fixed in place. A clear example where you have chosen to lie.

    Job 38:14 – The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
    Kjv: 14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
    Plus: That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
    Clay under a seal flattens, Food. Of course, you can tell us how you think it acts. Does it become a ball? And where are the “ends” of a sphere?

    Let’s add a couple more. I’ll dispense with the kjv version.

    1 Chronicles 16:30 – Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved
    And who can forget the nonsense in Joshua where the sun and moon are claimed to move around the fixed earth and where they supposedly stopped. And which also says that this god obeyed a human “Sun, stand still over Gibeon, and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”13 So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies,as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the LORD listened to a human being.”

    What will the excuse be? That these bits aren’t literal?

    It’s rather notable that you can’t explain how one is supposed to see something on one side of a sphere from the other. Please do so, Food. But you can’t, can you? I do wonder about someone who feels they must lie and does it when they supposedly believe that it can end them up in hell. Or do you think you get special dispensation to lie repeatedly, Food? For so many Christians whining that atheists consider their god a vending machine, what does it say when you think you can do something it hates repeatedly and still expect to be forgiven?

    The bible only happened to get the second law somewhat right. Again, it is because humans can observe how energy works, and the laws of physics do not support the nonsense end of the world put for by your myths. No angels calling forth disaster, no magical nonsense at all. So, we have you wanting to run to science to make your religion sound valid, but you ignore that your religion has nothing to do with science at all. It’s a common tactic by ignorant Christians and again it depends on the ignorance of the claimant and the listener/reader. Happily, in this information age, such tactics don’t work near as well as they used to.

    Equations are not needed to know how something works, Food. Physical laws exist long before anyone comes along and quantifies them. As for your bible reflecting the second law, it doesn’t since, surprise!, it makes the claims of magic, including the multiple resurrections of dead people. Again, nice try to use science to make yourself feel more valid, but you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

    Lots of people make false claims about their religion, Food, including Lord Kelvin, Isaac Newton, etc. Humans are very good at compartmentalizing, and not applying their rigorous thoughts about science to their ridiculous myths. Kelvin, and you and so many other Christians, forget that other religions make the same baseless claims about how *their* god is the one and only creator. Still waiting for evidence of that.

    Indeed, why does an omnipresent god have to visit anything? How can it? And what gifts has this god given? Let me guess, you’ll prate on about how great your god and your god alone gave life. Evidence? You’ll prate on about how this god gave us the knowledge of modern medicine. Then this god must rather hate those who had the temerity to up and die from things he could have saved them from if only he had “given” the knowledge of antibiotics. He must have hated amputees before oh, about twenty years ago when we started having artificial limbs that were useful. He must have really hated people before he “gave” the idea of anesthetic, and funny how some Christians were against that because they were sure that this god meant for mankind to suffer no matter what.

    • Additionally, the Hebrew language has a word to describe a sphere, and it’s used in Isaiah 22:18 (hover the cursor over “like a ball” for a short pop-up description, or right click on the text for the complete definition); so it’s odd that the author would forgo it’s use when describing the earth.

    • Club; your exegesis is wrong on two points:

      1:. The Hebrew word translated ‘firmament’ means an expanse. It has nothing to do with an arch shape requiring a flat bottom.

      2:. The Hebrew word ‘chug’ translated circle referrs to a circular shape. Yes I am aware there is a difference between a one dimensional circle and a sphere. But a sphere is not excluded by ‘chug’. It is difficult to imagine Isaiah seeing the world as a one dimmensional shape otherwise man would be unable to live and inhabit it.

      These are examples of atheists going to the most extraordinary lengths to manipulate scripture and run from the inevitable.

      The fool says “No God”

      • I can assure you that we are far from fools.

        You believe that a sky-daddy waved a magic wand and created the earth and everything in it. That a man was born of a woman whom the invisible sky-daddy impregnated, and then that same man got ‘beamed up’ to a place called heaven, after he was offered as a human sacrifice because that sky-daddy decided the people it had created were misbehaving. Oh, and those were the same people that it made ‘in his image’.

        Who’s the fool?

      • 1. Circles and spheres

        “Some evangelicals claim that the Bible contains at least three references to a spherical earth (Is. 40:22; Job 22:14; Prov. 8:27). But this is just wishful thinking and an obvious imposition of modern cosmology on the Hebrew world-view. The Hebrew word hug used here cannot be translated as sphere (which is rendered by a different word), but must again be interpreted as a solid vault overarching the earth. Therefore I follow the Anchor Bible translation of Is. 40:22: “God sits upon the dome of the earth.” Job 22:14 says that God “walks on the vault (hug) of heaven,” again suggesting something solid. Hug can also refer to the circular perimeter of the sky-dome: “He drew a circle (hug) on the face of the deep…and made firm the skies above” (Prov. 8:27-28).”

        The Three-Story Universe ~(N. F. Gier (Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho, Moscow)

        2. Jesus’ cosmological ignorance

        “Immediately after the anguish of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will give no light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.” Matthew 24:29 NLT

        “the sun will be darkened”

        Not any time soon. The sun has ~5 billion years of fuel left.

        “the moon will give no light”

        The moon reflects light, but gives off no light of its own.

        “the stars will fall from the sky”

        This is an absurd proposition given that:

        – the Sun is a main sequence star. It can fit ~1.3 million planet Earths inside of it.
        – Eta Carinae is over five million times larger than our sun
        – Betelgeuse is 300 times larger than Eta Carinae
        – VY Canis Majoris is one billion times larger than our sun.
        – the closest star (Alpha Centauri) is 4.2 light years away
        – the next 19 closest stars are anywhere from 5.9 to 12 light years away

        “and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.”

        More absurdities.

        3. “The fool hath said…”

        The word nabal (translated as “fool”) in Psalms 14:1 & 53:1 means wicked and impious. Moreover, the second part of the verse claiming “there is no one who does good” is empirically falsified on a daily basis by the multitude of non-believers who do indeed do good.

        And just to be snarky…

        In Isaiah 45:5 Yahweh boldly proclaims “apart from me there is no God”, which makes him both an atheist and a fool. 🙂

      • Hmm, why is it that so many Christians insist on calling others fools, when your supposed savior says this is a no-no? Matthew 5:22 And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. Of course, calling people fools is done often by supposedly godly people in the bible, so one has to wonder if those fellow are in hell or not. But it’s no surprise to find yet one more contradiction in the bible.

        You were obviously unaware of a difference between a circle and a sphere when you asked what the difference was and had no idea
        “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,”, a circle is a sphere is it not, Isaiah 40v22, or is my geometry worse than my grammar (at least when I responding in WordPress. “ (my bold)

        , so again your ignorance is amazing. you’ve been shown how you’ve failed by friends here. Now, I wonder if you are honest enough to own up to your failure and what your bible actually says, not what you have invented. For all of your claim of atheists trying to manipulate scripture, it is not the atheists doing that at all. It’s you. You are the one who made the false claim that the bible didn’t say that the earth was fixed and were shown to be completely wrong. Why did you choose to lie, Food? It is always most curious when a Christian would do this when the book he claims as a moral truth says that lying is very very bad thing.

  10. Yes, the evidence abounds. I have given you plenty. You are just not really, honestly seeking it, because if you were, you would see it! You KNOW that God IS real, because you (and Ark) get so uptight & self-righteous and in such strong denial when the truth is presented to you. And you dismiss everything that I or any other Christian says about God, because you don’t want it to be true! In fact, it is funny to see you or any unbeliever attempt to negate the truth of God’s Word by denial or any other means available.

    Satan hates you, and has “blinded” the eyes of non-believers, because he (satan) wants to make it harder for you to see the truth, because he knows his time is short, and as the saying goes, misery loves company. he knows his future, and he wants to destroy as many people as he can. And he is having great success in his plans. (Unless you repent, satan has you- hook, line, & sinker…) His tactics are effective, and so he hasn’t changed them since Adam & Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden. He has only re-packaged his same old tricks in modern looking wrappers for today. That is why satan is so pleased with how popular his lies of evolution have become, because evolution removes God from the issue of our beginnings! Everything God has that is good, satan has an evil counterfeit version of, to get people to doubt God. And his lies have seduced you to doubt & deny God and the Bible, and everything else about God.

    God would open your eyes to all the things you are missing, IF you would really seek Him, because God Loves You, and wants you to repent of your sins, and see the truth! The Bible IS 100& True & Correct and Honest. You are apparently happy living in the darkness, because there your sins are hidden to all except God! Everything I said about the Bible is true and correct. Every single word! And if you don’t repent, you will find out that it is true the hard way, when you are kneeling before the very God that you so vehemently deny the existence of. And you will confess that JESUS IS LORD! Nothing I have ever said is a threat, but rather a promise! But, to you and all the others that deny God, it is an offence, because Jesus & The Bible ARE very offensive to the unsaved! That was one reason why they killed Jesus back then, because He condemned the sin in people.

    You can laugh and mock God all you want, that is your choice. I am sure I am not the first or only one to share Jesus with you, and inform you of the truth, and when you and Ark and the others that reject God are kneeling before God at the Great White Throne Judgement, God will open up The Book of Life, and His other books, and you will be reminded of every time you heard the Gospel message (like now) and every single other thing you have ever done in your life, AND why you did what you did, and you will have a chance to answer for your actions (You will meet God, one on one) and then when you see that your name is not found in the Book of Life, you will then understand how wrong you were, and how Righteous & Just God is, and realise that you yourself are getting what you deserve, and you will understand that it is YOU & YOU ONLY that got yourself a one way trip to the Lake of Fire, Forever! Know this, that God designed the Eternal Hell for the devil & His angels only, and not for humans, but due to the constant rejection of God by mankind, that He let people go to eternal torment. If you have kids, then you know that real love requires discipline or punishment for wrongdoings. You wouldn’t just let your kids run wild and do whatever they want, right? I would be sure you have some form of correction for your kids if they mess up, because otherwise they would just get worse & worse, if you don’t give them some form of discipline. That’s how God is, He set the standards, and if we don’t follow them, then there will be consequences!
    But know this, The ONLY sin that will get anyone into hell is the continuous, lifelong rejection of Jesus payment of the penalty of your sins (not accepting Jesus as your Lord & Savior) Every other sin is forgivable by God, IF you really love Him, and desire to live for Him! Again, this is NOT a “threat” but a promise of how it will be.
    Again, you are free to do what you will with this, because God’s Word will not return to Him null & void. His Word will accomplish exactly what God intended for it to do. I can most assuredly and with total confidence tell you that God’s Word IS 100 % True & Correct, 100% of the time! And the Bible is Completely Honest. Even to the point of revealing the flaws of His people, because that way we will know that God can & does use us flawed people to carry out His plans, and so we know that anyone can serve God,if they really want to.
    So, believe it or not, God DOES Love you more than you love yourself, and He wants you all to Repent of your sins & turn to Jesus, while you still can! Because once you take your last breath here on Earth, your choice is made, and it is not changeable
    You are free to choose your own path, but you are NOT free from the consequences of your choices!!!

    • thanks for commenting, Dale. I’ll be back to demonstrate how your claims are no more true here than on Ark’s blog. Others are of course welcome to chime in.

      Capitalization and using all caps still doesn’t make your nonsense true.

      • Thanks for having this blog post. You have not demonstrated anything that negates the truth of the Bible’s facts, other than your misunderstandings of the Bible, and that you do not believe anything the Bible says, because God didn’t answer your prayers the way you wanted Him to. You should not try to blame God, because His ways are much higher than our ways!
        It sounds like you have hardened your heart against God for whatever reasons you have. I do not know, and I am certainly not “judging” you for anything, so please do not take my comments as such.
        God does not owe an explanation of His ways to anyone. There are a lot of mysteries about God that nobody will understand this side of Eternity!
        But a lot of people have an imaginary concept of what they think God should be like, and that god is not the way God really is!

      • I have repeatedly shown that the bible is wrong in many instances, Dale. Where is the evidence for the flood? Exodus? Why did no one notice a day where the sky darkened during the daylight hours, there was a major earthquake or the dead walking around in Jerusalem?

        Again, dale, the bible disagrees with you and it says that prayers will be answered as said, quickly and without condition. why does a Christian claim his bible is lying?

        I have not hardened my heart at all. I prayed for help when I was losing my faith. I got nothing. And your bible again says it is not a person who hardens their heart, but this god that hardens it without their control.

        It’s so sweet to watch a Christian insist he is not judging me when that’s all he is doing, Dale. Do you think your god so stupid to be deceived by your claims? I know it doesn’t exist but you seem to think you can fool it. That’s quite funny.

        I know the Christian god doesn’t owe anyone an explanation to anyone; it doesn’t exist. But Christians like you try to give explanations why this god does things, and funny how all of you disagree on the reasons. You, Dale, like most if not all Christians, want to claim that you and you alone know what the “right” concept of God is. But none of you have any more evidence than the next that you are right.

        Now, I offer you a challenge. You can show me that your version is the right one. Your god was all about a challenge in Ezekiel. We can pick public spot, build a pair of altars and you can pray to your god to light it on fire. I will use a Zippo, which uses good ol’ physical laws. Or we can meet at a hospital (veterans or childrens would be my preference) and you can show how a true baptized believer in Christ can heal people. Again, your bible says these things are to be used as knowledge that this god exists. Will you meet me or will you insist that the bible is wrong again and make an excuse, self-editing the bible so you don’t have to admit it is wrong?

      • [@SailorDale] quote ” a lot of people have an imaginary concept of what they think God should be like, and that god is not the way God really is!”

        Winner winner, chicken dinner. Let the irony of that quote wash over you. Soak it in, grasshopper.

    • Sailor, Satan is a figment of your imagination and so is hell. . .that long torrent you just wrote is indicative of your state of mind. Get a grip. And some help.

      • We’ve already seen, Dale. You have nothing to support your claims, not even the agreement of other Christians, and again, your claims that people who don’t believe your nonsense are “just not really, honestly seeking it” are false, nothing more than the same claim made by any Muslim, Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon, etc. Your bible doesn’t even agree with your claims; two sets of nonsense that contradict each other. You have claimed that there is free will; the bible says otherwise. You say that prayers work but not as indicated in your bible, where it *does* say that one will get what is asked for e.g. a father would not give a child a snake if asked for a fish. You claim that your interpretation of this bible is the only right one, but again, nothing supports this. You claim that this god of yours never forces itself on anyone, but again, the bible itself indicates your claims are wrong and we have the examples of the pharaoh in the exodus myth, David’s son that this god murders in retribution for David’s sins, the god repeatedly interfering in human events and we have this god predicted to work with its supposed archenemy to again force its will on humans, to make sure that it gets one more bloodletting.

        Dale, if prophecy works, then there is no free will by default. Do you want to admit that prophecy is nonsense in the bible?

        It’s no surprise that you have nothing but saying “lol”. That’s where most discussions with theists end up, the theist having nothing but baseless threats “we shall see.” Ah, well, at least this time you didn’t use caps to pretend that makes what you wrote more “true”. Good job!

      • No, satan is true, and hell is real! It is you that needs to get some help.
        My state of mind is perfectly clear. You will find out the hard way that hell is real, and I hope you do decide to repent before it is too late for you!
        And, this is not any kind of threat, it is the truth…
        Dr. Jesus will see you now…

      • I am glad that you have liked (agreed with, support) my post that your claims are false, Dale. It is curious but it is your choice to do so.

        Again, evidence that Satan is real and hell is real? You see, Dale, that i’m not afraid of your threats and your sadistic fantasies, no more than you are of the threats of other religions that you are damned. And again, it’s a threat. Funny how you think you can lie to me, and to your god.

        Which Dr. Jesus, Dale? Your version? the idiots at the Westboro Baptist Church? The Mormons? The Jehovah’s Witnesses? The Roman Catholics? The Orthodox Christians? Again, waiting for you to show that your version of Christianity is the only right one.

    • As a parent, would grant gang members unfettered access to your children? If not, why would a loving and all-powerful god allow another entity to run amok deceiving people?

    • Let us send this through the “How your comment sounds to us” filter:

      The gibbering tribal shaman with a bone through his nose spoke thus:

      Yes, evidence abounds. I give you plenty. You just not really, honestly seeking it, because if you were, you would see it! You KNOW UGAGUGA real, because you (and Ark) get so uptight & self-righteous and in such strong denial when truth presented to you. And you dismiss everything I or any Shaman say about UGABUGA, because you don’t want it be true! In fact, it funny see you or any unbeliever attempt negate the truth of UGABUGA’s Ancient Scrolls by denial or any other means available.

      AGUBAGU hates you, and “blinded” eyes of non-believers, because he (Agubagu) want make it harder for you see truth, because he knows his time short, and as saying go, misery loves company. he knows his future, and he wants destroy as many people as he can. And he having great success in his plans. (Unless you repent, AGUBAGU has you- hook, line, & sinker…) His tactics effective, and so he not changed them since first two sinned in Garden of Lagoon. He only re-package his same old tricks in modern looking wrappers for today. Is why AGUBAGU so pleased with how popular his lies of evolution have become, because evolution removes UGABUGA from issue of our beginnings! Everything UGABUGA is good, AGUBAGU has evil counterfeit version of, to get people to doubt UGABUGA. And his lies have seduced you to doubt & deny UGABUGA and Ancient Scrolls, and everything else about UGABUGA.

      UGABUGA would open your eyes all things you missing, IF you would really seek Him, because UGABUGA Loves You, and wants you repent of your sins, and see truth! Ancient Scrolls 100& True & Correct and Honest. You apparently happy living in darkness, because there your sins hidden to all except UGABUGA! Everything I said about Ancient Scrolls is true and correct. Every single word! And if you not repent, you will find out that true the hard way, when you are kneeling before very god that you so vehemently deny existence of. And you will confess UGABUGA’S SON ON LAND, KING AGGA LORD! Nothing I have ever said is a threat, but rather a promise! But, to you and all the others that deny UGABUGA, it an offence, because King Agga & Ancient Scrolls ARE very offensive to unsaved! Was one reason why they killed King Agga back then, because He condemn sin in people.

      You can laugh and mock UGABUGA all you want, that your choice. I sure I not first or only one to share King Agga with you, and inform you of truth, and when you and Ark and the others that reject UGABUGA are kneeling before UGABUGA at Great White Throne Judgement, UGABUGA will open up Scroll of Life, and His other books, and you be reminded of every time you hear Ancient Scroll message (like now) and every single other thing you ever done in your life, AND why you did what you did, and you have a chance answer for your actions (You meet UGABUGA, one on one) and when you see your name not found in Scroll of Life, you then understand how wrong you were, and how Righteous & Just UGABUGA is, and realise that you get what you deserve, and you will understand it YOU & YOU ONLY got yourself one way trip to Unhappy Bad Place, Forever! Know UGABUGA designed Unhappy Bad Place for AGUBAGU & His spirits only, and not humans, but due constant rejection of UGABUGA by mankind, He let people go eternal torment. If you have kids, then you know real love require discipline or punishment for wrongdoings. You wouldn’t just let your kids run wild and do whatever they want, right? I sure you have some form of correction for your kids if they mess up, because otherwise they just get worse & worse, if you not give them some form discipline. That how UGABUGA is, He set standards, and if we not follow them, there consequences!
      But know this, The ONLY sin that will get anyone into Unhappy bad place is continuous, lifelong rejection of King Agga’s payment penalty your sins (not accepting King Agga as your Lord & Savior) Every other sin forgivable by UGABUGA, IF you really love Him, and desire live for Him! Again, this NOT a “threat” but promise how will be.
      Again, you free do what you will with this, because UGABUGA’s word will not return Him null & void. His Word accomplish exactly what UGABUGA intended for it do. I most assuredly and with total confidence tell you UGABUGA’s Word 100 % True & Correct, 100% of time! And Ancient Scrolls Completely Honest. Even to point revealing flaws of His people, because that way we know that UGABUGA can & does use us flawed people carry out His plans, and so we know anyone can serve UGABUGA ,if they really want to.
      So, believe or not, UGABUGA DOES Love you more you love yourself, and He want you all Repent of your sins & turn to King Agga, while you can! Because once you take your last breath here on Earth, your choices made, and it not changeable
      You are free choose your own path, but you NOT free from consequences your choices!!!

    • If the “evidence abounds”, why haven’t you given it, Dale? You have not given plenty, all you have given are claims that have nothing to support them. The bible is not evidence because it is the thing that makes the claims that you repeat or mangle. This holds true for the qu’ran, the holy books of Hinduism, the books of shadows that wiccans create for themselves, etc. A claim is “God exists and will get you if you don’t obey it”. Evidence is what supports that claim. What supports the bible’s claims, Dale? Where is the archaeological evidence that the essential events of the bible happened? where are the baptized believer in Christ doing miracles as promised by the bible? Most other religions make the same claims “X god exists and will get you if you don’t obey it” but again they don’t have evidence this is true.

      It is a shame that you must make more false claims that somehow you know that I am not “really honestly seeking” evidence. It is not true that if I were “really honestly seeking” evidence, I would automatically agree with you. Most, if not all, theists make that claim, that if someone was “really honestly seeking” the truth, then they simply must agree with them. Alas, none of you have any evidence that your claims are true. You don’t believe a competing theist for the same reasons I don’t, they have no evidence to support their claims. No, Dale, no matter how much you try to shout and throw a tantrum, I do not know that your god is real. Now, I could turn this around and point out that since you are so “uptight and righteous and in such strong denial” you really do know that Allah is real and Mohammed is his prophet. Now do you see how ridiculous your claims are? I dismiss what you claim about your god and your religion because you have no evidence, just like you dismiss everything every other theist says about their god and their religion because they have no evidence. It is not that I don’t want it to be true, there is no evidence it is true. If there was evidence that your god exists, then I would believe it, though there is no guarantee I would worship such a nasty entity as depicted in the bible.

      Satan doesn’t exist, Dale, but you are welcome to provide evidence that it does. You have no evidence your version of Christianity is any more true than any other versions or other religions. Again, you claim that the end times are a-comin’ and offer more threats as Christians have offered for millennia, still with no evidence of their god, much less evidence that there will be some magical accounting. However, I will ask you this: why does your god cooperate with Satan in the myth offered in Revelation? Why, after murdering all non-believers, and having itself/its son reign over the believers for an aeon, does this god find it required to allow Satan to be free to corrupt more people?

      You also attack evolutionary theory. That is no surprise. If it doesn’t work, Dale, then I do insist that you stop using antibiotics and modern foodstuffs, since they only exist because the principles of evolution hold true. Other Christians have no problem with evolutionary theory, content with believing that the nonsense in Genesis is just metaphor. Now, which TrueChristians shall we think have the truth, since none of you have any evidence for your claims? Also, you have yet to show your god is the creator god, and that no other gods are. It seems that you can’t do that either.

      I was a Christian so your claims that this god would open my eyes to things I am missing is simply untrue. Indeed, despite my prayers when I was losing my faith, I received nothing at all. Why would this be, Dale? Is it as your bible claims that some are damned from no fault of their own (Romans 9, and where JC claims he intentionally makes sure some people will never accept him)? If the claims of your bible are true, then your insistence that if I really seek God, I will get an answer is completely false. Why would a Christian contradict the bible if it is “100& True & Correct and honest” as you say? You also claim that this god loves me, but again where is the evidence and why does your god so thoroughly fail the definition of love in 2 Corinthians? I know what love is, thanks to my husband, family and friends. They don’t threaten me with eternal violence if I don’t obey them unquestioningly. That’s the actions of an abusive parent or spouse. Again, with evidence I might believe in your god, but there’s not much chance I would worship it.

      Tsk, more “promises” of violence, aka threats. And “they” didn’t kill Jesus. There is no evidence that Jesus existed, much less was murdered and resurrected. Nope, you aren’t the first to make claims about your religion, offer Pascal’s Wager and make claims that prayer does something. You have not informed me of the truth, only of a baseless opinion, just like every other theist who I’ve encountered. Again, your version of what happens at “judgement” isn’t what the bible says is true. So, what do we believe, Dale, you, or the bible? Or neither? As for love requiring discipline and punishment, yep, I think it does. What it doesn’t require is blind obedience nor eternal punishment. That’s where so many theists get tripped up, they want to claim that their god is a parent but forget that good parents don’t say “obey me without question or face eternal torture”. You are a sycophant, offering excuses for a tyrant.

      You are again wrong in what the only sin is that will get anyone into this sadistic fantasy of yours. That’s in the NT, where it says that blaspheming the Holy Spirit (whatever that actually means) is the one way to hell. That you don’t know this and offer your own opinion is most curious. You keep saying “this is how it will be”. Well, the bible promises a lot of things and they haven’t proven true either. Christians doing miracles as promised by JC: doesn’t happen. The city of Tyre being destroyed thousand of years ago and not being found again: didn’t happen. Bats are birds: not true. Hailstones in warehouses: doesn’t happen. Blood of pigeons curing leprosy: doesn’t work. Entire army of ancient Egypt destroyed and hundreds of thousands of Jews wandering around in a place half the size of Pennsylvania for 4 decades: no evidence at all. Etc, etc.

      Again, where does it say anything about free will in the bible, Dale? Why does it say repeatedly that people have no free will at all and this god picks and chooses, controls peoples actions and interferes in human events? Again, you contradict your bible: why should we believe you?

      • Well, it seems your mind is already made up, so I will not waste your time or mine with a long explanation.
        I will say in regards to free will, Remember, God knows everything that everyone will do, right up to the day you die. And He knows who will & will not chose Him. Even if someone rejects God all their life, then repents on their deathbed, God knows that, and He will let you live your life as you choose. So for your claims that God sends people to hell for doing nothing, that is not true! Because He knows if you choose to reject Him all your life, then that IS your Free will! And you have not “done nothing” , you have rejected God all your life, and He knew that you would do so.
        The one about modern medicines & foodstuffs being a “product of evolutionary theory” is 100% False! Because evolution is 100% False! The development of medicines & foods had nothing to do with evolution, that is just the lies the evolutionists preach, because they must falsify as much stuff as possible to get people to buy into the fairy tale myths & lies!
        Any christian that believes in evolution is compromising their faith to try and allow for evolutionary lies to fit their Bibles- and that will never work! Evolution is at war with God, and was invented to attempt to replace God in the Creation of everything. You can’t believe in both of them.
        Evolution must have billions or even trillions of years, because a long time is required to make the myth seem to come true! Every single “evidence” for evolution is really 1% true and 99% figment of someone’s imagination!
        Evolution is nothing but a science fiction fairy tale for people that can’t handle the truth that God IS Real!

        Jesus most certainly did exist , He was the single most important Person to ever walk the face of the Earth! That is why they changed the way we keep track of the years- BC and AD! Do you really think they would do that for someone that didn’t exist???
        You don’t believe the Bible because your god is a product of your own making. You are thinking of your god in human terms, so you are limiting Him and His abilities to do and create anything!
        EVERYTHING I said about the Bible is 100% Correct and True, 100% of the time! Take God out of your “box” and let Him be the God He is!
        I read your atheist story on your “Boss’s Office post.There are misunderstandings of the Bible there also. I don’t know you, but in reading your story, I would wonder if you really were a Christian or if you were just “playing Christian games” Again, I don’t know you, but usually in situations like that, a closer look reveals signs that the person never really was saved to begin with! If anyone is going to follow God, it must be on God’s terms, 100% or not at all. The Bible is not a smorgasbord that we can pick & choose, If we choose to follow God, we must follow God His way or not at all!
        Yes, that will be a turn-off to some, but that’s still your choice!

        The choice is yours, so choose wisely! Aloha!

      • Well, club, it seems we’ve got a garden-variety fundamentalist on our hands, eh? I would never have guessed. . . 🙂

      • Indeed. one more that is sure that his version is the one true way. Funny how that never seems to work out. More nonsense, more threats. I do feel sorry for these folks. It must be a horrible thing to be on one’s deathbed and realize that what they believed didn’t turn out to be true.

  11. Correction. The comment,” Marx famously described Marxism as the “opium of the people” , which Club understandably has made mileage of was a complete mistake, I actually intended to type “Religion”, The comment, however is erected around the premise that Marxism was opposed to religion and that the atheistic philosophy of Marxism inspired the communist purges. As for the New Testament advocating Communism. The Bible teaches commonality and sharing, totally different from the morally bankrupt ideology of Marxism, where a tiny minority ruled over and benefited from the majority.

    • Food,

      You’re still wrong. The ‘atheistic philosophy Marxism inspired the communist purges’ assertion is wrong. As I’ve pointed out to you already, there’s no such thing as an ‘atheistic philosophy’. Atheism means ‘disbelief in gods’ – it has no moral, philosophical, or political baggage. If you wanted to draw a parallel to your assertion, one could state that Hitler was religious (and publicly decried atheism), so his religious conviction must have inspired the slaughter of six million Jews. Do you think THAT’s true?

    • Well, Food, let’s see what you actually said:

      “Stalin was a Marxist. Marx famously described Marxism as “opium of the people” Marxism cannot exist alongside freedom of religion because Communist ideology deifies the state. The people are the outworking of the state; doing it’s will. Such a system of belief is opposed to Christianity. Therefore all Communist regimes on account of their atheism had to suppress Christianity in order to succeed. Interestingly Christianity continued to exist in those nations as history has demonstrated and after the Iron Curtain came down Communism collapsed but Christianity continues to this day. Christianity has proved to be greater and more powerful than atheism. Yes clubschadenfreude, you do well to fear Christianity, believing as you do.”

      Now you claim that you stating Marx said that Marxism was “the opium of the people” was a mistake. After several posts showing that you were wrong, not as soon as you were shown this. You of course proceeded to make more false claims, as pointed out by Doug. There is nothing here to show it was simply was a mistake, but one more attempt to attack Marx out of ignorance, a mistake, but a mistake that the reference to opium was some kind of admission by Marx.

      What you originally tried is this as a reply to the point you were wrong: “Yes indeed, Religion is the Opium of the people, according to Marx. This logically was the basis upon which Communism persecuted faith. Atheism was the motivator. You deny this is to deny a huge chunk of 20th Century history!”

      Not to admit it was an error, but to make more false claims. Now, if it was a mistake, then I admit I was wrong, but it doesn’t seem to be a mistake at all, especially considering that you have made false claim after false claim.

      However, you have yet to support your claims, Food. You made the claim that there is some logical relationship between Stalin’s actions and Marx’s words. I’m still waiting for that explanation, Food. And we have one more instance of your false claims. Let’s look at the definition of communism: a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed. (merriam-webster.com)

      It’s pretty hilarious to see you claim that the bible teaches “commonality and sharing” which is exactly what communism is. It’s also amusing, and a bit sad, to see you lie about Marx and demonstrate you haven’t a clue what he actually wrote. There is nothing where he supports the idea that, as you said, a “tiny minority ruled over and benefited from the majority”. He supported the end of the “state” and indicated the “state” was always the tool of the ruling class. Of course, you are more than welcome to support your claims with evidence. Again, you try to conflate big C communism, aka Stalinism, and communism. I suspect you won’t. You may have made a mistake in mangling Marx’s quote, but you show that is not likely the case with your continued nonsense.

  12. Food, something else has just occurred to me. You are doing your best, on this thread, to paint atheists in as negative a light as possible. (we’re used to it, believe me!) You – and most other believers – seem to focus on that ONE aspect of our personalities. You know nothing of our lives, nothing of the way we conduct ourselves on a daily basis, nothing of our humanitarian stances on issues. Now contrast our assertions to that of Sailor Dale.

    You’re automatically allied with that zealot because of your beliefs. Do think about that.

    • Thank You! I am proud to be a zealot for Jesus, or a Bible Thumper, or a Jesus Freak, or what ever else you want to use to describe my striving to be like Jesus!

      And you are right, we know nothing of your lives, other than how you all make such a big deal of someone that you claim doesn’t exist!

      And let’s take a count- How many Hospitals, schools, charities, and other service institutions are founded on a belief in Jesus, named after some saint or some religious person, and yet there is not one Atheist founded hospital, school, or charity…… They don’t exist, because atheists are usually (but not always) a selfish bunch!

      When will that Madeline Murray O’Hare hospital be opening? Lol….

      • Ever heard of Bill Gates? He’s donated 28 billion to charity. He’s an atheist. Google what he’s done for the poor worldwide. The religious are involved with philanthropy because it’s an opportunity to proselytize to a captive audience. The Salvation Army is a good example of crooked assholes gone wrong. http://exposingtsa.blogspot.com/2013/08/SAissues.html
        Secular, non-religious governments build municipal hospitals ALL THE TIME.
        The religious in early America weren’t in any rush to create any institutions for public welfare. Ben Franklin, inventor, ambassador to France and Founding Father managed to find more time than the entire American religious industry to develop the first fire department, public library, and even another hospital (founded in 1751). Catholic Hospitals are PUBLIC hospitals that are Catholic in name only. They’re in it for the profit, otherwise care there would be free. It isn’t.
        So to answer your question, “How many hospitals have atheists built?” >All of them unless they are funded outside the public sector<. Municipal hospitals are taxpayer funded, and WE pay taxes, unlike many of the religious.

        "And you are right, we know nothing of your lives," [SailorDale]

        And yet it doesn't seem to ever inhibit you from making false claims about atheists.

      • He’s quite typical of every zealot, persedeplume. He thinks he’s scoring points with his mythical god and paving his way to the heaven he imagines.

        Dream on, sailordale.

      • Yea, right! Bill Gates is an exception rather than the rule! And he only started his foundation when the Government was going after him for something, back in the ’90’s.
        The atheists have built very few of anything. You are stretching your facts, persedeplume…You make false claims about God and His Christians all the time!
        Nice try, but you fail!

      • As always, Dale, evidence or it becomes just one more intentionally told falsehood by you.

        It is no surprise that you make claims and have no evidence for them. You, like many theists, mistake a claim for the evidence that supports it. For example, you, and your bible make claims, a statement that something is true or false. What you need is the evidence to support that claim, to support its falseness or trueness. If you don’t have it, then there is no reason to believe your claims; just like you do not believe the claims of theists who don’t agree with you, including other Christians.

        For supposedly following a religion that repeatedly says that lies and lying are bad, many Christians go out of their way to lie. This indicates that they do not hold their religion to be true, especially since it says that lying *for* this god is also a very bad thing (Romans 3) and is not appreciated by this god at all (if it exists).

        I have no problem in accepting evidence that this god exists, if you can provide it. There is no guarantee I would worship it, since it is a rather vile entity as described in the bible. The problem is, Dale, is that you use the same poor arguments for your god as the theists you sure are wrong, just like us atheists. You want people not to point out that your god is just as imaginary as the god of Islam, Wicca, Hinduism, Mormonism, Shinto, etc.

        Now, we are still waiting for your evidence for your claims. Show that free will exists, and be sure to indicate where the bible says it does. Show that your claims about atheists and theists are true. Data has been given to you supporting claims. Now you are expected to do the same.

      • Who’s stretching what Dale?

        “As of 1999, 13% of all hospitals were religious (totaling 18% of all hospital beds); that’s 604 out of 4,573 hospitals. Of these 604 hospitals many are a product of mergers with public, non-sectarian hospitals.

        Despite the religious label, these so-called religious hospitals are more public than public hospitals. Religious hospitals get 36% of all their revenue from Medicare; public hospitals get only 27%. In addition to that 36% of public funding they get 12% of their funding from Medicaid. Of the remaining 44% of funding, 31% comes from county appropriations, 30% comes from investments, and only 5% comes from charitable contributions (not necessarily religious). The percentage of Church funding for Church-run hospitals comes to a grand total of 0.0015 percent.

        The claim that the religious build hospitals gives the illusion that the religious are more charitable than the secular, non-religious. With hospitals, at least, that isn’t the case. Every hospital writes off a certain percentage of medical revenue as charitable care. The religious hospitals aren’t the least charitable of hospitals, but they’re close to it. For-profit hospitals provided, on average, only 0.8% of their gross patient revenue as charity care; religious hospitals came in with 1.9%. On the other hand the secular non-profit hospitals had 2% and the godless secular public hospitals provided 5.1%.

        Of the 13% of religious hospitals, all of them are maintained by public funds. Those public funds are not paid for exclusively by the religious, they certainly aren’t supported by American churches. If the religious hospitals were to be truly religious and separated from secular governmental subsidies they would collapse. The question that the Christian apologist should be asked is, “Where are all the truly religious hospitals?” Slapping a Catholic or Methodist label upon a hospital wall isn’t sufficient enough to create a truly independent, private religious hospital free from Atheist support.”

        [excerpted from https://www.rationalresponders.com/how_many_hospitals_have_atheists_built%5D
        You should read: Uttley, L. J, “No strings attached: Public funding of religiously-sponsored hospitals in the United States,” Mergerwatch, 2002, p.10.
        I can find citations for my info Dale, how about you?

      • Sailordale is no different than all other fundamentalists encountered on blogs. He parrots what he hears his pastor exclaim, and is reluctant to research on his own. Dog forbid that he would actually do some digging to find factual information which would challenge his ‘religion is responsible for all things GOOD’ mantra. (Shared by many of them)
        You’d really think they’d want to exercise their free will in this regard. . .

      • That’s your opinion…and it is wrong, as usual. You can come up with numbers to say anything you want to say, just keep looking! That does not make them true or correct. Admit it, you are prejudiced against God, so you don’t want to believe anything that disagrees with your agenda!

      • No, it’s not my “opinion” Dale. Anything I write can easily be fact checked. Last I knew “Nuh-uh” isn’t a coherent rebuttal. If you want to demonstrate what I say isn’t true you’re going to have to actually do some work. I’ll wait. I’ll play a little elevator music to keep from being bored.
        ProTip about “your” god: I can’t be prejudiced about something that doesn’t exist.

      • If this is the case, surely you can come up with numbers too, Dale.

        One can also point out that you are prejudiced against Allah, or Vishnu or the Goddess, so you don’t want to believe in anything that disagrees with your agenda.

        Do you see how silly that sounds when you have nothing to support your claims?

      • No, Dale, you are nothing special. Many Christians make the claim, but none of you can do what is promised that a true baptized Jesus accepting Christian can do. There is no reason to believe you.

        AS usual, you depend on willful ignorance to bear false witness. I guess those commandments aren’t important to you either.

      • @sailordale

        What exactly is the “liberal agenda” of Amnesty International, Doctors Without Borders, Goodwill Industries, Kiva, Oxfam, PlanUSA, Tanzanian Children’s Fund, The Wheelchair Foundation and UNICEF?

  13. Because a loving parent does is leave instructions with a babysitter who is been know to not get things right and even lie, and if the kid hasn’t followed all of those instructions, when the father gets back home, what he does is shove them into the furnace in the basement and set them on fire, and never let them out. Because how else are they ever going to learn? Yeah, what a wise and loving parent that would be.

  14. “Agreed. We are free to come to different conclusions when considering evidence.” Yes, you are free to not be logical. We are free to point out your lack of logic.

      • It seems odd that free will would be revoked after life on Earth. God allows mankind choice because meaningful relationships can’t be forced. He won’t make us stay with Him if we don’t want to be there.

        Since I’m not dead, I can only speculate.

      • Again, JB, where is your evidence that there is free will at all, including mentioned in your bible? Every instance you’ve offered has failed, including trying to claim that Paul had free will.

        Where does it say that “god allows mankind choice because meaningful relationships can’t be forced”? How does that work with the flood, david’s son, JC’s claim that he intentionally deceived people so they can’t accept his message, and Paul saying that his god created some people to accept his nonsense (aka grace) and some to be damned without any fault of their own? Per your bible, this god creates some people to accept it and some people to be unable to. Why do you make false claims about what your bible says?

      • So by corollary, wouldn’t those in Hell also possess free will to repent and seek reconciliation with God?

      • You already know why I’m making these false claims. My experiences leading up to this conversation. I cannot make any other claims. I have no free will.

      • Sigh. You ricochet from false claim to false claim, JB. I do not believe in free will, because everything we do is influenced by prior events. This does not mean we cannot make choices. You seem to think that once we learn something that never changes. That is not true and thus we can make choices and change our minds. You have been presented with new information and have been shown yo are wrong, but you have chosen to keep making false claims about me. You also choose to not answer my questions.

        “Again, JB, where is your evidence that there is free will at all, including mentioned in your bible? Every instance you’ve offered has failed, including trying to claim that Paul had free will.

        Where does it say that “god allows mankind choice because meaningful relationships can’t be forced”? How does that work with the flood, david’s son, JC’s claim that he intentionally deceived people so they can’t accept his message, and Paul saying that his god created some people to accept his nonsense (aka grace) and some to be damned without any fault of their own? Per your bible, this god creates some people to accept it and some people to be unable to. Why do you make false claims about what your bible says?”

      • One: how terribly disingenuous, hrrrm…no, that’s not strong enough, you are outright being a liar you are saying I agree to that when I said nothing of the sort. So why do you lie continually like this? Are you too stupid to realize you are lying, or are you just so unethical not to care? Or do you think that lying is a lesser evil than us ignoring the possible wrath of your evolved concept of a middle eastern sky God that is the intellectual equivalent of the Volcano God Ugabuga, other than the fact people believe it?

      • One: If I’m free to be logical and you are free to point out my lack of logic, then we have free will. No?

      • Doug,

        John B. has a, how can I put this, penchant for filling his pantomime worlds (castles, really) with beautifully dressed straw men dolls he creates from his lies.

        It doesn’t matter how many times you point this out to John B., he’ll just go ahead and keep repeating the same mistake over and over and over. This means it’s deliberate, which is worrying. His ignorance is wilfull. He even seems to take pleasure in being wrong…. which is just patently odd.

      • Quite on the contrary. Your behaviour (lying) is a brilliant example of predeterminism… Predictable action rooted to your emotional instability that is, in-turn, rooted to TMT (Terror Management Theory).

      • It is most fascinating to watch JB redouble his intentional efforts to misrepresent others in order to benefit. It seems that this is all he has since actually answering questions put to him would make him consider his claims and thus his religion.

        Some of the questions still outstanding:

        “Again, JB, where is your evidence that there is free will at all, including mentioned in your bible? Every instance you’ve offered has failed, including trying to claim that Paul had free will.

        Where does it say that “god allows mankind choice because meaningful relationships can’t be forced”? How does that work with the flood, david’s son, JC’s claim that he intentionally deceived people so they can’t accept his message, and Paul saying that his god created some people to accept his nonsense (aka grace) and some to be damned without any fault of their own? Per your bible, this god creates some people to accept it and some people to be unable to. Why do you make false claims about what your bible says?”

  15. And JZ weighs in with this:

    “It doesn’t matter how many times you point this out to John B., he’ll just go ahead and keep repeating the same mistake over and over and over. This means it’s deliberate, which is worrying. His ignorance is wilfull.”

    It seems we’re all agreed that free will exists.

      • Moreover, and more importantly in my mind, why do theism insist that God must remain hidden for freewill to exist? After all, their mythology includes multiple stories of people who directly interact with God, yet disobey him. It defeats a major excuse for the lack of evidence of God.

      • It’s right there in DougFo’s comment…

        I do not hold the position that ‘theism insist that God must remain hidden for freewill to exist’.

        I’ve never heard that position asserted before.

      • God being hidden has nothing to do with free will.
        I am not ignorant of my own religion. That statement is incoherent. A person cannot be ignorant of what they personally believe.
        You shouldn’t believe my version over anyone else’s. Believe whatever you want to believe. You have free will.

      • Again, where is your evidence for free will, and where is it in your bible, which indicates that there is no free will at all? As I have indicated, I do not find that there is evidence to reach the conlcusion that humans have the ability to make choices without influence. You have been asked for your definition of free will if you do not agree with the usual definition. If you have offered that, I do not recall seeing it and ask you to repeat it. I have no reason to believe you or have to believe you because there is no evidence to support your claims. Free will has nothing to do with it. A desire to believe or not to believe doesn’t influence reality.

        You claimed that you never heard of anyone using the idea of the hiddenness of a god to support their claims of free will. This indicates an ignorance of Christianity and the claims of Christians who insist that they are just as right as you are. You are saying that those other Christians are wrong, and thus saying you are right. As usual, Christians invent their own versions of Christianity, ignoring their bible as convenient and making up nonsense as is convenient for themselves. This shows that there is no reason to accept the claims made by Christians that they have some magical truth.

        Christians, including you, insist that we should believe your version over others every time you try to legislate your beliefs into law or try to tell a non-Christian that they are wrong. Your actions bely your words.

        There are some outstanding questions asked of you:

        “Again, JB, where is your evidence that there is free will at all, including mentioned in your bible? Every instance you’ve offered has failed, including trying to claim that Paul had free will.

        Where does it say that “god allows mankind choice because meaningful relationships can’t be forced”? How does that work with the flood, david’s son, JC’s claim that he intentionally deceived people so they can’t accept his message, and Paul saying that his god created some people to accept his nonsense (aka grace) and some to be damned without any fault of their own? Per your bible, this god creates some people to accept it and some people to be unable to. Why do you make false claims about what your bible says?”

        “Is there evil in heaven to choose?”

        “why is a god is necessary for choice to exist?”

      • You invited commentary. I commented. Rather than dialogue, you call me ignorant and demand I defend positions I do not hold.

        So I’ll give you the evidence you are unable to grasp with logic.

        I’m CHOOSING to ignoring all your future comments. My silence will stand as irrefutable proof of my free will. The choice is mine.

      • Once again, that is not an example of free will, rather a thoroughly predictable response tied to your death anxiety. TMT (Terror Management Theory) has influenced this decision.

      • Your unhinged hostility is also thoroughly predictable. This lashing out that you exhibit repeatedly is a response to challenges to your mechanisms of denial (also related to TMT).

      • Oh, I have my own chain of influences that have, in-turn, influenced yours. Our orbits have been intertwined ever since you found my blog and started picking fights with everyone and anyone. The difference being, though, I’m not hostile, not angry, not frightened. As such, my actions and behaviours are more level-headed and rational… More coherent and meaningful. Yours are a turbulent mess of anxieties and fears, and this outwardly manifests itself in anger. For you, it’s all down to death anxiety.

      • JB, you have been asked repeatedly to tell me and anyone else what positions you do hold. You have been asked questions on how your claims of free will equate with the words of your bible that say the exact opposite. You have done this before on my blog, making baseless claims and then running away when you can’t ask the questions that come with those baseless claims. It is not surprise at all that you run away again. Your silence (which will only last for a while as it has done before) is irrefutable proof of your actions being entirely beholden to prior experiences. It’s quite interesting that your supposed free will didn’t last 10 minutes.

        there are still these questions you have refused to answer:

        “Again, JB, where is your evidence that there is free will at all, including mentioned in your bible? Every instance you’ve offered has failed, including trying to claim that Paul had free will.

        Where does it say that “god allows mankind choice because meaningful relationships can’t be forced”? How does that work with the flood, david’s son, JC’s claim that he intentionally deceived people so they can’t accept his message, and Paul saying that his god created some people to accept his nonsense (aka grace) and some to be damned without any fault of their own? Per your bible, this god creates some people to accept it and some people to be unable to. Why do you make false claims about what your bible says?”

        “Is there evil in heaven to choose?”

        “why is a god is necessary for choice to exist?”

        We also have your false claims that I am not human, following the false claims of your daughter, JB. You’ve also made the false claim that I have said that Christian orphanages are “evil institutions” and have yet been able to show me where I said this. YOu also claimed that no church received federal funding, which was also wrong, and never admitted that you were wrong. Again, we see that you come here, try to make false claims, are shown to be either woefully ignorant or intentionally lying, and then you run away again.

        Back in July, where you also insisted that you weren’t coming back, I asked you the following:

        “As I’ve asked Amanda, why are you here? You do the same thing as she does, make baseless claims, are shown that your claims aren’t true and then run away only to come back to repeat the process. It’s like watching a pair of constipated seagulls, trying to shit over everything but not achieving much.

        I don’t mind dealing with both sets of nonsense since it goes a long way to support my points about religion but I’m not sure what either of you get out of it.”

        It still holds.

  16. “Freewill, does it exist?” Is an interesting, if pointless, argument. However, if you approach it from a religious viewpoint, the argument loses all meaning because it becomes the intellectual equivalent if “Do fairies give you freewill?”

    • I want to know why a god is even neccessary for choice to exist.

      John B has been asked this question repeatedly, but he flees from it every time like a frightened jerboa.

      • In my view, if omnipotent omniscient creator did exist, that completely negates any concept of anything even approaching freewill as the path of every subatomic particle and the possible outcome is accounted for prior to event one of the Universe.

      • what JB, and most theists, seem to ignore is that as soon as they say “My god said this and it is going to happen no matter what.” that’s the end of free will. To JZ’s question, a god seems to make it that free will can’t exist, not that it is required for free will to exist.

    • And unsurprisingly, you can’t mention a single one. SC, if you think you can show where these errors are, then do so. If not, then you are making false claims about another person, aka bearing false witness. I do seem to recall that the bible says this was a naughty thing.

      • “you can’t name a single one”

        Let us begin. You first claim that God chooses who goes to heaven and basically throws everyone else to Hell — but this is false of course. Biblically, ANYONE can go to heaven. In fact, God WANTS everyone to go to heaven.

        1 Timothy 2:3-4: This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

        So anyone can go to heaven — they must simply ask of it of God and follow Him, and those who do so, God will predestine to heaven — that is the meaning of Romans 8:29-30.

        You go on to mention there is no evidence of my God in specific.. False.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSdydtEiwrU&t=10s

        You go on to say prayer doesn’t work — but even my prayer works, so this is blatantly false. Not ALL prayers are answered of course — but some are.

      • SC, it does seem that you are just bothering people to get interest in your blog. I wonder why you feel the need to do that. It does give me a nice new subject to demonstrate how religion, and specifically Christianity, fails.

        Unfortunately for you, your bible says you are wrong when you claim that your god wants “everyone” to go to heaven. You see, SC, I’ve read the bible and I know better than to accept what a Christian says about it without question. Now, it certainly does say that bit in 1 Timothy 2, and JC said that this god would go to extraordinary lengths to get that last lost sheep or coin and 2 Peter 3 does say that this god wants all to come to repentance (along with making excuses for when this savior might show up). But there are quite a few contradictions to that claim, ones that many Christians are either ignorant about or that they simply ignore since those verses are inconvenient. We have JC himself supposedly stating (Matthew 13, Luke 8) that he intentionally prevents some people from understanding and accepting him. We also have Paul stating that there are people that this god damns through no fault of their own, Romans 9. And then we all know that if your god damns those who don’t accept him, they are damned, even if they had no chance of ever knowing about him due to time and space considerations. Even a kid can see the unfairness of that. Then, in that sadistic fantasy called Revelation, we have this god intentionally allowing Satan to corrupt people who accepted him (Revelation 19-21)and were saved with no problem, just to get one more battle for no apparent reason. Why would your god allow the second most powerful being in the universe the ability to corrupt people, and he knows this will happen, being omniscient and all? Now, which parts of the bible are to be believed?

        So, what we have is a Christian who tries to make false claims and it only takes the reading of the bible itself to realize this. You may of course, explain why one verse in the bible contradicts another and why one part should be accepted and another ignored.

        You also seem to be a little confused on the sequence of things and what predestined means. One doesn’t ask and then get predestined, one is predestined by god, given this god’s grace (per your bible) and the asking is not needed. I was a Presbyterian and know all sorts of things about predestination being a good little Calvinist. I’ll expand your quote from Romans 8 so we can see what is being said “28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Funny how it doesn’t say one thing about first asking to be accepted by this god.
        We can also see that other verses are contradicting the claim of anyone can accept this god of yours and ask to be saved: Proverbs 16:4, Psalm 65:4, Matt 24:31, Luke 18:7, John 10:26, Acts 15:17-18, Romans 8:28, Romans 9 of course, Romans 11, Ephesians 1:3–5; 1 Peter1:2, 1 Thes 1:4, 2 thes 2:13, Rev 13:8 And these lovely verses came right from Christian websites, of course all good Calvinist ones who are quite a lot like Jehovah’s Witnesses with being so very sure that they and they are the only “elect” ones. If you want to try to use the greek, then please read this http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2009/08/little-known-bible-verses-xiv/ which goes into the greek of the NT.

        Seems you and other TrueChristians disagree on the “right” interpretation. It’s only grace that allows anyone to be saved, not a request. Now, whose magic decoder should we trust and why? I’d ask you to show your promised abilities as a Christian, but it seems that none of you have anything like what JC promised at the end of Mark for any baptized believer in himself.

        I don’t bother watching silly youtube videos . If you have an argument, make it here if you think it is worthwhile. Do the work, SC, you don’t get to use a typical Christian tactic of trying to throw shit at a wall and hope some of it sticks, but when it doesn’t, the Christian insists that the argument wasn’t “really” his so how dare I hold him to it.

        You have to tell us the argument you find so convincing.

        Hmmm, and how do your prayers work, SC? Your bible says that any prayer will be answered positively, quickly and as the one who was praying requested. So your excuse that some prayers aren’t answered but some are is amusing, and no different than pure coincidence. I could pray to Vishnu, Allah, Tezcatlipoca or to a milk jug and get the same result. Like many Christians, you’ve had to invent new rules for prayer since they never come true. You have to claim that your god says “wait” or “no” or gives you some answer you didn’t ask for because God “knows better” and that isn’t what the bible says at all.

        Try again, SC.

      • Correct — I want to get others interested in my blog. At best, I’ll simply mention that I have a Christian blog to someone — I almost never request them to view it, nor do I force anyone to either. Whether they wish to do so is of their own choice.

        “We have JC himself supposedly stating (Matthew 13, Luke 8) that he intentionally prevents some people from understanding and accepting him. ”

        Sorry bud, but you need to do a much better job at citing the Bible. You cited the book and chapter, but which verse of these chapters are you talking about? You expect me to go through an entire chapter to find YOUR citation? LOL. I’ll give you a second chance to do this. In your comment, you’ve fully admitted that there are verses in the Bible that explicitly say that God wishes all to come to repentance. So either be more specific in your citations, or concede defeat.

        “hat this god damns through no fault of their own, Romans 9.”

        Goodness, another bad citation. I’m a nice guy, so I’ll make a single exception for Romans 9, and read it. It seems that you may have been misled, not properly focusing on the chapter you were reading. After the part you misinterpret (Romans 9:14-21), Romans 9 says the following;

        Romans 9:22: And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction?

        So God is destroying the ones, and hardening the ones that are already evil. It IS in fact their own fault — for God does not destroy he who is good, God simply brings His wrath upon the wicked.

        You go on to quote Romans 8:28-30, assuming it means predestination. However, there’s one part you missed. In part of these verses, the following is said:

        ” And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,”

        God predestines those who love Him and who He foreknew. What does this exactly mean? Jesus tells us.

        John 14:23: Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.

        So, if you love God, Jesus says the Father will provide a home for him. The Father will predestine this man to be saved, as long as he loves God. So really, the people to be “predestined” are those who chose to love God — making it ultimately their choice, not God damning them before the game starts.

        You go on to quote a bunch of verses saying God doesn’t allow the possibility of everyone to repent. One of those verses is this one:

        Proverbs 16:4: The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

        But two verses later, this is said:

        Proverbs 16:6: Wickedness is atoned for by loyalty and faithfulness,
        and one turns from evil by the fear of the Lord.

        So even these wicked can be saved if they so choose to accept God. You really need to start reading your Bible again, bud.

        “Hmmm, and how do your prayers work, SC? Your bible says that any prayer will be answered positively, quickly and as the one who was praying requested. So your excuse that some prayers aren’t answered but some are is amusing, and no different than pure coincidence.”

        Coincidence? There is no coincidence at all. What really pushed me into Christianity is when, a couple of years back, when I was only ‘really’ getting into Christianity for a few months then, I was in a state of near depression. I wasn’t MENTALLY depressed, like something a doctor would tell you, but there was something missing — I was very sad in my life. So, I decided to turn to God. I prayed for God to heal me, and within a mere five minutes I simply could not believe it. I was experiencing more joy then I have ever had been in my entire life. My life changed from that point. My grades in middle and high school immediately exploded, I started working out and achieved great shape. Everything took a turn in my life in those five minutes. So of course there is no coincidence.

      • I’m telling you, SC – you ought to market that s. . stuff!! Five-minute cure! I can just see the headlines now. . . whoa!! Hold me back!

      • well, SC, that’s quite a present you’ve given me, admitting that you are either too lazy or too afraid of actually reading *whole* chapters of your bible. Tsk.

        I’ll be addressing the rest of your curious post.

      • SC, you have a Christian blog of a certain type and certain viewpoint. Not all Christians agree with you and you have no more evidence for your version of Christianity than they do. This ludicrous lack of agreement among so many who insist that they have some objective truth is one of the many reasons that I am no longer a Christian.

        As I’ve noted, it’s hilarious that your excuse is that poor ol’ SC just can’t manage to read a chapter of the bible. It’s a great way to try to delay the inevitable but it only shows that you depend on ignorance to keep your beliefs. Yes, SC, I do expect you to actually know your supposed holy book. But I am aware that many Christians haven’t a clue of what it actually says, relying on pastors and priests to tell them, and that’s how they ignore the contradictions, outright false claims, etc. it’s perhaps even funnier to watch you try to lie about what I’ve said in a written medium. Yep, I said that the bible does say that there are verses that say that this god wants all to come to repentance, but again, there are verses that contradict that. You have chosen to lie about what I have said and have tried your best to remain willfully ignorant about what your bible actually says. I certainly don’t have to concede defeat with such actions by you.

        I’m more than happy to give chapter and verse to you, SC. You serve as a great example of why Christianity is nothing more impressive than any other religion, and it shows that a Christian is no more or less moral than anyone else. Matthew 13:10-17 Luke 8: 9-15
        I am very glad that you have shown that you can indeed read your bible and have shown that you can eve quote where the author of Romans says that your god doesn’t want everyone to come to worship it. Romans 9:22 is a very good verse to show that this god has decided who to give “grace” to, in order that they may believe in it, and has decided whom not to allow to believe in it. It does not say that your god is hardening the ones who are “already” evil. That is entirely made up by you, but you are more than welcome to show what part of Romans 9 says anything like that. You see, SC, you do your best to misrepresent what is written in Romans 9, by selectively quoting it. This is why I give just the chapters because I know how some Christians complain I do not present the verses in context. This stops that false claim in its tracks. Now, let’s look at Romans 9 and what it says before verse 22. I’ve bolded the pertinent verses.

        “Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue, 12 not by works but by his call) she was told, ‘The elder shall serve the younger.’ 13 As it is written,‘I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau.’
        14 What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses,‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.’16 So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, ‘I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.’ 18 So then he has mercy on whomsoever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomsoever he chooses.”
        19 You will say to me then, ‘Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?’ 20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is moulded say to the one who moulds it, ‘Why have you made me like this?’ 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; 23 and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?”

        And there we get to see that SC has tried to misrepresent his supposed holy book.

        In Romans 8, it seems you did actually read the verses. Good for you and thank you for again showing your protests earlier were just more excuses. Many Christians are sure the verse indicates predestination; you will need to demonstrate why we should believe you and not them. What evidence do you have that your magic decoder ring gives the only right answer? Again, you seem to have no clue about what predestination means, SC. It means that one has been created to follow a certain path, with no choice, and this path has been set at the beginning of time, per your bible e.g. “to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand”. So, when God knew that only certain people would accept him, and he also made them to be the only ones who would accept him “be conformed to image of his Son” (conform: to be in agreement with), this indicates that not everyone could be or would be saved. If there are people who are “called”, this means that there are those who are not.
        We already know the bible repeatedly contradicts itself. However, the verse from John 14 doesn’t contradict the claims of predestination that JC himself made and claims of this god intentionally giving grace to some and not to others. It says that if anyone loves JC, he’ll do what JC said and God will love him and JC and God will be with them. Not one word about presdestination at all, for or against. You again have tried to add things to your bible that are not there, and evidently based on your ignorance of what predestine means. The Christian concept of grace is that one cannot believe in this god without being allowed to do so. It isn’t surprising that a Christian would try to change a meaning of a word, but it is amazing when you do so ineptly.

        And more verses that you claimed that you had no idea what they were and weren’t going to take the time to read a chapter of the bible. We have the verse from Proverbs that says that the wicked are made for the day of evil. Not the word “made”, there is no one word about choosing. And you skip over a verse in Proverbs, a book that is a sequence of compiled claims from many sources. The verse 5 has nothing to do with the 4th and 6th verse. Yep, the bible certainly does contradict itself again with 4 and 6. You might want to read Proverbs to see what other curious things it also claims and contradicts itself on. One has to wonder about a book that says that gray hair can only be attained if one is “righteous”. If that’s true, I’m amazingly righteous 🙂 Now, that you know where the verses are (see the following post), surely you can tell me why the rest are wrong. Or did you think you would pick and choose and hope I didn’t notice?

        Unsurprisingly, your claims of answered prayers are just the same as claims of other theists. Vague claims of some kind of depression, claims of prayers to heal you and surprise, god “x” answers your prayer. It’s funny how this god only takes care of vague feelings and can’t do a darn thing to help people dire straits. You are just ever so important that this god makes you feel important, but heck, that kid dying of cancer with hundreds of people praying for her, nothing happens. You get good grades and can take the time to exercise, but the Christians getting their heads cut off or soldiers being blown apart by IEDs, well, that isn’t nearly as important as SC feeling so very special. The amazing selfishness and arrogance of some Christians is truly breathtaking.

      • “Not all Christians agree with you and you have no more evidence for your version of Christianity than they do. ”

        If you think that I have “no more evidence”, then do yourself one of two favors, or both.

        1. Read my content
        2. Follow because future posts of mine will definitely shred this apart

        “As I’ve noted, it’s hilarious that your excuse is that poor ol’ SC just can’t manage to read a chapter of the bible.”

        Nah. You see, I don’t find peoples citations for them. I have my own day and I have things to do. I told you that once you posted the verse, I will provide a full response. LOL. Anyways, you finally figure out how a citation works in your most recent response. You first post Matthew 13:10-17, ignoring the obvious few verses earlier that show this means that these people aren’t given anything because they intentionally of their own choice do not hear, and then you cite Luke 8:9-15, which is just the exact same parable I just explained.

        “It does not say that your god is hardening the ones who are “already” evil. That is entirely made up by you, but you are more than welcome to show what part of Romans 9 says anything like that. ”

        No, that’s exactly what I’ve shown in my previous comment. As far as I’m concerned, the first time the Bible extensively speaks of hardening someones heart is when it comes to pharaoh during the time before the exodus. If you examine these passages, pharaohs heart was hardened he had rejected the Word so many times before. In fact, I just so happen to have written a blog on this a while back that you simply must read in order to understand all this. https://faithfulphilosophy.wordpress.com/2016/10/21/god-and-pharaohs-free-will/

        It seems to me that you cannot bear to the truths of the Bible.

      • Yep, read your content. Still no more evidence than those who say you are wrong. I have no more reason to believe a young earth Christian than an old earth Christian. However, you are of course welcome to tell us why those who say you are wrong are mistaken in their supposed evidence.

      • You’ve read my content on pharaoh and still think I’m wrong? Do I need to KNOCK YOU OUT? LOL. I’m kidding. But seriously.

        As you will have seen in my post, pharaoh’s heart was hardended BECAUSE OF HIS REFUSAL TO OBEY GOD. So, we can see the system in which God hardens peoples heart. This goes on to the New Testament, and the hearts of these people are hardened BECAUSE they rejected God of their own volition.

        Matthew 13:5-10 should do it.

      • ah, I do love threats of violence from a Christian who has nothing else. I also love the lies a Christian tells when he tries to be a bully and then says the classic bully excuse “I’m kidding.”

        Hmm, Matthew 13:5:10. Let’s expand it to the whole parable, 3-10: ” Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

        10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

        And this is offered to support your claim “You first post Matthew 13:10-17, ignoring the obvious few verses earlier that show this means that these people aren’t given anything because they intentionally of their own choice do not hear, and then you cite Luke 8:9-15, which is just the exact same parable I just explained.”

        Please do indicate how the “seeds” choose where they are thrown by the farmer. Please also explain why would a farmer (and a supposedly omniscient, omnipotent farmer) throw seed on a path, on rocky ground, in amongst weeds and thorns?

      • “ah, I do love threats of violence from a Christian who has nothing else.”

        Threats of violence? LOL!

        Again, for Matthew verse you quote, verse 9 is the ringer. “Whoever has ears, let them hear” — Jesus offers this message to anyone willing to listen, those who are unwilling to listen are damned.

        “Again, SC, Christians disagree with each other. If you can’t convince each other, why should anyone else believe your claims? ”

        This is a ridiculous non-argument. Christian disagreements can be debated between Christians, and religious questions can be debated by the rest of the people. When Christians have a disagreement, they argue with each other, but when an Atheist comes long to challenge their Christianity, they will quickly sync together and it will be clear just how much they agree on 99% of things. Your hilariously ridiculous argument that these disagreements invalidate Christianity is so laughable that I can’t even take you seriously anymore — that’s like saying that many Atheists are against abortion, and thus there is a disagreement which invalidates the entire premise! Hilarious. Whether or not two Christians agree on abortion doesn’t invalidate their agreement on Jesus being God, dying for our sins and rising from the dead. There are of course, certain heretical disagreements — if someone denies Jesus rose from the dead or died on the cross for our sins — he is a heretic, and not a Christian.

        “Unsurprisingly, it seems that you have not read Exodus, for your claims about it are wrong. The bible does speak about the hardening of someone’s heart and it repeatedly says it is this god who does the hardening, even when someone is going to do what is asked of them. ”

        I have of course read Exodus, and my comprehension on it clearly trumps your own. You question “where pharaoh has repeatedly rejected the word of God”, which is hilarious, because that was shown in exactly the post you were told to read. Because your ability to figure out my post is very weak, I will explain it to you.

        As I pointed out in my post, in the beginning of the exodus story, pharaoh repeatedly hardens his own heart, and it is only after he does this so many times, that God starts hardening his heart instead. If you go again to the blog post, you’ll be able to quickly get to all the references in Exodus where this shift takes place. https://faithfulphilosophy.wordpress.com/2016/10/21/god-and-pharaohs-free-will/

        You go on to quote Exodus 4:21+, which is really quite irrelevant as it has been established from the numerous references I give, that by the time pharaoh was deciding on letting the Israelite’s go, pharaoh had already hardened his own heart countless times and thus God put the end to it. It seems that this verse can almost be seen as a prophecy, where God foresees that pharaoh will reject Him. You’ll realize if you read the references, the first time God hardens pharaohs heart, is after pharaoh hardened his own heart as recorded 7 times. You hilariously quote Exodus 8:15 to try to respond to me, which is a verse that clearly says by your own quotation that pharaoh hardened his own heart. Again, re-read the blog and do not humiliate yourself again like this trying to reprimand the Word of God.

      • Please do show where yo showed me wrong, SC? It’s very easy to make false claim and I have noted that quite a few Christians that I’ve interacted with always try to claim victory. I suppose you must do so since no one else would, eh?

        AS for converting to Christianity, which one should I pick? Roman Cathlicism, Eastern Orthodox, evangelical, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witness, Calvinist?

      • Yes SC threats of violence. Poor SC has to say such things if someone doesn’t agree with him: “Do I need to KNOCK YOU OUT? LOL. I’m kidding. But seriously.” I do like those capital letters too. One can see that you did mean violence, since you immediately had to say that you were “kidding” to evidently try to convince people it was “just a joke”, aka another common excuse for a wannabee bully.

        Again, SC, Matthew 13 (and I am so happy you were able to actually read a chapter this time), shows that humans have no choice and this god only allows people it chooses to accept its words. The verse you quoted is before the following verses, and it does indeed have hi saying “whoever has ears, let them hear” which would indeed imply that anyone could hear, understand and accept. But then he is asked why he uses parables by his followers,

        10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”, and this is the response that was given: “He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables”

        The reason JC speaks in parables is to deny the ability of people to understand and accept this god, he takes their ability to understand and accept away and this god has given the ability to understand, it is not something that people can do on their own. Strangely, JC does go onto explain what the parable means even though he just got finished saying that the followers should already understand. It’s also interesting that the author of Matthew doesn’t get the quote from Isaiah right. In Isaiah 6, this god says that the ability to accept him will be taken away via Isaiah and commands Isaiah to do the following: “Go and tell this people: ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ 10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”

        No, it is not a “non-argument” to point out that Christians do not agree on what their “truth” is and since you cannot convince each other, there is little reason for anyone else to believe your baseless claims. It is already well known that Christians debate their disagreements and again, they don’t agree on what this god supposedly wants, what the bible means, what they should do to be saved, etc. I know that Christians will often try to hide their disagreements; an attack by one Christian on another can be shown to be just as effective on all of Christians since none of you have any evidence that your “truth” is any better than the next Christian’s. C.S. Lewis says that Christians should intentionally try to hide these disagreements, a falsehood told with an intent of gain by the Christian. ““And secondly, I think we must admit that the discussion of these disputed points has no tendency at all to bring an outsider into the Christian fold. So long as we write and talk about them we are much more likely to deter him from entering any Christian communion than to draw him into our own. Our divisions should never be discussed except in the presence of those who have already come to believe that there is one God and that Jesus Christ is His only Son” (p.vi). – Mere Christianity

        It is true that Christians will try their best to make it appear that they don’t disagree, but that doesn’t work very well. I grew up listening to quite a bit of anti-Catholic nonsense, said by Protestants. I know that many sects are quite sure that if you don’t do their version, get baptized in the “correct” way (I know of at least 3 “correct ways”), then you will be damned to hell. Which way is the correct way per your version, SC? This also brings up another point, Christians don’t agree on what hell is or what their god considers as “sin”. Again, since Christians can’t agree on some very basic things as above, yes, this observation can show that Christianity isn’t valid, and certainly isn’t some monolithic structure. You might be able to get away with making such false claims if you were discussing religion with someone who didn’t know much about Christianity, but when you make such claims to someone who was a Christian and who did a lot of research on Christianity when she was losing her faith, it doesn’t work.

        There are some atheists who are against abortion, and they have their reasons. I personally think its a rather stupid way to do birth control. Accepting abortion or not doesn’t change their atheism, the conclusion that there are no gods. Your analogy fails because atheists debating an action aren’t saying that they have special magical knowledge and then insist that the other Christians who make the same claims of magical knowledge are wrong, with no evidence on either side. As I indicated above, the differences between Christians aren’t about abortion, they are about the basic tenets of their religion. As for abortion, per you bible, your god certainly has no problem with murdering children. I suppose if you believe might equals right, you would ignore this.

        It’s quite fun to see you admit that there are indeed differences between Christians and you of course have to call those other Christians “heretical”. SC, where is the evidence that your version is any more correct than these “heretics”? You simply want to claim that anyone who doesn’t agree with you isn’t a Christian, and funny how those Christians are sure you aren’t a true Christian either.

        There is no evidence that your comprehension of the bible is any better than mine, SC. I have no interest in reading your blog; beg for hit someplace else. You chose to come here and if you want to present evidence, then you do it here. Again, where is the verses that support your claims of the pharaoh “repeatedly rejecting the word of God”? Where in the beginning of the exodus story does the pharaoh reject the word of god? If you cannot provide the verses, there is no reason to believe you.

        I certainly did quote Exodus 4
        “Exodus 4: “21 The LORD said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, “Let my son go, so he may worship me.” But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.’”

        And it’s most interesting that you insist that a verse that shows that your god hardened P’s heart is somehow “irrelevant” to a discussion about your god hardening P’s heart. You have yet to give any references of how this pharaoh has somehow repeatedly rejected this god’s word in the first three chapters of Exodus. Where in the first three chapters does the Pharoah harden his own heart, SC? Where are these supposed “7 times” pharaoh hardened his own heart. I’ve read them again and there is nothing. However, what I found is that this god does promise to send his wonders to Egypt and promises that the Egyptians will let the Israelites go as soon as they see those miracles. There is no mention of this god repeatedly forcing the pharaoh to ignore those miracles. “ But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. 20 So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go.” We also have that rather than freeing the Israelites, this god only wants his people to have a three day weekend, and that this god forces its will against the Egyptians so the Israelites can steal from them. That’s not the usual story one hears in church or in the movies.

        It’s always great fun to watch a Christian insist that a verse in the bible is now a “prophecy” in an attempt to ignore that this god foresees nothing. It’s something you added, and since we do live in an age where I can look at the bible any time, it doesn’t work so well for you to make such false claims. Now, you can claim that perhaps the translation is wrong and what you claim is correct, but then one has to wonder, what else would be wrong if this part is.

        As for Exodus 8, you have already been shown that in the context of the story and the sequence of events, this god again says it will be doing the hardening:
        Exodus 7: “2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it.”

        And it comes to pass:

        Exodus 8: “15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.” And “32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.”

        If one reads Exodus, this god never says “Pharoah will harden his heart”, thus the verse in chapter 8 has nothing to refer to. He always says that he will do the hardening and that this is the reason that the pharaoh will reject the miracles. It is a sequence of events, from chapter 7 into chapter 8. Of course, it doesn’t surprise me that you would try to ignore the context. For all some Christians complain that atheists take things out of context, they are quite good at it themselves if there is something inconvenient that they don’t want to admit.

        I’m still waiting for you to tell me what was so fabulous about that video you thought I should watch. And I’m still waiting for you to show the evidence to support your claims.

      • “Yes SC threats of violence. Poor SC has to say such things if someone doesn’t agree with him: “Do I need to KNOCK YOU OUT? LOL. I’m kidding. But seriously.” ”

        Ugh, I think the “I’m kidding” part was supposed to GIVE IT AWAY THAT I’M KIDDING LOL. DO I NEED TO KNOCK YOU OUT FOR NOT GETTING IT??

        “The reason JC speaks in parables is to deny the ability of people to understand and accept this god, he takes their ability to understand and accept away and this god has given the ability to understand, it is not something that people can do on their own”

        As explained in the earlier verses, “whoever can hear, let them hear” — people fruitful to the Word of God will hear and know what Jesus speaks, but the wicked will not hear and not know.

        “No, it is not a “non-argument” to point out that Christians do not agree on what their “truth” is and since you cannot convince each other, there is little reason for anyone else to believe your baseless claims. It is already well known that Christians debate their disagreements and again, they don’t agree on what this god supposedly wants, what the bible means, what they should do to be saved, etc.”

        Listen — the fact is, if ANY of our interpretations are correct, then Christianity is correct. When debating non-believers, we argue for the general truth of Christianity, not whether or not the flood was local or global or if Joshua 9-10 is figurative or not. As for C.S. Lewis — not ALL Christians try to hide disagreements, I certainly do not.

        “Accepting abortion or not doesn’t change their atheism, the conclusion that there are no gods.”

        CORRECT. Just like whether or not you think the flood was global or local doesn’t affect your Christianity — the conclusion is still that Jesus is Lord and died for our sins.

        “you of course have to call those other Christians “heretical”.”

        No, only very certain views are heretical, such as:

        -Jesus isn’t the Son of God
        -Jesus didn’t die on the cross for our sins
        -There was no Resurrection
        -God doesn’t exist
        -etc

        These are simply HERESIES.

        “If one reads Exodus, this god never says “Pharoah will harden his heart””

        Looks like you are still unable to interpret this properly. God never says “Pharaoh will harden his heart” — He says that He will, but we ONLY SEE God hardening pharaoh’s heart after pharaoh repeatedly does it himself. I mean, the verse YOU QUOTED (Exodus 8:15) outright says that Pharaoh hardened his heart. And even before 8:15, pharaoh hardens his own heart numerous times, and thus even excluding 8:15 (which is not accurate), the argument still stands.

      • The “I’m kidding” is just an excuse to allow you to make the threat and then try to avoid having responsibility for it. As I’ve noted, bullies do this all of the time. They say what they mean and then when called on it, it’s always “I’m kidding” or “I’m joking”. You chose to make the comment, SC, rather than simply note that I do not agree with your claims. Again, you repeat yourself, a threat of violence for someone who dares not “get” your claims aka agree with you “DO I NEED TO KNOCK YOU OUT FOR NOT GETTING IT??”. Why would you find you need to say that you need to knock someone out for that, SC?

        As I have pointed out, there is nothing that confirms what you claim, SC. I am not sure what you mean by fruitful in the sentence “people fruitful to the Word of God will hear and know what Jesus speaks, but the wicked will not hear and not know” since the definition of the word is either producing fruit or productive and neither make much sense in your sentence. Occasionally, I wonder if English is your first language because you make some very weird word choices and you seem to assume that grammar and word definitions some will magically change if you want them to.

        If you are trying to argue that the people who hear the word of this god and then accept it are the “good ground” in the parable, then we again have the same result, this god has some people it intentionally allows to accept it and other that are damned through no fault of their own since the “farmer” intentionally casts them everywhere else but the good ground. You may explain why the farmer scatters the grain where it cannot flourish and how this is supposedly the grain’s choice as per your argument. As it stands, the words and grammar contradict your claims and those do have standardized meanings, no matter if you like it or not.

        The problem is that you have yet to show any correctness at all, SC. Christians can all be wrong and we get the same result as we have now: none of you have shown any evidence that you are right. You are also incorrect that Christians only make general claims when debating non-Christians. I’ve had Roman Catholics argue that they are the only right ones and try to show so with the claims of the early Catholics. I’ve had Protestants cite Luther and make the nonsense claim of a “relationship not a religion”. You can go out to the Why Won’t God Heal Amputees forum and see for yourself. You can also see this on my blog where Christians make these claims (with Dale in the post you’ve decided to comment on here, Diana, Jedi in Christ, Lyle Duell, logicinlife, etc). I’ve had plenty of Christians of all stripes claim that the noah flood was real and that is evidence for their faith, that the sun was stopped in the sky, that genesis is literal, or kinda literal but only the parts they like, etc. You all have your own magic decoder rings on what the bible means, what your god wants, etc, and yes, Christians do use those arguments when it comes to debating non-Christians. It would seem that you are either ignorant of this, hard to believe when *you* post such arguments on your blog as replies to non-Christians or you are choosing to make a false claim when you know better for what purpose I’m not sure.

        As for what C.S. Lewis said, I know that not all Christians hide their disagreement, the fact is that some do. And you try to claim that Christians agree on 99% of things when that is not the case at all. Baptism, what is a sin, how one is saved, all of those are sticking points between Christians, who all claim to have the one right way. Indeed, if one isn’t baptized “right” then one can’t evince the magic powers that JC himself said that any baptized believer in him can do at the end of the Gospel of Mark. Now, since I’ve yet to see a self-professed Christian do any of those things, this seems to be evidence that none of you have it right or that the book is nonsense.

        It does affect your Christianity if you decide that part of the bible isn’t true and that part of it is. You use the flood as an example. The problem with this is if you say the flood wasn’t as large as claimed or didn’t happen at all or was a metaphor, then you say that when JC mentions the flood as an actual event, he was wrong. And then what else is wrong, SC? If Genesis didn’t happen as claimed as a literal event, then no need for JC at all, no original sin, no need for a second Adam. If the flood can be discounted, then why not discount every other event that has just as much evidence that the flood does: none?
        As I well know, there are more than just your “very certain views” that are heretical. Christians have been merrily killing each other for years over the ones you mention and more. We have the problem of what exactly is the trinity, when JC became the son of god, whether it’s sola gratia, sola fide, and/or sola scriptura. We have when and how people get baptized as being quite a problem. We have what constitutes a sin and what is the punishment for it being claimed as truth but each side differing. Who goes to hell and what is hell? Each side called the differences heretical. No side can show that its “truths” are indeed true and all claim that their claims are supported by the bible and/or some revelation.

        I’m waiting for you to provide the verse where your god says that Pharoah will harden his own heart. Again, SC, the words of Exodus itself bely your claims since all of the instances are where this god says he will harden pharoah’s heart. The verse I quoted, again, comes after the claim that this god will harden pharoah’s heart “just as the Lord had said” earlier. The words do not change. I’m also waiting for you to show these 7 times where pharaoh rejected this god’s word in chapters 1-3 of Exodus and now am waiting for you to show the verses to support this new claim of yours “And even before 8:15, pharaoh hardens his own heart numerous times, and thus even excluding 8:15 (which is not accurate), the argument still stands.” You can go right here to biblegateway.com and cut and paste the words with no problem.

        I would argue that there are no such things as non-denominational Christians because, again, Christians make up what they believe picking and choosing what you find literal or metaphor, what you want to claim you must follow as a law and what you can ignore because you don’t want it to apply anymore. Those things you claim as heresies, are quite valid to those who claim that Christianity is based on those things. Currently, I’m discussing Christianity with a young woman who thinks that the entire bible must be taken literally, no matter what. She has a fairly good reason: if you doubt one thing, why not doubt it all. She is having a problem currently since she cannot provide evidence for these supposed literal events, but she is not unique in her claims of what her version of her religion is. I would come up with something on my own but it’s a very good chance that some denomination (there are thousands) would have already come up with it.

      • “The “I’m kidding” is just an excuse to allow you to make the threat and then try to avoid having responsibility for it”

        AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAAHHAHAHAHAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

        You’re obviously just hyper-emotional. What “THREAT” am I to you? Do I know where you live? No. Do I know who you are? No. What “THREAT” am I to you exactly? Have you ever stepped outside of your little bubble into the real world for a single moment of your life? Sorry bud, but if you need a safe-space, conversing with myself isn’t going to get you one.

        “Why would you find you need to say that you need to knock someone out for that, SC? ”

        Because IT’S A JOKE — I say it to my friends, I say it to men, I say it to women, I say it to teens and I say it to adults — and they all get the gist, and NEVER feel “threatened” as I’m a generally nice 6 foot 2 dude.

        “I am not sure what you mean by fruitful in the sentence “people fruitful to the Word of God will hear and know what Jesus speaks, but the wicked will not hear and not know” since the definition of the word is either producing fruit or productive and neither make much sense in your sentence.”

        When I say ‘fruitful’, I obviously don’t mean it in a literal fashion. It’s like poetry, you know what I mean? By the way — my first language is Arabic, I’m from that warzone terrorist country in the terrorist middle east called “SYRIA”. Back in Syria, you only hear 2 sounds when driving. 1. Honking. 2. Explosions.

        Back to the point — what I mean by ‘fruitful’ is receptive — people willing to hear the Word of God, to accept it and believe in it.

        As for the Catholic – Protestant divide, I think it’s stupid and these people need to drop ALL LABELS, drop all idols (praying to pope, sorry catholics), and just call yourselves ‘CHRISTIAN’. By the way, Martin Luther King Jr. was an ADULTERER.

        “that the sun was stopped in the sky,”

        Are you talking about Joshua 10? You DO KNOW that’s been absolutely proven, correct?

        “this seems to be evidence that none of you have it right or that the book is nonsense. ”

        AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAH

        Disagreements of men have nothing to do with the validity of the Word of God.

        “Each side called the differences heretical”

        Wrong. You’ll realize heresies I listed were denying the CENTRAL DOCTRINES OF CHRISTIANITY — which is to say that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins and rose on the third day in order to be saved. I don’t call you a heretic for believing people burn for eternity or are immediately annihilated, I don’t care much whether or not you think the Earth is billions of years old or under 10,000, I don’t care whether you think the flood was global or local or that the entirety of Genesis is figurative. The CENTRAL DOCTRINES are what is most important, the ones exactly listed in the Bible issuing how to be saved.

        “I’m waiting for you to provide the verse where your god says that Pharoah will harden his own heart.”

        I don’t need to provide any verse, because the Bible explicitly states he does so numerous times. I listed all the verses where pharaoh simply hardens his own heart — and it’s VERY CLEAR that there is a major shift between pharaoh hardening his own heart to God doing it in about the 9th chapter of Exodus.

        And again, let’s not forget perhaps the most important point, as I’ve cited Pastor Greg Laurie on this issue, he thinks that a better translation for ‘hardened’ is ‘strengthened’ — which means in all the cases here, GOD STRENGTHENS pharaohs heart, meaning strengthening pharaoh in his rebellious decisions which pharaoh himself initiates. So I don’t see any possibility of denying God anymore here on this issue and case.

      • You have chosen to threaten violence if someone dares not agree with you. Like most bullies, you aren’t a threat to anyone who points out your failures.

        I’ll be back to address the rest of your post later.

      • Ah, SC, you are the gift that keeps on giving. Your virtual cackling quite amusing. But caps and nonsense doesn’t count for much. Your attempted excuses for your actions, claiming I’m “hyperemotional” is entertaining since that is one of the least likely things anyone would call me. However, I have been bullied and and I stand up against them because it might stop them. No safe space needed, as you see, since you can repeat yourself as much as you’d like and I’ve been threatened with far worse by so many TrueChristians, it’s simply become rather cute in an “aw, look at the three year old who makes a threat” kinda way. Threats from Christians are nothing new at all, considering your sadist fantasies given form in Revelation. I’ve been in the real world for 50+ years, SC, it’s been quite a ride. I’ve discovered great Christians, great atheists, great theists of all types, and complete idiots who were Christians and atheists and other theists.

        It is no surprise that now you don’t mean fruitful in a “literal” fashion, which means that you didn’t actually mean fruitful at all. It is interesting if you are from Syria. Some Syrians may be terrorists, most aren’t. You should know something about how horrible religion is and what stupid things it makes people do. I hope you haven’t suffered too much from the destruction.

        Fruitful doesn’t mean receptive at all. And again, the only thing that your bible claims is that they are made receptive is by “grace” e.g. chosen by god to be able to accept it. Per your bible, one cannot accept this god without it allowing it. The farmer aka God, intentionally casts grain (people) where they cannot flourish, again a parable version of what the bible has already said, some people are chosen to be able to believe, some aren’t and they are damned through no fault of their own to some “hell”. A person’s willingness to accept god has nothing to do with personal choice or action, it supposedly depends upon this god’s actions alone.

        Nice to see that you do admit that there are major differences between Christians, most noticeably on your claims that Catholics worship idols; I was wrong in thinking you were a Catholic. Yep, MLKJr. Was likely an adulterer. Martin Luther was an anti-Semite. Mohammed married little girls if one is to believe the legends about him (he also supposedly liked cats). A horrible number of priest and pastors are child abusers. A hilarious number of American evangelical Christian pastors have been adulterers, have had prostitutes (both gay and straight), have stolen from their churches, etc. In my Freedom From Religion newspaper, there are always at least 2 11”x18” pages in 8 point font full of church leaders are criminals or who are under investigation. Your point is?

        Oh my. No, SC, the myth that the sun stopped in the sky has not been proven and is pure nonsense, just like the idiocy of thinking that the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth. Some very ignorant and lazy creationists have made the claim and I do love when other creationists say don’t use that claim because it isn’t true. NASA didn’t discover the day. Sorry, SC, but for claiming to be scientific, I now know that is completely untrue and I am sorry to tell you that your fellow Christians intentionally lie to you. It’s sad that you choose to remain willfully ignorant and to repeat a lie.

        Disagreements between men have everything to do with the validity of the world of God. Most if not all translators claim to be Christian and claim that their god helped them with the translation. Now if we get contradictions and disagreement on what the bible really means, what God wants, what is sin, what is hell, what is the right way to get baptized, what is the right way to treat women, why is this, SC? Is it that god intentionally causes them to cause harm? Is it that this god can’t get its message through to anyone? What a sad little god then. Again, we get thousands of sects, all making the claim that their Christianity is the only true one and none of them having any evidence for this.

        I know, SC, that you are desperately trying to limit the discussion to some “central doctrines of Chrsitianity” and Christians can’t even agree on what those are either. Heresies are heresies, claims that something is not what this god “truly” meant, wanted, did. Arianism and Anabaptism are just the same, claims that there is a different truth in each sect of Christianity. I don’t care what you personally may or may not do, SC, but Christian religions *do* call people heretics for having “incorrect” beliefs in hell, genesis, the flood etc. You have tried to claim that all Christians don’t do this and I know you are wrong; this is where your willful ignorance gets in your way. Your insistence is a great bit of evidence that demonstrates how Christians want to claim things about their religion to make it seem that they agree 99%, but a closer examination always shows this to be wrong. Again, your supposed “central doctrines” don’t hold up if the other stories don’t. No literal Genesis story with the snake, no need for a second Adam. No literal story about the flood, then why believe any other story about miracles, including the resurrection. No literal story about hell and how people are doing to be damned or saved in the “end times”, then there are no end times to threaten people with, and no god coming back to rule on earth.

        The bible lists the following as ways to be saved: believing in JC, accepting JC as your savior, doing good works, having god give you grace and that will be the only way you can accept him, doing good works *and* having accepted JC as your savior, and weirdly enough, childbirth for women. We then have Christians who do believe predestination and we have those who claim a free choice. Right there, we have a major heretical divide between Christians, based on how is one saved, your very own claimed central doctrine.

        No surprise at all that now you refuse to supply the verses you claimed existed, SC. Again, if the bible explicitly says this, as you have claimed, then you
        should have no problem at all cutting and pasting these explicit statements right here. Biblegateway.com is a great source for such thing; you can search on keywords, on verse and you can select from about 30 different bibles. You see, SC, you’ve shown that there is no reason to trust you or your claims because when you could easily present evidence, you refuse. And if something is “very clear” in the 9th chapter, surely you can show those verses too. But you refuse and it isn’t hard to guess why you refuse: your claims are false and you have nothing. It does get boring when I know this is how things will shake out, one more theist who can’t support their nonsense.

        I don’t care about yet one more pastor who has decided he can have his own interpretations from his own magic decoder ring to make his god a little less typical of petty ignorant interfering Bronze Age gods. Interpreters have been using the word “hardens” with no problem for thousands of years. Most of these interpreters have claimed that their god helps them with the interpretation so their version is correct. Now we have one fellow who says that evidently those interpreters and his god are wrong. Why should we believe him and not them? Indeed, if the word is so completely wrong here, why should we believe any of it if none of it has any external evidence to support it? We also have the delectable problem that if the word “harden” is a misinterpretation, what does that do to the other phrases that use that term and it makes no sense? This is a lovely example of theistic picking choosing and screwing themselves up on the way. It’s pure schadenfreude.

        Of course, there is the problem that nowhere in the bible, even if you go with “strengthens” does it say that the pharaoh had any “rebellious decisions” to strengthen. And you still have this god interfering.

        Still waiting for those 7 times you claim that the pharaoh, rejected this god in Exodus 1-3. There’s only three chapters to search so it should take long. Still waiting for evidence of all of your claims. No one cares what you claim you see or don’t see, SC. The validity of your claims was pretty much flushed when you refused to provide the verses you claim exist. There are plenty more reasons to doubt your version of Christianity and to doubt the other versions and other religions too.

      • “Ah, SC, you are the gift that keeps on giving.”

        Thank you!

        “However, I have been bullied and and I stand up against them because it might stop them.”

        I’m not looking to bully you, bud. Bullying is one of the last things I’d do — but sometimes you need to understand that this hypersenstivity madness where someone can’t joke around otherwise another might get “offended” and “triggered” is utter nonsense.

        You go on to criticize the terminology I use when explaining the Matthew verse rather than the actual argument. Which is nonsense. As explained, those willing to learn about and accept the Word of God will understand the parables spoken by Jesus, whilst those who reject it a priori will not understand in the first place. Consider this great verse from the Bible that is relevant here:

        1 Corinthians 1:18: For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

        I’m also very sad to hear you read from the Freedom from Religion foundation, a terrorist organization that sues children schools because they allow the kids, if they want to, to gather up for a Bible class after the day is over. Freedom from Religion foundation is something I’d happily destroy with a bat.

        “NASA didn’t discover the day. Sorry, SC,”

        My reference wasn’t to NASA, bud. I’ve already known that some dude made up some NASA thing about Joshua’s day, but that wasn’t my argument, LOL. The fact is, if you look all over the world during the time of Joshua, you’ll suddenly see COUNTLESS myths arise speaking of a “day twice the length of a regular day”, it’s simply astonishing. But here’s the crazier part — remember, the Earth is a sphere, so if its day on Joshua’s side (Israel), it’s night on the other side of the world (North & South America, etc). And lo’ and behold, if you look at the worlds myths during the time of Joshua where it was supposed to be night, you hear of countless myths that speak of a “night twice the length of a regular night”. It is simply astonishing, in utter miraculous confirmation of the divinity spoken by God in Joshua 10. In the following link, completely skip the article (exposing the NASA fraud) and skip down to the part where it says “From one of our readers”, and read that: https://bible.org/question/has-%E2%80%9Cmissing-day%E2%80%9D-joshua-been-proven-scientifically

        “What a sad little god then.”

        ROTFL. ALMIGHTY GOD LAUGHS at such claims.

        “The bible lists the following as ways to be saved: believing in JC, accepting JC as your savior, doing good works, having god give you grace and that will be the only way you can accept him, doing good works *and* having accepted JC as your savior, and weirdly enough, childbirth for women.”

        The last one as well as ‘doing good works’ is nonsense. Incoming misrepresentation of a verse in James.

        And once again, if you want to see all those references in Exodus, simply CLICK ON THE BLOG I ORIGINALLY CITED YOU… Or click on my blog and scroll down and find it… Or click here: https://faithfulphilosophy.wordpress.com/2016/10/21/god-and-pharaohs-free-will/

        And once again, the translation of ‘hardened’ as ‘strengthened’ solves everything anyways. If God is simply strengthening what pharaoh chooses, pharaoh is necessarily the person to start the entire thing out. God interferes — yes, but He is already amplifying what is already there and what already exists to serve His purpose, it’s not like He is changing the fate of pharaoh or something.

      • You aren’t “joking” around, SC, you don’t like when people don’t accept what you say and then you say you will hit them. What is funny about hitting people, SC? Again, no fears of triggering or offense, you’re a piker when it comes to other Christians I’ve dealt with, imprecatory prayers and all. I’m holding you accountable for what you say.

        You seem to forget that to criticizing an argument requires criticizing the terminology too. They aren’t separate. If you use an incorrect word then you get called on it since words don’t change definition just because you want them to. If you use something wrong and it doesn’t make sense, then anyone can call you on it to help you make yourself clear.

        As has been demonstrated, the only ones willing and, more importantly, able to learn about this god are those that this god intentionally chose. This god also intentionally chose not to allow certain humans to understand and accept him, thus damning them for a fault not of their own. As your bible states, these choices of who were to be saved and who were to be damned were made before humans were even made, yet one more verse to contradict others. I’m not sure what you mean when you say “reject it a priori”. Do you mean that some people reject this god without examination and analysis or reject it because of a preconceived notion? Or do you mean that these people indeed can’t accept this god because they were formed before beforehand?

        1 Cor 1:18 only says that people who believe in this god believe in this god. It says nothing about why they can believe in it. It would apply to either instance, predestination or free choice. And it’s just one more religion saying the same thing, that it has the truth and nothing else does; all with no evidence.

        It’s hilarious to see you lie about people being terrorists, SC, especially if you really are from Syria and know what terrorists truly are. Your false claims again show why people should doubt you and why Christianity is no source of morality for its members. You should actually find out about what the FFRF does before bearing false witness against them. They prevent some Christians from trying to force their religion on others. If there is a bible study group after school and the school has nothing to do with it and no one is forced to attend, they have no problem with it. They will also make sure other religions and other groups can have the same benefits. I do enjoy the threats of further violence against those who don’t agree with you. “Freedom from Religion foundation is something I’d happily destroy with a bat.” Terrorists use violence and threats to try to get their way. Thanks for further supporting my point.

        You are as wrong about the FFRF as you are about simple facts, SC. What are these myths around the world that mention anything like a day twice the length of a regular day? You are welcome to provide sources for these supposed “countless” myths, and not nonsense like “historians have said” nonsense on creationist websites that have no citations on what myths these supposed claims were in and what the original source was. You can also tell me exactly what date that was that this supposed miracle happened and how you know. If you use the bible to support this, that would be a problem since there is no evidence for the bible claims of the Exodus, Moses, and Joshua being true. No artifacts and certainly no magical sun moving around, which doesn’t happen since the earth revolves around it, not the other way around. Unfortunately for you, I’m well read in the myths of other cultures and I have not run across any such claims nor any dates for such events happening. The earth is indeed a sphere and the bible doesn’t support that fact, with its claims of the earth being flat like a clay seal, having edges, etc.

        As usual, your links have no evidence to support their claims, and they even mention the “day” being of unnatural length, “the historical lore of the Aztecs, Peruvians, and Babylonians speak of a “day of twice natural length.” on both sides of the earth at the same time; night is not mentioned. So your claim is again wrong and you have shown you cannot accurately give information from one website. As for Velikovsky, he also was a fraud, quite like L. Ron Hubbard, and doesn’t give evidence his claims (one of my favorites is when he claims that the noah worldwide mountain high flood was caused by a planet that doesn’t exist going “nova” something planets can’t do). I am amused to read more about this and see Christians claim that the Chinese also had a long day, but they don’t bother sourcing the actual myth, which says that sun didn’t set for *10 days*, not 2 (the Christian excuses are either that the Chinese didn’t have clocks (they had them since about 4000 BC long before the supposed time of Joshua) so they had no idea what time it was and just “thought” it was 10 days or that the number of days was distorted over time, which would also happen with their own myths). The claims about Herdotus also have no date that such a supposed thing happened, and we do know that Herodotus lied repeatedly about what he supposedly saw and was told. Another claim of Egyptian hieroglyphs is made and in those, the sun is on the horizon, not in the position claimed by the author of Joshua (the middle of the sky) and the moon doesn’t’ stop, again contradicting the claims of the bible. It’s like watching someone insist that a frog is a watermelon because it’s green on the outside and red on the inside, desperate for anything that’s even close to their nonsense, belying their claims of having such strong faith. It seems, SC, that again your claims are baseless and you rely on ignorance and the lies of others to keep your faith.

        No, SC, your god doesn’t laugh at anything since he doesn’t exist. But please do show some evidence that he does. You might want to make sure that you don’t use the same arguments that other religions use to support their god’s existence.

        You are again showing your ignorance of your supposed holy book, SC. How unsurprising. You are wrong again, and of course have no evidence that I am “misrepresenting” anything at all.

        1 Tim 2: “15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.”

        JC says that one must do good to be saved: Matthew 25, you might want to familiarize yourself with the sheep and the goats. James says pretty much the same. You may consider yourself a believer and righteous, but without deeds, its’ meaningless. James also says that a non-believer is righteous because of what they do. And finally, James says that the prayers of righteous people are effective. Now why isn’t that the actual case for disease and injury, hunger and pain? James says Elijah was just a human but his prayers actually did things; this god answered him quickly, positively and gave exactly what was prayed for. Why aren’t any Christians able to do those things now? You’ve made claims that you felt better because your prayer came true. How about some of those answered prayers for other people, SC? Or isn’t is important enough to help someone, but heck if SC can work out, that’s good enough?

        As I’ve told you, SC, you can beg for blog hits somewhere else to make you feel important. You came here and claimed you have evidence. You can present it here. Where are those seven times? You can cut and paste whatever information you’d like. In that you continue to refuse, there is no reason to believe you have anything at all.

        Again, you have yet to show that the pharaoh chose anything and that your god had anything to “amplify”. Amusingly, you do forget that the pharaoh was going to let the Israelites go but this god hardened his heart to do the opposite thing. Strengthening intent doesn’t work at all when someone’s intent is to allow the people to leave. You fail again be being ignorant of what the bible actually says. As for changing fate, the bible does love to have this god do this, killing people who have no choice of what their king will do, mind controlling Egyptians so they allow the Israelites to steal from them.
        And then we get you saying this “but He is already amplifying what is already there and what already exists to serve His purpose, it’s not like He is changing the fate of pharaoh or something.” That’s wonderfully interesting, SC. Your bible says that everything exists to this god’s purpose already. And if someone has a “fate” then there is again no choice. I’ll ask you again why should we ignore what the translators of the bible have said for thousands of years in favor of an invention by someone who needed to invent a nicer god for his flock. If the word “hardened” was mistranslated, why? And why would a god need to show off, repeatedly hardening pharaoh’s heart to do so? Again, it is just one more petty and very human Bronze Age god, needing to strut around like Zeus or Ares.

        Here are a few of the other bits of the bible that use the term harden. Now put “strengthen” in and see what happens. This why context and the meaning of words is important.

        “Why, Lord, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?” Isaiah 63

        ““Today, if you hear his voice,8 do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion,during the time of testing in the wilderness,where your ancestors tested and tried me,though for forty years they saw what I did” Hebrews 3

      • “You aren’t “joking” around, SC, you don’t like when people don’t accept what you say and then you say you will hit them.”

        Gracious. Have you… EVER joked around with your friends in your life?

        “As has been demonstrated, the only ones willing and, more importantly, able to learn about this god are those that this god intentionally chose. ”

        We’ve seen exactly the opposite — God forechooses to save those who truly love Him, which is their own choice. In other words, it really bears down to our decisions.

        “1 Cor 1:18 only says that people who believe in this god believe in this god. It says nothing about why they can believe in it. ”

        Please open your eyes when reading a verse.
        1 Corinthians 1:18: For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it is God’s power to us who are being saved.

        Very simple, the message of the cross is FOOLISHNESS to those who are perishing — the perishing are ones who laugh at the truth when it hits them in the face, and that is probably because they are wicked and reject what is good.
        Isaiah 5:20: Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

        ” If you use the bible to support this, that would be a problem since there is no evidence for the bible claims of the Exodus, Moses, and Joshua being true”

        Oh boy, you shot yourself in the foot on challenging the exodus in this claim about “the exodus, moses, and joshua”. Looks like you need to read my blog more often (i’ve only got about 20 posts). https://faithfulphilosophy.wordpress.com/2016/10/24/historical-evidence-for-the-exodus/

        ” The earth is indeed a sphere and the bible doesn’t support that fact, with its claims of the earth being flat like a clay seal, having edges, etc. ”

        RIP, time to start reading my blog more often.https://faithfulphilosophy.wordpress.com/2016/11/21/the-bible-and-the-shape-of-the-earth/

        The nonsense of the Bible claiming a flat Earth is long debunked.

        “No, SC, your god doesn’t laugh at anything since he doesn’t exist. But please do show some evidence that he does.”

        I don’t have a blog on this yet, I will start posting blogs on these subjects perhaps soon, but for now you can watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSdydtEiwrU&t=10s

        “That’s wonderfully interesting, SC. “Your bible says that everything exists to this god’s purpose already. And if someone has a “fate” then there is again no choice.

        Sorry bud — God creates certain fates, as in the judgement of the world, and things like that — but our being saved is on us.

        You have quite a ton of learning to do, bud.

      • I do joke with my friends all of the time. Threats of violence aren’t made as “jokes”, we have no need to say we’ll knock each other out for not agreeing, and we certainly don’t say that we’ll go after each other with baseball bats for disagreeing.

        Forechooses means “to choose before” an action. The bible does not say anything about your god forechoosing to save those who truly love him; it says that this god forechose those people *to* love him. Again, anything you can point to that may indicate a free choice, is contradicted by Romans 9, JC’s words about why he uses parables, all the verses that Calvinists point to for predestination, etc. I’m waiting for you to show that your version of the claims in the bible are the valid ones and how the other claims about this same bible are not. Why should your baseless opinion be believed any more than theirs? None of you can do the promised magic indicated in the end of the Gospel of Mark for baptized true believers who accept JC as their savior.

        Again, 1 Cor 1:18 says nothing about if a person is predestined or chooses freely, SC. It can work for either, since in either case it claims that people are perishing for not being able to believe or choosing not to believe. You are adding things to your bible that are not there. As for people who don’t agree with you being supposedly “wicked and reject what is good”, that is again a lie since atheists and other non-Christians are just as good as any Christian, especially you, SC. If we weren’t, then we wouldn’t have civilization. Like many Christians, you have this delusion that everyone but you and those who agree with you are somehow morally worse than you, and reality does a great job of showing that to be wrong. It’s nothing new, many if not most religions have to pretend that anyone but them is somehow “evil”. It’s a great excuse to harm people and try to take their stuff.

        There is no evidence for the exodus, no evidence for Moses and no evidence for Joshua nor is there evidence of people parading around a city to make it fall. For example, when did the exodus supposedly take place, SC? Surely you know right? And if it is on any one of the dates that are given by Christians, Jews and Muslims, why is there no evidence at all that any series of 10 disasters befell the kingdom of Egypt, and that their entire army was destroyed? If this is the case, why did none of their enemies take advantage of this? Why do we find no evidence at all for more than a million people wandering around for 4 decades in an area the size of half of Pennsylvania? Not one latrine, not one garbage pit. It’s just like that magical flood, a baseless claim with no evidence to back it up. If you think you have some valid evidence, please present it. I have no interest in reading your blog.

        It is not surprising that your claim that the bible has been proven to show that earth is a sphere is also wrong. Many Christians before you have made this claim and it doesn’t work at all. The bible does refer to spheres and it never uses that term when describing the earth, it says “circle”. The evidence that also supports the ignorance of Bronze/Iron Age authors is that they think that someone can see the entire earth from a mountain that is high enough (JC and Satan’s little confab on the mountaintop). That does not work with a sphere. You’ll never see the other side of the sphere from a mountain on one side no matter how high it is. Now, I’m wondering, will you claim that the offending verses is now just “metaphor”? With this verse, with the claims that the earth is spread like clay under a seal, that it is supported on pillars, and that the sun goes around it, rather than the opposite, there is little reason to assume that the authors of the bible knew that the earth was a sphere. It is likely that other cultures already knew that the earth was round, but there is no evidence that the “chosen people” or their god knew this. You may be interested in this article about the language used in the bible regarding circles and spheres. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2001/PSCF9-01Schneider.html In case you might be afraid to read it, it’s a Christian website about science.
        I do not care if you have a blog post on anything, SC. If you think you can support your claims, do so. I don’t watch youtube videos that the Christians can’t even bother to explain. If you think it has a good argument, present it yourself.

        Like many Christians, you want to have your theological cake and eat it too. If your god interferes at all, free will is gone. If it already knows what will happen and has prepared the punishment or reward already, then it requires events to happen in a certain way with no choice and those events can never change. Either we are left with a predestined world, or a god that has no choice in what it does, which makes not much of a god and certainly not the one you claim to worship. Consider this, if someone was humane and kind, and removed JC from the cross, nursed him back to health, and he went on living, would your god damn everyone because it didn’t get its blood sacrifice? Could this have happened at all? You’re left with an interesting choice of how you’d like to explain this. Oh and I’m not your “bud”, bub,but you can call me Vel. As for learning, I’m still waiting for you to support your claims and explain why your fellow Christians have chosen to tell you false things, like there are mentions of an extra long day in other cultures when this is not the case? I’ve evidently taught you many things so far since I’ve been able to show you bible verses you did not know existed.

      • “I do joke with my friends all of the time. Threats of violence aren’t made as “jokes”, we have no need to say we’ll knock each other out for not agreeing, and we certainly don’t say that we’ll go after each other with baseball bats for disagreeing. ”

        LOL. You need more adrenaline in your life.

        “Forechooses means “to choose before” an action. The bible does not say anything about your god forechoosing to save those who truly love him; it says that this god forechose those people *to* love him.”

        That’s obvious nonsense, we’ve already seen otherwise.

        “Again, anything you can point to that may indicate a free choice, is contradicted by Romans 9, JC’s words about why he uses parables, all the verses that Calvinists point to for predestination, etc”

        I have already refuted all of this, and thus mentioning it is beyond irrelevant.

        ” I’m waiting for you to show that your version of the claims in the bible are the valid ones and how the other claims about this same bible are not. ”

        You go on to call me views ‘baseless opinions’, which is laughable. When disagreements come up, I debate them with fellow Christians, and for you I’m simply trying to educate you regarding free will.

        “As for people who don’t agree with you being supposedly “wicked and reject what is good”, that is again a lie since atheists and other non-Christians are just as good as any Christian, especially you, SC. If we weren’t, then we wouldn’t have civilization. ”

        That’s nowhere near true, hard Atheists are very evil people by simply being an Atheist that bases their conclusions on their presuppositions.

        Psalms 14:1: The fool hath said in his heart, “There is no God.”
        They are corrupt; they do vile deeds.
        There is no one who does good.

        Muslims are insane, yet even Muslims have civilization — you don’t need to be as good as a Christian to maintain a civilization. Almost all your values were ones engineered by Christian society — before Christianity, ‘compassion’ and virtually did not exist.

        “There is no evidence for the exodus, no evidence for Moses and no evidence for Joshua nor is there evidence of people parading around a city to make it fall. For example, when did the exodus supposedly take place, SC? Surely you know right?”

        This is a blunder, I’ve already made it overwhelmingly clear there is overwhelming evidence for the historicity of the exodus.
        https://faithfulphilosophy.wordpress.com/2016/10/24/historical-evidence-for-the-exodus/

        “I have no interest in reading your blog”

        Translation: I have seen no evidence, if you offer me evidence I will pretend it isn’t there, and thus there is no evidence for the historicity of the exodus.

        == circular reasoning, fail

        “It is not surprising that your claim that the bible has been proven to show that earth is a sphere is also wrong. Many Christians before you have made this claim and it doesn’t work at all. The bible does refer to spheres and it never uses that term when describing the earth, it says “circle”.”

        Time to read the link I gave and put all the pieces together.https://faithfulphilosophy.wordpress.com/2016/11/21/the-bible-and-the-shape-of-the-earth/

        When Christians try to prove it, it always works. Again, your mass ignorance is not an excuse to ignore the evidence. Atheists are like this, they can’t comprehend reality and thus push away any offer for it to be explained to them.

        “Like many Christians, you want to have your theological cake and eat it too. If your god interferes at all, free will is gone. If it already knows what will happen and has prepared the punishment or reward already, then it requires events to happen in a certain way with no choice and those events can never change. ”

        Obvious non-sequitur, God’s foreknowledge is determined by what we choose to do with our free will. As in, God’s knowledge on the future derives from what we will do with our free will, rather what God chose to happen. If we would have chosen to do something different, God’s foreknowledge would have initially been different. Please read philosophy.

        “I’ve been able to show you bible verses you did not know existed.”

        I’ve already read the entire New Testament, and that was all that you quoted. It seems to be the exact other way around, you were unable to maintain your arguments regarding any of your positions and you have to pretend away the evidence for things you don’t like (exodus, shape of the earth).

      • SC, I am not here to look at your blog or to let you advertise it while providing no information. To continue posting here, your post will contain the information you claim to have. If you continue to post links, I will remove them and indicate why they are not present. You’ve been warned. I return later to address your post’s content. I am entertained with the lies you’ve told. I have not said I will pretend your evidence doesn’t exist. I have repeatedly asked for it and you have refused, evidently desperate for anyone to look at your blog. That is your choice. Is it that important to lie that you choose to evidently ignore your bible? I wonder, how many times will a god forgive someone who intends on lying repeatedly and thinks he can get a free pass as long as he says I’m sorry, whilst intending to lie again?

      • LOL! I’m not “advertising” my blog, it already has many thousands of views and thus the addition of two or three from yourself is highly irrelevant to me. I received about a hundred views in the last two days, and so I’m doing fine. The fact is, I initially created this blog in order to store information so I don’t have to constantly give long explanations to everyone over and over every time I discussed the same topic for a new person, but now I have like 56 followers so I update it regularly.

        “I am entertained with the lies you’ve told. I have not said I will pretend your evidence doesn’t exist. I have repeatedly asked for it and you have refused, evidently desperate for anyone to look at your blog.”

        This is amazingly embarrassing, as of course I have told no lies. It is extraordinarily clear that overwhelming evidence has been suggested to you, yet you simply pretend it away as a means of ignoring the facts and reality of things. What point is there to someone who does not read citations and evidence when given? Unebelievable, LOL.

      • Many thousands of views hmmm? If my views were that irrelevant to you, why would you refuse to cut and paste the evidence you claim to have, and keep posting links to your blog? As for number of followers, it’s always good to meet a size queen.

        Alas for you, SC, this is a written medium and I have pointed out your lies. I know you are embarrassed when they are pointed out. I’m still waiting for all of those myths that supposed corroborate the sun standing still in the sky and for you to explain why your fellow Christians lie about the Chinese myth that says the sun stood still for 10 days, not 2. That’s the quality of your evidence, a lie that can be shown false with a simple internet search. You’ve claimed “Muslims are insane”. Evidence for this? If no evidence, it seems we have a false claim made for your benefit, SC. It’s the same with the claim that “hard atheists are evil”. Evidence of this or is it just more bearing false witness by a TrueChristian? You claimed that the bible said nothing about childbirth being salvation for a woman, and surprise, I posted it. You claimed that the FFRF are terrorists. Evidence for this, SC? Or again, is this more false claims told to try benefit?

        I’m here and happily waiting for your evidence for your claims.

      • “Many thousands of views hmmm? If my views were that irrelevant to you, why would you refuse to cut and paste the evidence you claim to have, and keep posting links to your blog? As for number of followers, it’s always good to meet a size queen. ”

        COPY AND PASTE? LOL. My post on the exodus is thousands of words long, bud (and I plan on an edit soon because of new info I’ve acquired). There is no potential in copying and pasting all that here. There are also pictures on it of course — how do I copy and paste those? You act as if you’re going to contract AIDS if you click on my links, which is really quite ridiculous. If you cited your past work, I would click on it and respond to it — as I have done other times with other people.

        “Alas for you, SC, this is a written medium and I have pointed out your lies.”

        Lie == overwhelming evidence just so happen to be located on my blog

        LOL. Anyways, you read my post on the pharaoh and free will, and in the end of the day you were not able to put forth a counter-argument. Perhaps you are afraid of what you are going to read on my other posts?

        “Christians lie about the Chinese myth that says the sun stood still for 10 days, not 2.”

        What myth is that? Are we talking about the same thing here? Anyways — you get angry because my previous link had no “citations” for all these myths, so perhaps you will be more appreciative of this link:

        By the way, regardless of the name of the website, it doesn’t argue for geocentricity — so calm down. Of course, my previous claims were not a lie — you seem to be thoroughly confused with the myths of the ancient world. These facts are overwhelming and simply confirming the entire Bible at once.

        ” You’ve claimed “Muslims are insane”. Evidence of this?”

        See 250 suicide bombings in the last year alone.

        “You claimed that the FFRF are terrorists. Evidence for this, SC? Or again, is this more false claims told to try benefit? ”

        Definitely terrorists that should have their organization destroyed — these people sue any organization that so much as conceives of having groups devoted to their own religion or anything religious whatsoever.

        “I don’t need to tell my friends that I will hurt them if they don’t agree with me. If this gives you a “rush”, that is unfortunate. I’d rather have friends I don’t feel like I need to threaten and get my fun sledding with them if I need an adrenalin fix. ”

        Unlike your friends, my friends aren’t overly sensitive and hardly care if I or someone else says that.

        “Again, I’m still waiting for you to support your claims, SC. You have not shown any for anyone to “already see otherwise”. The bible repeatedly states that this god chooses people to be able to accept it, again in Romans 9, in Matthew 13, etc. ”

        Repeating chapters that have been responded to over and over and stomping on the ground when your claims are rejected by evidence does not qualify as an argument. I also found this good link that should knock a little sense into you: {link removed by site owner. Commenter has been asked repeatedly to show his evidence here and not post links.}

        ” I’m still waiting for evidence that your version of your god exists, SC. If you can’t show this, then you have a presupposition.”

        LOL. {link removed by site owner. Commenter has been asked repeatedly to show his evidence here and not post links.}

        I’m pretty sure I’ve cited that evidence for God’s existence before. You go on to try to excuse atheists from being evil — of which they certainly are. All men have sinned, including all atheists — but it seems atheists, on top of sinning, wish to denounce their very Creator (in which is proven above, as well as the unimaginable proof for Joshua’s long day). The rest of your comments are the same ridiculous rants that have already been addressed, “Christians have different interpretations”, “you try to ignore disagreements” (even though I’m the first to knock at them), but there is of course one last thing I’ll address.

        ” Christianity did not magically invent most, or all, of the moral values we have today.”

        Now THAT is obvious garbage. Before Christianity, the world was made of empires that massacred everyone they could overpower — Christianity contradicted this, and thus was persecuted for hundreds of years by the Romans, Jews, pagans, and everyone else. Then, God converted the entire empire to Christianity, and thus the Christian nations of the world, out of all of them, were the first to ensure the morality that we see today. The rest of the world remained corrupt, until of course the West became the worlds global power in the 19th century, which caused the spread of Western values (originated from Christianity) to the rest of the world. The West of course, after 1500 AD had its own track record of atrocities — but not nearly as great as those of the rest of the world. {link removed by site owner. Commenter has been asked repeatedly to show his evidence here and not post links.}

      • SC, your post has had its links removed.

        As for copying and pasting, you can do so here. It’s just highlight the information and control+c and then control+v. Sorry but your excuse doesn’t work…again. You may post the evidence you think is the best if you don’t want to post it all. Again, I am not interested in looking at your blog and I don’t care what you would do.

      • LOL. As I explained, there are THOUSANDS of words as well as pictures in the blog, and thus it cannot be copied and pasted.

        “Again, I am not interested in looking at your blog”

        One needs to point out that it is IRRELEVANT whether or not you are “interested”, as you asked for evidence. The fact is, one must either look at the evidence or ignore it — however if they choose to ignore it, they must concede its there. You sound like clicking my blog will hurt you or something. LOL

      • Alas, SC, I know wordpress well enough to know that your claims are simply false. WordPress allows so much in comments that there are widgets that limit the size of comments, such as Greg’s Comment Length Limiter. As I’ve pointed out, you can post the evidence you think is strongest, and I can address that too.

        I’ve repeated this more than a few times, I’m not interested in your blog. You came here making your false claims. You can defend them here. If you will not, then again, you were looking for blog traffic, nothing more. It is quite relevant that I am not interested in looking at the blog of someone who has come to my blog and has made unsupported comments on it. I’m willing to look at the evidence, and have repeatedly invited you to post it here. Please do show how I am choosing to ignore your evidence, if I ask you for it, SC. I certainly don’t have to concede anything exists on your blog since you are evidently unable to provide it.

        I know looking at your blog won’t hurt me, SC. I’m not interested in looking at one more website that is full of nonsense like you’ve provided here, SC. I’m still waiting for the evidence that other cultures recorded a longer than usual day. Since I know that you have repeated the lies of other Christians in regards to that concerning the Chinese story, either out of laziness or willful intent, there is little reason to think you’ve done anything different on your blog. How much of it is copy and pasted, SC?

      • AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH

        As you can see, my initial point was NOT that it was somehow not possible to fit all the words in my blog onto this comment, but it was that there are so many words that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to respond to it or post it initially in any organized way.

        SECONDLY, I pointed out that there are pictures throughout the post. How do I past pictures onto a comment section? Answer: It’s not possible.

        THIRDLY: This is something I realized (remembered) just a few hours ago. My post contains EMBEDDED CITATIONS. Do you know what that is? Imagine the following:

        once upon a time in farway land there was a man who historically documented the war between babylon and space monkeys

        An embedded citation on WordPress is when you can embed a link into a phrase in your post. So imagine in the above text, the words ‘who historically documented’ had an embedded citation in them, meaning that you could actually click on them and it would take you to the source of the claim. The fact is, embedded citations CANNOT be posted in a comment on a blog, in other words all my citations would be ENTIRELY LOST if I magically copied and pasted the entire thing into the comment. Because all my citations are embedded citations, you will then question several of my claims for not being sourced… When they ARE, LOL.

        So, as has been just established, you are obviously too much of an ignoramus to understand any of this. The fact is, your willingness to accept any of the information or even look at it is irrelevant to me. If you HILARIOUSLY think I’m “searching for blog hits”, as if 1 click from the 80 I’ve received today alone makes a difference to me, then please do the following: After reading through my post, delete ALL PREVIOUS COMMENTS of mine that I’ve posted on your blogs, so that no one ever scrolling through your pages will ever imagine that I even have a blog.

        You also regurgitate the garbage that the Chinese had the sun stop for 10 days and not 2, but you’ve given no source for this, and once again, my previous comment (or two comments ago?) I gave a second source filled with references (because the first one apparently wasn’t) that ISN’T my blog, it’s some other website that establishes my point.

        You go on to say I’ve been “unable to provide the evidence”, even though I’ve posted the links several times establishing this claim as evidently false. Just imagine if someone like you tried to enter academia, LOL. You’d read a research paper, and DEMAND the “sources”, when they’re all listed at the end of the paper. “NO!” you demand, “they must ALL BE COPIED AND PASTED on my personal blog, otherwise you have NO evidence, NO substantiation” — needless to say, you’d completely fail.

        It’s like one of those wacky mythicists who claim there is no evidence for the historical Jesus (although there is). You tell them to search up some of the early historical references to Jesus by guys like Josephus, such as the reference in Jewish Antiquities XX.IX.I (that’s 20.9.1 if you can’t read roman numerals), but they demand that the entire text of XX.IX.I be copied and pasted otherwise it doesn’t exist. LOL.

        “You came here making false claims”

        All of which ended up becoming demonstrably true.

        “Im not interested in your blog”

        No one cares, troll. Your interest is irrelevant to me. I don’t copy and paste thousands of words into a comment on someones blog for the same reason I don’t copy and paste an entire book chapter into a YouTube comment to convince someone that something is actually backed up by evidence, I give them the reference and tell them to read it for themselves. And not only that, as I’ve repeated, the pictures and embedded citations make it impossible for the post to get copied and pasted anyways.

      • As you can see, my initial point was NOT that it was somehow not possible to fit all the words in my blog onto this comment, but it was that there are so many words that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to respond to it or post it initially in any organized way.

        Bullet it, and stop being a dick.

        By your display here I’m sure one in one thousand words you type must be mildly meaningful.

        Pick those out.

      • You’re telling me to summarize an entire post 4,000 worded post full of embedded citations? Impossible. You could have finished reading it 100000x over by now with the time you spent telling me to do all this. Ridiculous.

      • “vapid word salad”

        AAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

        That’s a hilarious attempt at discrediting overwhelming proof. You bore me, and you are obviously wasting my time. Either you address it in your next comment, or I move on to things that are more productive.

      • SC, I’m trying to ascertain the most annoying aspect of your narcissistic personality. So far, you’ve displayed all the characteristics admirably. You DO realize you are one, correct?

      • that is an interesting point. Considering that most religion requires a need to believe that the universe revolves around one’s self and one’s version of one religion, I suppose narcissists would be drawn to something like that. However, diagnosing online is fraught with problems so I would warn against it. I think that SC’s issues are far less dramatic than full-blown narcissism.

      • You also say I can “cut and paste the source”, ridiculous garbage — I have 46 citations (I just counted), many of them leading to actual research publiations. In order to “cut and paste them”, I’d need to change every sentence where a citation appears, as statements in the middle of the post have citations on them. This is embarrassing, no doubt. It’s obvious you’ve got no clue what an embedded citation is.

      • “excuses and false claims”

        This conversation would have ended if you at least educated yourself regarding what an embedded citation is. Or a picture. LOL.

        “most curious that you had to count those supposed embeds”

        Was I supposed to memorize them? LOL.

        Listen, clubschadenfreudjonaodlnad. I need to ask a question. Have you ever read a reference link in your life… Ever? Or any peer-reviewed literature? Your lack of ability to conduct an academic discussion is probably what is most frightening.

      • I already know what an embedded citation is, SC and what pictures are and how to place them in comments. I note that you haven’t a clue what I was referring to. But please don’t let me get in the way of your ignorance. No, not at all.

        I’ve read quite a lot of references and peer reviewed literature, being a geologist. Research papers do not list blind links and they do not list entire works, expecting a reader to read the entire work to find information claimed. You may of course refute this if you can.

        ignorance

        And “clubschadenfreudjonaodlnad”? Really? That is so cute!

      • Huh? How did you get an embedded citation on your comment? I tried that in the comments of one of my previous blogs and it didn’t work. When I try pasting an image, it simply posts the URL instead of the actual image. Does your blog have kind of widget that I don’t know about?

      • “As you can see, my initial point was NOT that it was somehow not possible to fit all the words in my blog onto this comment, but it was that there are so many words that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to respond to it or post it initially in any organized way.”

        And one more attempt at making a false claim. Alas, we can see exactly what you said “LOL. As I explained, there are THOUSANDS of words as well as pictures in the blog, and thus it cannot be copied and pasted.” It’s not uncommon at all for a TrueChristian to try this tactic, a false claim that he has some mysterious “initial point” that reflected reality when his actual claims don’t support his attempt to revise history. Thanks, SC, for once again demonstrating my point that being a Christian doesn’t make you an admirable person.

        I would posit one of the reasons that Christianity is losing the interest of people is that the actions of Christians are held as if in amber on the internet, and show them behaving in manners opposed to the better parts of the bible. Why would someone who was interested in Christianity want to share the sobriquet with such people as SC?

      • If you have evidence, SC, there is no need for pictures. However, If you have pictures you wish to show, you may send them to me since it is not impossible at all to put up images in comments (velkn_at-comcast.net) Next excuse?

        You also don’t need embedded citations, SC. But you can cut and paste what you have and indicate what the source was. If you hadn’t ignored my warnings about posting links with no information, you may have retained the ability to use links, but that is something you threw away. Next excuse?

        Again, you make personal attacks against me and again are shown to be wrong. I of course would not dream of eliminating your comments here, SC. They are wonderful exhibits. If you are not searching for blog hits, then again you can cut and paste what you think are the best of your evidence. You won’t, but the offer is still there to look at the evidence you claim to have.

        If you will note my last comment, the claim about the Chinese myth was on a link that you claimed had such wonderful evidence on it. Congratulations for not knowing what you’ve linked to.
        I am still waiting for your evidence, SC. You have shown that you are not responsible for links. If you wish to use a link, then cut and paste the relevant part and offer the link as a back up for the person to see if they so choose. You get one more chance at this, SC. Will you take it?

        Nice attempt at a strawman, SC. No, I would not demand that a research paper put up things on my blog. I would have the paper and could check out the research at my leisure. I would indeed insist that the paper contain the claimed information as a quote for the reference material to be footnoted to. That’s how research papers are written. A research paper doesn’t cite a whole source and require its reader to search that entire source or put up unnamed sources and then hope the reader will accept that somewhere in that source there might be some relevant information.

        There is no evidence for a historical Jesus Christ, son of God. There may be some historical evidence for an itinerate rabbi that thought he was the messiah and was killed by the Romans, but there is precious little of that also and that isn’t the entity you worship. As for Josephus, the quote from the Antiquities chapter 20 is considered authentic, but again, no evidence for your supposed messiah. It states a story that Josephus received from someone else, that a man, James, who was supposedly the brother of Jesus who was called “. Josephus also mentions John the Baptist in chapter 18, but the story of what happened is quite different from the one presented in the bible. Which should we believe? Also in chapter 18, there is a well known forgery, where it mentions Jesus Christ again, and where earlier versions did not. You are of course welcome to post this supposed evidence for a historical Jesus Christ.

        It’s amazing that you have yet shown any of your false claims to be true. I suppose you are stuck with saying “all of which ended up becoming demonstrably true” since no one else would. Again, please do show where these “countless” other myths are supporting the extra long day and please do indicate the date that this occurred, SC. How does a sun stop when it wasn’t moving in the first place? When did the exodus happen, SC? The evidence for it? The flood? When did the cruxifiction happen, SC? Show how the FFRF are “terrorists” and how all muslims are insane and all atheists evil.

        Thanks, SC, for calling me a “troll”, my guest on my blog where you came to tell me I was wrong and have yet to show your evidence. I know you certainly do hope that someone will do your work for you, when you expect them to do the work finding your supposed evidence.

        You’ve been given many options, SC. It is your choice to supply your evidence or to refuse.

      • As I’ve noted, I don’t care at all what you would supposedly do. You came here insisting I was wrong and you were right. You claimed to have evidence to support this. And it’s been noted that you’ve tried other places to get interest in your blog by such baseless claims. As such, you can either post your evidence here, or you can refuse and be noted to have none. And if you think I would be frightened by other things on your blog, you can post those things here too. I’m more than happy to look at your evidence, but I’m going to guess you’ll refuse again. It is not uncommon that a theist is desperate for the approval of an atheist in their need for validation. As for reading your comment on pharaoh and free will, I did post a counter, and no, I haven’t read your nonsense on your blog about that either. I guess this is again SC needing to claim he’s won again since no one else will. Still waiting for you to show evidence for the exodus, SC. You’ve tried very hard to claim that “harden” should equal strengthen, but unfortunately you haven’t explained why all of the interpreters before your new invention were wrong and why we should believe your new version, and your magic decoder ring.

        You also may type “LOL” as much as you want. I suppose you must, since that is all you have. Again, you have been caught in lies here, SC. There may be plenty of lies on your blog; I think one can be fairly certain about that since I’m guessing you cut and paste creationist nonsense. I wonder, are you a young earth Christian or an old earth Christian? And why is it that you folks simply can’t get the other to believe you? Again, you’ve lied when you have claimed that the FFRF are “terrorists”. You’ve lied when you have falsely claimed that I will not look at your evidence. You have lied about other cultures having myths that supposedly support the sun standing still in the sky. I’ve asked you to provide which cultures and the myths, but unsurprisingly you don’t. What’s even more fun is that the one myth you mention, Chinese doesn’t say that there was a singular day that had either extra hours of light or darkness. You ask where this Chinese myth is referenced. Well, it’s here, SC: https://bible.org/question/has-%E2%80%9Cmissing-day%E2%80%9D-joshua-been-proven-scientifically a link that you posted when you wrote this: “My reference wasn’t to NASA, bud. I’ve already known that some dude made up some NASA thing about Joshua’s day, but that wasn’t my argument, LOL. The fact is, if you look all over the world during the time of Joshua, you’ll suddenly see COUNTLESS myths arise speaking of a “day twice the length of a regular day”, it’s simply astonishing. But here’s the crazier part — remember, the Earth is a sphere, so if its day on Joshua’s side (Israel), it’s night on the other side of the world (North & South America, etc). And lo’ and behold, if you look at the worlds myths during the time of Joshua where it was supposed to be night, you hear of countless myths that speak of a “night twice the length of a regular night”. It is simply astonishing, in utter miraculous confirmation of the divinity spoken by God in Joshua 10.”. The quote from the link is this: “There is apologetic value in ancient legends from various parts of the globe, however, including the following: “It is reported by historians that records of the Chinese during the reign of Emperor Yeo, who lived at the same time as Joshua, report ‘a long day.’” It seems you have no idea what you’ve referenced, which would indicate again that you are simply trying to baffle with bullshit, aka the intentional false claims made by Christians.

        The actual myth says that one day was as long as 10 days. Is the bible wrong then? This is not an uncommon occurrence, where a Christian tries their best to fit their myths into other myths or into reality. We also have the nonsense claim that the sky went dark in the afternoon in Palestine and surprise, no one else noticed this. No other cultures, and when Christians try to use science, e.g. claiming it was an eclipse, they forget even the ancients knew how to predict one and they also forget that an eclipse only happens during a new moon, not a full one which would have been during Passover per the Jewish calendar.

        If you have a citation for a myth, you can put it here. It’s time to remember bibliographic skills again. Again, no links will be allowed from you. You are expected to put your evidence up, not some link with no information. I am not interested in slogging through nonsense because you hope that some of the shit will stick to the wall. Put up the pertinent parts. I am not playing the game with a Christian who will put up a link and then when it is shown that the link is ridiculous, then runs away insisting that he isn’t wrong because it wasn’t really his information. Amusingly enough, I already had read the one link to the nonsense that the folks who think that the world is at the center of the universe. They do have quite a lot of claims and nothing to show that the days were the same, or that the time periods were the same. Hmmm, was the night or day longer, SC? Per the bible, it was only the daylight period. The bible itself says that the sun stopped in the early afternoon. The Egyptian myth says far low on the horizon. The native American myths, hmmm, what day was their myth supposed to happen on? And the central and south American myths, well, they say that there was years that there was no sun, quite a bit different than a long day. Now, considering you want to claim that these myths are true, then there is no reason not to believe that Tezcatlipoca isn’t just as real as your god, the celestial bureaucracy isn’t as real as your god, etc. Or are you cherry picking again, SC? And of course these people are quite sure that the false claim about NASA finding a “lost day” is true. But one needs just to know that the sun and moon don’t move around the earth to know your nonsense is just that, baseless nonsense clung to by someone who has attached his self-worth to a religion.
        I’m still waiting for you to tell me when these supposed miracles happened, SC. When was this day? And when was the flood? And please do indicate how you know your version is true and other theists are not.

        Oh my, again, we see you either being sadly ignorant or lying again. “By the way, regardless of the name of the website, it doesn’t argue for geocentricity — so calm down” Shucks, SC, you mean that the website about geocentricity doesn’t say this: “It is the testimony of God as found in the Bible which constitutes the foundation of modern geocentricity. May it ever be so.” http://www.geocentricity.com/ Again, SC, you’re doing a great job of demonstrating your utter ineptness.

        Hmmm, so we have 250 people out of 1.6 billion. That’s, hmm, 0.000015265 percent of all of the Muslims in the world. We can even add the couple of hundred thousand from ISIL and al-Quaeda. So, please do show how this is evidence that *all* Muslims are insane. I’m quite certain that if I said all Christians were insane because of the actions of some, you’d be offended and insist that was not true. Now, why do you think you can make the same false claim about others, SC?

        Please provide evidence that the FFRF are terrorists, SC. As it stands we have just one more repetition of a lie by you. The FFRF certainly does sue people. Do show how this is equivalent to terrorism. And more sad little fantasies of violence from our TrueChristian here. Contradictory to your lies, SC, the FFRF doesn’t sue churches for being churches. Even in their home town of Madison WI, there are plenty of churches and nativity scenes. People aren’t told they can’t believe what they want; they are sued if they try to force others to believe what they believe and if they try to get special privileges for one religious group over another. I do wonder about a Christian who intentionally lies so much, SC. The Christians I know personally don’t seem to need to do this.

        It also doesn’t matter what you may or may not think an argument is, SC. Reality doesn’t change when you pray really hard. And still having delusions of violence. How nice!
        You have cited the same claims that other theists use for claiming that their particular god exists. Again, why would I believe any of you? Please so show that your version of your god is the creator of the universe and the others aren’t. Surely you can do that, SC?

        Still waiting for you to show that atheists are evil, SC. I know, poor fellow, anyone who dares show you that you are wrong is “evil”. Happily, most people aren’t like toddlers who get angry when someone counters them. They know what evil actually is. Your claims about denouncing a creator is just like another theist whining about you denouncing theirs. You are sure that their gods don’t exist and their miracles never occurred and they are sure of the same. None of you can show that your god exists or that you can do the magical things promised by your gods.

        You have given excuses for the problems I have mentioned, SC. Again, Christians have many different interpretations of what sin is, hell is, how one is saved, etc. You claim to have the only right answer, but cannot show any more reason I should believe you than I should believe a Mormon. You evince none of the signs of someone who is a true baptized believer in Christ. So, the bible is wrong, you are wrong, or both are wrong. Surprise, another false claim, that you were the first to address that Christians disagree when you insisted that they don’t disagree “When Christians have a disagreement, they argue with each other, but when an Atheist comes long to challenge their Christianity, they will quickly sync together and it will be clear just how much they agree on 99% of things.”.

        Now we have more baseless claims that somehow Christians invented morality. Tsk. Now, for groups massacring anyone they could overpower, hmmm, that does seem familiar. Oh yes, the entire OT, which again has no evidence for any of its fantasies of battles of with hundreds of thousands of troops to be true, no magical walking around in circles, etc. They get so excited that they claim to annihilate the group a couple of times (the Amalekites). Your ignorance of history is hardly surprising considering you need it to cling to your religion. The golden rule e.g. the law of reciprocity, was around far before Christians or their supposed messiah. The ancient Chinese had it, the ancient Egyptians had it (you know, those ones that didn’t notice a world-wide mountain deep flood and who didn’t notice 10 disasters or the loss of their entire army) Christianity did not invent this, and does contradict it with the ludicrous revenge fantasy in Revelation. Christianity was indeed persecuted because it was claiming to be true and surprise, the other religions also wanted to claim that they were true. Hate to tell you, SC, but Christ was a Jew and said all of the Jewish laws are still in force until the heavens and earth pass away and that’s where he gets the “do unto others” command.

        Christianity was then accepted wholeheartedly by Emperor Constantine and became the religion of an empire (the eastern Roman aka Byzantine Empire, there were more than one), one of those that kept on “massacring everyone they could overpower” (and making a whole separate church which claimed to be the only true one e.g. “orthodox”). Then we had the Roman Catholics, with their empire (in this case the Holy Roman Empire), and more death and destruction, all approved of by this god supposedly. Protestants then split off and more war and torture for those Christians who didn’t agree with the other Christians and for those theists didn’t convert. Few people persecute Christians as well as other Christians. And few people find the need to convert other Christians as badly as Christians who are sure that their version is the only right one. So much for your 99% agreement claim.

        Finally, we got a sequence of changes that removed some of religion’s power during what is commonly called the Enlightenment. The divine right of kings, something right from the bible, was thrown out. Then the rights of other sects was acknowledged. We do see better morality now, and that is because these nations no longer follow the bible slavishly. There’s a reason that it doesn’t simply say “see bible” under the title United States Constitution. Happily, we have kept the few good bits from ancient philosophy and religion (including Christianity), and tossed the rest that said women are less than men, slaves can be kept, indigenous peoples are to be killed or converted, and that only a certain group of people is worthy of not being tortured forever.

        The difference is that now Christians are beholden to secular laws, that they didn’t invent. Consider yourself, SC, you want to harm people for not agreeing with you, but it would be inconvenient to go to jail. Some Christians don’t’ care and they murder others. Shall I say that all Christians are insane because some do harm because of their religion?

        I’m going to guess you’ll complain about me mentioning slavery. Christians were on both sides of the issue and both claimed god supported them and they all cited the bible as their evidence. Who should we believe? People have been anti-slavery in many cultures, again your religion didn’t invent modern morality. Indeed, it tried its best to turn it backward.

        As always, SC, your ignorance and your apologetics fail. You want to claim an objective morality, but Christians don’t agree on what it is nor can they show that their version is any more true than anyone else’s.

      • ” As such, you can either post your evidence here, or you can refuse and be noted to have none.”

        BAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

        It seems that there are truly some people that think not clicking on a link means the link doesn’t exist. Your rather insane ideologies are hard to grasp. As I’ve explained, it’s impossible to copy and paste the pictures in the blog, and it is furthermore impossible to copy and paste the EMBEDDED citations in the blog into a comment. It seems to me that you do not know what an embedded citation is, although I have explained it recently.

        “Again, you have been caught in lies here, SC. ”

        You continue to accuse me of lying, although it’s been well-established that my “lying” is you simply falsifying data, misrepresenting various sources, and so forth. You then accuse me of “cutting and pasting creationist nonsense”, also obvious garbage.

        By the way, the FFRF are in fact terrorists — their terrorist organization should be shut down and destroyed. They sue schools for having after-school Bible clubs where anyone is free to participate, they sue hotels for leaving a Bible in their drawers, etc, etc, etc.

        “your religion didn’t invent modern morality”

        AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

        OF COOOOoOOOURSE it did, LOL. Before Christianity, there was no real morality in the world. Morality ONLY developed in the Western world, and as the West erupted in power, the rest of the world started adopting its values.

        “The actual myth says that one day was as long as 10 days”

        LOL. You’re close, but it actually says that the sun did not set for ten days (close), but of course this STILL confirms it. The time of Emperor Yeo in which this occurred is virtually equivalent to the chronological year of Joshua 10. You are deeply confused it seems, because one of about fifty myths says “ten days” instead of “long day” or “twice the length of a day”, although it’s easy to see how the Chinese exaggerated the long day into meaning ten days. Now of course, the Chinese is merely one of them — there are several tens of myths in North, Central and South America of a “long night” or “night twice the length of a regular night”, such as from the Ojibways, Wyandot Indians, Dogrib Indians, Bungee Indians and Ohamas. People living in north, central and south America would be on the opposite side of the Earth from Israel (or Joshua), as the Earth is a sphere of course. This is obviously beyond a coincidence — on Joshua’s half of the Earth, traditions from all over Africa, China, Babylon have a long day, and the other side of the Earth has countless myths of a long night. This is more then obvious. Citations all here:
        http://www.geocentricity.com/astronomy_of_bible/jld/

        There have been countless academic publications on these things.

        “If you have evidence, SC, there is no need for pictures.”

        AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

        This is why someone who doesn’t read the evidence gets thoroughly confused when you discuss it to them. The pictures illustrate the archaeological discoveries conforming to the exodus narrative. Did you think I was posting pony pictures or something? LOL.

      • Again, SC, you refuse to present your evidence. You expect people to read your supposedly thousands of word posts to find nonsense, and you post links without explaining what is on them to find.

        I have not said your links don’t exist. I have repeatedly said that no one needs to do your work for you. But please to keep posting false claims, SC. It’s great fun to watch and it’s especially hilarious about the embeds.

        Please do show where I have done any “falsifying data”. I’ll be happy to wait. As for creationist garbage, you do have posted claiming creationism is true, correct? And where did you get your information, SC? What kind of creationist are you: old earth or young earth?

        Please do show where the FFRF are terrorists, SC (terrorism: the systematic use of terror { a state of intense fear: violent or destructive acts {as bombing committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands} especially as a means of coercion) . It’s always a shame that someone like you make such sad false claims and by your actions denigrate when people are harmed by actual terrorists. It’s rather like when Christians claim to be persecuted in the US, when they have thousands of churches, hundreds of tv and radio stations, bookstores, etc. They can harangue people at public events thanks to the freedom of speech. But if they can’t force their version of their religion on others, they cry persecution and denigrate where people actually are persecuted and killed for being Christian. The FFRF have sued schools where the school did not allow other after school groups and only allowed a Christian one. They sue hotels that were part of governmentally owned organizations because it is unconstitutional for a government entity to show religious favoritism. Again, your claims are false. Why are you choosing to lie about this, SC? You as always can show evidence for your claims. I’m not betting on that happening.

        And of course, no evidence to support your claims that your religion is the origin of morality or compassion. You may cackle as you wish, still doesn’t make anything you say true. The rest of the world always had these values; Christianity has tried to claim it is the sole source just like so many other religions. This is reminiscent of when some Christians try to claim anyone who invented or discovered something important, etc as being a Christian, even when they were not. It’s an attempt to claim someone for your “team” in order to make yourselves feel special. Alas, it relies on simple lies. Einstein and Newton are some of the prime examples of this and it always shows just how lazy or ignorant some Christians are when it comes to knowing nothing about the people they claim.

        Oh my. As I said, the day was as long as ten days. It’s like when you claim that the day was longer because the sun stopped and surprise, didn’t set when it was supposed to. But nice try though. I do wonder, how does a time period of ten days equal maybe two days as the bible claims, SC? Which is wrong, the Chinese myth or yours? You also have no idea when the supposed Joshua event happened nor do you have any idea when the supposed Chinese event happened. You assume it is, but sincen we have don’t have a time that shows this happened, and that one myth claims a time period 5 times as long as the other, it’s wonderful to see you trying to fit a square peg into a round hole since you so desperately need claims to support your faith.

        So where are these “fifty” myths, SC? Still none shown by your nor by other Christians. Where are the “countless” myths you claimed? They do keep getting smaller in number, don’t they? Please also do tell why we should think that the Chinese exaggerated and the Jews did not? Evidence please. You can also cite the native American myth, but again, SC, when did they happen? Evidently back when animals talked since if you actually read the myths, they have animals using magic (in this case Rabbit) which must be true since you are insisting the rest is. Where is the myth about a long day in Babylon? And since some of the African myths that supposedly exist and are cited by the egocentricity (I love how word tries to change to that to “egocentricity) website say that their myths were about a long night, how does that work with your claims of a long day in that part of the world? You see, SC, you pick and choose and you have no idea what day or year this supposedly occurred and when the other myths were claimed to have occurred. Since there are quite interesting differences in events and times, there is no “coincidence”.

        Oh and there is a link to your site that you claimed falsely did not mention geocentricity. I’ll let that link remain to show you consistently cite it and made false claims about it.

        You certainly don’t need pictures if you have evidence, SC. You can write about it. In that I know that there are no artifacts to support your claims about exodus, it would be curious what you had pictures of. Again, you can cite the artifact, who discovered it and its current location. where are these? The Cairo museum? The Museum of Natural History? The British Museum? Here is a pretty thorough list of artifacts from the middle east: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artifacts_in_biblical_archaeology You may tell us what ones are related to the exodus or cite any other one. You see, SC, no images are needed, just information and a list.

      • “I have not said your links don’t exist. I have repeatedly said that no one needs to do your work for you. But please to keep posting false claims, SC.”

        LOL. I obviously posted the link. The difference between “doing the work for you” is simply CLICKING on it LOL. That’s not “doing the work” for anyone — you ask “what’s on the link” — and what is on is a series of archaeological discoveries that conform to the Biblical narrative of the exodus, such as specific recorded details in the Bible about when the exodus happened.

        “Please do show where the FFRF are terrorists, SC (terrorism: the systematic use of terror { a state of intense fear: violent or destructive acts {as bombing committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands} especially as a means of coercion) . ”

        I obviously didn’t mean they bomb people — but I call them terrorists because their insane people who constantly persecute institutions for even THINKING about allowing Christian to practice their faith. Complete garbage.

        ” It’s rather like when Christians claim to be persecuted in the US, when they have thousands of churches, hundreds of tv and radio stations, bookstores, etc. ”

        Obvious nonsense, there is obvious persecution. Nowadays, you’ll probably lose your job if you express anti-homosexuality views, many people lost their jobs for simply having Bible verses on their desks (I was reading yesterday on a military dude who got court marshalled for a Bible verse that says something like “weapons can’t hurt me”), many churches have in fact been burned down and saying “MERRY CHRISTMAS” rather than “happy holidays” is becoming an increasing stigma. Anyone who is blind to this is blind on purpose.

        You go on to give a Wikipedia link to ancient artifacts relevant to my blog. The ones I could identify that are included in the post include the Merneptah Stele, Amarna Tablets, and… Those are the only ones I could find in your Wikipedia article relevant to my blog.

        BY THE WAAAAAAY LOL

        DID YOU NOT SEE HOW EASY IT WAS FOR ME TO CLICK ON YOUR LINK? ROFL.

        “You certainly don’t need pictures if you have evidence, SC. You can write about it. ”

        Removing my illustrations of archaeological sites and “writing about it” would necessitate me to re-write quite a bit of the blog (or add on). Which of course, is a wasted effort for both of us. For me, I would obviously need to re-write it, and for you, you would need to read even more with less understand due to a loss of visuals.

        “Again, you can cite the artifact, who discovered it and its current location. where are these? The Cairo museum? The Museum of Natural History? The British Museum?”

        LOL. What does their modern location have to do with anything? Citing a scholarly paper on the inscription is enough.

        “They sue hotels that were part of governmentally owned organizations because it is unconstitutional for a government entity to show religious favoritism. ”

        Complete garbage, privately owned hotels and privately owned companies can allow Christians to maintain a Bible in a drawer. “Unconstitutional”, LOL! You’d clearly be a great Nero for todays Christians :).

        “And of course, no evidence to support your claims that your religion is the origin of morality or compassion. ”

        I’ve already established this beyond a reasonable doubt. Stomping on the ground and refusing the evidence when given over and over doesn’t constitute an argument.

        “Oh my. As I said, the day was as long as ten days. It’s like when you claim that the day was longer because the sun stopped and surprise, didn’t set when it was supposed to. But nice try though. I do wonder, how does a time period of ten days equal maybe two days as the bible claims, SC?”

        In my previous comment, I named about ten different traditions (and also gave a lnk to many others) with “long days”, “long nights”, or 2x day/2x night — the Chinese one is the only one that says “10 days”, and as I explained earlier, it’s extraordinary easy to see how the Chinese myth would evolve from the Chinese recording a long day to an exaggeration of “10 days”, theological development is far too unbelievably common in myths. The extraordinary thing of course is that the half of the Earth on Joshua’s side of the Earth records a long day/2x day/10x day all over it, and the other half of the world, where it would be night during Joshua’s day, have tons of myths that record a “long night” or 2x night. In my previous comment, I gave the same citation for all of these that I’ve been giving so many times now, and it’s this: http://www.geocentricity.com/astronomy_of_bible/jld/
        — this link references numerous scholarly papers and works, and is full of citations and is a very good and very thorough explanation of all of these things. Your mass ignorance and inability to actually click on links will probably get in the way of you confirming it, though.

      • Again, SC, no one has said your links don’t exist, so chalk up one more lie for you. If you have evidence, you may post it here. You can cut and paste your information, I would suggest putting up what you think is the strongest evidence if you are having issues being able to do basic things on the computer, as you seem to be having. You also seem to be unable to cite the year or day that any of these events have happened, and it is known that Christians don’t agree on the few days and years that they actually specify. They also don’t agree on what is to be taken literally or figuratively in the bible. I have yet to see you show any evidence on why I should take your version over every other Christian and theist’s claims. This is getting repetitive, but to paraphrase Steve Rogers, I can do this all day. It’s that important to stop people who think that they have some right to lie to others and take away their ability to make an informed decision. I cannot of course do that everywhere at every time, but I do what I can.

        Ah, there we go again, SC trying to rewrite history to excuse his lies. You called the FFRF terrorists, which is indeed a claim that they do exactly what other terrorists do, try to control people with violence and fear. As has already been pointed out, Christians are not being persecuted by the FFRF or any other organization, they are kept to their constitutional requirements. It’s so pathetic when you try to claim so and thus denigrate the actual persecution that is happening to Christians. Considering that there are thousands of churches of all sects in the US (ten pages in my local yellow pages alone), millions of church meetings every week, hundreds of tv and radio stations that are Christian, hundreds of Christian bookstores, meetings of thousands of Christians in great public celebrations (the Creation Festival is held here in PA not far from where I live and its attendance is between 50K and 100K annually), etc, just how are Christians being prevented from practicing their faith, SC? Now, compare your claims of persecution in the US, to what happens to Christians elsewhere, where they are hacked by machetes, burned alive, imprisoned for years, etc. Why would you choose to lie about such things, SC?

        Where is the evidence for your claims “Nowadays, you’ll probably lose your job if you express anti-homosexuality views, many people lost their jobs for simply having Bible verses on their desks (I was reading yesterday on a military dude who got court marshalled for a Bible verse that says something like “weapons can’t hurt me”), many churches have in fact been burned down and saying “MERRY CHRISTMAS” rather than “happy holidays” is becoming an increasing stigma.”? A few churches have been burnt, and disfigured, and so have synagogues and mosques. So again, your claims are shown to be false. I do agree that Christians do get stigmatized and that is because of the actions of Christians. Doing your best to declare that some people are less than human, don’t deserve equal rights, and telling misinformation and outright lies do have a tendency to cast you in a bad light. It is a shame that all Christians can be tarred with the same brush as Christians like you who have demonstrated that being a Christian doesn’t make one a decent person. Again, still waiting for you to show how atheists are “evil” etc.

        Funny how I can say Merry Christmas to my Christian friends and I have no problems at all. I also wish my Jewish friends a happy Hanukah, my Wiccan friends a happy Yule and my atheists friends a happy solstice. It’s not about me, SC, but about the person I am speaking to. If I don’t know what religion someone is, or isn’t, I’ll just say happy holidays because it is polite and friendly.

        I understand that some Christians are wannabee martyrs. However, lying about it does nothing for you, SC. Christians aren’t uniformly anti-homosexual, many are quite sure that their god loves homosexuals and has no problem with what someone does with their genitals. There are also plenty of anti-homosexual non-Christians, so you again fail at that. Happily, there are secular laws that prevent people from discriminating against people they don’t like, from homosexuals, people of various races, people of various religions, etc and keeps them from interfering with other people’s lives. You can discriminate as much as you’d like, but if you want to in public, then you have responsibilities. Would you claim that preventing a Christian discriminating against a Jew is persecution? How about a protestant discriminating against a Catholic? Is that persecution? Is keeping people from saying “No Irish wanted” persecution? You see, SC, your religious rights end as soon as they impact me, but no Christian is prevented from shouting from the rooftops how much they don’t like some group. You reap what you sow. As a final point, wow, we have how many Christian blogs who publish whatever they want, just like yours? Poor things, how persecuted! All it seems that you want, SC, is a theocracy with only your version of your religion.

        Yep, I give a wiki link on my very own blog. To paraphrase The Outer Limits, I control the horizontal and I control the vertical. It seems you may be finally learning how this works. Let’s look at the artifacts you cited as having to do with the biblical Exodus.

        Merneptah Stele – This is a stone inscription that is the oldest mention of the name “Israel” yet found (the inscription is, roughly, ysir_r, which is assumed to mean Israel, but literally means “foreign people” in the hieroglyphics used). It’s dated to between 1212-1203 BC, during the reign of the pharaoh Merneptah. The inscription is about a victory of this pharaoh over Israel in around 1208 “Israel is laid waste and his seed is not; Hurru is become a widow because of Egypt.” It’s a nice bit of propaganda as most ancient Egyptian stone inscriptions are. It also appears to show conquered Canaanites on the stele, which would indicate that either the Israelites are Canaanites (a concept accepted by modern scholars which think that Israelites were a religious split from the Canaanites) How does this relate to the biblical exodus, SC? When did the biblical exodus happen? I do have to wonder if you actually looked the entries for these artifacts.

        Amarna Tablets – which are called the Amarna letters on the wiki entry. They are dated between 1388 – 1353 BC (Amenhotep III reign), through Akhenaten’s reign and the date of the desertion of the city that they were found in, around 1332 BC. They are letters between the government in Egypt at that time and their representatives in Canaan, as well as letters between governments. They are considered a good source for information about the Canaanitic language. They mention a group called the Habiru (sometimes Apiru or Hapiru)), which may or may not be a possible reference to Hebrews(various interpretations are bandits, vagrants, mounted bowmen, etc depending on the context where the word is found. The association is doubted by the Zondervan Bible Dictionary). How does this relate to the biblical exodus, SC? When did the biblical exodus happen?

        And I said you can provide the names and locations of the artifacts you claim if they are not listed on the wiki page. I’m still waiting. Considering your claims about the above artifacts and your ignorance about them, there is no reason to think that your picture would help your case. It is not a wasted effort if you wish to present your evidence. The modern locations show that they were researched by experts. Or do you have lovely things like the chariot wheels that Ron Wyatt claimed to see in the Red Sea and was not so mysteriously unable to recover?

        It seems, like many Christians who claim that Jesus Christ was real, mistake a reference about a people as evidence for magical things happening that have no evidence at all. If this were a coherent argument, it would also mean that ever mention of every believer in every god was evidence that those gods and their attendant magical event happened. You are quite welcome to put up your citation of scholarly papers and inscriptions as you admit that this should be enough “Citing a scholarly paper on the inscription is enough.” I would remind you to remember what a scholarly paper is, peer-reviewe, with citations.

        I do love how you claim “complete garbage” and still have no evidence about the FFRF. Thanks for doubling down on your lies, SC. What does a god that says he hates liars think about that? And thanks for showing you have no idea what the US Constitution says.
        Again, it’s amusing when you insist that you have done something you haven’t. Again, no one else would so I guess you are stuck with that. I’m still waiting for the evidence that no culture or civilization other than those influenced by Christianty had compassion or morals. The code of Hammurabi is older than your myths and those codify morality that existed. Ancient China and Egypt had the golden rule without any need of your religion. Neaderthal burials show that they cared for each other, even after horrific injury (Shanidar 1) and old age. Burials were conducted with care in the Neolithic too, 9,500 years ago. If you did provide evidence, then you should be able to cut and paste it here. I’m waiting.

        Again, there are no “ten different traditions” listed at all, SC. The link you gave also doesn’t have the myths, only vague claims that “x” culture had a myth, but not so strangely, the myths aren’t actually given. Let’s see what you did say “My reference wasn’t to NASA, bud. I’ve already known that some dude made up some NASA thing about Joshua’s day, but that wasn’t my argument, LOL. The fact is, if you look all over the world during the time of Joshua, you’ll suddenly see COUNTLESS myths arise speaking of a “day twice the length of a regular day”, it’s simply astonishing. But here’s the crazier part — remember, the Earth is a sphere, so if its day on Joshua’s side (Israel), it’s night on the other side of the world (North & South America, etc). And lo’ and behold, if you look at the worlds myths during the time of Joshua where it was supposed to be night, you hear of countless myths that speak of a “night twice the length of a regular night”. It is simply astonishing, in utter miraculous confirmation of the divinity spoken by God in Joshua 10. In the following link, completely skip the article (exposing the NASA fraud) and skip down to the part where it says “From one of our readers”, and read that: https://bible.org/question/has-%E2%80%9Cmissing-day%E2%80%9D-joshua-been-proven-scientificallyhttps://bible.org/question/has-%E2%80%9Cmissing-day%E2%80%9D-joshua-been-proven-scientifically ” A lovely website which also doesn’t give the myths. You’ve also still failed to present the 7 times that the pharaoh rejected this god in Exodus 1-3.

        Yes, it is easy to see how a myth could be distorted, just like yours, SC. You insist that your version has to be right, but sadly enough, you have no evidence and the Chinese one could be just as true as yours, considering the lack of evidence for either. You lie again when you claim that “half the earth” saw a long day, and you have yet to tell us when that day supposedly was. What year and day was that, SC? And what year and day did the other supposed events happen? You also lie when you make the baseless claim that half the earth saw a long night. Still waiting for that evidence, SC.

        Oh and a link back to that website that you lied about and said didn’t contain any geocentric nonsense. The link on that bible website has a link that claims to have “the historical lore of the Aztecs, Peruvians, and Babylonians “ amazingly only links to a page that has a bit about the Chinese myth and make the false claim that it is about a single day, the claim about Herodotus, and a claim about a “Mexican” myth about a year called “seven rabbits”. Mexicans? And then it makes the same claim about the NASA story. The geocentric website contains no scholarly works, which indeed are peer reviewed as you’ve noted before. It does contain baseless claims by people who are not astronomers and some hilarious nonsense like the sun goes around the earth, and this wonderful bit “Perhaps the strongest geocentric verse in the Bible is Joshua 10:13: And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
        Here the Moderator of Scripture, the Holy Ghost Himself, endorses the daily movement of the sun and moon.”

        I also love the constant creationist versus creationist enemnity that the geocentric website shows so well.

        And as noted before, this website does mention some supposed myths (see where I commented about Herodotus), but again they don’t match the claims of the bible. Did a rabbit catch the sun, SC? Why not believe the Omahas’ myth? What day and year was this? The Aztec myth says no sun for many years, not a longish day. The bible says the sun stopped at midday, so why the differences in the other myths, like when Maui caught the sun, on *that* side of the world, which would mean darkness on the side with Palestine? Thanks for posting that link again to see even more discrepancies with your claims. I like it so much, I’ll let it remain and post it here for good measure: http://www.geocentricity.com/astronomy_of_bible/jld/

      • “Again, SC, no one has said your links don’t exist, so chalk up one more lie for you. ”

        You’re obviously the liar, as you seem to be trying to pretend that they don’t exist. I obviously recognize that you can physically comprehend with your brain that they are there. LOL.

        “You can cut and paste your information, I would suggest putting up what you think is the strongest evidence if you are having issues being able to do basic things on the computer, as you seem to be having. ”

        Nonsense, I put forth a collective case in my blog. The “strongest evidence” alone isn’t as strong as all the evidences together.

        “You also seem to be unable to cite the year or day that any of these events have happened, and it is known that Christians don’t agree on the few days and years that they actually specify. ”

        What event? Are you talking about the exodus? I talk about the dating of the exodus in my blog, go figure.

        “Ah, there we go again, SC trying to rewrite history to excuse his lies. You called the FFRF terrorists,”

        Which is exactly what they are, they are terrorists that must be jailed.

        You go on to repeat the same question regarding Christian persecution that I literally answered in my last post to you — I’m obviously not repeating myself for someone who has a hard time even reading my posts. Most of your comment is entirely repetition anyways.

        “Where is the evidence for your claims “Nowadays, you’ll probably lose your job if you express anti-homosexuality views, many people lost their jobs for simply having Bible verses on their desks (I was reading yesterday on a military dude who got court marshalled for a Bible verse that says something like “weapons can’t hurt me”), many churches have in fact been burned down and saying “MERRY CHRISTMAS” rather than “happy holidays” is becoming an increasing stigma.”? A few churches have been burnt, and disfigured, and so have synagogues and mosques. So again, your claims are shown to be false.”

        Complete garbage, my claims aren’t shown to be false in an exact statement where you admit they are true, but that it is “also happening to synagogues and mosques” — but obviously not nearly as much as it is happening to churches. In other words, you think if one mosque gets damaged but ten churches are burned down, my claims are “false”. This shows your incomprehensible inability to judge facts.

        “Again, still waiting for you to show how atheists are “evil” etc. ”

        More nonsense I’ve already answered, repeating the same question doesn’t make the responses go away. Do you even read my debunkings of your nonsense?

        “There are also plenty of anti-homosexual non-Christians, so you again fail at that.”

        Which part did I fail here? LOL. Next, you’ll be saying that I failed because Saudi Arabia outlaws homosexuality. There is obviously no statement in my comments that say only Christians are against homosexuality and only homosexuals are affected by being against homosexuality. So that’s another lie on your part.

        ” I do have to wonder if you actually looked the entries for these artifacts.
        Amarna Tablets – which are called the Amarna letters on the wiki entry. They are dated between 1388 – 1353 BC”

        I literally explained the dating of the tablets in my blog. This guy is an obvious troll, it’s no wonder you’re having such a hard time understanding my argument — considering you haven’t read it. Any further discussion where on the exodus will be ignored unless you actually read the argument, as it is amazingly useless for me to clarify something you didn’t even take the time to read, including discussion on the Merneptah Stele, Habiru’s, and anything else of course. Any inability to read the argument but still claim there are any problems with the exodus will also be ignored as obvious bare assertion fallacies. Let me know if you need me to post the link.

        “The code of Hammurabi is older than your myths and those codify morality that existed. Ancient China and Egypt had the golden rule without any need of your religion. ”

        Egypt invaded so many countries in its imperial times during the second millenium BC and there has been so many civil wars and wars that China has been part of during its time as well, that I find it abhorrent that you call these nations “moral without Christianity”. It’s kind of like saying a mass murderer is moral because he keeps a list of the Ten Commandments in his pocket.

        “You’ve also still failed to present the 7 times that the pharaoh rejected this god in Exodus 1-3. ”

        Another lie on your part, as I never said it happened in Exodus 1-3. I already cited my blog on this issue with all the references to when pharaoh hardened his own heart, and how they all predate the times where pharaoh hardens his own heart (except one).

        “You insist that your version has to be right, but sadly enough, you have no evidence and the Chinese one could be just as true as yours, considering the lack of evidence for either. ”

        Another lie on your part, the EVIDENCE is the fact that on one side of the Earth, cultures from all over the world suddenly have this “very long day” (Joshua’s side), and on the other side of the world, there are suddenly all these myths of long nights. This is a collective case for Joshua’s day, which easily establishes it happens. One must, to claim this is false, explain the enormous “coincidence” of all these myths in specific regions of the world, Joshua’s side and the other side.

        “The geocentric website contains no scholarly works, which indeed are peer reviewed as you’ve noted before. It does contain baseless claims by people who are not astronomers and some hilarious nonsense like the sun goes around the earth, and this wonderful bit “Perhaps the strongest geocentric verse in the Bible is Joshua 10:13: And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies.”

        Obvious garbage — the link I gave to when this geocentricity website talks about Joshua’s day (I obviously didn’t cite any of their other works, so attacking that is clear dishonesty) references numerous scholarly publications and what historians have to say about the various myths from around the world on Joshua’s day. You obviously run away from its list of countless citations on the bottom of the article for all its claims and attack its other views, as you can’t possibly handle the facts. But you try one last trick:

        “but again they don’t match the claims of the bible. Did a rabbit catch the sun, SC? Why not believe the Omahas’ myth? ”

        Your lack of ability to comprehend theological development across ancient cultures is disturbing. When a tornado happens, sometimes an ancient culture would take that tornado event, and mix it in with the claims of its own religion. Likewise, when the sun and Earth stop and the peoples around the world clearly record it at about the same time, many of them mix it into their own mythologies — the Natives mix in the stopping of the sun with their Native mythologies, the Chinese with their Chinese mythologies, and the Babylonians with their Babylonian mythologies. The Natives had something with rabbits. Your inability to decipher how this all works is amazing to me.

        But — something good did come out of this. You actually read a link I posted. It’s almost incomprehensible — I was beginning to think you were illiterate outside of the comment section of WordPress and your own blog site. And now you know of the overwhelming evidence for Joshua’s day.

      • Again, you have yet to show that anyone is pretending that your links do not exist. I have acknowledged them, left a fair number of them through and then when you refused to provide the information in your comments, I have removed the links since you have been repeatedly asked to show your evidence here and not put up blind links that you cannot explain and demand that people go to your blog and read your multi-thousand word posts to in theory find evidence for your claims. It is up for debate what you can recognize and what you cannot not since you have consistently tried to revise what you have claimed, SC. If I can and am able to “physically comprehend with your [my] brain that they are there”, that means that I am not pretending that they are not. Your flailing around trying to rewrite history is getting pretty amazing. It doesn’t work very well in a medium that records your words. That’s why I do love written comments because my opponent’s words are preserved for posterity (or until the server dies), no matter how much they try to revise history. It is a shame that it is necessary to record words because certain theists cannot be trusted.

        If you are unwilling to put up any evidence, that is your choice. If your strongest evidence cannot stand alone, you don’t have much of a case. It’s like reading arguments by people like William Lane Craig, who can’t show that there was a tomb, much less an empty one, but tries to bolster his case with progressively weaker and weaker arguments.

        Ah, what a nice display of pretended ignorance. At least that is the most generous interpretation of someone who can’t figure out what events we’ve been discussing. The stopping of the sun in the sky, SC. The Exodus. That I understand that Christians and Jews do not agree on the dating, please do demonstrate how yours is the correct one and the others are not. When are the dates SC? It should take cutting and pasting more than 50 or 60 characters. With these dates we can even see just how correct your claims are about Christianity and the bible being the only moral source. I do wonder, is it moral to kill people for working on the Sabbath? To make someone marry their rapist? To make a husband either choose to be with his family and always be a slave or be free? All good God-given bible laws. You good with those? JC says that all of his father’s laws are to be obeyed until the heavens and earth pass away, and they are very much in evidence so far.

        Again, where has the FFRF used violence and fear to get their way? I’m waiting, SC. You’ve tried to call the FFRF terrorists and have tried to walk that back by saying you didn’t mean it. You’ve also got out your violent fantasies with attacking them with a bat. “I’m also very sad to hear you read from the Freedom from Religion foundation, a terrorist organization that sues children schools because they allow the kids, if they want to, to gather up for a Bible class after the day is over. Freedom from Religion foundation is something I’d happily destroy with a bat.” I am grateful to see you admit that you would use violence and fear to get your own way. Why should someone be jailed for pointing out that religious organizations break the law, SC?

        Your claims about Christian persecution in the US are hilarious, SC and they are also pathetic since you denigrate the actual persecution that happens, with your whining about how dare prevent theists from forcing their religion on others. I have asked you this, SC: “Considering that there are thousands of churches of all sects in the US (ten pages in my local yellow pages alone), millions of church meetings every week, hundreds of tv and radio stations that are Christian, hundreds of Christian bookstores, meetings of thousands of Christians in great public celebrations (the Creation Festival is held here in PA not far from where I live and its attendance is between 50K and 100K annually), etc, just how are Christians being prevented from practicing their faith, SC?” This is what you claimed “Obvious nonsense, there is obvious persecution. Nowadays, you’ll probably lose your job if you express anti-homosexuality views, many people lost their jobs for simply having Bible verses on their desks (I was reading yesterday on a military dude who got court marshalled for a Bible verse that says something like “weapons can’t hurt me”), many churches have in fact been burned down and saying “MERRY CHRISTMAS” rather than “happy holidays” is becoming an increasing stigma”

        So we have a “probably”, which you have not supported with evidence. You have yet to show where people have lost their jobs for “simply having bible verses on their desks”. You have yet to give the article name and source of this supposed “military dude”. I have agreed that some churches have been harmed, and have pointed out that other religious buildings have too. They are a very small number, including at least one recently burnt by a church member and many are predominantly African American churches. There was also one near where I live that some idiots painted supposed black magic symbols on. Now, please consider number of damaged churches, and other places of worship, to the total number (here is a interesting article about religious building fires and their provenance from the National Fire Protection Association: http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-research/fire-statistics-and-reports/fire-statistics/fires-by-property-type/assemblies/religious-and-funeral-properties ) . Where is the “many”, SC? And where is saying “merry Christmas” a “stigma” in the US? Where can’t you say it? Thanks for not answering one of my questions regarding your supposed persecution. Your comprehension skills are also in question since not once did I say anything like this “In other words, you think if one mosque gets damaged but ten churches are burned down, my claims are “false”. That’s one more lie, SC, a strawman you invented to attack. To harm places of worship is a bad thing; to try to prevent one group from practicing their religion and force them to practice another is a bad thing; to force the children who are not of your religion to practice your religion is a bad thing. To allow people to have the freedom to choose whether to worship or not is a good thing. I would guess that you would have a fit if the government sided with one religion and said everyone had to follow it. But you have no problem in demanding the same thing for your version of your religion.

        You are correct that a lot of my posts are repetition. That is what is required when someone continues to lie and make false claims like you have. Every time you lie or try to spread false information, there is a rebuttal demonstrating your actions and presenting accurate information. You’ve been really racking them up.

        Still waiting for you to show how atheists are evil, etc, SC. I certainly do read your supposed “debunkings”, and have asked you to support your baseless claims. Please do show how pointing out you are wrong and your bible is wrong is “evil”. It seems that again the toddler is just lashing out for anyone daring to correct him.

        You fail in your claims that Christians are being persecuted for being bigots by forgetting that not all Christians are bigots. You said the above quote starting with “Obvious nonsense, there is obvious persecution…” which in context was about Christians, correct, SC? And you tried to make the argument that Christians are persecuted for holding such beliefs, when as noted, they all do not. This again goes to my point of Christians not agreeing on what their god thinks is sin, what it wants, etc. There was nothing about how “only homosexuals are affected by being against homosexuality”, whatever that might mean.

        The Amarna tables were claimed by you to have something to do with the biblical exodus “You go on to give a Wikipedia link to ancient artifacts relevant to my blog. The ones I could identify that are included in the post include the Merneptah Stele, Amarna Tablets, and… Those are the only ones I could find in your Wikipedia article relevant to my blog.” . What do they have to do with it, SC? The tablets reflect the correspondence of Egyptian government officials in Israel and correspondence from other government leaders. No exodus, no ten plagues, no destruction of the entire Egyptian army. No records of a million people wandering around an area the size of half of Pennsylvania for 4 decades on either the Amarna tablets or the Merneptha stele. The dating of the tablets is what it is, and again, there is no agreed upon date for the exodus, SC. As I have indicated repeatedly, you came here making claims and I am not interested in your need to have people look at your blog. You will either provide the evidence here, or you may choose not to. You may also refute my points about the Merneptha stele and show how it relates to the exodus, an event you have yet to give a date/year for and to show that your version is the only right one and the other Christian claims are not.

        If going to war is your reason to consider a government immoral, thank you for demonstrating that all Christian governments are immoral, SC, since they have all gone to war, both civil and with countries of different religions. So, are these Christian countries mass murders with a copy of the ten commandments in their pockets? I doubt you are quite this ignorant, but are desperate and choose to ignore history in favor of hoping someone will believe your nonsense without thinking. Many, if not most, countries are moral to their own people and again they have the laws codifying that.

        SC, you claimed the following for the pharaoh. “You’ll realize if you read the references, the first time God hardens pharaohs heart, is after pharaoh hardened his own heart as recorded 7 times.” Since this god hardens the pharoah’s heart for the very first time in Exodus 4: 21 The LORD said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.” This would indicate that these seven times would have to be in Exodus 1-3. You made the claim, SC, so you are expected to be able to support that claim. If you cannot, then again we have you either being woefully ignorant or you are trying spread false claims intentionally as a liar. Thus it seems you either have forgotten this, or are trying again to revise history. However, this sentence doesn’t make any sense, perhaps you’ll want to explain what you meant “. I already cited my blog on this issue with all the references to when pharaoh hardened his own heart, and how they all predate the times where pharaoh hardens his own heart (except one).” It seems you are tripping yourself up with your attempts to rewrite history and being very inept at it.

        Again, there is no evidence that cultures on one side of the earth have a very long day. There is no date and time recorded for your supposed event in Joshua, and again no way to know if any of these myths happened or on what day, SC. As I have pointed out, there are contradictory myths from the side of the world that Palestine is one, including them having a long night, rather than a long day, which is impossible, if you want to go with your claim that people on the other side of the earth would have long nights. Again, you pick and choose which myths to try to glom on to, and try to ignore the ones that don’t fit. You then try to claim that myths from other cultures simply have to be exaggerated or wrong since they disagree with your particular myth, again, unable to show that your myths aren’t just as mangled. There is again, no coincidence, since there is no match. There is no collective case because the details in the myths do not match. It’s as if you are trying a murder case and are saying “hey, my guy (male) is innocent of a killing at a fruit market because some guy in another country said he saw an woman picking up fruit at a market, and another one said that he saw a Pilipino rabbit eating a piece of fruit. ”

        I did read the geocentricity site in all of its “glory”, SC, because I found it long before you gave it. You may have permission to give a link to a scholarly paper on it. Again, you tried to claim I had no idea what scholarly research was and what research papers were and what they required. I informed you I did. So, it should be no problem for you to produce a link. You also said this “By the way, regardless of the name of the website, it doesn’t argue for geocentricity — so calm down.” And of course the website certainly does have lots about genocentricity ““It is the testimony of God as found in the Bible which constitutes the foundation of modern geocentricity. May it ever be so.” Indeed, it seems again that you either have no idea of what you write, or are again trying to revise history and not because in your nonsense. Again, scholarly articles are peer reviewed and have more than hearsay in them. A scholarly article about Joshua’s sun nonsense would include reference to the actual myths, and quotes from the, not a vague claim of myths existing and then links that go to pages that also have no actual sources on them. Anyone can write a citation. The question is always, what is the citation to? I happily gave the link to this geocentric nonsense just so people can see just how bad it is. You may cling to it though.

        Hmmm, it’s quite a “trick” if you can’t answer it, eh, SC? I asked ““but again they don’t match the claims of the bible. Did a rabbit catch the sun, SC? Why not believe the Omahas’ myth? ” You try your best to claim I am unware of how religions are invented by humans. I do agree, an ancient culture uses religion to explain natural events. Christianity does this all of the time, as do other religions. The bible makes up nonsense like the genesis myths, the magic flood, its god keeping hailstones in a warehouse, this god’s wrath causing sickness, etc. The sun doesn’t stop in the earth’s sky because it doesn’t move (it does move through the universe), and the earth does rotate and orbit. Claims of religions are the ignorance of the age they were invented in. Again, why believe your myths and not the myths of others? You assume yours are the truth, but have no more evidence than the Omahas’. Religious myths claim magical events happened. There is no more reason to think a god stopped the sun in the sky, to think that the sun moves around the earth, or that a rabbit can catch a sun. Again, you may indicate why yours should be taken seriously and the others not. Your god is no different than a magic talking trap making rabbit when it comes to evidence.

        Well,SC, what I’ve gained from discussing things with you are many. I do know of the false claims made by some Christians about the sun going around the earth and how their god supposedly stopped it. I know that some Christians lie about other cultures’ myths. I certainly never saw any “overwhelming evidence” for any of your claims, just like there is no overwhelming evidence for some Christians who think that the earth was created 6000 years ago in 7 literal days or some Christians who want to pretend that the days really honestly mean millions or billions of years but god was there too. Which should we believe, SC? It does get confusing for many Christians because they want to decide a word should be accepted as literal in one instance but considered metaphor in another. One gets to see some Christians insisting on a day being a literal day/rotation of earth, and we get a *very* silly creation myth. Then we have some creationists who are sure that the days are “really” millions if not billions of years, which is not quite so silly. Where it causes even more amusement is when we have JC saying he’ll return before the generation he is speaking to is dead. Now, if we say a generation can be around 20 years (a common reference for ancient peoples with their higher mortality), it can be literally 20 years. But that doesn’t work with what supposedly happened. WE could assume some really really old people wandering around that no one has noticed. We also could go with the bible and say that since a thousand years is only a day to this god and a thousand years is a day, it could mean that JC will not return for as many god days as there is in 20 god years, which would be 7,300 god days or 7,300,000 human years, which is going to be quite a disappointment for the Christians who are quite sure that they are the elect and this god will come “real soon now” so they can get their sadistic jollies. This is what comes about picking and choosing in your bible, with every Christian having a different magic decoder ring.

      • “Again, you have yet to show that anyone is pretending that your links do not exist. I have acknowledged them, left a fair number of them through and then when you refused to provide the information in your comments, I have removed the links since you have been repeatedly asked to show your evidence here and not put up blind links that you cannot explain and demand that people go to your blog and read your multi-thousand word posts to in theory find evidence for your claims.”
        k
        CANNOT EXPLAIN? LOL, I literally did all the explaining in the actual blog. That’s why it’s so long.

        “you have consistently tried to revise what you have claimed, ”

        False.

        “It’s like reading arguments by people like William Lane Craig, who can’t show that there was a tomb, much less an empty one, but tries to bolster his case with progressively weaker and weaker arguments.”

        WILLIAM LANE FREAKING CRAIG can’t show there’s an empty tomb? Is that why the vast majority of historians are in full recognition of it? This is an obvious lie, and you’re either incompetent or you simply don’t understand the premise of historical investigation. Craig has published a full peer-reviewed paper that anyone can read any time on the historicity of the empty tomb, and he has even provided the full paper on his website ReasonableFaith so that anyone at all can read it. Please try to dismantle his overwhelming case. {link has been removed because commenter has been repeatedly asked to provide quotes and information from links and not just post a link, thinking others will do his work for him}

        The case is utterly overwhelming and has convinced the very good majority of critical scholars. Your lack of awareness in this field is humiliating. Craig has a Masters Degree in Church History with a summa cum laude — alone stamping out any credentials you have regarding this field. That’s obviously not to mention his Masters in Religion, doctorate in Theology and doctorate in Philosophy, with one of the highest H-Index’s in the entire field as well as a man who is regularly invited to the top universities in the world to lecture.

        “Again, where has the FFRF used violence and fear to get their way? ”

        Violence? They don’t use violence — they are lobbyists who attempt to stamp out religious freedom from the country they reside in.

        “Your claims about Christian persecution in the US are hilarious,”

        And this story came out yesterday:
        {link has been removed because commenter has been repeatedly asked to provide quotes and information from links and not just post a link, thinking others will do his work for him}

        The only thing hilarious is your lack of hindsight. In the last few days I saw a story of an atheist organization (more terrorists I guess) that tried to shut down a CHRISTIAN CHARITY THAT FEEDS THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN IN THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES because they may try to “convert” the kids. Damn. Atheists are the worst of the worst (except maybe for the terrorist Muslims).

        “just how are Christians being prevented from practicing their faith, SC?”

        LOL! Did I say in ALL ways? No, of course not. But if someone is against homosexuality (even if they don’t discriminate or attack any of the homos), they can kiss their job goodbye. Which is ridiculous.

        ” You will either provide the evidence here, or you may choose not to. You may also refute my points about the Merneptha stele and show how it relates to the exodus, an event you have yet to give a date/year for and to show that your version is the only right one and the other Christian claims are not. ”

        I’ve already done all of this on the blog, and thus I have obviously no purpose nor need to re-do it. Again, you could have read my entire blog ten times over by now in the time you’ve spent claiming that it doesn’t count unless I copy and paste it into the comments, LLOL. Anyways,

        “Well,SC, what I’ve gained from discussing things with you are many. I do know of the false claims made by some Christians about the sun going around the earth and how their god supposedly stopped it. I know that some Christians lie about other cultures’ myths. I certainly never saw any “overwhelming evidence” for any of your claims”

        What I DO KNOW now is that you’ve read the geocentricity link I sent you, meaning you ARE in fact aware of the overwhelming historical evidence and clearly have no response. This is classical and hilarious.

      • “WILLIAM LANE FREAKING CRAIG can’t show there’s an empty tomb? Is that why the vast majority of historians are in full recognition of it? ”

        SC, please do show where these “majority of historians are in full recognition of it”. I will remove your links until, again, you can show you can use them responsibly.

      • “SC, please do show where these “majority of historians are in full recognition of it”. I will remove your links until, again, you can show you can use them responsibly.”

        Gary Habermas has conducted a massive survey of the peer-reviewed literature on this subject, reviewing hundreds (I think up to 1,400 papers were surveyed) of published papers in various languages. One of the research trends discovered is that about 75% of scholars favor the empty tomb explanation, whilst 25% favor one or more explanations that discount the empty tomb. Gary’s research was published. Citation: Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus, 3.2 (2005), pp. 135-153

        Again, you claim Craig cannot prove the empty tomb when he has published a VERY long and VERY GOOD paper on this that I gave you in my previous link, but of course you deleted it (as if you have a phobia of links or something). This is simply the nature of historical studies, and this is what the evidence indicates. If you think Craig fails to show this in his scholarly work, the LEAST you can do is actually view it. Isn’t that how science works? LOL

        “and thanks again, SC, for making claims about how some charity is being shut down, something you supposedly saw within the last few days, but surprise, no name of the charity, no name of who is trying to shut it down. It seems that again, SC is trying to throw shit at a wall and hopes some of it sticks.
        Tsk.”

        The name of both the charity and person trying to shut it down was given in the news story I gave you. Why didn’t you read it? It wasn’t even long — you truly have a phobia of links.

      • “The only thing hilarious is your lack of hindsight. In the last few days I saw a story of an atheist organization (more terrorists I guess) that tried to shut down a CHRISTIAN CHARITY THAT FEEDS THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN IN THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES because they may try to “convert” the kids. Damn. Atheists are the worst of the worst (except maybe for the terrorist Muslims).”

        where is the source for this, SC. It was not on your post, which had a link to WLC’s nonsense and to Fox news about how a comptroller is holding the AFA accountable to state laws. No link to this last claim.

      • Shucks, I have a phobia of links? What a funny thing to say since I use them all of the time. Would it be that you are trying to make up a strawman to attack?

        Habermas’ claims are here: http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles/J_Study_Historical_Jesus_3-2_2005/J_Study_Historical_Jesus_3-2_2005.htm There is no list of the supposedly 1400 scholarly papers, nor any definition on how they were determined to be “scholarly”. The review was regarding the historical Jesus, not some empty tomb claim of WLCs. This is notably not the entity that Christians worship but a possible itinerant rabbi who may have thought he was a messiah and who may have been killed for it, by either the Romans or the Jews. There is still no location of this tomb. Habermas does do a good job of showing how Christians cut and paste what they want when trying to make sense of their myths when he writes about Crossan and Wright. All Habermas ends up with is “people thought they saw Jesus Christ”, no more, no less.

        Where is the tomb, SC? I’ve already read WLC, a long time ago, and I know how his claims fail. That’s why I compared you to him. If you think there are any good arguments, present them. If you choose not to, that’s fine by me.

      • and thanks again, SC, for making claims about how some charity is being shut down, something you supposedly saw within the last few days, but surprise, no name of the charity, no name of who is trying to shut it down. It seems that again, SC is trying to throw shit at a wall and hopes some of it sticks.

        Tsk.

      • As you have been told, I couldn’t care less what you do on your blog, SC. You came here, claimed I was wrong, and then have done nothing but put up links with no explanation, and are trying your best to get people to look at your blog. If you are unable to provide your evidence for your claims here, there is no reason for this to continue because the parameters of your participation will not change.
        You have indeed consistently tried to revise what you have said. Alas for you, SC, but this is a written and saved medium. I do love watching your attempts to revise what you have claimed about the FFRF.

        Why, now I believe you because you used caps and act like an idiot. Sigh. WLC claims that there is an empty tomb or a tomb at all. He cannot show where it is (there are at least a couple of contenders). And exactly how does one show that something was there that now is not? It is rather amazing that early Christians managed to lose the most important site for their religion. No, the vast majority of historians do not recognize any certain tomb or that it was full then empty. I know what historical investigation is quite well, and I know one has to have a tomb identified before one can insist that events happened in it. The case that WLC claims is considerably less than overwhelming. But again please present anything you find worthwhile.

        WLC’s degrees are no more interesting to me than if someone said that they had degrees in the hindu religion, and had a minor in leprechauns. It’s a nice appeal to authority but without evidence that your, or his, version of his particular god, he and you have no authority and with him justifying genocide, you deserve none. And the h-index, that’s hilarious. It’s a shame that no one but other experts in Ghoulies and ghosties use his work as reference. And which “top universities” have asked WLC to lecture, SC? Or are you just hoping that you’ll be believed without question. It is noted that he certainly doesn’t teach at any universities that are considered “top”. I do like that WLC is a creationist but is sure that other creationists who don’t use his magic decoder ring are wrong. Still no evidence from any side.

        Ah, nice of you to show you were intentionally lying when you claimed the FFRF were “terrorists”. Now we get to see you repudiate your prior claims but you still feel the need to lie. “Violence? They don’t use violence – they are lobbyists who attempt to stamp out religious freedom from the country they reside in.” Hmm, so if they don’t use violence to get their way, then they aren’t terrorists as you have falsely claimed repeatedly. Again, they do not try to stamp out religious freedom at all, they preserve it against the ignorance and actions of some Christians. Still waiting for your evidence to support your claims against them. Of course, you return to you false claims bout atheists being terrorists like a dog returns to its vomit.

        I do love when faux news tries a poison the well tactic. The Comptroller is investigating the American Family Association, a group that does its best to force their version of their sect of their religion on others, trying to prevent people who disagree with them to have religious freedom. If they do not follow the rules for charities, then they will lose their charitable status. They may be as hateful and theocratic as they want but they are responsible for their actions and if they break the law, then they lose their status. Since your bible says that everyone should obey the government without question, sicne all are put in to place by this god, one wonders why you are complaining.

        Again, please provide the name of this Christian charity that feeds thousands of children in third world countries. We can be assured that they very likely do try their best to convert the children from the religions that their parents would want. Now, if you were a parent, would you be okay with strangers coming in, saying your religion is wrong, theirs is right, and holding out bait to accept it?
        Yes, SC, you did say in all ways with your claim that Christians are being persecuted and offering no caveats, so again you try to change what you said because your claims are lies and you’ve been found out. In the US, most states are right to work, and this means that the employer has the right to fire anyone for anything. Ain’t capitalism grand? And if someone hates people for their sexuality, then they make that choice and their employer also gets to make that choice. Unless you want to force people to keep employees? Would that be a lovely thing? People can be as privately hateful as they want, but as soon as they inflict themselves on others, then they lose that right. For instance, that woman in Tenessee would have had no problem if she didn’t think she had the right to enforce her religion by using her government post. But she decided that she wanted to play theocrat, and the US law says she can’t.

        Well, it seem that you have no evidence to show, SC, for your claims. Again, no one cares what is on your blog. I could have indeed read your blog but I don’t care about it and the thousands of other Christian blogs, those thousands who make false claims about how persecuted they are. You came here, SC.

        I read the geocentricity link and no, it doesn’t mean that there is any “overwhelming historical evidence” on that website. There is pages and pages of rather sad baseless claims of how the sun orbits the earth, that the sun somehow stopped in the sky on a day and year that they, and you, can’t figure out, and it’s hilarious to see them try to cite other myths that contradict the myth they want to show happened. I think I might like the claims of having a long day and a long night on the same side of the globe at the same time, or perhaps the claim that other myths must be real so I should be expecting to have a nice chat with a rabbit that can build traps. So, no, SC, my reading something doesn’t make your evidence magically appear. As soon as I find that talking rabbit, I’ll be sure to let you know your myth might be right, but at that point, the Omahas’ myth is in the lead since I’ll actually have a magical being right there.

      • “As you have been told, I couldn’t care less what you do on your blog, SC. You came here, claimed I was wrong, and then have done nothing but put up links with no explanation, and are trying your best to get people to look at your blog.”

        As I explained, getting 2 views is literally worthless to the prolonging of my blog. Thinking that getting two of all your viewers randomly clicking on my blog being my objective here is hilarious.

        ” I do love watching your attempts to revise what you have claimed about the FFRF. ”

        You mean the terrorists? LOL

        “Sigh. WLC claims that there is an empty tomb or a tomb at all. He cannot show where it is (there are at least a couple of contenders). And exactly how does one show that something was there that now is not? ”

        AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

        You subsequently ask me “Where is the tomb, SC?” — showing that your understanding of history is in DRASTIC needing of help. Goodness me. The Roman Empire existed back then and no longer does now — therefore there was no Roman Empire? Seriously? LOL. The fact is, history is determined by ANCIENT RECORDS and sources. We must look at the historical data to know what happened back in history, and the historical verification of the empty tomb is just like the historical confirmation of any other historical event we know to have happened in ancient history (if not greatly superior). As we’ve seen, Habermas has published his findings on New Testament scholarship trends (that is completely uncontested by critics and deniers) that clearly shows an amazing majority of historians affirm the historical veracity of the empty tomb.

        “No, the vast majority of historians do not recognize any certain tomb or that it was full then empty.”

        False, as we’ve seen. I’ve already sent you WLC’s peer-reviewed and published work on the empty tomb as well, so your slandering of WLC is funny.

        “WLC’s degrees are no more interesting to me than if someone said that they had degrees in the hindu religion, and had a minor in leprechauns. It’s a nice appeal to authority but without evidence that your, or his, version of his particular god, he and you have no authority and with him justifying genocide, you deserve none. And the h-index, that’s hilarious. It’s a shame that no one but other experts in Ghoulies and ghosties use his work as reference. And which “top universities” have asked WLC to lecture, SC?”

        Is this serious or a joke? It seems your view on who WLC is and the significance of his credentials has been sharpened by atheist internet propaganda rather than an actual examination of his credentials. All of that is obvious irrelevant and ridiculous nonsense. Of course, Craig has a PhD in Theology and Philosophy, and two Masters — one in the philosophy of Religion and one in the historicity of the Church — both with a summa cum laude. Craig’s arguments for the existence of God are regularly discussed in the top journals of philosophy in the world, and Craig has lectured at universities like Yale, Oxford, etc.

        “I do love when faux news tries a poison the well tactic. The Comptroller is investigating the American Family Association, a group that does its best to force their version of their sect of their religion on others, trying to prevent people who disagree with them to have religious freedom. ”

        This is all just slander against the AFA that I have no time to address. It seems that all your information derives directly from worthless atheistic internet sources that has so greatly made your objective reasoning ineffective, that a world-class philosopher in your eyes is the equivalent of someone who has a minor in leprechauns because he defends Christianity with reasoned evidence and arguments. You claim WLC has not proven an empty tomb — and I subsequently posted WLC’s published work on this in the field and watched you squirm and completely fail to address any of it, and then providing one of the most ridiculous fanciful and nonsensical objections to any ancient historical event ever produced, “where is it now?” lOL.

      • Oh dear, you are cackling again. It’s too bad we can’t get any eggs.

        You have born false witness about other people, including the FFRF, SC. I’m glad you think it’s funny. You have done a world of good showing just how much you ignore your religion.
        Where is the tomb, SC? For your religion to have any basis, where is the tomb that was supposedly emptied? Where is any evidence that any of the essential events of the bible happened? You have refused to present anything. That is your choice.

        Happily for me, my understanding of ancient history and archaeology are quite good. We have plenty of evidence for the Roman Empire, buildings, roads, writings, coins, reports from other cultures, etc. so your analogy fails as always. Nice attempt at a strawman, though. Yep, we have plenty of ancient records and sources for Ancient Rome, Ancient Egypt, Ancient China, Ancient India, etc, so surprise, your claims about your religion fail because there are none for the essential events of your religion.

        Where is this “historical verification of the empty tomb”? No one knows where it is, Paul never mentions it. No other culture mentions it, only mentioning that Christians exist and make these rather peculiar claims. Habermas collected information only about a possible historical Jesus, one that isn’t even the one you claim to worship. Gathering information on how many believe what proves nothing, SC. I am quite happy to see you still trying to make false claims even after the links that show them wrong are presented. When it comes to what Habermas has claimed happened with his myths, then it is quite a lie that no one contests Habermas’ claims. The link is to a very detailed rebuttal of Habermas’ claims by George Albert Wells which cites how theologians disagree with Habermas’ claims, including that the idea of a historical Jesus is not equivalent with believe in a divine entity that did miracles. Why would you choose to lie about something so easy to disprove, SC? There is no majority affirming the “historical veracity of the empty tomb”; there may be a majority that agree with the concept of a possible historical Jesus but not with a historical deity. I can cite what Habermas claims: that there was a death, that the disciples thought they had seen JC resurrected, the disciples were willing to die because of these perceived experiences,, Jesus was buried, the apostles despaired after the death, James thought he had an experience. Paul thought he had an experience, and this story was supposedly spread within a couple of years of the cruxfiction(a date that is not agreed upon by Christians). He claims that the tomb was empty, but again, no evidence of a tomb at all. There is no evidence of a death as claimed in the bible, no walking dead, no earthquake, no darkening of the sky and thus no evidence anyone was dead to be buried. The gospels themselves contradict his claim that the apostles were despairing, since Luke says that they went right back to Jerusalem and celebrated in the *temple*, the very place that was ruled by the people who supposedly caused JC to be cruxified.

        The claimed viewing of a resurrected JC are stories in the bible, no more substantiated than Mohammed’ magic horse ride to Jerusalem or the viewing of a dead yogi by believers. The claim that because someone is willing to die for an idea means that there was a magic god would also mean that there were also aliens hiding behind Comet Hale-Bopp and Buddhists who die for their religion are evidence that their religion is as valid as yours.

        Again, where in WLC’s work does it say that there is a recognized tomb and where it is, SC? Where is this vast majority of historians who recognize said tomb and know where it is and that it was full and then it was magically empty? You see, SC, I’ve read WLC’s claims and I know the answer. But please do show us the words of Craig if you think they indicate a certain tomb and that some vast majority accept his claims.

        Again, WLC’s degrees are no more impressive than some other theist’s degrees in their religion which has no more evidence than other gods or leprechauns. His opinions about his version of Chrisitanity are no more important than than anyone else’s opinions about Christianity. Christians invent their own versions, and, as I have said, they can’t show anyone else’s opinion wrong or their own right.
        Let me guess, SC, you would not find the degrees of some Muslim imam impressive, correct? How about Buddhist priest who has a degree in temples? Does their degrees make their gods as real as you claim yours to be, for that is what you are arguing? Which “top journals of philosophy”, SC? And which “top universities” have asked WLC to lecture? I can find where the Christian student union at Oxford asked WLC to speak to them. This is not the university. He spoke at Yale but not because the university invited him, but because the student group Yale Faith and Action, who is run by Christian Union. Again, your claims fail because you try to present half-truths.

        You certainly seem to have time to tell a lot false things, SC, so why stop with the AFA? Or is it that you have nothing, as usual? The AFA does their best to try to force others to follow their version of their religion, and they work against other Christians who are quite sure that their version is wrong, homosexuals, non-Christians, etc. They spend tens of millions of dollars doing this, and do their darnedest to get people to boycott companies that don’t espouse their particular brand of Christianity. This is their mission statement “The mission of the American Family Association is to inform, equip, and activate individuals to strengthen the moral foundations of American culture, and give aid to the church here and abroad in its task of fulfilling the Great Commission”. The truth of the matter is that the AFA wants to have its cake and eat it. They want to not be held to the same standards as other charities on the Connecticut charity list for their Connecticut State Employee Campaign for Charitable Giving. This is a list for charities that offer services to others. These organizations are not allows to discriminate on the basis of religion, sexuality, etc. The AFA is now being required to provide evidence that they meet the standards of the state’s charitable giving list. If AFA wants to keep its version of Christianity, no one is stopping them at all. They also have to bear the responsibility of believing what they do and no one has to approve of that at all.

        I’m still waiting for you to put up what you think is so very important about WLC’s argument, SC. Again, I don’t care about your links. I want to see what you find important, and you get to take responsibility for claim that it is valid.

        It is a shame that Christians have no idea where the most important event in their religion happened or that any of the essential events of the NT happened. It’s also a shame that the jews have no idea where the Ark of the Covenant is or have any evidence at all that the exodus happened or that there was any magical flood or some bizaare creation where stars are lights stuck on a ceiling and a god can’t quite figure out that animals aren’t going to be much as “helpmeets” for a being it just created. Again, you are welcome to post here the evidence that you claim to have.

      • “You have born false witness about other people, including the FFRF, SC. I’m glad you think it’s funny. You have done a world of good showing just how much you ignore your religion.”

        FFRF? The terrorists that must be locked up?

        “Where is the tomb, SC? For your religion to have any basis, where is the tomb that was supposedly emptied?”

        OOOHHH MYY LOOOOOOL, YOU’RE STILL ON ABOUT THAT

        As I explained in my last comment, this argument is clearly horrible. Not only is it horrible, but I do not think I have ever heard a worse historical argument against the historicity of the empty tomb in the history of my lifetime. It’s obvious nonsense, we have clear historical records telling us that there was an empty tomb. The funny thing is, even if we find the tomb, we’d have absolutely no idea that it was the actual tomb of Jesus. Jesus’ tomb doesn’t say “THIS IS WHERE JESUS CHRIST WAS LAID AFTER BEING CRUCIFIED”, it’s just a tomb. We may have already found it but it would be irrelevant because it would be IMPOSSIBLE to know if Jesus’ actual tomb. We’ve found over 100 tombs from that time period from a people named ‘Jesus’ because that was one of the most common names
        of the time. This is indeed the worst objection to the historicity of the empty tomb ever recorded in history. I think it’s so bad that I might write a blog on it, LOL.

        “Where is any evidence that any of the essential events of the bible happened?”

        This is an easy one. 50 historical figures of the Bible confirmed: {link removed. Commenter has been requested to post evidence and not links. No one has to do his work for him}
        “Where is this “historical verification of the empty tomb”? No one knows where it is, Paul never mentions it.”

        Paul doesn’t mention it? Paul definitely implies it in 1 Corinthians 15:4 where he says regarding Jesus “that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day” — Paul tells us He was buried, and then that he was “raised” from the burial — which would necessarily imply the leaving behind of an empty tomb. Have you ever read Paul’s letters?

        “Habermas collected information only about a possible historical Jesus, one that isn’t even the one you claim to worship. ”

        What is this utter garbage? Habermas’ published research on the trends of New Testament scholarship across 1,400 papers in multiple languages from 1975-2005 show that a very strong majority of historians and scholars accept that there was in fact an empty tomb. There are multiple lines of evidence both showing and establishing this. If you actually looked at the peer-reviewed literature that is, LOL. In fact, I recall sending you Craig’s paper on this. So there is clearly no excuse here.

        You go on to do something quite funny — completely lie about me claiming there is no debate on Habermas’ claims of the empty tomb, show that there is actual debate and that it isn’t 100% unanimous, and based on your initial lie — conclude that I am the liar. LOL. This is hilarious. As we’ve seen, the very strong majority of historians accept the historicity of the empty tomb.

        “I’m still waiting for you to put up what you think is so very important about WLC’s argument, SC. Again, I don’t care about your links. I want to see what you find important, and you get to take responsibility for claim that it is valid. ”

        Are you a troll? LOL! I’m obviously not summing up an entire paper. You said “Craig can’t prove the tomb” — I showed otherwise. You made a positive claim regarding Craig’s position, and in three seconds, it immediately turns out you’ve lied about Craig and have actually never engaged with his arguments at all. Thus, any claim by you that Craig “didn’t do” something when it’s clearly in his peer-reviewed record is to be ignored unless you can address his record.

        “You certainly seem to have time to tell a lot false things, SC, so why stop with the AFA?”

        What have I spoken falsely about the AFA? Nothing, of course — we’ve seen that there is a Christian charity organization that, because they disagreed with homosexual marriage, were being attacked. This is all a fact and of course the AFA has never harassed any homosexuals or anything of the sort, all claims otherwise are clear garbage.

        Link of Craig at Oxford: {link removed. Commenter has been requested to post evidence and not links. No one has to do his work for him}

        The events being organized by Christians is irrelevant because he still spoke at these universities and of course engaged with professors at these universities like Yale. Thus, we can see your scribbling excuse immediately falter and explode. We’ve seen all your arguments yet again fail, we’ve seen you invoking hundreds upon quadrillions of fallacies and strawmans, clear misrepresentations of Craig, my own arguments, and the data, upon many other things.

        “It is a shame that Christians have no idea where the most important event in their religion happened or that any of the essential events of the NT happened.”

        huh? You mean Jerusalem? You go on to reiterate the “no evidence for the exodus” nonsense even though you’ve been given clear references to actually see some of the evidence provided on this issue.

      • please do show this, SC: “Habermas’ published research on the trends of New Testament scholarship across 1,400 papers in multiple languages from 1975-2005 show that a very strong majority of historians and scholars accept that there was in fact an empty tomb.”
        I have linked to his study and strangely enough, it doesn’t say this at all.

      • “please do show this, SC: “Habermas’ published research on the trends of New Testament scholarship across 1,400 papers in multiple languages from 1975-2005 show that a very strong majority of historians and scholars accept that there was in fact an empty tomb.”
        I have linked to his study and strangely enough, it doesn’t say this at all.”

        LOL YOUR LINK SAYS THAT:
        http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles/J_Study_Historical_Jesus_3-2_2005/J_Study_Historical_Jesus_3-2_2005.htm

        On the top, it says ‘Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus’. If you search up the title of the paper ‘Resurrection Research from 1975 to the Present: What are Critical Scholars Saying?’ — you’ll see that it has been cited 19 times.

        “please do show where the tomb is in Jerusalem and that the cruxifiction and its attendant events, walking dead, major earthquake, darkening of the sun happened. Starting with a date would be great.”

        As I’ve explained, asking for the tomb is the dumbest thing ever. Not only is the probability of us finding the tomb pretty much 0, but EVEN IF WE FOUND IT, WE WOULD HAVE NO IDEA.

        Listen, we’ve already found about 100 tombs from a guy named ‘Jesus’ in ancient Israel. ‘Jesus’ was the 6th most common name at the time. So we might have already found the frigging tomb, but we’d have no idea. The tomb doesn’t have “JESUS SON OF GOD BURIED BY JOSEPH OF ARIMATHEA” on it. So imagine this hypothetical scenario: I’m actually Joseph of Arimathea. I’m still alive after 2,000 years somehow, and I take you to Israel, and tell you “chadenfreude, this is where I buried Jesus”…. How would you know the tomb is legit? It would be impossible, because there would be no signs to confirm this. It’s impossible.

        You go on to ask for the “crucifixion and its attendant events”. You ask for the earthquake first. Your brain is about to blow up.

        Stratigraphy has already confirmed that a major 6.3 magnitude earthquake happened sometime in Israel between 26-36 AD, perfectly paralleling the date in which Jesus would be crucified (33 AD) and matching the type of destruction recorded in the Bible.
        http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2149750/Jesus-died-Friday-April-3-33AD-claim-researchers-tie-earthquake-data-gospels-date.html

        http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00206814.2011.639996

        The darkness as well gets even crazier. An early historian from 52 AD named Thallus not only records the darkness over the land, but is a HOSTILE WITNESS to the darkness, as he tries to explain it away as an eclipse. The writings of Thallus predate the gospels, and so that’s even more insane. We have an account of the darkness that not only predates the gospels, but is written by a HISTORIAN as a HOSTILE WITNESS to the event. This is overwhelming historical confirmation for the Bible and the Gospel accounts — the crucifixion of Jesus was coincided by an earthquake and darkness over the land. This is basically a miracle in and of itself.

      • Nice attempt, SC, but where is the evidence supporting your claim that the majority of the people in Habermas’ study support the claim of an empty tomb. Certainly you can cut and paste that since I’ve given you the link to the work. That his work has been cited 19 times shows what, SC?

        You have certainly tried to make an excuse that asking for the tomb is supposedly “stupid”. Alas, it isn’t and for all of the whining that some Christians make that we can’t find the tombs of other historical people being somehow evidence that their magic men exist is hilarious. Again, I agree, if you did find it, you would have no idea and this is why there is no reason to believe it ever existed, and to not believe WLC’s claim that Paul visited this tomb and somehow knew that it was empty because of magic. Thank you for underlining why one should doubt the bible, WLC and your own claims about Paul.

        As I’ve pointed out in my prior post, the book of Acts shows that your claims and WLCs claims are not to be considered true since it says that the claims of the gospels aren’t true and that those who cruxified JC buried him. Joseph of Arimathea doesn’t even show up.

        Thank you for article about the earthquake; I’m happy to let those links stand since they show how incorrect your claims are. So we have a 6.3 earthquake happening at some point during a 10 year period that might include the date that some Christians think that JC died. There is also the claim that this earthquake “matches” the destruction recorded. The destruction recorded is that a curtain in the temple tore, a curtain that took tens of men to lift per Jewish claims. That’s all that is claimed as destruction and three of out the 4 gospels don’t mention an earthquake at all. It seems that many, if not most, biblical scholars find the tearing curtain to be symbolic and that is all.

        The abstract for the article says this “Plausible candidates include the earthquake reported in the Gospel of Matthew, an earthquake that occurred sometime before or after the crucifixion and was in effect ‘borrowed’ by the author of the Gospel of Matthew, and a local earthquake between 26 and 36 AD that was sufficiently energetic to deform the sediments at Ein Gedi but not energetic enough to produce a still extant and extra-biblical historical record. If the last possibility is true, this would mean that the report of an earthquake in the Gospel of Matthew is a type of allegory.” Not exactly the claim you’ve made, SC.

        The article in the Guardian also has claims that the four gospels agree that the cruxifiction happened during Pilate’s rule. It also claims that Tacitus agrees, which is false, since Tacitus is reporting 83 years after the supposed events and is only reporting what Christians claim. The date claimed, April 3, 33 CE, is disputed by other Christians and scholars who claim April 7, 30 CE. You may want to look at the wiki entry on the various claims of dates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus#Chronology This shows that there are theological differences in what sabbath was meant and what the term “day” means in context, with the problem with the “three days” claim. It also points out that the gospels differ on the times of what happened when between the gospels. As many Christians do, I’m going to guess you’ll claim that the details aren’t important, just like you have claimed about the tomb. The Jews also did not note that the curtain tore, which would have gotten their notice since it is agreed that the curtain is likely the one in front of the “holy of holies”. They do report strange things like the doors of the temple opening of their own accord.

        John doesn’t mention an earthquake or the curtain tearing. Mark doesn’t notice an earthquake but does note the curtain teraring. Luke doesn’t notice an earthquake but also notes the curtain tears. Matthew is the only one who mentions an earthquake and he also claims that the dead were walking around Jerusalem chatting up people. Funny how that is missed by the Jews and everyone else.

        John doesn’t notice it getting dark at noon, and one would wonder why the author who really likes to go on about how JC is god, would forget to mention such a dramatic effect. Luke , Matthew and Mark do note it and have it lasting around 3 hours. The historian Thallus is claimed to have remarked on a darkeness over the land reported at some time that scholars do not agree on, and he was reporting 20 years after the supposed events; we do not have his original writings and this is reported by Julius Africanus. There were no total eclipses over the eastern med at any time claimed for the supposed crucifiction and more importantly, eclipses can’t happen during Passovers since they are on full moons. So, your claims that Thallus was a “witness” is nonsense. A later Christian commentor, Syncellus, in the 9th century CE wants to claim it wasn’t an eclipse but magic. List of eclipses their dates and locations of totality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_eclipses_in_the_1st_century

        So again, your attempts fail, SC. You do seem to either not bother reading your own links or hope no one else does because they don’t say what you claim. I know it is tempting to believe other Christians but they do not tell you the truth, and when you repeat their nonsense, you aren’t telling the truth either.

      • “Nice attempt, SC, but where is the evidence supporting your claim that the majority of the people in Habermas’ study support the claim of an empty tomb. Certainly you can cut and paste that since I’ve given you the link to the work. That his work has been cited 19 times shows what, SC?”

        LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

        This must surely be embarrassing for you, now that you’re trying to throw out every futile attempt to combat the fact. Habermas published his findings in the research trends of New Testament scholarship — and the paper specifically states 75% of published scholars support the empty tomb.

        “You have certainly tried to make an excuse that asking for the tomb is supposedly “stupid”. Alas, it isn’t and for all of the whining that some Christians make that we can’t find the tombs of other historical people being somehow evidence that their magic men exist is hilarious. Again, I agree, if you did find it, you would have no idea and this is why there is no reason to believe it ever existed, and to not believe WLC’s claim that Paul visited this tomb and somehow knew that it was empty because of magic. ”

        The Strawmans are FLYING. LOL. We it existed because of our early attestation to it in the early creed in 1 Corinthians 15, the Pauline epistles, and the Gospel accounts. Even the earliest dissidents of Christianity acknowledged the empty tomb, as shown in the Gospel accounts. There’s a lot more in Craig’s paper, but these are some of the evidences that establish its historicity, and are in fact acknowledged by critical historians. You’re limping to find an excuse.

        “As I’ve pointed out in my prior post, the book of Acts shows that your claims and WLCs claims are not to be considered true since it says that the claims of the gospels aren’t true and that those who cruxified JC buried him. Joseph of Arimathea doesn’t even show up. ”

        This is obviously ridiculous, what is this argument? “Acts doesn’t mention the tomb, therefore it doesn’t exist” — nonsense argument, non-sequitur fallacy, something no historian has ever taken seriously, dismissed.

        “three of out the 4 gospels don’t mention an earthquake at all.”

        That is correct — but that’s not what’s relevant. Matthew mentions it, and we have direct scientific validation of this report in Matthew’s Gospel. This shows he wasn’t making it up. It parallels the date where historians place the crucifixion at and it is extraordinarily large — 6.3 magnitude. You asked me to show the earthquake is legit. There you go.

        “The article in the Guardian also has claims that the four gospels agree that the cruxifiction happened during Pilate’s rule. It also claims that Tacitus agrees, which is false, since Tacitus is reporting 83 years after the supposed events and is only reporting what Christians claim. ”

        There is no evidence that Tacitus is regurgitating Christian information. Historians find this claim obvious garbage, as Tacitus almost certainly would have gotten his information from somewhere else. Tacitus called Christianity a “superstitition”, and so to assume Tacitus ended up deciding to go to the very same Christians he despised for his historical information is laughable. Tacitus writing 83 years later is also irrelevant, as Tacitus writes about events as early as 17 AD and it is considered reliable. The media link is correct, please get your historical information from historians, not mythicists. Mythicism is the most laughable thing ever, LOL.

        ” It also points out that the gospels differ on the times of what happened when between the gospels.”

        This is false. You yet again fail to exercise proper research and continue regurgitating the same spouted nonsense as every other mythicist troll. The Bible nor the Gospels make any claim whatsoever on the year of the crucifixion — the dates of 30/33 AD are scholarly estimates.

        “Matthew is the only one who mentions an earthquake and he also claims that the dead were walking around Jerusalem chatting up people. Funny how that is missed by the Jews and everyone else. ”

        Not reporting =/= Not noticing

        ^The above fact also applies to the darkness thing. There’s obviously no problem with the fact that some Gospels don’t mention some of the events.

        “So, your claims that Thallus was a “witness” is nonsense. A later Christian commentor, Syncellus, in the 9th century CE wants to claim it wasn’t an eclipse but magic. ”

        What nonsense are you spouting now? Syncellus was merely quoting Africanus who was trying to refute Thallus’ claim that the darkness occurred as a result of an eclipse. This is very basic — Thallus is an early hostile witness to the darkness before the Gospels were penned. Your “argument” in response makes no sense and rebuts nothing.

        “SC, you have claimed that people who don’t agree with you are terrorists. You have claimed that you would do violence to them.”

        Two lies.

        “Paul never mentions an empty tomb. I do need to clarify this as I mean a singular tomb, since Paul says was buried and not how. As you say, one might interpret it that Paul implies it but Paul never says anything about events of the empty tomb and what supposedly happened; he goes from burial and was raised but nothing if it was bodily or not (see 1 Corinthians 15:45)and this was a contention in early Christianity”

        It’s been a long time since I’ve heard the pseudo interpretation of Paul’s letters that somehow try to make out some “spiritual resurrection” — the quote you reference doesn’t at all support you.

        1 Corinthians 15:21: For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.

        The Greek word ‘resurrection’ is ‘Anastasias’, which specifically entails the meaning of a rising of the physical body.
        http://biblehub.com/greek/386.htm

        ^that link above takes you to Strong’s Concordance dictionary of Biblical Greek/Hebrew, and is always used in the physical sense of course. It seems to me as a number of Scholars agree that the phrase “that he was buried and that he was raised” SPECIFICALLY IMPLIES an empty tomb. One does not need an explicit reference to establish the meaning of a text.

      • ” and the paper specifically states 75% of published scholars support the empty tomb.”

        A quote please from the paper demonstrating this. If it is true, then it would be no problem for you to post it and I will be happy to admit that I am wrong.

      • “A quote please from the paper demonstrating this. If it is true, then it would be no problem for you to post it and I will be happy to admit that I am wrong. ”

        100000000% sure.

        1st, here is the link to the paper again: http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles/J_Study_Historical_Jesus_3-2_2005/J_Study_Historical_Jesus_3-2_2005.htm

        Under the subtitle ‘Some specific research trends’ in the fourth paragraph, the following quote is given:

        “Of these scholars, approximately 75% favor one or more of these arguments for the empty tomb, while approximately 25% think that one or more arguments oppose it. Thus, while far from being unanimously held by critical scholars, it may surprise some that those who embrace the empty tomb as a historical fact still comprise a fairly strong majority.”

        You are encouraged to read the context of the quote and confirm it for yourself.

      • Sigh. Here we go again. Again, what does WLC’s work being cited 19 times show, SC? Thanks for putting up the quote I asked for about the 75%. We have 75% of the scholars who wrote approximately 1400 publications believe one or more of the arguments for an empty tomb. I was wrong and apologize. I now know you can so if you choose. I’m still waiting for much evidence that you have claimed to have. One thing I do find interesting, Habermas claims, most of these scholars would likely be Christian, but unfortunately we can’t know how many since Habermas does not give a list of these scholars as far as I have been able to determine. (I just emailed him to see if he would supply this information, his email address being present on Liberty University’s website) If a quarter of these do not accept an empty tomb, do you consider them Christian, SC?

        A strawman argument, since you don’t see to know, is one that, in a debate, one side makes up something that the other side never indicated, and then attacks that invented subject. This is usually done since the inventing side is unable to assail what actually has been said. There is no evidence an “empty tomb” as claimed by Chrisitians, including WLC, existed, no more than Zeus’ birthplace on Crete, and a lot of people claimed that existed too. Or how about the space alien ship that was supposedly behind Comet Hale-Bopp. People thought that existed, had no evidence, and they killed themselves over a mistaken belief. Belief by people does not mean that something exists, SC. If you wish to argue this, then most, if not all, religions and their claims are as valid as yours, they believe it and write about it: poof! It exists.

        Oh, please do quote these “earliest dissidents of Christianity” when they acknowledge the empty tomb, SC. I am waiting with bated breath. Till waiting for those arguments you find believable in WLC’s nonsense to be posted here. Also who are these “Critical historians”? Answers to these questions would go far in showing you have any idea of what you are talking about, but as usual, you won’t provide them.

        It’s great when you claim an argument is supposedly “ridiculous”. It’s hilarious that now you want to claim that since Acts doesn’t mention a tomb, the Romans and/or Jews couldn’t have possibly buried JC, and you try to claim that Paul must mean a there was a tomb and Joe of Arimathea simply must have burned him in it, despite no mention of either by Paul. Sometimes, SC, I think you just have to be a troll out to make some Christians look so terribly ill-educated.

        It is very relevant that 3 out of 4 gospels don’t mention the earthquake at all, when you try to claim that an earthquake that happened within 10 years of the disputed cruxifiction dates is evidence for your claims. Sorry, SC, no cake and eating it too. Matthew also mentions that dead people got out of their tombs and walked around, hanging out in Jerusalem. The earthquake is dated to within 10 years, no idea on what year out of that ten and no idea what day, that is not “parallel” at all, and again funny how Christians themselves don’t agree on when the cruxifiction happened. That’s the problem with trying to fit reality with myth that isn’t agreed on. You also show that you haven’t a clue about earthquakes. A 6.3 earthquake isn’t “extraordinarily large” at all. Earthquakes in the range of 6-6.9 are considered strong and about 134 of them happen a year in fault zones. The secret to earthquake magnitudes is that it’s logarithmic, going up ten times in strength over the prior number e.g. a 5 is 10 times stronger than a 4, a 6 is 100 times stronger than a 4. You have yet to show the earthquake happened on any of the times that Christians disagree on when it comes to the cruxifiction, so, no, SC, it is not “legit” as evidence for your claims. An earthquake certainly did happen, not when you claim it did.

        I do love you claiming all sorts of things about historians but again having no evidence of them saying what you want. Where is this “somewhere else” that Tacitus would have gotten his information from, SC, regarding the cruxifiction? You tried another strawman, tsk. I did not say that Tacitus went to any Christians. I said that he is reporting what Christians claim, and considering how Christians like to proselytize, that isn’t hard information to get. Tacitus is not considered reliant for his claims to 17 AD, unless there are other lines of evidence supporting his claims. You see, SC, Tacitus reported many things, including that Emperor Vespasian healed a blind man with his spit (Histories, Book 4, chapters 80-86). Now, do you want to believe that is true too and just as true as his claims about Christians? Some historians are mythcists, again no problem in getting information from them per your own argument.

        Ah, always good to see a Christian spout the word “proper” which, in context”, means research that agrees with me and only me. And your problems with reading comprehension raise their head again, the gospels differ between them on the order of events in the cruxifiction. And you are correct, the bible doesn’t make claims about dates for any of its essential events; any claim of dates come from apologists who are desperate to have evidence for their myths, and who try their darnedest to fit the myth to the event by cherry picking.

        You wish to claim that not reporting doesn’t mean not noticing. So, SC, what would make someone not report something that supports their story that their supposed messiah was really divine? Please expand on why this would happen. And why would no one else in the area report on what should have been a strong earthquake happening on the same day that the sky darkened and the dead walked out of their graves? It’s rather like saying that no one would have bother reporting that the WTC fell on 9/11/01. And that no one across the Hudson noticed either. Like the exodus story, these would be far-ranging events if they happened, and surprise, no one noticed when they happened or if they happened.

        We have a mention of Thallus and some scraps of his writings, but we do not have his writings to see what he said in context. Some Christians themselves try to claim that the darkening of the sky was an eclipse, but they are generally ignorant in astronomy and don’t know that even the ancients could predict eclipses and we can run the clock backward and see where they would be for any year. They also don’t know that a solar eclipse cannot happen at the time of a full moon, something that even Syncellus knew. None of the various years claimed by Christians have a total eclipse happening in the eastern Mediterranean. Thallus reports a darkening of the sky, but there is no evidence he was a witness. His date is also disputed on when this supposedly happened and again, apologists try to make a round peg fit into a square hole because they are desperate for evidence for their claims. A good article about this is in the Journal of Greco-Roman Chrisitanity and Judaism, an peer-reviewed publication from McMaster Divinity College.

        Let’s see about this claim of yours about what I said: ““SC, you have claimed that people who don’t agree with you are terrorists. You have claimed that you would do violence to them.” (the people being the Freedom from Religion Foundation)– my words and then your response:
        “Two lies.” – https://clubschadenfreude.com/2016/09/20/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-a-response-to-dale-re-prayer-and-free-will/#comment-10391
        Happily, I have exactly what you’ve said before:

        “I’m also very sad to hear you read from the Freedom from Religion foundation, a terrorist organization that sues children schools because they allow the kids, if they want to, to gather up for a Bible class after the day is over. Freedom from Religion foundation is something I’d happily destroy with a bat.” – https://clubschadenfreude.com/2016/09/20/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-a-response-to-dale-re-prayer-and-free-will/#comment-10283

        “Definitely terrorists that should have their organization destroyed — these people sue any organization that so much as conceives of having groups devoted to their own religion or anything religious whatsoever.” – https://clubschadenfreude.com/2016/09/20/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-a-response-to-dale-re-prayer-and-free-will/#comment-10314 On Christmas Day no less!

        “By the way, the FFRF are in fact terrorists — their terrorist organization should be shut down and destroyed. They sue schools for having after-school Bible clubs where anyone is free to participate, they sue hotels for leaving a Bible in their drawers, etc, etc, etc.” – https://clubschadenfreude.com/2016/09/20/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-a-response-to-dale-re-prayer-and-free-will/#comment-10336

        And here is where poor ol’ SC now tries to walk back his histrionics: “I obviously didn’t mean they bomb people — but I call them terrorists because their insane people who constantly persecute institutions for even THINKING about allowing Christian to practice their faith. Complete garbage.” – https://clubschadenfreude.com/2016/09/20/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-a-response-to-dale-re-prayer-and-free-will/#comment-10349

        Now, who is lying, SC? Is it so important to lie that you would ignore your own religion?

        As usual, it’s fun to watch a Christian insist that other Christian interpretations are wrong and that only his is right, all with no evidence at all. And the quote does support me. Now, we can look at your link http://biblehub.com/greek/386.htm and one part of it does say that the word anastasias can be for a physical resurrection, they claim it is the only thing it can stand for, but, unfortunately for you, the rest of the page doesn’t say this or support it and neither do other concordances and Christian history itself. This limited definition, made without any evidence, is based on an assumption that it must mean this because some Christians think this happened. The word was interpreted differently by other sects of Christians, including Arian Christians, and again, your version has no evidence that it and only it is correct. You of course can show evidence that you are the only correct version. I would say that demonstrating that you have the abilities promised to a baptized person who claims Jesus Christ as savior would be a good way (that’s in the last chapter of Mark, btw). If you can’t, then there is little reason to believe your claims above any other Christian’s.

      • “Sigh. Here we go again. Again, what does WLC’s work being cited 19 times show, SC? ”

        That paper was published by Habermas, not WLC. I only mentioned the citations thing to show you it was an actual published paper, as you originally asked me how I knew this was published.

        ” I’m still waiting for much evidence that you have claimed to have.”

        What haven’t I gave a link/argument for yet?

        ” One thing I do find interesting, Habermas claims, most of these scholars would likely be Christian, but unfortunately we can’t know how many since Habermas does not give a list of these scholars as far as I have been able to determine. (I just emailed him to see if he would supply this information, his email address being present on Liberty University’s website) If a quarter of these do not accept an empty tomb, do you consider them Christian, SC? ”

        The majority of Scholars think the empty tomb is valid, and the majority of Scholars think Mark 16:9-20 is a later addition. There is no bias here, the scholars — whether Christian or not, are objective, and published material is especially objective of course. As far as I’m concerned, somewhere over half of the Scholars (55%?) are Christian. At least from what I’ve seen.

        “It’s hilarious that now you want to claim that since Acts doesn’t mention a tomb, the Romans and/or Jews couldn’t have possibly buried JC, and you try to claim that Paul must mean a there was a tomb and Joe of Arimathea simply must have burned him in it, despite no mention of either by Paul. Sometimes, SC, I think you just have to be a troll out to make some Christians look so terribly ill-educated. ”

        1. It is funny you try to make anything out of Acts not mentioning the tomb, because Luke wrote both the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts — these two books have the same author, and the Gospel of Luke most definitely mentions an empty tomb. So the author of Luke-Acts MOST DEFINITELY mentioned an empty tomb.
        2. Impossible for Jesus to get buried? That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence
        3. 1 Corinthians 15:4 does in fact imply an empty tomb

        “Matthew also mentions that dead people got out of their tombs and walked around, hanging out in Jerusalem. The earthquake is dated to within 10 years, no idea on what year out of that ten and no idea what day, that is not “parallel” at all, and again funny how Christians themselves don’t agree on when the cruxifiction happened.”

        This is false, Christians don’t have a “disagreement” on the date of the death of Jesus, because the date is not a Christian claim at all. It is a historical one. There are two different known dates that fit the Biblical chronology, and so it really could be either one. There is in fact a parallel with the earthquake — when you have a text in history dating to, say 4990 BC, and it tells us a massive earthquake happened, and then stratigraphy confirms that a major earthquake occurred some 5000 – 4980 BC in the same area, you can be historically pretty dang sure it’s the same one — the two accounts form of a historical parallel, they confirm each other. This is how historical studies work.

        “You also show that you haven’t a clue about earthquakes. A 6.3 earthquake isn’t “extraordinarily large” at all. ”

        Define ‘extraordinarily’ — a 6.3 is pretty big and more then enough to cause the destruction recorded in the Bible. A few months ago a 6.6 quake hit Italy and it killed hundreds of people and caused great destruction, even though buildings nowadays are much more powerful than they used to be, and there is a lot higher chance to survive. 6.3 is pretty big by any reasonable standard.

        “Where is this “somewhere else” that Tacitus would have gotten his information from, SC, regarding the cruxifiction? ”

        Ugh… Where did Tacitus get the source for ANY of his information he wrote? This objection is crazy. Tacitus obviously didn’t get his information from Christians, as he is very aggressive towards Christianity in his descriptions. Anyways, Tacitus was a member of the Quindecimviri sacris faciundis, which was a body of priests in charge of supervising foreign religions in Rome, meaning it is very very reasonable to believe Tacitus had access to a body knowledge from this membership on Christianity. I know of no historian who positvely thinks Tacitus received his information from Christians out of all people. Bart Ehrman says “Tacitus’s report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius’s reign.”

        ..

        “Like the exodus story, these would be far-ranging events if they happened, and surprise, no one noticed when they happened or if they happened. ”

        This is almost too funny a claim. No one noticed the exodus? LOL. Considering we lost 99% of all manuscripts from ancient Egypt and we have fully lost 100% of all ancient manuscripts from the Sinai (the region of the Exodus), how exactly did you figure that out? This is bare assertion fallacy that needn’t be taken seriously.

      • Ah, I was mistaken. So, what does Habermas’ work being cited 19 times show, SC? I know it was a published paper, and citations don’t mean anything if the papers citing it are nonsense.
        Again, SC, I am still waiting for you to cite evidence for many things, such as evidence for your god’s existence, evidence for the empty tomb, evidence for the exodus, etc. As we’ve been over, your links are worthless, unless you tell what is on them and cite it. No one is doing your work for you and you can’t just throw shit on a wall and hope that some of it sticks.

        I’ve had a chance to correspond with Dr. Habermas and he was very gracious to respond to my emails. His answer to my question of how many scholars he reviewed is interesting. He says he doesn’t know, but he thinks 1250-1300. This is a very unusual statement, in that someone who makes the claim that scholars accept the empty tomb argument, doesn’t know how many this would actually be from his own research. His response to a request for a list of the publications is even more curious, that a list of 1400 would take up 400 pages. That seems very strange, unless he is using a very big font. Here is what he said verbatim, both posts:

        “Of the 1400 publications, I don’t have a count on how many different scholars that there are among them, but I would think that 1250 or 1300 would be pretty close. GRH”

        And

        “Though I have never published the entire list (literally 400 pages long!), I have published relevant portions, one of which is the empty tomb section. You can go to my “articles” tab on the left side of my website (www.garyhabermas.com) and check out the articles published in the Journal for the Study for the Study of the Historical Jesus (the one you mentioned), Dialog, etc., and check out the notes in each essay. Also, I have attached a succinct chapter from my book, “The Risen Jesus and Future Hope.” It is a defense of the resurrection and the endnotes list dozens of the sources that you are asking about. I hope that is all helpful.GRH “

        If you’d like to see that first chapter, let me know. It is very odd that someone would not know the number of the scholars that they claim 75% agree with the empty tomb theory. Consider this, Habermas himself has published around 100 articles on this and similar subjects per his bio page at Liberty University. This mean that the number of authors could be as little as 14 or as many as 1400. It certainly makes a difference in what number that 75% consists of.

        Your concern means little, SC. We have an unknown list of supposed scholars from Habermas. You make unfounded assumptions that these scholars are Christian or are not, and if they are biased or not. There is nothing to show yet that their published works are objective or not. I do agree that most New Testament scholars are quite sure that Mark 19:6:20 is a forgery. How does that work with a holy book that supposedly was written/inspired by an omnipotent, omniscient god, that claims that any false additions to it will result in being afflicted with boils? And why do plenty of Christians believe that those verses are true and make claims based on them? However, the claims at the end of Mark aren’t any different than the claims of JC or Paul and Christians still should evince some special abilities per the bible’s claims. At the least, a baptized, believing Christian’s life should be demonstrably better since that is what the bible promises, where you would be taken care of better than the lilies of the field and the birds of the air in this life right now.

        The author of Luke and Acts is indeed supposedly the same person from the evidence. However, the story in Acts contradicts the story in Luke. As much as you may try to ignore the verses, they don’t vanish, SC. The empty tomb was mentioned in Luke as such “On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. 2 They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. 5 In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6 He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7 ‘The Son of Man must be delivered over to the hands of sinners, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ” 8 Then they remembered his words.”

        This story also disagrees with the stories of the cruxfiction in the other gospels. In John 20, the women do not go into the tomb, they apparently assume that the body has been removed since the stone covering the entrance was moved. The entry is claimed for the mysterious beloved disciple and Peter. After the guys leave, Mary then sees the two angels in the tomb and then meets JC who she doesn’t recognize and is forbidden to touch him. Matthew has the women visit the tomb and there being a violent earthquake at that time. There is one angel, and the women never enter the tomb to see it empty. JC then meets them, they recognize him with no problem and touch him. Mark has the women concerned with who will move the stone, they see one man, not an angel, and never enter the tomb, nor do they tell anyone about what they saw. As you pointed out, the gospel ends with them never telling anyone, the verses 9-20 are forgeries.

        The empty tomb was not mentioned at all in Acts. This is what was said in Acts and again, Christians did not agree that it was a physical resurrection and this was a one of the major divides in early Christianity “Acts 13:27 The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 28 Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29 When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb. 30 But God raised him from the dead, 31 and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.” No empty tomb mentioned at all, only a burial and a claim of “raising”.

        Hey, you can quote Chris Hitchens! It points out nicely that you have yet to provide evidence for your claim that only your version of Christianity is true, so it can be happily ignored. 1 Corinthians does not imply an empty tomb and, as I have pointed out, Christians do not agree on this.

        Unfortunately for you, SC, my point about the dead getting out of their tombs in Matthew, the earthquake being dated to within 10 years of disputed dates (by Christians) of the cruxifiction, isn’t false at all. Christians do dispute the date of the cruxifiction, some claiming 30 CE, some claiming 33 CE. The claims are indeed Christian, (http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1985/JASA3-85Humphreys.html The American Science Affiliation is a Christian organization and their tag line is “A Network of Christians in the Science”. http://www.bethlehemstar.com/the-day-of-the-cross/dating-the-crucifixion/ more Christians) made in the attempt to validate their myths as historical occurences. Being a historical claim in no way means it was not made by Christians. Again, Christians present their dates as being the truth, so your rather pathetic insistence that “so it really could be either one” is pretty darn funny. There is no parallel to what historians do. You have already pointed out that there is no date mentioned in the bible and we know that the dates claimed by Christians vary. If there is a date mentioned in an ancient document of an earthquake, that is a place to start, and if there is earthquake that is within a decade, then the problem becomes: was the document mistaken in the date? Is the discovered earthquake strong enough to fulfill the claims? Was the claim of an earthquake simply false? No, one cannot be “historically pretty dang sure it’s the same one”, as above, there are plenty of reasons question the claim and no, that is not how historical studies work. The folks in the article started with a presupposition, that an earthquake happened during the cruxifiction (something not even agreed on by the authors of the gospels), and then decided that any earthquake within a decade “must” be the evidence that the cruxifiction actually happened. (( Now, one can constrast this with a legendary event, the supposed sighting of a cross in the sky by Constantine 1 at the battle of the Milvian Bridge, and a hypothesis that what he really saw was a meteor impact which caused the Sirente crater (or it may have simply been a sundog). We have a date, we have a claimed event, and then people look for a possible cause. If no evidence is found, then there is little reason to accept the claim; if there is some evidence found but is only datable to within a decade of the supposed event, it may have been the cause or may not have been.

        And we get to see you now try to now claim that a 6.3 is “pretty big”, rather than “extraordinarily large”, and you expect me to define extraordinary when you used the term. Extraordinary: exceptional to a very marked extent. In that 130+ 6.0-6.9 earthquakes happen every year on average, there is nothing extraordinary about a 6.3 earthquake in a fault zone. There was a 6.3 earthquake in 1927 in central Israel. It did do damage similar to the one in Italy. So we have a baseline to look for, and we don’t find it for the supposed events claimed by one gospel.

        You are quite correct, there was a 6.6 in Italy and it did kill a lot of people and knocked over a lot of stone buildings etc. If my calculations are correct, it would have been 3 times more powerful than a 6.3 We have evidence for it happening. Now where is the evidence for this one happening during the cruxifiction, and why did 3 out of the 4 gospel writers not mention it? There should be many buildings collapsed, many dead and the only thing mentioned in the bible is a torn curtain. The people described to be at the cruxifiction site sit and gamble, look on, etc, but don’t notice this supposed event all around them. For more information on magnitudes, their perceived effects and average number per years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richter_magnitude_scale#Richter_magnitudes Here’s the bit about earthquakes in the 6.0 – 6.9 range.
        6.0–6.9 Strong VII to X Damage to a moderate number of well-built structures in populated areas. Earthquake-resistant structures survive with slight to moderate damage. Poorly designed structures receive moderate to severe damage. Felt in wider areas; up to hundreds of miles/kilometers from the epicenter. Strong to violent shaking in epicentral area. 100 to 150 per year

        How do *you* know what you’ve claimed about Tacitus, SC? As you’ve pointed out yourself, we don’t know where Tacitus got his information, so your claim about historians “I know of no historian who positvely thinks Tacitus received his information from Christians out of all people.” Is a contradiction. You’ve claimed what Tacitus said about JC was true but you have no idea. Again, Tacitus didn’t need to get his information from Christians, it could be simply hearsay. And, as you have indicated since he was part of a priesthood that watched over foreign religions, who do you think he may have talked to in that job? Could it be followers of those religions since they were right there and could be required to speak to these priests? Ehrman believes in a historical Jesus but not the one you worship, SC. There is no evidence of this cruxifiction but there are indeed other sources for the same story, which again are largely quoted by historians quoting Christians, not Roman records.

        I’m still waiting for evidence for the Exodus, SC. No, no one noticed that a million people were wandering around an area of land the size of half of Pennsylvania for 40 years. You are quite welcome to put up evidence that they did. We have indeed lost a lot of manuscripts, but that is not all the evidence one would find. Where are the middens full of quail bones, SC? Where are the middens full of human feces from a million people wandering around? Where is one artifact of Israelite make? It is claimed that these Israelites lived in Kadesh Barnea for part of the time (38 years) and why is there nothing about them there (https://thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com/2016/06/26/kadesh-barnea-gaza-the-exodus/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadesh_(Israel) ? Why has nothing been found for the last 2000+ years when the faithful have been looking desperately? You have repeatedly claimed to have evidence. Where is it? And the lack of evidence is taken quite seriously, SC, even jewish religious leaders admit the story is nonsense.

      • “Ah, I was mistaken. So, what does Habermas’ work being cited 19 times show, SC?”

        1. It’s a paper
        2. Academics consider the statistics trustworthy

        “Again, SC, I am still waiting for you to cite evidence for many things, such as evidence for your god’s existence, evidence for the empty tomb, evidence for the exodus, etc. As we’ve been over, your links are worthless, unless you tell what is on them and cite it.”

        I’ve already told you to of the artifacts that are discussed in the exodus link, being the Merneptah Stele and Amarna Tablets — you responded by saying you had no idea how they connect to the exodus, even though the explanation is RIGHT THERE on the link. I’ve already shown there is no excuse here.

        We’ve also been over the empty tomb as well — the evidence for it includes the very early creed in 1 Corinthians 15 dating to within five years of the death of Jesus, we have the Gospel accounts that record this which have shown their reliability such as accurately depicting the earthquake and darkness, as well as being known to be ancient biographies, etc, etc, etc.

        “1 Corinthians does not imply an empty tomb ”

        Ooops, bare assertion fallacy.

        Regarding the evidence, you say something that reflects your unimaginably bad knowledge of ancient history, archaeology, and general biology:

        “Where are the middens full of human feces from a million people wandering around? ”

        Good me, can you show me ANY feces that have lasted for over 3,000 years? Ever heard of decomposition? The mere fact you are seriously saying this is just too sad.

        “If you’d like to see that first chapter, let me know. It is very odd that someone would not know the number of the scholars that they claim 75% agree with the empty tomb theory. ”

        It seems that what he did was count the overall # of publications, but of course some people have published more than one paper on the issue, which means the overall number of authors is less than the # of publications (as he was measuring the # of publications). To me, this doesn’t seem problematic as he still estimates over 1,200 authors, which is still an extraordinarily large survey amount on a single topic (empty tomb). By the way, thanks for posting his e-mails.

        1,400 papers lasting 400 pages… That’s 3.5 papers per page. I don’t know how that font is going, but all I can assume is that he has written a short blurb describing each papers content or something. Or maybe he has a ton of other detail such as analyzing the numbers and other stuff, etc. I don’t think Gary is lying.

        Regarding Acts not mentioning the tomb even though Luke does (the same guy who wrote both documents, making the lack of mention in Acts irrelevant):

        “This story also disagrees with the stories of the cruxfiction in the other gospels. In John 20, the women do not go into the tomb, they apparently assume that the body has been removed since the stone covering the entrance was moved. ”

        So it seems you have moved away from your initial objection and are trying to play the contradiction game here. You say in John 20 the women simply see the tomb is removed and leave, but in Luke 24 they actually enter the tomb, a contradiction! But this is not a contradiction, as Luke 24 simply does not mention the part where she enters, that’s all. We can see that you’re trying to play an argument from silence, but academics know exactly just how weak arguments from silence are. We can see many times when comparing the Gospels in the same events, where one Gospel omits one of the extra details and simply does not write it. For example, when Jesus is carrying the cross, one Gospel has Jesus say things while He carries it but the other has Him silent while He carries the cross. A contradiction? No, one of the Gospels simply did not include the extra details (talking). That is all, no contradiction here.

        ” There is nothing to show yet that their published works are objective or not. I do agree that most New Testament scholars are quite sure that Mark 19:6:20 is a forgery. How does that work with a holy book that supposedly was written/inspired by an omnipotent, omniscient god, that claims that any false additions to it will result in being afflicted with boils?”

        I personally do not accept Mark 16:9-20 being an addition, however I’ve seen that some believe that Mark 16:9-20, although not written by Mark was still inspired. But I do not accept the claim they are an addition.

        ” Again, Christians present their dates as being the truth, so your rather pathetic insistence that “so it really could be either one” is pretty darn funny. There is no parallel to what historians do. You have already pointed out that there is no date mentioned in the bible and we know that the dates claimed by Christians vary.”

        This objection has yet to be relevant in any form. The people dating the crucifixion are not Christians, they are historians — Christian and non-Christian alike. In other words, this is simply a date variance like many events of ancient history have. Some Scholars believe that the writings of Papias go to 100 AD, some believe they got to 125 AD. Does that incite a contradiction? An error??? No, of course not, it’s a scholarly disagreement, as scholars from all fields disagree on everything. It’s very rare to have an exact date from something that happened thousands of years ago, at best we can have a pretty good idea.

      • Hmmm, it’s interesting that you don’t address that Tacitus also claimed miracles for Vespasian, and per your argument, one should believe this from Tacitus just like the claims about Christians. No other mentions of these miracles? Why we simply must have lost the other records!

        You are very correct, it is indeed a paper and however a citation does not indicate that the author things that the stats are trustworthy *or* true. It merely means that the paper was mentioned. This is the link that shows these 19 articles that Google found: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?biw=1391&bih=602&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.&bvm=bv.144224172,d.eWE&um=1&ie=UTF-8&lr&cites=1065437723770167569 I’ve looked at them and at least a third don’t accept the claims of Habermas as true, instead citing his paper as an opposing view. These papers often cite that the belief of the resurrection is a reality, but do not support the claim of an actual event.

        The Amarna tablets and the merneptah stele say nothing about the exodus, SC. The stele mentions Israel, it does not mention the exodus at all. What it does show is figures who are in Canaanite dress. If these are the Israelites mentioned, this depiction supports the current theory that the Israelites were Canaanites and were always in the area of Palestine. The tablets are correspondence between the government in ancient Egypt circa 13th century BCE and their bureaucrats in Palestine. They do not mention any of the events of the exodus. It mentions “habiru” or “hapiru” which is perhaps related to the term Hebrew but there is no consensus. They describe interactions with the Canaanite people. I wonder why you would make such false claims when it is so easy to disprove them. Your argument seems to be if a people is mentioned on a carving or on clay tablets, we should believe that their myths are true. If this is the case then we have to believe that the myths of the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Indus river civilizations, China, etc are all true too. I’m guessing you would not agree with this, and thus are simply trying to use special pleading for your religion.

        So, how is “1 corinthians does not imply an empty tomb”, and my explanation why, a bare assertion fallacy which is Fact 1: X claims statement A; Fact 2: X claims that X is not lying; Conclusion: Therefore, A is true”? You have yet to show how I am wrong, and I have shown that Christians disagree on whether the verse implies an empty tomb or not.

        I do love when you are too lazy to even look up something and can so easily be shown wrong. You ask to be shown where poop is found that is thousands of years old and claim I am ignorant of ancient history, archaeology and biology. Nice false statements, SC, and I am happy to show you the coprolites, ancient animal feces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprolite and paleofeces human and other hominids https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleofeces :

        “Much of the organic material in middens can be identified as human and animal coprolites. Faeces are rarely the first thing people think of as important archaeological finds, but they provide a key source of information about diet and health. The sheer volume of such material at Çatalhöyük and its excellent preservation, provides an important compliment to other indicators of diet, such as animal and plant remains. It can be difficult to decide what species coprolites belong to simply by looking at their morphology and contents, as some animals have similar diets to humans. Reliance on seeds and bone fragments alone cannot provide clarity here. Humans, however, produce specific types of sterols and bile acids in the gut that distinguish us from other omnivores, and chemical analysis of the coprolites allows us to detect this signature.” http://www.world-archaeology.com/features/turkey-neolithic-life-at-catalhoyuk.htm

        “These include materials with the oldest DNA evidence of human habitation in North America. The DNA, radiocarbon dated to 14,300 years ago, was found in fossilized human coprolites uncovered in the Paisley Five Mile Point Caves” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paisley_Caves

        You can see it gets quite old: http://www.envs.emory.edu/faculty/MARTIN/ichnology/Dinocopro.htm

        And yes, I’ll know you’ll claim these things don’t exist or try to claim some kind of creationist nonsense. Again, no evidence for your myths and no dates that Christians agree on for when such nonsense happened.

        So, your claims again are wrong. If there were middens from a million people wandering around in a land the size of half of Pennsylvania for 40 years, then there should be their dung and their waste, including the quail bones. And oh the quail bones there should be: Numbers 11 “Now a wind went out from the LORD and drove quail in from the sea. It scattered them up to two cubits deep all around the camp, as far as a day’s walk in any direction. 32 All that day and night and all the next day the people went out and gathered quail. No one gathered less than ten homers. Then they spread them out all around the camp. 33 But while the meat was still between their teeth and before it could be consumed, the anger of the LORD burned against the people, and he struck them with a severe plague.” (this story is also in Exodus 16)

        So we have an area of approximately 706 square miles (15 miles is about what a person can walk in a day) covered 6 feet deep in quail. And per the bible, every man gathered a little shy of 2 tons of the quail. This would be, if my calculations are correct, 960,000 tons of quail. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+11&version=NIV

        Yes, Habermas counted the number of publications and then has no idea of how many individual authors but tries to claim that 75% of them agree with the empty tomb claim. Again, this could be very few people or quite a few. He claims ignorance and cannot support his own claims and now seems to hide a claim of ignorance to give an actual number of how many people this is. He did clarify one thing he claimed regarding the 400 pages. He claims that this is the number of agreeing papers, not people, written since 1975 up until present. He does claim that some of them are annotated, but not all. “It was a list of 1400 sources when that article was written some ten years or so, but just the Bibliography alone is now about 3500 sources today. I have two assistants, too. At 10 entries per page (probably a little high), that’s 350 pages. But a couple hundred of my sources are annotated at approx. a paragraph per source, making approximately 400 pages total.”

        It doesn’t matter what you think, SC, your supposed expert cannot provide basic information on how many people agree with him. For a supposedly scholarly paper to lack the numbers of authors claimed to agree with the premise is simply silly when he tries to claim a percentage. There is no reason to omit that information and a very good reason to include it, to support that the empty tomb claim is supported by many individuals, the more the better. Citing the number of papers is meaningless, as indicated by the fact that Habermas has written many himself that repeat his claims. To not put the number authors and then citing a percentage is like saying that 75% of the children dose with penicillin had a reaction, and then not including how many children were in the study.

        The fact that Acts doesn’t mention the empty tomb and claims that the Romans/Jews buried Jesus is quite relevant to the point that the supposed same author made the claim that Joseph of Arimathea buried JC and that the women saw the body laid in the tomb. Then Luke proceeds to disagree with the other gospels on what happened next. It’s quite cute that you insist that it is irrelevant, but that doesn’t make it so. To say it is irrelevant is like saying that if an author wrote that Hiroshima was destroyed in a atomic blast on August 6, 1945 saying it was true and then wrote in another book that Hiroshima was destroyed by a giant monster on the same date saying it was true, the discrepancy is somehow “irrelevant”.

        Yep, the gospels contradict each other and I am not moving away from any other objection. Please do show where I am, SC, because if you can’t, then you are simply making false claims.

        You again try to claim that the gospels simply don’t mention the other actions by the women but that doesn’t work when they either can do one action or the other. One can’t enter the tomb and not enter the tomb. There cannot be two angels and also one angel at the same point in the story. It’s not hard to notice you try to ignore the other contradictions and only try to resolve the easiest one. Did the women meet Jesus and recognize him or not, SC? Were they allowed to touch him or not? How many angels were there? Or was it just a man? And who did carry the cross, Jesus or Simon of Cyrene? In Luke, Jesus talks but does not carry the cross; John has him carrying the cross and not saying a thing; Matthew has Simon carrying the cross, and no chatting; Mark has Simon carrying the cross and no chatting. Were there guards or not?

        So, since you don’t accept that Mark 16:9-20 is an addition, this means you think it is true, correct? And can you do what is promised? If so, then why aren’t you healing as many people as possible? I’d be more than happy to meet you at a children’s hospital or veteran’s hospital of your choice to witness you doing that. I’d even spring for a film crew. I do expect you to make excuses why you can’t.

        It’s great to see you outright lie, SC, when you say that Christians don’t claim the various dates for the cruxifiction, historians that you admit are Christians and make the claim as Christians because they assume the cruxifiction happened. My links don’t vanish if you disbelieve “real hard”. You also make a hilarious claim that this is simply a normal proposed historical date range, but it isn’t since specific day/month/year are claimed, one or the other, not a possible range between both. That isn’t claimed for Papias at all, so your analogy fails. I am glad to see your argument that we can’t know when the cruxifiction was contradicting what other Christians claim. It again shows that Christians do not agree.

        There is still no evidence for the empty tomb or the exodus.

      • “Hmmm, it’s interesting that you don’t address that Tacitus also claimed miracles for Vespasian, and per your argument, one should believe this from Tacitus just like the claims about Christians. No other mentions of these miracles? Why we simply must have lost the other records! ”

        LOL. There seems to be one explosive strawman going on here. My point was that the fact that we don’t have extra-Biblical records on some of these miracles is not only not surprising, it’s expected.

        “The Amarna tablets and the merneptah stele say nothing about the exodus, SC.”

        Blatant Strawman, I never said they “mention the exodus”. I needn’t at all reply to any of these ridiculous criticisms as I lay out the relevance of these artifacts in my actual post.

        “Your argument seems to be if a people is mentioned on a carving or on clay tablets, we should believe that their myths are true.”

        Another Strawman. This also reveals one of your underlying intents — even if I was miraculously able to show extra-Biblical documentation for literally all Biblical miracles (which is historically impossible for any religion, be it true or false), you would still reject them. Therefore, it seems that the Bible was correct when it said this:

        Luke 16:31: Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

        “You have yet to show how I am wrong”

        I don’t have to, because you blatantly asserted that 1 Corinthians 15 doesn’t imply an empty tomb, even after I laid out exactly how it does. You citing “different interpretations” is colossally irrelevant, as all interpretations are meaningless unless they are backed up by the text. It seems that the mere existence of interpretation is your scapegoat for denying facts. We’ve seen 1 Corinthians 15 imply the empty tomb.

        “If there were middens from a million people wandering around in a land the size of half of Pennsylvania for 40 years, then there should be their dung and their waste, including the quail bones.”

        The Biblical text is very evident that there were NOT millions of people, rather it was probably an overall population of 20,000-100,00 people in the exodus. (link was removed because commenter has been asked to show what evidence he feels important and to cut and paste the information as well as the link.)

        And about the feces thing — it seems you were right that they can be preserved for so long as with the evidence from Çatalhöyük. But it seems you have a gaping hole in your argument from this site. The link you gave me says the following:

        ” Equally importantly, the preservation conditions at the site are unprecedented, resulting in a wealth of artefacts and materials that can be investigated using cutting edge techniques.”

        This source describes the level of preservation as “unprecedented”, in other words, Çatalhöyük is one of the most well-preserved sites in the history of archaeology. Referencing Çatalhöyük as a standard for needing to find preserved feces everywhere else is thoroughly disingenuous, as of course preservation levels from most archaeological sites are amazingly scarce. There are of course some other examples of facts that make the reference to Çatalhöyük as an argument for expecting Israelite feces an utterly untenable position.

        For one, the link also says this:

        “The site covers more than 20ha, and was continuously occupied for at least 1,000 years from the early Neolithic through to the dawn of the Chalcolithic (or Copper Age), a period spanning approximately 7,400BC down to 6,000 BC”

        This site was continually occupied for over a THOUSAND years, in comparison to the Israelite camps which would have lasted four decades. In other words, the civilization at Çatalhöyük existed for countless centuries more than the forty year Hebrew camp, and thus there were centuries more time for feces to pile up from the civilization, piling up and piling up for hundreds upon hundreds of years. This would result in an explosively greater amount of overall feces at Çatalhöyük to be preserved than the Hebrew camp, meaning an extraordinarily higher probability of preservation.

        Another fact from your source:

        “The density of settlement has resulted in the site being styled as one of the earliest urban centres in the world (see CWA 8).”

        Again, Çatalhöyük seems to be a very dense, heavily populated urban region, in comparison with the Israelite camps which would have been very rural, verse sparse in population (as shown by my source above), and NOT urban at all — in fact, the Israelite’s would have been completely living in a semi-nomadic lifestyle.

        But there is probably one more explosive fact from both Çatalhöyük and the Hebrew nomadic camps which will utterly destroy this argument, and in fact show that any wish to find feces from the Israelite’s only exists in the imagination. One more quote from your source:

        “Each of these fine layers relates to a single activity, such as sweeping out hearth material, burning animal dung as fuel, or discarding broken basketry and matting.”

        We are told the people in Çatalhöyük would “burn dung as fuel”, in other words, the people in Çatalhöyük would intentionally store and utilize dung/feces, compact it, and thus would make the chance of having it remain greatly increase. That is one, and now two, look at this verse from Deuteronomy:

        Deuteronomy 23:12-13: You must have a place outside the camp and go there to relieve yourself. You must have a digging tool in your equipment; when you relieve yourself, dig a hole with it and cover up your excrement.

        The Israelite’s were SPECIFICALLY COMMANDED BY GOD to bury their dung, put it underground, and to do it OUTSIDE the camp/civlization. This makes it unmistakable that dung by the Israelite’s will never be found, whether they had ten million inhabitants or weren’t there at all, because it would have been buried in nature and immediately decompose thereafter.

        “And yes, I’ll know you’ll claim these things don’t exist or try to claim some kind of creationist nonsense.”

        Boy did you turn out wrong.

        Just to note — the Israelite’s did not CAMP A REGION THE SIZE OF PENNSYLVANIA. LOL. They were in a land the size of Pennsylvania perhaps, but their camps would have been quite small. Look at this picture of Tel Hazor for example:

        This was an ENTIRE ancient city, and yet so small. The population of a city like this or Jericho would have a population roughly equal to the Hebrew population in the exodus, and so the area we’re talking about where they is much, much smaller than you try to make it out. Furthermore, the Sinai has HARDLY been excavated at all, and therefore any crying about what HASN’T been found there when the vast, vast, vast majority of it (95%+ from what I’ve read) has not even been looked at is a failed argument.

        You go on to lie about saying that Acts contradicts Luke on the burial. You say that Acts says the Jews buried Jesus and Luke says it was Joseph of Arimathea buried Jesus, therefore there is a contradiction. Am I the only one who sees the insanity of this contradiction claim? JOSEPH OF ARIMATHEA WAS NOT ONLY A JEW, HE WAS PART OF THE SANHEDRIN LOL.

        Gary Habermas gave you a clear estimate that 1,250-1,350 different authors wrote the 1,400 papers, and because he has been through all the papers, his estimate is valid and well acceptable. But the funny thing is, even if we postulate an explosive exaggeration against Habermas and say that there were ONLY 900 authors, a full 350-450 less than the number he gives, this is still a representative sample of the views of the scholarly community and it does in fact show a majority on the side of the empty tomb historicity. I’ve read through MANY of the proponents who believe there was no empty tomb in the scholarly community, and not a SINGLE ONE claims that the majority are on their side, in fact I see them constantly admitting (like Bart Ehrman in his debate with WLC) that the majority regarding the empty tomb is NOT on their side, it is indeed on the side of the historicity of the empty tomb.

        “It’s great to see you outright lie, SC, when you say that Christians don’t claim the various dates for the cruxifiction, historians that you admit are Christians and make the claim as Christians because they assume the cruxifiction happened.”

        LMAO. They “assume” the crucifixion happened? The historicity of the crucifixion is universally recognized by all historians of Christians, Jews, atheists, agnostics, etc. There is as much doubt about the historicity of the crucifixion in a room of historians as there is in a Mormon Church on a Sunday Bible study. Atheists, Christians, and Jews look at the historical evidence on the crucifixion, and they do NOT DATE IT as Atheists, Christians and Jews — they date it as HISTORIANS, because the exact timeframe of when it happened is NOT a Christian claim, it is a SCHOLARLY claim.

        “That isn’t claimed for Papias at all, so your analogy fails.”

        What knowledge do you claim? I know of at least 5 different datings put on the writings of Papias that have support by academics, with the most significant ones being at 95-110 AD and the other being 125 AD, with the former becoming more popular in the scholarly community. The fact that there is virtually no set-in-stone date for thousands upon thousands of known historical events in the past should be enough to disintegrate your claims on this non-issue of 30 AD or 33 AD.

      • hilarious that you claimed I said that the Israelites camped in a area the size of half of PA, when they wandered around in it for 40 years per your bible.
        And it’s great to see Christians saying their bible is wrong as you do “The Biblical text is very evident that there were NOT millions of people, rather it was probably an overall population of 20,000-100,00 people in the exodus.”:

        Exodus 12: “37 The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Sukkoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. 38 Many other people went up with them, and also large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds. 39 With the dough the Israelites had brought from Egypt, they baked loaves of unleavened bread. The dough was without yeast because they had been driven out of Egypt and did not have time to prepare food for themselves.” – NIV

        and the KJV “37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle”

        If Christians doubt their own bible, why should anyone else consider it correct? Thank you so much for showing that even you say that the bible is wrong. I will happily replace your links if you post what you find important about it. You do need to explain why you take someone else’s word and not what the Bible says, if it is inspired by your god.

      • “hilarious that you claimed I said that the Israelites camped in a area the size of half of PA, when they wandered around in it for 40 years per your bible.”

        They did NOT SETTLE the entire Sinai region! LOL. The Bible clearly says hey were regions throughout the Sinai, but not the actual entire thing. That’s clearly not what the text says. At aaaaaaall.

        You challenge me on my claim that the Bible says there were NOT millions of Hebrews by posting this:

        “Exodus 12: “37 The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Sukkoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot”

        Read the link I gave, troll. The Hebrew word translated as “thousand” from 600 thousand has many other meanings, and the link I gave UNDOUBTEDLY establishes from overwhelming Biblical evidence that the translation you posted is almost certainly not correct and the Bible clearly says there were much less than millions. You are an obvious hypocrite — in your previous comment, you posted links for me to read on your dung preservation, and I read it, and yet you do not read the links I post. Indeed, to this moment you’ve only read a single one of the links I’ve shown (geocentricity link), and you were unable to respond to it and simply attempted to put away all the evidence there for Joshua’s day. Indeed, I read your sources and you almost never read mine, a clear double standard on your part and a contradiction to any scholarly approach to determining the truth. I will provide you another opportunity to read the evidence on the Israelite population:

        (the link has been removed sicne the commenter has been advised that he needs to show what is important about a link by posting the part he finds convincing. When this is done, the link will be returned.)

        We’ve also just seen that you were simply unable to respond to any other points of mine as I hammered out the remainder of your arguments. Again, before presuming I say the Bible is “wrong” (I had that exact verse you quoted in mind when you referenced the figure of ‘millions’), READ THE SOURCES LOL. This is why you continuously fail, you do not read my sources and then question me on things that are already answered in them, such as the relevance of the Merneptah Stele and Amarna Tablets to the exodus, the population of Israelite’s, etc, etc, etc.

      • again, you’ve been advised that you will post what you find valid in a link and not just post a link, SC. I removed your link until you comply. No one needs to do your work for you. Explain what is on the link and why you find it valid. This requires you to take responsibility for your claims.

        “They did NOT SETTLE the entire Sinai region! LOL. The Bible clearly says hey were regions throughout the Sinai, but not the actual entire thing. That’s clearly not what the text says. At aaaaaaall.”

        alas, SC, adding extra letters do nothing but make you look like you are whining. No one said that they settled the entire Sinai region. The bible does claim they wandered it and setteled in various places, all which have no evidence for a group of a million people, at any time period that Christians, and Jews, want to claim as the supposed date of the Exodus. When was that, SC? Why did no one notice this?

      • “again, you’ve been advised that you will post what you find valid in a link and not just post a link, SC. I removed your link until you comply. No one needs to do your work for you. Explain what is on the link and why you find it valid. This requires you to take responsibility for your claims.”

        AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

        Comply to your blog rules? This jokster cannot be serious. I don’t type responses in order to engage in some kind of format, I’m just trying to send you facts and explain to you why they are facts, be it through my own evidence or a pre-typed up evidence. Either way, you’d be reading the same amount of information, the only thing that’s on stake is , and I’m not wasting my time in typing up what has already been completely typed up.

        NOTE: I saw your third comment actually shows you read the link! This is amazing, I will address your response in the end of my comment.

        “alas, SC, adding extra letters do nothing but make you look like you are whining. No one said that they settled the entire Sinai region. The bible does claim they wandered it and setteled in various places, all which have no evidence for a group of a million people, at any time period that Christians, and Jews, want to claim as the supposed date of the Exodus. When was that, SC? Why did no one notice this? ”

        No one noticed it? LOOOOOOOOOOOL. How you know what people did/did not notice several thousand years ago from a period where virtually zero records exist (and that which does exist is generally religious inscriptions/political propaganda), and as shown by previous references, there were no million people. CORRECT, as you finally understand, the WANDERED THROUGHOUT the Sinai, they did not literally settle the entire thing, a land the size of Pennsylvania LOL.

        “It’s great to see you insist that translators that claim to be led by your god are wrong.”

        Whoops, non-argument. Appeal to authority fallacy.

        Anyways, back to you reading the link. This must be truly an accomplishment for you. I have nothing but respect for you putting past your phobia of links, so that you may engage in the truth. Not only that, but your response responded to point 9 and 10, meaning you had read through all the previous points. Here is where you did good and bad:

        I commend you for reading Exodus 15 and realizing it says nothing about midwives. I searched this up myself, and found that the passage James was trying to refer to is Exodus 1:15, not Exodus 15 — a likely typo on James’ part. Considering you read through the first 8 points but responded to none of them… Why is that? Most of them are a complete conundrum for a large Israelite population, such as point 3 regarding Numbers 3:43.

        The plain translation of elef is indeed thousand, but Hebrew scholars well understand that that the contextual passage of certain phrases can draw different translations of a general world. David J. Zucker says the following in his book The Torah: An Introduction for Christians and Jews:

        “The Hebrew word used for thousand is elef. This word, in some contexts, can mean thousand, but likewise it might mean “contingent” or “clan.” Indeed, sometimes elef can mean contingent, clan, or thousand.”

        He goes on to explain reasons for assuming that the text implies a non-thousand translation. Your very link to Strong’s Concordance under NASB Translations has ‘families’, ‘divisions’, and ‘clans’ as potential translations on the bottom of the extensive list.

      • oh poor fellow, you’re cackling again and that seems to prevent you from actually providing evidence. You have yet to send any facts and you are the same sad little Christian who came here to tell me I was wrong and has proceded to show the world (or the few who read my blog) that Christians are quite inept.

        Ah, again trying ot take cover under the idea that many people miss millions of outsiders wandering around in their area. That is not the way to bet, SC, but again, your ignorance of history is rather amazing so there is no surprise that you would make such claims. Again, hilarious to watch you hide behind someone who has said that the bible is wrong, a book supposedly written/inspired by your god and then translated by Christians also inspired. Thanks for showing again how Christians create their religion in their own image. I find it hilarious that you would claim I am using an appeal to authority fallacy when Christians claim that their translators are ever so good. So, SC, do you read ancient Greek? Ancient Hebrew? Aramaic? Or, as is very much more likely, what authorities to do you appeal to?

        I did read the link and I did read the link to the geocentric website, you know the one you lied about when you claim it didn’t mention the amazingly stupid idea of genocentricity? And I mentioned the specific myths they refered to, which is rather hard if I haven’t read the website as you falsely claim.

        I’ve long ago read Habermas’ claims and again, funny how those 19 citation didn’t do what you said, confirming that Habermas’ data was true. So, again, your lies don’t work very well when you make such claims that I am not aware of such idiotic websites. And yes, James is an idiot on his website. As I’ve mentioned before, most of his argument is that the parts he doesn’t like aren’t translated correctly, but the parts he likes are. Amazing he has such a magic decoder ring, to tell him when a translator screws up, being ignorant in ancient languages himself. Exodus 1 does indeed mention two midwives, at least one translation does (NIV), funny how the others say that there was many more midwives and only one was named Shiphra and Pu’ah. The AKJV ays this, the KJV says this, the NASB, the YLT, etc. Which bible you favor, SC? Why does the bible say you are wrong again? Again, no evidence that eleph stands for what you claim. You have a quote from a book, and again you make claims that are not shown. How does Zucker explain why one shouldn’t believe other translators? I did find Zucker’s argument in another one of his books, that the bible is wrong and the thousands mentioned in other places were just exaggerated, and the Israelites were not telling the truth. So, we have a problem with either you believe the bible, or you think it was exaggerated. Of course, many theists will cherry pick, to invent the religion of their own selves.

        You’re right, the strongs does have what you said. I was mistaken. Let’s see what was translated and in what context:

        “NASB Translation
        1,000 (18), 1,000,000* (2), 1,005* (1), 1,017* (2), 1,052* (2), 1,100,000* (3), 1,200* (1), 1,222* (1), 1,247* (2), 1,254* (4), 1,290* (1), 1,335* (1), 1,365* (1), 1,400* (2), 1,700* (3), 1,760* (1), 1,775* (2), 10,000* (20), 100,000* (7), 108,100* (2), 12,000* (8), 120,000* (5), 14,000* (1), 14,700* (1), 15,000* (1), 151,450* (2), 153,600* (2), 157,600* (2), 16,000* (2), 16,750* (1), 17,200* (1), 18,000* (7), 180,000* (3), 185,000* (2), 186,400* (3), 2,000 (5), 2,056* (1), 2,067* (1), 2,172* (2), 2,200* (1), 2,300* (1), 2,322* (1), 2,400* (2), 2,600* (2), 2,630* (1), 2,700* (1), 2,750* (1), 2,812* (1), 2,818* (1), 20,000* (10), 20,200* (1), 20,800* (1), 200,000* (4), 22,000* (7), 22,034* (1), 22,200* (1), 22,273* (1), 22,600* (1), 23,000* (1), 24,000* (15), 25,000* (16), 25,100* (1), 250,000* (1), 26,000* (2), 27,000* (1), 28,600* (1), 280,000* (2), 3,000* (11), 3,023* (1), 3,200* (1), 3,300* (1), 3,600* (2), 3,630* (1), 3,700* (1), 3,930* (1), 30,000* (5), 30,500* (2), 300,000* (4), 307,500* (2), 32,000* (2), 32,200* (2), 32,500* (1), 337,500* (6), 35,400* (2), 36,000* (3), 37,000* (1), 38,000* (1), 4,000* (3), 4,500* (8), 4,600* (2), 40,000* (5), 40,500* (3), 400,000* (3), 41,500* (2), 42,000* (1), 42,360* (2), 43,730* (1), 44,760* (1), 45,400* (1), 45,600* (1), 45,650* (2), 46,500* (2), 470,000* (1), 5,000* (7), 5,400* (1), 50,000* (2), 50,070* (1), 500,000* (1), 52,700* (1), 53,400* (3), 54,400* (2), 57,400* (2), 59,300* (2), 6,000* (3), 6,200* (1), 6,720* (2), 6,800* (1), 60,000* (1), 60,500* (1), 600,000* (1), 601,730* (2), 603,550* (6), 61,000* (2), 62,700* (2), 64,300* (1), 64,400* (1), 675,000* (3), 7,000* (8), 7,100* (1), 7,337* (2), 7,500* (1), 7,700* (2), 70,000* (4), 72,000* (1), 74,600* (2), 75,000* (1), 76,500* (1), 8,580* (1), 8,600* (1), 80,000* (3), 800,000* (1), 87,000* (1), clan (1), clans (2), divisions (2), eleven* (3), families (2), family (1), million (1), thousand (78), thousand-fold* (1), thousands (41), thousandth (1).”

        this is the number of times a certain word was translated a certain way. Luckily, biblegateway.com has the NASB and one can search on the words. Funny how even the NASB uses thousands as exactly that in Numbers 11, no use of “clan”, “family”, “families”, at all. http://www.studybibleforum.com/htm_php.php3 Again, actual scholars show you to be wrong. I am quite happy to agree that there is little reason to trust translator in translating the bible. It does make it problematic for you.

      • any, thanks again for disagreeing with your bible and other Christians, SC. Sure does make a great argument that the “truth” claimed is anything but.

        “The Hebrew word translated as “thousand” from 600 thousand has many other meanings, and the link I gave UNDOUBTEDLY establishes from overwhelming Biblical evidence that the translation you posted is almost certainly not correct and the Bible clearly says there were much less than millions.”

        It’s great to see you insist that translators that claim to be led by your god are wrong.

      • From the website you linked to, owned by a fellow who has is degree in marketing and design and is taking courses in theology (these places are in South Africa).

        now let’s see what he says “James is a graduate from Vega School of Brand Leadership specialising in Multimedia Design and Brand Communications. He is currently enrolled at Cornerstone Institute studying Theology and majoring in Psychology. His theological interests encompass comparative religion and the links between science and religion”

        His claims are even more bizaare: like this one “In Exodus 15 we find just two Hebrew midwives catering for the entire fleeing Israelite population. If the population really was some two million then we’d expect there to be a few more midwives mentioned.”
        Exodus 15 is the song by Miriam and then it ends with this “22 Then Moses led Israel from the Red Sea and they went into the Desert of Shur. For three days they traveled in the desert without finding water. 23 When they came to Marah, they could not drink its water because it was bitter. (That is why the place is called Marah.[f]) 24 So the people grumbled against Moses, saying, “What are we to drink?”
        25 Then Moses cried out to the LORD, and the LORD showed him a piece of wood. He threw it into the water, and the water became fit to drink.
        There the LORD issued a ruling and instruction for them and put them to the test. 26 He said, “If you listen carefully to the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you.”
        27 Then they came to Elim, where there were twelve springs and seventy palm trees, and they camped there near the water.”

        No midwives mentioned at all. And here is the link right to Exodus 15. If James is figuring on being a theologian, he isn’t doing very well with getting the chapter wrong.

        And then he makes this claim “In Exodus 13:18 we read that “The Israelites went up out of Egypt armed for battle.” 600 000 Israelite men would have been an exceptional and incredibly powerful army, and perhaps quite unparalleled. Such a force would have outnumbered the Egyptian army itself. Granted this then why would the fleeing Israelites be “terrified”? After all, their own army outnumbered the Egyptian forces. Exodus 14:10 concedes that “They were terrified and cried out to the Lord” as the Egyptian army approached. Clearly the Israelites, and their few thousand fighting men, were expecting to be clobbered.”

        Wow, it’s great seeing James make claims left and right and having no support for them at all. It’s amazing on the claims that Christians make to try to make their religion work, even if it comes to saying that the bible is wrong. Indeed, this is so much fun, I’ll post your link myself: https://jamesbishopblog.wordpress.com/2014/12/31/was-it-really-2-million-israelites-that-left-egypt-during-the-exodus/

        No wonder you didn’t want to actually lay claim to these awful arguments. Oh and the word for “thousand”, elep, evidently has only one definition, per Strong’s Concordance: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/505.htm You might want to actually research what you are told by random websites. James has a long way to go and seems to have no problem in telling outright falsehoods.

      • As I indicated, the word used for a thousand in Hebrew doesn’t’ have many other meanings. You accepted the ignorant lies of someone else, SC. It took me two minutes of reading that silly page to find two inexcusable errors, and that’s not all I saw. James is quite incompetent, when the bulk of his argument is “I like this part so the translation is right; I don’t like that part so the translation is wrong”. It’s amazing how so many Christians cherry pick their bible and insist that the parts that they like are perfectly fine but the parts that are inconvenient well, those they must claim that the translator was wrong on. And speaking of hypocrisy….

        I am no hypocrite. I know that your links are garbage, having read enough Christian website with their baseless claims. This is why I generally require you to post what you think is valid from the site, not just the link since you are still trying to throw shit at the wall and hope someone thinks some of it sticks. I don’t much care if you read the links I give, the quotes from them or my posts, SC. This is not some tit for tat nonsense, where you feel you must have attention to the false claims Christians tell. There certainly isn’t a double standard since there is no comparison between ignorant Christians making baseless claims, being unable to even get a chapter correct, ignoring their own holy book and running away from questions; and facts, including the bible, which show that these Christians are wrong, with evidence that entirely different things happened rather than what is claimed in this bible. Any scholarly approach knows to not factor in lies and baseless claims. I do read such websites often just because they are such excellent examples of poor education and willful ignorance.

        You are also wrong, yet one more time, in that I’ve only read one link, when I’ve at least read two, but truthfulness has not been your forte. I even responded to that geocentricity link, with detailed commentary on the invidivual myths they mentioned. I wonder, did you ever read that site, because you would know that I addressed the site if you had actually read it. If, however, it’s like James’ site, you have no idea what is on it, and just hoped something would be found by someone else. I countered all of your supposed evidence re: Joshua’s sun, and have yet to see you offer the evidence for it. What date was it, SC? Why do some of the myths in the same part of the world have a long night, rather than a long day and when did those event occur so we know that the same event is being described? No real need to mention these questions again, you just ignore them.

        You’ve been shown to be an intentional liar, a coward when it comes to apologizing for these acts, a person who has attempted to spread false information, and, it seems recently, someone who is too lazy to read the links he posts. You are one of the finest examples of the Dunning-Kruger effect I’ve met. I do wonder: can you give me some reason to keep you around?

      • You also apparently have no idea what a strawman argument is. I’ve noted the tendency of ill-educated Christians repeating thing that they have heard but do not understand, evidently assuming that making false accusations but using important sounding terms makes them true. If you do not believe in the claims that Tacitus made about Vespasian, why believe similar claims about your supposed Messiah? You are correct, there are no extrabibilcal records for the bible’s miracles. There are mentions of Christians and their customs in documents written by ancient writers, and they do not support the claims of the bible, any more than the later writers who wrote about the contest at Athens for whom would name it are giving evidence for the existence of Athena and Poseidon. If people were being raised from the dead, either just one, Lazarus, or hundreds, one would think that someone would have noticed and written it down or the story at least spread. But nothing happened. Just like no one noticed the great flood, the fall of the Egyptian army, etc. All far reaching effects *if* they happened; they didn’t.

        You have presented the tables and the merneptah stele as evidence for exodus. We can see your own words right here “I’ve already told you to of the artifacts that are discussed in the exodus link, being the Merneptah Stele and Amarna Tablets — you responded by saying you had no idea how they connect to the exodus, even though the explanation is RIGHT THERE on the link. I’ve already shown there is no excuse here”. And here “This is why you continuously fail, you do not read my sources and then question me on things that are already answered in them, such as the relevance of the Merneptah Stele and Amarna Tablets to the exodus, the population of Israelite’s, etc, etc, etc.”

        Sigh. It’s like showing you when you lied before about terrorists and the FFRF. Being a coward you ran away from your lies.

        Again, no connection to the exodus no relevance at all only mentions of Israel and Israelites. You are trying to change your mind and then trying to claim that the strawman comes from me when that is not the case. Tsk, SC. And nice excuse for not giving evidence for your claims. You can’t show evidence for a single bible miracle, much less all, SC and I’d be quite content to see evidence for one. I have never once indicated that I would reject evidence. I’ve been asking for it for a month or two now. Still none given on your part. Nothing showing that the exodus happened. Nothing showing that an empty tomb existed. Your claim that I would reject evidence is just one excuse since you have none. I’ve been through this before with Christians, who will hide in a lie about what I would and would not accept, when they have nothing. Your argument has been: sincen the word Israel is mentioned on the stele or the tablets, this means that the Exodus is true. You have offered nothing else, so no strawman there at all, only what SC has claimed.

        The bible is no more correct about that quite from Luke than a broken clock is right twice a day. Since you have done a great job insisting that the words about Moses and the prophets are untrustworthy and simply must mean other words than what they say, you are quite a bit of evidence that claim is true. Unfortunately, a lot of people would be convinced if someone rose from the dead, if they only had evidence of it. But there is none, SC and the bible said that this story would convince so many, and it hasn’t. This is because there is no evidence and believers themselves do not agree on what supposedly happened, what this god really wants, what should one do to get saved, etc. Indeed, that quote from Luke evidently right from the get-go and no prediction at all. If you make claims and can’t come through, then why should anyone believe you? JC is notorious for not being able to do his supposed miracles in his hometown and had to sneak out.

        Ah, classic excuse when you have yet to show me I’m wrong. You claim “I don’t have to…” when that is what you’ve been desperately trying all along. So much for not having to, several thousand words later. Again, 1 Cor 15 doesn’t imply an empty tomb and early Christians knew this. You may try to ignore those Christians who disagree with you but that doesn’t’ make them go away.

        It’s absolutely hilarious for you to make the claim that “all interpretations are meaningless unless they are backed up by the text” which would make your interpretations just as meaningless since they no more are backed up by the text than those made by Christians who disagree with you. You certainly are wearing the juice. Still waiting for you to show your version of Christianity is the only correct one.

        I read your link about the claim that the bible somehow doesn’t say million people or 600,000 men plus their families. As I’ve already shown, that link is one sorry set of nonsense. And tsk, the world for thousand doesn’t have other definitions, per a well respected Christian source, Strong’s Concordance. We also have very ignorant fellow, James, making even more hilarious claims as I’ve pointed out. Poor James can’t even get the right chapter and verse for his peculiar claims about there only being two midwives with this mob. I am quite happy to see you so poorly attack your bible’s claims of the truth.

        Of course I was right about the feces thing. You were lazy and ignorant and didn’t do even basic research before lying, SC. There is no hole in the argument, but I’m sure you’re desperate for one since your claims have been shown as false. The preservation at a 9000 year old site is pretty amazing for that type of site, on in a fairly wet environment, and that has had 9000 years of civilizations built over them. Now, what do you think the preservation would be at a site of a third that age that, and that’s if any of the dates claimed for the exodus are true?

        Terribly curious that there is such a nice site as Catlhoyuk and no sign of the magic flood in the bible in sight.

        In the desert, with latrines dug carefully so this go doesn’t step in human dung and then recovered? If youll note, the preservation of both should be excellent. The problem for you is that archaeologists, despite centuries of searching, have found not one midden in any of the places that the Israelites were supposed to be, and certainly not from the numbers the bible, not you, claim. You make such hilarious attempts to declare Catalhoyuk as some extraspecial spot and it is not it. It is very good for Turkey and the Neolithic. Your desperation causes you to make false claims again, SC and that is no surprise. Your sad ignorance about what archaeology is and what archaeologist do makes your claims of “disingenuous” pretty funny when you have nothing to back up your claims with. Yep, the site was occupied for a long time with many layers and destruction of what is beneath. Which means that an undisturbed camp site would not be nearly as torn up and the middens would be intact. I’ve worked on archaeological sites where they were from Native Americans who live in a place for a few months and then leave. There are plenty of artifacts, from hard objects to the outlines of where their middens where, where any stakes were driven in, etc. The soil is an entirely different color in the new diggings.

        If a million people were traveling together, the camps would indeed be huge and that is exactly what your bible claims. There would be 83 tons of poop everyday, and that’s only taking 600,000 as the number of men claimed by the bible.

        It’s great that you read at least part of the article, but you of course didn’t’ actually read it all. Catalhoyuk is certainly considered an “urban centre” but only for the time, 9000 years ago. There is nothing to show it was very densely populated. You’ve added that all on your own in your ignorance and desperation. “At its peak 3500-8000 people lived, worked and died here.” http://www.catalhoyuk.com/site/rise_and_fall_of_a_neolithic_town Every one of your claims are again shown to be false and you have tried your best to pass them off as true. Why you think you have some right to lie to others in order to deny them the facts is amazing. But that’s all you have.

        As has already been shown, large camps are not very sparse and again, your bible says you are completely wrong when claim that it really doesn’t mention hundreds of thousands of people. Indeed, SC, it’s curious that you demand people believe you and not god.

        Oh no, one more promised explosion, when all of the others were duds. And here we got another fizzler. SC, do you even know what a latrine is? And let’s even say that each Israelite pooped in their own hole. We’d still have at the minimum of 86 tons of poop a day. And you do notice in your quote is that it was animal dung being burnt, not human and it is comparatively easy to tell the difference. The layers in the middens could be *down*to 1 mm thick, and only those layers relate to a single activity. The other layer were thicker and in chunks as one can see if one reads the article and doesn’t’ try to cherry pick it. “Much of the organic material in middens can be identified as human and animal coprolites. Faeces are rarely the first thing people think of as important archaeological finds, but they provide a key source of information about diet and health. The sheer volume of such material at Çatalhöyük and its excellent preservation, provides an important compliment to other indicators of diet, such as animal and plant remains. It can be difficult to decide what species coprolites belong to simply by looking at their morphology and contents, as some animals have similar diets to humans. Reliance on seeds and bone fragments alone cannot provide clarity here. Humans, however, produce specific types of sterols and bile acids in the gut that distinguish us from other omnivores, and chemical analysis of the coprolites allows us to detect this signature.” You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

        Again, SC, your ignorance about archaeology does you no good. Most if not all civilizations put their poo outside of their camp/residence. They may have burned animal poo (it has much undigested greenery to burn) but human poo doesn’t’ burn well and that is in the middens. There is nothing at all that says that such latrines and/or rings of poo would not be found. That they are found in other archaeological sites that are similar to what is claimed for the exodus means that there is no reason to expect to find them in the Sinai. And no surprise, they aren’t there since the exodus never occurred. No matter how hard you try to change what the bible says, it doesn’t work very well and shows just how Christians are happy to attack it when it is inconvenient. Poop doesn’t immediately compose in the desert. It’s not like taking a poo in some place that is wet with plenty of critters to break the stuff down.

        I was wrong thinking that you might use creationist nonsense. But you gave me even better nonsense, claims that were based on your ignorance. The bible says that the Israelites wandered all around the Sinai. Nice try to invent a strawman but alas, I never said that they camped and covered the Sinai. The Sinai has been excavated where the bible says the Israelites went. Surprise, those places are empty too.

        Could we find one huge latrine hidden behind some desolate erg someday? Yep. But the probability is unlikely since there is no other evidence for the exodus either. And then there is that problem with cities existing before any claims of a magic flood and not noticing such an event at all.

        That’s a fairly clever attempt at excusing the contradictory claims of Luke and Acts. The problem is that the gospels don’t agree on who Joseph was. Then we get into what exactly did Joseph do, since the gospels don’t agree on that either having him do what the women are claimed to do otherwise. However, I think the most important part is that Joseph would not be included in the terms used here. Acts 13 “Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29 When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb. since he either wasn’t a Sanhedrin or disagreed with them if he was.

        Many Christians try to claim this as fulfilling prophecy, from Isaiah 53:9, “He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.” but they always forget that “wicked” part, cherry picking again.

        Mr. Habermas gave me a guess, with no evidence to support it. He claims to have 400 pages and that would be about a 6 MB file. This is more than easily transferred and I could do the work. Again, there is no reason to think that the claim is right or wrong since Habermas, for some inexplicable reason, did not keep a count of authors so he could mention the actual number in a paper that makes that the centerstone to the argument. It would be a representative sample *if* the total number of authors were known. That’s how stats work, SC. Otherwise, it is a baseless claim. As I’ve also pointed out, the 19 references that you mentioned did not uniformly praise him or find the data believable. That the majority of Christian writers believe in an empty tomb is no surprise, is it, SC? There is again no evidence for the empty tomb, and the fact that some do believe in it is meaning less. It would be as meaningless to say that many Muslim scholars believe the divot on the temple mount is where Mohamed stepped, and that means we should accept that a magical event happened with no evidence.

        And before you caw again about how the majority is always right, you might want to reconsider that baseless statement.

        Again, no the historicity of the cruxifiction is not universally recognized by “all historians of Christians, Jews, atheists, agnostics, etc”. That’s quite an amazing lie and be found to be a lie here, and here. Many scholars may believe in a historical Jesus but that isn’t your Christ at all. That Christ has no evidence for its existence at all. And please do search all of the historical Jesus websites you can to get evidence for your version. You do get histrionic when you get cornered, don’t you? Christians have tried their best to date it and I cited two sources where Christians are saying that their favored of the two main ones are true. They date it as Christians and historians, historians who have an assumption that it happened. There is no evidence of any of the events of the cruxifiction, so they tried to find a day that would kind of work, one that was of a close date to a passover, but they had no idea what it was, that information being lost, the most important day for Christianity so far. Amazing how that happens to Christians and Jews: lose the commandments, lose the ark, lose that other ark, lose the tomb, etc. Then they have to find other things to get it to match up with the bible, depending on which version of the story they look at. Did an earthquake happen or not? Did it get dark? Did dead people wandering around Jerusalem?

        Many historians may agree that there could have been a cruxifiction of a wannabe messiah, but when they have no idea and they don’t believe in the magical events claimed for the bible cruxifiction. This certainly isn’t the messiah you worship. As for the date not being a Christian claim but scholarly claim, would you claim the same of the date given for creation? It was given by a pastor who claimed that the bible told him all that he needed, just like Christians with the cruxifiction.

        You claimed” Some Scholars believe that the writings of Papias go to 100 AD, some believe they got to 125 AD. Does that incite a contradiction? An error??? No, of course not, it’s a scholarly disagreement, as scholars from all fields disagree on everything. It’s very rare to have an exact date from something that happened thousands of years ago, at best we can have a pretty good idea.” about Papias. YOu seem to fail to get that writings are one thing, the claim of the origin of a religion is quite different, especially since one of the major holy days is claimed to be on the “right day”, when that isn’t remotely true. Easter changes date because Christians are desperate to hook it to Jewish holidays but have no idea when the supposed resurrection happened, so your analogy fails. There are quite a few dates for Papias and Christians and scholars debate about the “most significant”, depending on their desires. Christians claim that there is one special date, above all others, the triumph over death and their guarantee of getting their heaven, and funny, have no idea when it actually was. It has to be a certain date, SC, or then the rest of the story goes. If it wasn’t a certain date, then there is no reason to believe that any of it happened. Using Pontius Pilate means nothing becaucse there was not date and he could have been added as a known bad guy at any time. Being over a Passover means nothing, it could have been any date, they just added the time of Passover because it made a nifty parallel with the blood sacrifice, etc.

      • “If you do not believe in the claims that Tacitus made about Vespasian, why believe similar claims about your supposed Messiah?”

        Tacitus’ religion is not my own. Evidently ridiculous question. You also go on to claim there are no extrabiblical records on the Bible’s miracle claims, as well as lying and saying I shared this view. However, Josephus clearly notes that some people have believed Jesus to have done miracles and rise from the dead, Thallus tries to explain away the darkness, etc. I’m also wondering if you consider the apocrypha as “extra Biblical”.

        “There are mentions of Christians and their customs in documents written by ancient writers, and they do not support the claims of the bible, any more than the later writers who wrote about the contest at Athens for whom would name it are giving evidence for the existence of Athena and Poseidon.”

        These are further lies, we’ve seen support for Christian claims of history from numerous non-Christian writers, like Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny, etc, and early Christian writers as well, like Clement of Rome (70 AD), Ignatius (95-105 AD), Papias (95-110 AD), etc. Furthermore, there are the pre-Pauline creeds in Paul’s epistles which predate Paul by a long shot, such as the creed in 1 Corinthians 15, Romans 10:9, and several others. You go on to claim that “surely someone must have noticed the rising of people from the dead”, which is of course irrelevant because virtually nothing in ancient history has survived for us to know what the ancients ‘noticed’. Therefore, any whining about any lack of recordings is an explicit argument from silence fallacy and great showing of how ignorant one is regarding the documentation of early history. In the entire first century, there was a single Jewish historian that was interested in the Messiah claimants and supposed miracle workers of the day. Just one. And he was Josephus. And Josephus mentions Jesus and the supposed miracles he was believed to have done. Case closed.

        “Sigh. It’s like showing you when you lied before about terrorists and the FFRF. Being a coward you ran away from your lies. ”

        There are no lies, the FFRF is a terrorist organization. I have not “run away” from it, it was just buried in our discussion and now you re-open it and conclude I’ve lied. As I’ve explained, the relevance of the Merneptah Stele to the exodus is explained in the link, an inability to read the argument for how it connects to the exodus is a failure on your part of course, not my own.

        ” You can’t show evidence for a single bible miracle, much less all, SC and I’d be quite content to see evidence for one. ”

        We’ve already seen corroboration for an earthquake and darkness taking place during the exact time of Jesus’ crucifixion. I’d love to see how you explain the enormous coincidence that Jesus’ crucifixion was just coincidentally coincided by an enormous earthquake that probably killed thousands of people and a darkness over all the land. Just a coincidence, right? LOL. I would give you a link to the resurrection evidence as well, but you probably wont read it. I’ll take my chances though:
        ” the bible said that this story would convince so many, and it hasn’t.”

        It has. The enormous historical evidence for the resurrection has brought thousands upon thousands to Christianity. Paul was persecuting Christians, and then the risen Jesus appeared to him, making him convert at that moment. What would make an enemy of Christianity who had already killed several Christians suddenly emphatically join the most persecuted group in the Roman Empire, other than an appearance of the risen Jesus Himself? Paul’s conversion is clear historical evidence for the resurrection.

        “Terribly curious that there is such a nice site as Catlhoyuk and no sign of the magic flood in the bible in sight.”

        Magic flood? I wonder where you got the magic part, of course. However, the Biblical flood has already been historically confirmed to have happened for decades. (the link has been removed because the commenter has been informed that he must show what of use is there on the link and explain it. Poor SC hopes to throw shit at a wall and that someone will tell him some of it sticks. It’s also great fun to see him insist that he has the power here on the blog.)

        This Mediterannean wide local flood happened 7,500 years ago and 100% of all scientists who know anything about it admit it happened. It’s simply its connection with the Biblical flood that makes a secularist explode.

        As we’ve seen, your reference to Çatalhöyük is an utter failure, as it was specifically an urbanized, densely populated city with one of the highest preservation rates in all of archaeology, with a population that specifically used the dung for several purposes and thus themselves in their own time had preserved it for its function. Compare this to the Hebrews in the Sinai, a region that has undergone almost no excavation with a semi-nomadic sparse population that was specifically told to bury their dung. The difference is almost inconceivable.

        “There are quite a few dates for Papias and Christians and scholars debate about the “most significant”, depending on their desires.”

        Your little knowledge on anything to do with New Testament scholarship and ancient archaeology is amazing. The most popular dating for Papias so far is 125 AD with the view of 95-110 AD quickly becoming more popular in academia. The idea that I have “no idea” when the resurrection happened is laughable, because I know it happened between 30-33 AD, which is an amazingly small time frame to pinpoint an ancient event to.

        “As I indicated, the word used for a thousand in Hebrew doesn’t’ have many other meanings. ”

        As we’ve seen, your own Strong’s Concordance dictionary link actually mentions the translations of clan and family if you actually bothered to scroll down past the sparse summary, and James, an actual Scholar in the field corroborates this. You call James “incompetent” when of course it’s evidently the other way around, James is an actual scholar and he is absolutely correct. He commented on the different possible translations which are all valid. As we’ve seen, virtually ALL of the overwhelming Biblical evidence clearly tells us that the Bible records a small exodus population, not large one. You go on to call my blog “garbage” even though you have never clicked on it.

        “I did read the link and I did read the link to the geocentric website, you know the one you lied about when you claim it didn’t mention the amazingly stupid idea of genocentricity? ”

        You utter troll, I said the link I gave didn’t mention geocentricity — and you failed to reply to the overwhelming evidence for Joshua’s day. Your reference to other links in the website are utterly irrelevant, you’re like a child. “This site talks about geocentricity, therefore that gives me an excuse not to discuss the specific part of the site that you linked to by appealing to a part of it that is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion” — that’s you. Anyways, your comments are one enormous mess. You post three different replies to every comment I send, and you are simply incapable of replying to my arguments, one by one. Rather, you spur 100 different assertions at once and ignore all the corrections. It’s very hard to discuss something with someone who ignores all your debunkings, citations and makes the same hundred assertions per response, as well as the fact that they do not even reply to your arguments. Obviously, I cannot succintly discuss 100 different topics at once in a comment section of a blog, so this is how we’re going to proceed: We’ll discuss four different issues at once. Any four you choose in your next comment. All other topics will be ignored, and we will focus on four different topics. If you fail to choose those four topics in your next reply, I’ll do it for you. You can choose the dating of the crucifixion and how that is magically a problem, Joshua’s day, the extrabiblical corroboration of Biblical miracles, etc, etc, etc. But only four topics will be addressed at a time. Or, maybe you want to discuss and explain this following incoherent mess of yours: (the link has been removed because the commenter has been informed that he must show what of use is there on the link and explain it. Poor SC hopes to throw shit at a wall and that someone will tell him some of it sticks. It’s also great fun to see him insist that he has the power here on the blog.)

        “If it wasn’t a certain date, then there is no reason to believe that any of it happened.”

        This is too funny. May I inform you that you have literally destroyed everything we know about everything that has ever happened before 500 BC and much of what happened afterwords, as well as any and all science of anything that took place more than a thousand years ago (any meteorites or major events, volcanic eruptions, etc), as well as pretty much everything else? This is too laughable. Please go up to any historian that has ever lived, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, tell them what you just said to me, and try not to get laughed out of the Western hemisphere.

      • Poor SC, still having conniptions about how to figure out area. It’s sad really.

        Tacitus’ religion has nothing to do with what you chose to believe out of his writings and what you choose not to. The religion that is involved is yours. You are desperate for evidence for your nonsense so you run to Tacitus, but when the same author makes claims you don’t want to believe then you ignore them. Lovely cherry-picking, SC. No wonder you’ve glommed onto James who does the same thing as you.

        AS I have pointed out and demonstrated, there are no extra-biblical records on the bible’s miracles. You have admitted that there are no other records “My point was that the fact that we don’t have extra-Biblical records on some of these miracles is not only not surprising, it’s expected.” And indeed there is no evidence for any of them, not only “some”. You may want to try to remember what you have claimed. Josephus certainly does mention Christians who believe in things that are not supported by evidence. The existence of Christians is not evidence that the bible claims are true. If this is the case, that the existence of worshippers of a god mean that god exists, then you’ve just supported the claims of many other religions including your own. Tezcatlipoca is just as real as the Christian God.

        As for the apocrypha, they are as lacking in evidence for their claims as the stories in the bible. I do love how Christians can’t even agree on what stories are from their god. Thank you for mentioning them. If Christians don’t believe that they are true, why should I? For all claiming to have the truth, you folks certainly have lots of different versions of it.

        Nope, no lies at all, SC, but please do show where I have. If not, then we get to see just more bearing of false witness by a Christian who is ignoring his holy book. There are a lot of mentions of Christians in history. Again, the mention of a worshipper isn’t evidence that their religion is true. Humans are quite gullible, as you’ve demonstrated many times so far. Yep, pre-Pauline creeds, and still no evidence that any of these claims are true.

        Again, you try to take refuge in the false claim that “virtually nothing in ancient history has survived for us to know what the ancients noticed”. Yep, that is true and shows that there is no reason for anyone to believe that there was a magical cruxifiction at all, since we don’t have the original stories at all. Unsuprisingly, you again get a fallacy wrong. It’s wrong because there isn’t silence, but even other gospels who never mentioned such a magical event, no legends about it in Jewish literature, nothing, about what should have been the most astonishing event in history to that point. Josephus misses it but he mentions other things around the supposed time period, and as you say, he was quite interested so why he of all people missed this? And why is the only mention of JC’s miracles in the known forgery in Josephus?

        The early Christians never mention the rising of the dead, but they certain mention lots of other things about the cruxifiction. There is both negative evidence, that no one noticed and positive evidence, other things were mentioned that preclude the nonsense. I know how early history is documented and again, your gospels fail it quite nicely. The case is not closed, but again, you have to claim it so since no one else will.

        Amazing, you are still trying to claim that the FFRF is a “terrorist organization” and have yet to show this is the case at all. Do you pray for forgiveness every time you make a false claim, SC? I shows how you lied, SC, quoting you verbatim. Shall I do so again?

        “Let’s see about this claim of yours about what I said: ““SC, you have claimed that people who don’t agree with you are terrorists. You have claimed that you would do violence to them.” (the people being the Freedom from Religion Foundation)– my words and then your response:
        “Two lies.” – https://clubschadenfreude.com/2016/09/20/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-a-response-to-dale-re-prayer-and-free-will/#comment-10391
        Happily, I have exactly what you’ve said before:
        “I’m also very sad to hear you read from the Freedom from Religion foundation, a terrorist organization that sues children schools because they allow the kids, if they want to, to gather up for a Bible class after the day is over. Freedom from Religion foundation is something I’d happily destroy with a bat.” – https://clubschadenfreude.com/2016/09/20/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-a-response-to-dale-re-prayer-and-free-will/#comment-10283
        “Definitely terrorists that should have their organization destroyed — these people sue any organization that so much as conceives of having groups devoted to their own religion or anything religious whatsoever.” – https://clubschadenfreude.com/2016/09/20/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-a-response-to-dale-re-prayer-and-free-will/#comment-10314 On Christmas Day no less!
        “By the way, the FFRF are in fact terrorists — their terrorist organization should be shut down and destroyed. They sue schools for having after-school Bible clubs where anyone is free to participate, they sue hotels for leaving a Bible in their drawers, etc, etc, etc.” – https://clubschadenfreude.com/2016/09/20/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-a-response-to-dale-re-prayer-and-free-will/#comment-10336

        And here is where poor ol’ SC now tries to walk back his histrionics: “I obviously didn’t mean they bomb people — but I call them terrorists because their insane people who constantly persecute institutions for even THINKING about allowing Christian to practice their faith. Complete garbage.” – https://clubschadenfreude.com/2016/09/20/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-a-response-to-dale-re-prayer-and-free-will/#comment-10349

        There goes that recording media thing that always gets so many TrueChristians and politicians in trouble.

        The merneptah stele is not linked to the Exodus. It mentioned the term “Israel”, nothing more and Christians desperately try to argue that the mention means that the exodus had to have happened since Israel existed. It’s rather like watching some conspiracy theorist insisting that since dragons were written about, then dragons simply must have existed. Again, if you think there is more to it, please do provide it. I know there isn’t so you won’t. Neither do the Amarna tablets have anything to do with the exodus, only mentioning correspondence between Egypt and their people in Palestine.

        You still haven’t shown evidence for one bible miracle, much less all SC. Christians do not agree on when the crucifiction was, and the supposed earthquake was dated to within ten years of two of the dates offered for the cruxifiction. No evidence of any earthquake, darkening of the sky and walking dead on one day, and again, you can’t even figure out what day it was. There is no coincidence beause there is no evidence that the cruxfiction happened, nor that an earthquake happened on that day, whenever that day was. Where is the record of this earthquake “that probably killed thousands of people”? Rome wouldn’t have ignored that. Again, and still no evidence for a darkness of any kind “all over the land” on any date that Christians so desperately try to invent. Per your own gospels, people just hung around and gambled, noticing no earthquake. As for reading your links, you’ve posted enough garbage. IF you want your links to remain, you will explain what you think is valid, preferably post a part of it, and then you can have a link. No need to spread more Christian incompetence. James is pretty funny though. I’ve rarely seen such use of a magic decoder ring. He has to insist that the translators were wrong in the parts he doesn’t like and then he has to rely on those same translators for the parts he does like.

        There is no historical evidence for the resurrection. There are a lot of people who believe in it because they trusted the people telling them these stories and those people had trusted those before. And now more people believe in the story in the Qu’ran than in the bible, so does that make the Qu’ran more true? It does by your argument.

        Paul claimed that a risen JC appeared, but funny how Paul can’t keep his story straight and makes differing claims on what happened. Why would he convert? Because of a nifty promise, and being gullible, the same reasons people convert all of the time, and why people kill themselves over such stupidities, like Heaven’s Gate, The People’s Temple, the Muslims who blow themselves up, etc. Someone’s subjective claim is not historical evidence. If it were, then we have historical evidence for most if not all religions, and that would make them as valid as yours. Agree with that? I’m guessing not.

        I get “magic flood” because your myths say your god caused it by magic. Now here is a link of yours that can stay: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/evidence-for-a-flood-102813115/

        “The cores seemed to be telling a strange story indeed, particularly in the northern areas. At the very bottom of the cores, dozens of feet below the present seafloor, they found layered mud typical of river deltas.
        Carbon-dating of shells in this mud indicates that it was laid down between 18,000 and 8,600 years ago. This data showed that an area of the Black Sea about the size of Florida might have been much like the lower Mississippi Delta today — rich farmland with an abundant supply of fresh water.
        Directly above the layers of mud is a layer of what Pitman calls “shell hash” — an inch-thick layer of broken shells — overlain by several feet of fine sediment of the type being brought into the Black Sea by rivers today. The shells in the “hash” are typical of what was in the Black Sea when it was a body of fresh water. The fine sediments contain evidence of saltwater species previously unknown in the Black Sea. It is the interpretation of these layers that tells us what happened on that inevitable day when rising sea levels in the Mediterranean reached the base of the sediments at the bottom of the Bosporus — and all hell broke loose.”

        Now, the bible says, amoung other things, that the flood was world-wide, was caused by rain and the opening of springs in the earth, caused violent upheavals, and was taller than the tallest mountains. The article says that there was a break in a piece of land, and water flowed from one body of water, the Mediterranean into the Black Sea around 7,500 years ago. Christians (creation.com) say that it happened in 2403 BC. Hmmm, so the dates are off by around 3000 years. Tsk. The sediments also support the flooded basin theory, but not one big flood event all over the world. The magazine article shows that the bible is wrong in all of the details. Now, what should we think, SC? The two events are vastly different. IS the bible wrong again in getting the details correct? Are you going to cherry pick again?

        Catalhoyuk was not the urbanized dense population you claim. As the article said, there were perhaps at most 8,000 people living there. This is nothing like the claims of the exodus, and it is a shame that you would try to lie about something in your bible, SC. You keep trying to claim that it was some uber-site to give credence ot your claims and it is not. It is a good site, but not the perfect one you falsely claim. Yep, the people in Catalhoyuk did burn poop, animal, and their poop was in the middens, as the article indicated. Then we have the claims in the bible, where the Israelites were told to bury their feces in holes in a desert environment, an even better preserving ground. Again, SC, you are amazingly ignorant about archaeology, but that is no surprise. Per the bible, the book you claim is true, this was not a “semi-nomadic sparse population” but a population of more than 600,000 men plus their famiiles and livestock, who are claimed to have followed a known path, and that path has indeed been excavate for any evidence of these Israelites. You are now attempting rewrite your bible and to make false claims about the region. Like James, you insist that the bible is wrong in some spots that are inconvenient with reality, but then insist that this same bible is the truth in the parts you do like. It’s like watching creationists change their minds about evolution when they become laughingstocks and have to accept some of it to even stay slightly relevant. I am more than happy to see you insist that the bible is wrong.

        As I’ve demonstrated, I know quite a bit about new testament scholarship, and all you have been doing is insisting I do not, with no evidence to support your “nuh-uh” comments. You again, have no idea when the cruxifiction happened, SC. Which date was it? You can narrow it to within three years, and how have you done that, SC? Ah, yes, by the assumptions made by Christians on when it “must” have happened, depending on events that have no evidence supporting that they happened. Rather than hear a story and then following the evidence to see what actually happened, Christians try to claim what happened and then force the evidence to fit it. Historical research doesn’t work that way.

        James Bishop is not any kind of a scholar, SC. He is a marketing/design major starting a degree in theology. It’s hilarious that you thought you could get away with that one. As I pointed in the concordance, you are quite right, it does say the word eleph can mean clan, family, etc. Then that lovely bit that I cut and pasted shows how the word was translated in the NASB, and that depended on context. Funny how even the NASB’s translators took the bible at its word and have no problem with there being 600,000 men, plus familes and anmials. Again, it seems you are stuck claiming that translators are wrong and somehow you and James are right, whilst depending on those same translators to get it right in the parts of the bible you like.

        It’s amusing that when someone does point out that you have lied, you feel you must call them a troll. I suppose the truth must hurt, but it doesn’t change. You said that the *website* didn’t contain geocentric nonsense, and that was not the truth. Also, as I indicated, I addressed the specific myths mentioned on that website, so it’s rather hard for me to have not read it and to be able to directly reference to it. But please do keep trying to make false claims about me, SC; it harms no one but you.

        I have responded to your arguments, but it does not surprise me at all that you now want to whine about how I respond now, when you have no other excuses. It’s pretty much like clockwork how Christians like yourself will suddenly be offended by my style of response when it was of no consequence for months. It’s terribly convenient, isn’t it? You make a claim, I counter it. That is the very definitionof one by one. Where have I ignored your “debunkings”, SC? Or is it that I’ve torn them apart? And were are your citations? You’ve given a handful of links, links that you refuse to explain why you find them valid.

        No one is asking you to discuss a hundred topics, SC, so again, we have one more exaggeration invented to excuse your incompetence. No, we aren’t going to proceed the way a wannabee bully wants to. Sorry, dear, but I control the vertical and horizontal. I will discuss what I will and how I will on my blog. If you don’t like it, pick up your balls and go home. Hate to tell you, SC, but no one cares if you ignore anything.
        Still having reading comprehension difficulties, eh? It’s also nice to see that you did your very best in trying to make my quote seem meaningless by taking it out of context. Let’s put it back in:

        “Christians claim that there is one special date, above all others, the triumph over death and their guarantee of getting their heaven, and funny, have no idea when it actually was. It has to be a certain date, SC, or then the rest of the story goes. If it wasn’t a certain date, then there is no reason to believe that any of it happened. Using Pontius Pilate means nothing because there was no date and he could have been added as a known bad guy at any time. Being over a Passover means nothing, it could have been any date, they just added the time of Passover because it made a nifty parallel with the blood sacrifice, etc.”

        You have indicated the exact date isn’t important. If it is not, then the claims of Christians that there was an exact date where these events happened and that this is important are wrong and it makes the event meaningless, there is no before or after. The claims of Pilate, a real person being there, is just window dressing in a myth. The claims of this being on a Passover is just what was needed for the story.

        In historical research, a legend can be researched. The evidence is followed and a date may be arrived at, for instance the Black Sea flood as above. In theology, a date is arrived at by claiming a legend is real, and then the evidence is forced to fit it. So, no you may not inform me of something that is nonsense you’ve invented. Everything is still happy and healthy in the world of archaeology and I’m still quite happy here in the western hemisphere. It’s best not to assume imaginary people will do things that you say they will.

      • As I pointed out in my previous comments, your responses are so long and messy that I will only engage with four points at a time, and we can progressively debunk all your fictions. You seem to have an easier time keeping yourself from being destroyed when you just throw one hundred assertions per response, however this will be stopped at once. You refused to choose four topics, so I will just address the first four in your comment.

        1. Tacitus’ confirmation of Christian facts

        Here, we see you saying I cannot use the historical testimony of Tacitus because of Tacitus’ personal religious views. Apart from the entire argument being fallacious, it is irrelevant because I do not use the testimony of Tacitus to confirm any supernatural events in the Gospels — indeed, Tacitus does not even speak of the supernatural claims of Christianity. Tacitus confirms to us the following four facts from Christianity as an independent Roman source from the New Testament itself:

        1. Jesus founded Christianity
        2. Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate
        3. The events of Jesus’ ministry took place during the reign of Tiberius
        4. This person was called the Christ (Messiah)

        Tacitus is a historian who is simply speaking about the history of the origins of Christianity to Jesus, where he basically confirms to us that Jesus was the self-proclaimed Messiah who had founded Christianity and was crucified under Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. Because I do not use Tacitus for supernatural appeals, this argument from you is a disaster.

        2. Confirmation of supernatural Biblical miracles in extra-Biblical sources

        Aside from the many strawmen you throw at me, let’s address the reality. Josephus and Thallus are both extra-Biblical sources that confirm Biblical events. I also mentioned the apocrypha, but you rejected them because they “don’t contain evidence”, which is hilarious. What ‘evidence’ are you exactly looking for in the apocrypha? Are you looking for a works cited on the bottom of each apocrypha? LOL. As we can see from an indeed very plain look at our extra-Biblical sources, we do have many confirmations of Biblical miracles from extra-Biblical sources. I’m waiting for you to just admit it, and then say “but I don’t accept it anyways” so that we can move on, because it’s simply a fact that we have records of Christian miracles in extra-Biblical sources. This is simply a fact, I cannot even believe you’re still trying to dodge it. Another source I still haven’t mentioned is Clement of Rome, a Christian writer from 70 AD (very early, and a contemporary of the apostles) who also indeed records many Christian miracles. So the idea that extra-Biblical early sources, whether they are Christian or not do not corroborate Biblical miracles is ridiculous.

        3. This is where you basically say “it’s false because others don’t record all of it”. Basically, I’m going to quote you:

        “Again, you try to take refuge in the false claim that “virtually nothing in ancient history has survived for us to know what the ancients noticed”. Yep, that is true and shows that there is no reason for anyone to believe that there was a magical cruxifiction at all, since we don’t have the original stories at all. Unsuprisingly, you again get a fallacy wrong. It’s wrong because there isn’t silence, but even other gospels who never mentioned such a magical event, no legends about it in Jewish literature, nothing, about what should have been the most astonishing event in history to that point. ”

        You call this a false claim when it is obvious fact to any and all historians. Why the hell would a Jewish author mention Christian miracles (cough, not counting Josephus)? They wouldn’t, LOL. Out of all the miracle-workers in the first century, there’s only a single first century historian of Israel that had any interest in these miracle workers. A single one. If that’s not bad enough for you however, this single one was Josephus, and Josephus does indeed record these claims. So the only first century non-Christian historian in all of Israel who was interested in the miracle workers of the past is also the same one that mentions Jesus and His miracles. This is explosively bad for you. As previously noted as well, there is virtually zero surviving records from the first century AD. At best, we have general knowledge of some pretty basic facts at the time, we know about the emperors, we know about the wars, conquests, and revolts, we know about a few of the procurators and rulers, as well as some pretty good geography, language, the practices in life and religion. Aside from these things, information is indeed rare and scarce. The argument from silence only works if we have a source that we would to mention an event, but doesn’t. If someone wrote an extensive biography of Jesus but never mentioned any miracle claims, that would be problematic, because we would EXPECT such an extensive biography on Jesus to mention such supernatural claims if Christianity were true. If ancient historians from the first century were constantly mentioning all the miracle workers at the time, but all seem to for some reason exclude Jesus — that would be a problem. Of course, the reality is that the only single source interested in these supposed messiahs and miracle workers is the same one that also mentions Jesus and His miracles. None of this is up for debate, no historian in the world takes this argument seriously, unless you can produce an evidence-based response (which you have failed to do regarding this point) then this case is clearly closed.

        4. Final point. I will simply quote you and then laugh:

        “The early Christians never mention the rising of the dead, but they certain mention lots of other things about the cruxifiction. ”

        The earliest Christian source is Paul, and Paul fully mentions the rising of the dead, as do all the Gospels and earliest Christian writers. This couldn’t be more factually inaccurate.

      • No, SC, you only started claiming that my post was too long just on your last post. You are lying again, and a recording medium is no friend to that nonsense.
        Again, no, no one will do as you demand. You are bully trying to have your way. You have yet to debunk anything and no one has noticed you destroying anything. As always, it seems you have to make such claims since no one else will.

        Tacitus confirms nothing more than there were Christians and they believed certain things. Again, you admitted that you do not know where Tacitus got his information, so your claims have no basis. And wow, SC, nice lie that I said that you couldn’t use Tacitus’ testimony because of his religious views. Please do show where I said anything like that.:) You said this “Tacitus’ religion is not my own” when asked why you accept what he wrote about your religion and not accept the claims Tacitus makes about Emperor Vespasian doing miracles. But I’m getting plenty used to lies from you. Please do continue because it’s the best thing that could happen for my arguments.

        Let’s take a look at what Tacitus actually says: “Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.”

        So we have Christians, and someone called Christus who was killed by the romans. No miracles, no empty tomb, nothing about the essential events of the bible myth. Again, no one noticed the earthquake, the darkening sky, the walking dead. This is all he says in all of his annals. So at best we have a historical rabbi wannabee messiah, who is dead. Not the being you profess to worship at all.

        I dolike how you do your best to convince us that you know the intent and style of Tacitus’s writings so you can pretend that you know why that this historian missed all of those important parts of the bible you claim happened. And alas, for you, you did try to use Tacitus when you claimed you had evidence for the empty tomb, something quite magical. That’s quite a fail there, SC, but nice try.
        There are no extrabiblical sources that confirm the supernatural nonsense of the bible. Neither Josephus nor Thallus confirm that the bible nonsense happened. Let’s see what Josephus says: “Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king, desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrin without his consent.” – Antiquities of the Jews, book 20

        And then we have “About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.” Antiquities of the Jews, Book 8. This is considered a forgery, only appearing after the 4 century CE. The Antiquities was written 60 years after the supposed events; they are repeated stories from what was known about what Christians believed. Again, no more evidence for magical events than the claims of Tacitus that Vespasian healed people, the claims that Athena and Poseidon were present for the naming of Athens, etc.

        And again, Thallus is reported to mention a darkening of the sky. That is all that is said. No date that matches with any dates claimed by Chrisitans for their magical rising messiah. Then we have Julian Africanus saying that the darkness must have been an eclipse, and a Christian, claiming it couldn’t have been. All based on one claim of darkeness with no date ascribed. So, no reality at all, SC, just your attempts to bully others in to accepting your nonsense.

        You certainly mention the apocrypha but again, since most Christians don’t believe in them, why do you think anyone else should? What evidence do they contain, SC? I know they don’t, but since you claim they do, it’s up to you to provide it. Which book, SC and which chapter verse? Again, you refuse to support your claims.

        How about we go with the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, which has Little Jesus making clay birds come to life and also has him killing two children? Why that must be true, mustn’t it since you claim that these apocrypha are evidence for your messiah’s existence? We can also go with the Book of Mormon, which has JC hanging out with the indigenous American peoples, after he supposed rose. Surely those are true stories, aren’t they, SC? Or how about the Gospel of Nicodemus aka the Acts of Pilate? Those have great stories about JC in hell, etc.

        So, still waiting for you to show this evidence, SC. Tell me why I should believe the apocrypha when most Christians don’t. Tell me why I should accept claims written about Christian beliefs as evidence that the beliefs are true, when you don’t accept that same argument for other religions. I’m not “dodging” anything because all you have made are baseless claims. No need to dodge imaginary snowballs.

        As for Clement of Rome, well, even the Catholics can’t figure out if he’s second or third pope. There is a singular orignal document supposedly from him. There are stories in apocrypha that claim he found water magically but again, no evidence to support the story, just like there is no evidence to support that Heracles fought monsters. Christians also can’t agree on how he died. There is also the Clementine literature, which is interesting because it again shows that Christians did not agree on the nature of god or JC. What parts of any of these mention these miracles and how do we take them as evidence, SC since they are hundreds of years after the supposed events?

        Again, you try to create a strawman, when you lie and claim that I say something is false for the only reason that not all sources record every event. Unfortuantely for you, SC, that’s not my argument at all, and you are guilty of bearing false witness again. I guess it’s okay to ignore your bible when convenient, eh? Please do quote me because it supports my points. I’ll even quote myself. ““Again, you try to take refuge in the false claim that “virtually nothing in ancient history has survived for us to know what the ancients noticed”. Yep, that is true and shows that there is no reason for anyone to believe that there was a magical cruxifiction at all, since we don’t have the original stories at all. Unsuprisingly, you again get a fallacy wrong. It’s wrong because there isn’t silence, but even other gospels who never mentioned such a magical event, no legends about it in Jewish literature, nothing, about what should have been the most astonishing event in history to that point.”

        Again, you make false claims about “any and all historians” in your desperation. Why wouldn’t a Jewish author mention miracles, SC? Especially miracles that had the Jewish patriarchs getting out of their tombs and hanging out in Jerusalem? Why wouldn’t Romans? Oh, and again Josephus doesn’t mention miracles, that part is a forgery. We also have Josephus forgetting to mention the massacre of the innocents, which is odd since Jospehus wrote lots of stuff about how horrible Herod was, and shucks, just missed where he “When Herod realised that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old or under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.”. The author of Matthew certainly likes the drama.

        There was one historian who wrote something down about what Christians claimed. There is no reason to assume that the others knew but didn’t care to write it down. However, there is reason to assume that nothing happened so nothing was written, and the events that took place instead were written about. Again, that part in Josephus is considered a forgery. No explosions, not even a little fizzle.

        There are more than “virtually zero surviving records from the 1st century”, but there are relatively few. We know more than “basic facts”, so again, you try to create a false impression for the express purpose to mislead others aka you are lying. I love how you go on and on about what we know “few of the procurators and rulers, as well as some pretty good geography, language, the practices in life and religion.” It’s like watching the scene in the “Life of Brian” when the Jewish rebels are discussion what have the romans done for them. And at the end “All right… all right… but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order… what have the Romans done for us?”

        This has gone on so long that it’s time to say, you are an idiot, SC, just like Vic. Historians accept that Christians believed in miracles and reported that. What isn’t supported is a man/god rising from the grave, appearing to people, and the supposed miracles that were done. The gospels don’t agree on this story, and just like the story of exodus, there is no evidence for the bible’s claims. We also have you claiming that the bible is wrong, and insisting that the parts you don’t like weren’t translated correctly, but the parts you do like were, and they were translated by the same people.

        Yep, I certainly said exactly this ““The early Christians never mention the rising of the dead, but they certain mention lots of other things about the cruxifiction. ” Now where did Paul mention the rising of the dead, SC? Which early Christian mention this SC? Again, you made the positive claim, now it is up to you to support it. If one looks at 1 Corinthians, why doesn’t Paul mention the rising of the dead after the cruxifiction here, SC? It’s all about resurrection and not one peep about “The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people” – Matthew 27. Or even a peep about poor ol’ Lazarus. So, SC, please do tell us what Paul, and these others, supposedly said about the dead rising during the cruxifiction.

        IF you cannot support your claims, I fear it is about time to swat you under the refrigerator along with all of the other TrueChristians who have their very own magic decoder rings and who pick and choose from the bible, whilst claiming that theirs is the ONE TRUE WAY. 🙂

      • please do show where the tomb is in Jerusalem and that the cruxifiction and its attendant events, walking dead, major earthquake, darkening of the sun happened. Starting with a date would be great.

      • SC, you have claimed that people who don’t agree with you are terrorists. You have claimed that you would do violence to them. You have made claims about their actions that you have yet to support with evidence. You are a lovely Christian liar. You are of course always welcome to support your claims. As of yet, you have refused, hoping others will do your work for you.
        Until you can provide evidence, your opinions are worthless, SC. It is no surprise that you would try to claim a good argument is not a good argument, again without evidence, since it shows your religion to be based no nothing but myth. There are no “clear historical records” that there was a cruxifiction, much less an empty tomb. Again, you are welcome to present these historical records that you claim exist.

        I am enjoying the excuses you already present since you know that there are no historical records of an empty tomb nor where it is. Which is it, SC, “clear historical records telling us that there was an empty tomb” or “we’d have absolutely no idea if it was the actual tomb of Jesus”? You do need to watch which nonsense you are trying to spread.

        It is not “just a tomb” and Christians do not treat it like that. If it was “just a tomb” then why are there supposed “clear historical records” of this now unimportant tomb, SC? I don’t know if there are over 100 tombs that were for someone named Jesus (evidence for that please) but it does present a problem for your “clear historical evidence”. Please do write a blog on how you can’t decide if there is “clear historical evidence” or that it doesn’t matter if there is a tomb at all, SC. That should be great fun to read and see how your readers react.

        Nice link from a site calling itself biblicalarcheology but having nothing to do with actual archaeology. I would ask you to present which one you think is the best supported, but I know you are far too afraid to do so. David has not been shown to be a king, and certainly not the king described in the bible. All that has been discovered is a pair of references to a “house of david”, the supposed progenitor of this house never being shown to exist as a victor over anything. David’s supposed predecessor, Saul, is missing. David’s son Solomon is strangely missing, this supposed wisest man in the world who evidently did nothing that anyone noticed. Your link also repeatedly admits that the bible does not name many of these individuals and the names are assumed because dates are randomly assigned when convenient to events in the bible to actual historical figures. Again, no one has said that the bible does not hold some facts. The problem is that every essential event, every magical personage, has no evidence for it.

        Now, we do have some actual historical figures mentioned in the bible. If your argument is that since some known figures are mentioned, that means that your god exists, then you must agree that Athena and Poseidon exist since we do know where Athens is and myths mention Athens. They also mention Troy, etc which we know exist. Again, your myths are no different from others. One can also say that Spider-man must exist since the comics mention New York City.

        Paul never mentions an empty tomb. I do need to clarify this as I mean a singular tomb, since Paul says was buried and not how. As you say, one might interpret it that Paul implies it but Paul never says anything about events of the empty tomb and what supposedly happened; he goes from burial and was raised but nothing if it was bodily or not (see 1 Corinthians 15:45)and this was a contention in early Christianity. Why is this, SC? Paul also says “according to the scriptures”. Which ones are those since the gospels are dated after Paul’s letters? Paul’s claims of the events after the cruxifiction aren’t reflected in the gospels. “3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.” WLC has that Paul “may” have visited Jesus’ tomb but again, there is nothing to indicate that this occurred, or by your own argument, it could have occurred, if no one knew where it was. Interestingly, and I had forgotten this, Acts 13 says that the people who crucified JC buried him, disputing the claims in the gospels. If the author of Luke and Acts was the same, why the disparity?

        Again, Habermas collected opinions on a historical jesus, an itinerant rabbi and not the magical entity you supposedly worship, not an empty tomb. http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles/J_Study_Historical_Jesus_3-2_2005/J_Study_Historical_Jesus_3-2_2005.htm You have of course not provided any evidence for your claim that these surveyed papers shows that some “very strong majority” agreed on an empty tomb. I’ve given the link to Habermas’ research, SC, so you surely can find that information if it exists.

        You seem to again have no idea what scholarly peer-reviewed research is, SC. It is not people who believe as you do giving you a stamp of approval. Again, I have shown that there are more than a few Christians who disagree with Habermas’ claims and Craig’s claims. All we have are contesting myths, all without evidence for either theistic side. There again is no evidence for a empty tomb and you in fact have admitted that there is no way to identify one. It doesn’t matter what you’ve linked to if it is unsupported by evidence.

        Hmmm, you’ve now claimed that you never said that there was no debate about Habermas’ claims. Let’s see what you have said: “As we’ve seen, Habermas has published his findings on New Testament scholarship trends (that is completely uncontested by critics and deniers) that clearly shows an amazing majority of historians affirm the historical veracity of the empty tomb.” Shucks, SC, there your claim is in black and white. Thank you so very much for doubling down on your lies and giving me more evidence to support my position.

        Still waiting for you to put up what you think is so very important about WLC’s argument. It is up to you to do so, and it doesn’t require “summing up an entire paper”. You have yet to show that Craig proved otherwise sicne you have yet to put up any of the arguments of WLC that you find valid. Again, SC, I am not playing the game with a Christian who is too afraid of taking responsibility for citing what he finds valid about an apologist’s arguments. You choose to run away. I have pointed out that Craig has made a positive claim and has yet to support it. You’ve done a nice fail at trying to put the burden of proof on me.

        Hmmm, there is that problem you have with comprehension. I did not say that you spoke falsely about the AFA, SC. I have said that you have made so many false claims so far, why stop when it has to do with the AFA? The AFA is indeed a group that has discriminated against homosexuals, etc. And charities in Connecticut cannot do this per their rules. They also do no charitable work that benefits the categories that the Connecticut state employee charity specifies. They are asked to show that they do and that they are not discriminatory. You are such a sad little liar when it comes to your claim that the AFA hasn’t harassed any homosexuals. They have spent millions on trying to deny homosexuals equal rights. They have repeatedly harassed organizations that don’t agree with their particular version of Christianity e.g. their failed boycotts. They have this video called The Day They Kicked God Out of the Schools, that claims that school shooting are because people don’t agree with them. They have tried to make the bible the only book to be used in oathtaking, to prevent other theists from using their own holy books. They have claimed that no mosques should be built and that somehow Muslims aren’t covered by the First Amendment. They have tried to prevent gay-straight alliance clubs in schools, again harassing homosexuals by trying to get their rights annulled. One good thing, they have finally said that they no longer thing that homosexual activity should be illegal, though they support such laws in places like Russian and in African countries. Their spokesman Bryan Fischer repeatedly said it would be find for people to kidnap the children from same sex parents and keeping them in what he called “normal” homes. The AFA said some of his views were not agreed upon; they still employ him. They have called for the arrest of gay legislators, such as Jim Kolbe, because his state, Arizona still has laws on the books that have government involved in sex.

        So, please do defend these people, SC. And keep making false claims that a few minutes of searching can show to be nonsense.

        You tried to claim that WLC was asked by “top universities” to speak. That was a false statement, SC, made to try to claim that WLC has some academic chops, a classic appeal to authority fallacy. The truth is that Christian student organizations at these universities had him speak. You of course may keep repeating your false claim. You can also show where I’ve invoked “quadrillions of fallacies and strawmen, clear misrepresentations of Craig my own arguments and data” I’ll be waiting. I won’t require you to show “quadrillions” but a handful of each will do. Or are you making nonsense up again, SC?

        So, if a believer claims something happened in Jerusalem, it happened? That will make the Muslims quite happy since you’ve validated their claim of Mo on a magic horsie to be just as good as your claim of some magic man rising from the dead. Again, you may present your evidence here. You have provided nothing and expect others to do your work for you. I’m still waiting for the evidence for the exodus. What evidence do you find to be the most compelling? If you are unwilling to answer, then there is no reason to believe your claims.

        Still waiting for you to provide the name of that charity you claimed was feeding kids in Africa.

      • Of course, SC can’t actually support his claim. Again, we have a great example of a TrueChristian bearing false witness against others. It seems that SC has decided that “evil” means “doesn’t do what SC wants and shows SC to be terribly ignorant”.

      • >says I can’t support my claim
        >ignores previous posts of mine where I supported my claims on the exodus, shape of the Earth

        Are you trying to fish for more comments on your post by prolonging your defeat? It’s obvious the debate has been won already once you refused to look at the evidence. Any further responses of yours will be ignored if they do not address the evidence.

      • Still waiting for your evidence, SC. I have not once refused to look at what you have. I have indeed refused to bother with your blog, but that isn’t keeping you from cutting and pasting all of this supposedly wonderful evidence here.

        I suppose you must declare you won, SC, since no one else would notice this, eh? Thanks for complaining about commenting on my blog. Poor SC, I’m just holding you prisoner here, aren’t I? :chuckle:

      • I don’t need to tell my friends that I will hurt them if they don’t agree with me. If this gives you a “rush”, that is unfortunate. I’d rather have friends I don’t feel like I need to threaten and get my fun sledding with them if I need an adrenalin fix.

        Again, I’m still waiting for you to support your claims, SC. You have not shown any for anyone to “already see otherwise”. The bible repeatedly states that this god chooses people to be able to accept it, again in Romans 9, in Matthew 13, etc. We have entire sects of Christianity that say that this is the case, and they can cite verse after verse. At best, there are contradicting claims in the bible, and as usual each Christian wants to claim that theirs is the only “right” one, without any evidence. Please do share with us why I should believe your version and not theirs. You have refuted nothing, SC. And it’s hilarious that, if this is all somehow “irrelevant” why would you have had to refute anything? You do need to come up with excuses that don’t’ contradict each other. As has been demonstrated, there is nothing “irrelevant” to citing the verses of the bible that show Christians don’t agree on how one is saved.

        Yep, I certainly do call your views baseless opinions, just as I call the views of Christians and other theists who disagree with you baseless opinions. You all cite your holy books but unsurprisingly get vastly different “truths” that you claim are some magical revelation but have nothing to support that your version is correct. You may debate disagreements with Christians, and how well does that go, SC? Why don’t you accept their versions and not your own? You have tried to your best to ignore the disagreements when claiming your version is true with me, and have tried to claim that your bible supports the claim of free choice to obey this god. Again, that attempt at education doesn’t work so well with someone who was a Christian and who has read the bible, not accepting your baseless claims blindly.

        Hmmm, so if basing one’s conclusions on a presupposition, that makes people evil? Then every theist everywhere is evil by your definition. I’m still waiting for evidence that your version of your god exists, SC. If you can’t show this, then you have a presupposition. As for atheists having presuppositions, that isn’t the case, at least for me. I was a Christian, then slowly lost my faith since there is no evidence for the Christian god, and there is plenty of evidence that entirely different events happened instead of what is claimed in the bible. I investigated other sects of Christianity and then other religions. I followed the evidence, so sorry, you are wrong again; no presuppositions here.

        I can understand that your version of Christianity would insist that simply being an atheist is “evil” because we don’t obey you and your god made in your image. It’s hard to accept someone doesn’t find you special and can show you that you are terribly ignorant. Your claims of people being “evil” because they don’t agree with you is what I expect from a toddler who is having a tantrum if he doesn’t get what he wants. The mere existence of atheists and non-Christians make many Christians uncomfortable since it shows that their claims aren’t quite what they think.

        You can quote as many verses trying to call non-Christians “fools”. Didn’t JC say it was a bad thing to call someone a fool (matthew 5 is where you want to look)? Such contradictions, tsk. Funny how that other religions do the same about non-believers in them, and again, none of you have evidence to support your nonsense. Again, since reality shows that you are wrong, and people who don’t agree with you do plenty of good, you are again showing your ignorance, SC. If you do actually believe that no one but people who agree with you do good, you may want to stop using anything that was discovered or invented by an atheist or a theist who doesn’t/didn’t agree with you. However, I’m sure you’d find some reason to excuse your hypocrisy.

        Muslims are no more or less insane than Christians or anyone else, SC. It seems that you are desperate to attack anyone. Christianity did not magically invent most, or all, of the moral values we have today. Happily, we have left behind many of the moral values displayed in the bible, the insistence that someone is “evil” for not agreeing with some imaginary god, that killing people is okay if you make believe that you are better than then and your god said you could have it, etc. The golden rule, e.g. “do unto others” was around long before the supposed events in your bible. Compassion also existed long before Christians, SC. Neanderthals and other early humans were taking care of each other, so again your claims are simply lies told to try to make yourself feel superior. Many religions try same thing, playing pretend that they are the source of all morality and of course none of you have any evidence to support your conflicting claims.

        Again, there is no evidence for the Exodus. You have been asked to present any you think you have, but you have refused. There is no reason to bother with your blog if you can’t cut and paste something here. When was the exodus, SC? What year so we know where to look for evidence? Why did no one notice Egypt losing its entire army and a million people wandering around an area the size of Pennsylvania for 4 decades? You can also tell me when the Noachian flood was too, since Christians also don’t agree on that.

        As has been noted, you are again lying when you falsely try to equate my disinterest in reading your blog with refusing to look at evidence. You have been repeatedly asked to post it here. It’s no surprise why you won’t. I do agree that your lie is indeed circular reasoning, invented by you as a false accusation.

        Hmm, what always works when Christians try to prove “it”, SC? And where is this evidence that shows that the bible says that the earth is a sphere? Again, you may present your evidence here, on the comments of my blog where you chose to come and make false claims. I am waiting and not pushing away any offer of yours since again, you have yet to present your evidence.

        It seems you have no idea what a non-sequitur. A non-sequitur is something that is not related to the topic being discussed. Now it is amusing that you would claim that information that demonstrates that interference by a supposedly omnipotent and omniscience being would eliminate free will would be not related to the topic of how a omnipotent and omniscient god relates to free will. It’s even more funny when you insist that I read “philosophy”. SC, do you know that there are many different types of philosophical ideas and they don’t all agree with you?
        I do like your idea that your god is controlled by the actions of humans “God’s foreknowledge is determined by what we choose to do with our free will.” That’s amazing since your bible says that all is god’s will “Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the LORD’s purpose that prevails.”, Romans 8:28, etc and everything is predetermined i.e. that this god already knows, not “will know”. Again, your bible contradicts you, SC.

        Considering your need for me to point out verses that you claimed did not exist, I have no reason to believe that you have read the new testament or the old. You have yet to show that you have any evidence for your claims or that I have not maintained my position and presented evidence for mine. Please do show where this has occurred, SC. It should not be hard if it is true, correct?

      • ” people fruitful to the Word of God will hear and know what Jesus speaks, but the wicked will not hear and not know.”

        hmmm, wasn’t JC sent here to talk to the wicked? What’s the point to preach to the choir?

      • “hmmm, wasn’t JC sent here to talk to the wicked? What’s the point to preach to the choir? ”

        The wicked that are receptive to the Word of God will HEAR Jesus — the wicked indulging in their sin and neglecting the truth in front of them will surely be destroyed.

      • Quick question, SC – you spoke about your grades ‘exploding’ in middle/high school – was that just a few years ago, by any chance?

      • That’s what I hoped to establish, Club, which would explain his youthful zeal and tiresome “I know better than you”. . . not that all 20-somethings are like that, but fundamentalist Christians do it better than most. 🙂 He’s obviously puffed-up with his mentors’ (Greg Laurie, along with Chuck Smith and that odious Mark Driscoll, I wonder?) Calvinistic outlook.
        He might do some research and actually learn to think for himself; we shall see.

      • ah, but you said the wicked weren’t receptive. All you have done is try to retcon what you actually said. Amazing how this works with you. SC. we get this “‘fruitful’ is receptive — people willing to hear the Word of God, to accept it and believe in it.” and this “people fruitful to the Word of God will hear and know what Jesus speaks, but the wicked will not hear and not know.”

        Please do decide what nonsense you do want to try to spread.

      • ah, and my husband, who was raised on a farm as I was, asks why this farmer, aka God, doesn’t fix the bad parts of his fields and gather the seed that was wasted on the path and plant it where it will grow? It’s most curious that humans can figure things out and this god can’t seem to.

      • Again, SC, Christians disagree with each other. If you can’t convince each other, why should anyone else believe your claims? I’m waiting for this evidence that shows that Christians who don’t agree with your version to be wrong.

        As for you shredding anything, a quick read over your blog shows that hasn’t been the case yet. Perhaps you will in the future, but that is not likely if you just repeat failed claims again and again. As always, you are more than welcome to show me the arguments you find compelling and we can discuss them. I do note that you haven’t posted what you thought was so fabulous about the video that you posted the link for.

        I’m still waiting for you to show how Romans 9 says anything about your god hardening the people who are “already” evil. Which verses do this, SC? If you cannot provide them, there is no reason to believe you. I do not care if something is true as far as you are concerned; your baseless opinion is meaningless and no more valid than any other theists, Christian or not.

        Unsurprisingly, it seems that you have not read Exodus, for your claims about it are wrong. The bible does speak about the hardening of someone’s heart and it repeatedly says it is this god who does the hardening, even when someone is going to do what is asked of them. You make the claim that the pharaoh “had rejected the word so many times before”. Where does the bible indicate this, SC? If you cannot supply the verses, it would appear that you’ve just invented this. Now, I can show that you are wrong again in your claims.

        Exodus 4: “21 The LORD said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, “Let my son go, so he may worship me.” But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.’”

        So, we have this god intentionally preventing P from believing in his miracles *and* then saying he will kill his son for this god making him unable to accept the miracles.

        Exodus 7: “2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it.”

        Exodus 8: “15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.” And “32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.”

        As the Lord had said back in Chapter 7. So again, the Pharoah did not harden his own heart.

        Exodus 9: “12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.” And “32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.”

        Exodus 10:1 “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD.” And “20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.”

        Exodus 11: ““Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you—so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt.” 10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.” And we have where this god also controls the minds of the Egyptians as an added bonus.

        Exodus 14: “4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” So the Israelites did this.”

        And then we have another circumstance where this god hardens hearts to get its way – Joshua 11: “20 For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.”

        Are there a couple of places where people do harden their own hearts in the bible? Yep, we can see that there is a definite difference between one act and the other. What we end up with is that God is the actor in the vast majority of cases.

        So we see that the bible does not agree with you, SC. If your god didn’t repeatedly say he was interfering, then you might have a chance, but when your god says he hardens the heart in every case, your claims fail. I can read what the bible says. I am not the one trying to pretend it doesn’t say what it does. I’ll be waiting to see if you can support what you claim as the “truths of the bible”.

      • “Garbage”

        Or maybe it’s because you are just a stubborn, pompous bunghole with no life who wouldn’t even bother to look or just ignore and act like you know “better” than them, but you don’t, you’re just condesending who is never an expert just one of those generic militant atheists.

      • VGP, if you are just going to act like a 7 year old, and call names, you’ll be removed from this blog. But I’m happy to allow at least one of your precious little rants to show just how wonderfully Christian you are. You are expected to explain your claims. You get once chance, VGP, to explain your claims as I have cut and pasted below.

        “Ron, in a view, those where talking about sometime in the future that the cosmos would go cluster.

        “More absurdities” This could happen to some planets.”

        “You’re argument just proves how fallacious it is, Carmen.”

        “Don’t give us Strawman”

        “This isn’t a mere answer.”

        Explain how something is a strawman; if you can’t, I’m guessing that we have one more TrueChristian who has heard the term but has no idea what it is. Explain how supposedly fallacious Carmen’s answer is.

        And the cosmos isn’t going “cluster” whatever the heck that means. Explain.

      • “To make a long story short, today not a single mainstream biblical scholar or archaeologist any longer upholds Biblical Archaeology’s “Conquest Model.” Not one. Various theories of indigenous origins [for the people of Israel] prevail, in which case there is neither room nor need for a Biblical Exodus — at least of that [Biblical] proportion.” (~ William Dever, UC San Diego Exodus Conference, June 1, 2013)

  17. Here are links to the verses that SC can’t quite manage to look at. I used NRSV, but I’m not sure what kind of Christian he is. I’m going to guess he is a conservative Roman Catholic, considering how he references the early Christian “fathers” on his blog.

    Proverbs 16:4 “The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble”
    Psalm 65:4 “Happy are those whom you choose and bring near to live in your courts”
    Matt 24:31 “31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
    Luke 18:7 “And will not God grant justice to his chosen ones who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long in helping them?”
    John 10:25-28 “Jesus answered, ‘I have told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name testify to me; 26 but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand.”
    Acts 15:17-18 “so that all other peoples may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles over whom my name has been called.Thus says the Lord, who has been making these things 18 known from long ago”
    Romans 8:28 “We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.”
    Romans 9
    Romans 11:2 “God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.” And “The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,‘God gave them a sluggish spirit, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
    Ephesians 1:3-5 “just as he chose us in Christ[a] before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. 5 He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will,” and 11 “In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will, 12 so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, might live for the praise of his glory.”
    2 Tim 1:8-10“8 Do not be ashamed, then, of the testimony about our Lord or of me his prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel, relying on the power of God, 9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”
    1 Peter1:2 “who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:”
    1 Thes 1:4 “For we know, brothers and sisters[a] beloved by God, that he has chosen you,”
    2 thes 2:13 “But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters[a] beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits[b] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.” I rather like 2 Thessalonians since it has your god intentionally deceiving people. (verses 11)
    Rev 13:8 “and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered”

    In case it’s needed, here’s a link to the merriam webster dictionary. A teacher, eithr 5th grade or 7th grade, always recommended it.

    • It’s not cluster, and I thought it’s you who’s you been acting like a little kid.

      JZ, you pretty much are taking it out of context, kinda like flat Earthers would take other quotes on Earth out of context.

      • Yes, context.

        “The period of the patriarchs, exodus, conquest, or judges as devised by the writers of Scriptures never existed,” Robert Coote, Senior Research Professor of Hebrew Exegesis at San Francisco’s Theological Seminary.

        “The Genesis and Exodus accounts are a fiction,” Niels Peter Lemche of the University of Copenhagen.

        “The actual evidence concerning the Exodus resembles the evidence for the unicorn,” Baruch Halpern, Professor of Jewish Studies of Pennsylvania State University.

        “Currently there is broad agreement among archaeologists and Bible scholars that there is no historical basis for the narratives of the Patriarchs, the Exodus from Egypt, and the conquest of Canaan, nor any archaeological evidence to make them think otherwise.” (Hareetz, 2014)

        “Defending a rabbi in the 21st century for saying the Exodus story isn’t factual is like defending him for saying the Earth isn’t flat. It’s neither new nor shocking to most of us that the Earth is round or that the Torah isn’t a history book dictated to Moses by God on Mount Sinai,” (Rabbi Steven Leder)

        “The patriarchs’ acts are legendary stories, we did not sojourn in Egypt or make an exodus, we did not conquer the land. Those who take an interest have known these facts for years,” (Professor Ze’ev Herzog, Tel Aviv University.)

        [The Pentateuch is an] “extended metaphor” ( Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson, Dean of the Ziegler School of Rabbinic Studies at the University of Judaism)

        “The Pentateuch is the Jewish Mythology. My duty as a Rabbi is to interpret the Bible and consider it as my Mythology, as the founding story of the people of Israel, of course not to take it literally… it is not a book of facts, but a myth.” (Rabbi Nardy Grün)

        “The Pentateuch is filled with wonderful mythology of our beginnings.” (Rabbi Robert Schreibman)

        “The Torah is a piece of human literature. Its stories are fictional and that is how I teach them” (Rabbi, Jeffrey Falick)

        “The actual evidence concerning the Exodus resembles the evidence for the unicorn,” (Baruch Halpern, Professor of Jewish Studies of Pennsylvania State University.)

        “We looked for evidence for the Exodus in the Sinai Desert and found there was nothing in the Sinai Desert. We looked at the Patriarch stories and the times in which they supposedly lived, and it didn’t seem to match. Then we looked at the stories of the Patriarchs in the time they were apparently written, historically, and that matched much better.” (Rabbi Adam Chalom)

        “The story of Abraham has less to do with 1800 BCE, when Abraham presumably lived, than with 700 BCE when his story was created.” (Rabbi Sherwin T Wine)

        “The Torah is not a book we turn to for historical accuracy … The rejection of the Bible as literally true is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis.” (Rabbi, David Wolpe)

        “The fact is that not one shred of direct archaeological evidence has been found for Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob or the 400-plus years the children of Israel sojourned in Egypt. The same is true for their miraculous exodus from slavery” (Kevin D. Miller, Christianity Today)

      • Again, you make no sense at all, Vic, and even more amusing, this shows as a response to yourself. You are expected to support your claims. If someone is supposedly wrong, then show how. If you think you are right, show how. If you cannot, then your posts will be trashed, being nothing more than a poor Christian making baseless claims and lying.

      • if it is not “cluster”, and that is what you wrote ““Ron, in a view, those where talking about sometime in the future that the cosmos would go cluster.” , then what is it? Please support your claims. No one cares what you think, Vic, only what you can support.

      • Don’t you ever think that’s true Christians are stupid. You in the other hand would just ignore like a Flat Earther.

        And as for you, it’s because you think that assumed that they are right or so, and still.

      • I know that many TrueChristians(tm) are very ignorant, Vic. It is required for them to retain their faith that is based on nonsense.

        You also make no sense at all. You seem to have problems with either typing or simple grammar. What is “You in the other hand would just ignore like a Flat Earther”. This is meaningless. and this, well, this is pathetic. “And as for you, it’s because you think that assumed that they are right or so, and still.”

        Is English your first language, for it doesn’t seem so?

      • You “know” my ass, and True Atheists like you would say you’re “smarter”, we’re “stupid”. I don’t see any actual scholars would agree that faith is literally based on “nonsense”.

        Uh yes, English was my first language.

      • Uh yes, English was my first language.

        Really?

        Really?

        Were you homeschooled by a long eared Jerboa?

        And I think you meant to write “Uh yes, English IS my first language.”

  18. Pingback: Not So Polite Dinner Conversation – 960,000 tons of what? | Club Schadenfreude

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